Rationality in the Trinity

bmz, the very fact that you have to ask who this Second Person is would appear to disclose that you are not really familiar with the Christian Trinitarian doctrine.

Muslims, however, call this Second Person, the Word; He was incarnated as Christ. 

I'm afraid you are mixing up the concept of substance and person. Perhaps it would help you if you were to study the declarations of the Council of Nicea and Chalcedon.

Athanasius,

What was decided at the Council after 365 years is a different story. Unitarians were crushed and kicked out. Trinity or a triune God was the thought and analysis of some men.

Could you please tell me if Jesus himself taught in his own words about a Triune God? Did he explain Trinity? Did he even utter the word Trinity? Please quote me one instance from the NT if he did that.

BMZ

Thanks, Atanasius for writing:

"bmz, the term "trinity" is not found in the Bible.  It is a concept.  The term "soteriology" is not found in the Bible, it is a doctrinal conept.  Trinity is used to define a doctrinal position.  Also, you might be interested to know that the word "Bible" is not found in the Bible, but we use it to designate the 66 Books of Scripture."

That's why I asked because I did not see Trinity or the doctrine being taught or preached by Jesus anywhere in the Bible.

BMZ

Athanasius wrote: Muslims, however, call this Second Person, the Word; He was incarnated as Christ.

Athanasius, this is so not true.  We do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) was the 'Word' of Allah.  The 'Word' of Allah is the Holy Spirit which is not a separate entity than Allah.  Allah gives the Holy Spirit (His Word, His Divine Revelation) to whom He pleases.  Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet who was given Divine Revelation (the Word, the Holy Spirit) of Allah while he was in the womb of his blessed mother Mary.  HOWEVER, we do not believe that this makes him (i.e., Jesus (pbuh)) anything more than a prophet who was different than other prophets (pbut) in that he received the Holy Spirit while in his mother's womb.  That is, we don�t believe him to be a divine entity in any way shape or form.  Prophets are messengers�servants of God.   It truly is simply and if you really take the time to read the New Testament out side of the �Black Box� of Christian doctrine, you will see that Jesus (pbuh) himself repeatedly say he was nothing more than that.

Also, if you read the Bible�the Old Testament�beginning with Genesis, Chapter 1, you will see that Jesus (pbuh) was not the Word of God.  But rather, the Word was the Spirit�Allah created all that is merely by revealing His Word.  It is so clear�He said, and it was�over and over and over again in Genesis.  How can Jesus (pbuh) be the Word???  That is simply non-sense.  He was created in the womb of his mother, Mary, because Allah commanded him to exist (God willed him into existence just as He did all other things in His creation), and then He bestowed upon him the Holy Spirit which is His Divine Revelation.  This Divine Revelation is no different than the Divine Revelation which He revealed to all of His other prophets (pbut).  The only different between the prophets (pbut) is the way in which they each received the Divine Revelation and the abilities which Allah bestowed upon them.  Allah did this in accordance to what He knew they would need in order to do the job He wanted them to do.  It is really quite simply and contains none of the contradictions or problem the concept of the Trinity is saturated with.  BTW, Muslims believe that the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) is in Jannah (Paradise, Heaven) at this time and that he will return to earth just as Christians do.  However, we believe that he ascended to Jannah without dying.

With respect to your �water� analogy, it simply doesn�t work and no matter what you say, it will not work.  First of all, it is insulting to Allah.  There is no way you can pull off your analogy without �splitting up� the substance you want us to pretend is Allah.  Your theory/analogy is like that of a little boy who pulls the wings off of a butterfly and say, �this is the Son��then pulls off the legs and says, �this is the Holy Spirit��and then the holds the body up and says, �this is the father�.  But really all you have is a horrible mess that once was something beautiful. 

If we take you analogy seriously, it still leaves us with a problem.  The only way you can have all three in existence at the same time is to have three tubes of water because you can�t have all three forms at the same time by having all of the water in the same tube.  If you say you are taking one tube of water and then dividing it into three tubes of water which you then will turn into each form at the same time, then you have the problem of dividing up Allah�that simply is not the concept of God that He revealed to us in Holy Scripture. 

Also, if we take your analogy seriously, we have to accept that God doesn�t exist unless He is manifested in all three of these forms at once.  If He is not the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, then He simply is nothing.  Or is there some water left over?  If so, what is it?  And what form does it take?  How is this possible???? 

The truth of the matter is that God doesn�t need any from to exist, He simply is.  And if we take your position seriously, we would have to accept that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit existed from the beginning since without those forms there would be no God.  If this is true, how were they manifested?  Was there a creator behind the creator?   Do not the terms father and son imply that the former must come into existence prior to the latter?  If this is the case, then there is no way that the Son was always with the Father�which would imply that the Son is not the Word which was there from the beginning as you have said it is. 

As you can see, your view simply can�t rid itself of serious problems.  There is truly only one way to rid your concept of God of these horrible problems.  And that is to see God in His true light.  That is, to accept God as being ONLY ONE GOD�ALLAH�THE GOD.  To accept that the Holy Spirit is not a separate entity from Allah, but rather, It is God�s Divine Revelation which He bestows upon those He wills It to be bestowed upon and that He does so in many ways�as He wills.  And last, to accept that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of Allah and not God in the flesh. 

PAZ

Sister Khadija