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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peacemaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:02am

Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so?

Peace

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muhammad77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 4:07am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Originally posted by Muhammad77 Muhammad77 wrote:

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

Muhammad77

This is what Mary the mother of Jesus says in the Quran (66:12):

"She recognized the truth of the Words of her Lord and of his Books".

Those words of Mary prove that at the time of Jesus the Books of God were still uncorrupted.
So when and by whom were those books corrupted?

Yes, the Injeel was uncorrupted at the time when it was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and it has to be. It is logical that it was uncorrupted at that time. When Allah reveals a Holy Book to his Prophet, it is pure and in its original form. As I said, we Muslims believe in the Holy books when they were only in their original form.

But later as time progressed, as years passed by, many people corrupted these books.

So, finally, Allah revealed His final word The Holy Qur'an to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and Allah has promised that Allah will preserve this book from corruption till the Day of Judgement.

So now, The Qur'an is the only Holy Book to be believed in and followed, Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the only Prophet to be followed and Allah is The True Lord to be worshipped and to be believed in.

 

Muhammad77 your above post especially the beginning premise of yor comment is quite wrong. you said:

>>>>Yes, the Injeel was uncorrupted at the time when it was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and it has to be.<<<<

Notice the bold mark in your comment. Now if God sent jesus as truth to the Jews at the time why would God give Jesus a corruptable book?

Every zealous follow of the Abrahamic faith, especially literalist orthodox Muslims believes that paradise somehow is somewhat exclusive to Muslims as if we have the sole truth of the Almighty and the others due not. The TRUTH is not every single word in the Bible and Torah is corrupted. If so, then why do Muslim scholars quote from a cuorrupted doctrine? Such as the bible to prove points, Why would Muslim scholars try to prove  the prophet's foretelling in The Bible if its such a corrupted doctrine? The TRUTH is, the bible is not totally corrupted however I hope we can distinguish between the meaning of the Word and the Written Word.

As the Qur'an notes and I quote imperfectly that "Not all of the People of the Book are the same." TRUTH is our doctrines 9if broken down to its basic form) is mentioning the same TRUTH.

 

Yes, the entire Injeel is NOT corrupted. But some parts or verses are still there in there original form. We Muslims do not believe in such Holy books which have the slightest of corruption. Allah did NOT give Jesus (pbuh) a corrupted book. Whenever Allah reveals a book to His Prophet, it is pure and in its original form. But there are some mischievious people on earth who made changes in these Holy books. So Allah finally revealed His final word The Holy Qur'an to the final messenger Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Allah has said that like the previous Holy Books which got corrupted, Allah will not let this happen with The Holy Qur'an as it is His final word to mankind. Allah has challenged that nobody can produce even a like of a verse of The Qur'an. Allah has said that Allah will protect The Holy Qur'an from corruption till the Day Of Judgement.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muhammad77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 5:19am

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:


Before asking people to believe in the Quran you must show that the Quran is worth believing in it.

We should NOT be talking of 'worth' when it comes to the true word of Allah.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 8:30am

Peacemaker


Quote Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so


10-64)"l� tabd�la likalim�ti ll�hi" "There is no change in the Words of Allah"

6-34)"wal� mubaddila likalim�ti ll�hi" "No one can modify the Words of Allah"

There is also the answer from logic: if Allah is all-powerful and does not want the Quran to be tampered with, why would he have let the other Books to be tampered with?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muhammad77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

Peacemaker


Quote Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so


10-64)"l� tabd�la likalim�ti ll�hi" "There is no change in the Words of Allah"

6-34)"wal� mubaddila likalim�ti ll�hi" "No one can modify the Words of Allah"

There is also the answer from logic: if Allah is all-powerful and does not want the Quran to be tampered with, why would he have let the other Books to be tampered with?


Allah has recorded everything.

Allah decreed that The Qur'an would be His final true word to the entire mankind. Allah decreed that Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam would be the final messenger.

Allah knows that which we know not. Allah is The All-Knower of all the things. Allah is The All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. We cannot question Allah. Allah The Most High does as He wills.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 10:36am

Cyril,

From you: "Before I give you my opinion could you be clearer and explain what do you mean by "Christian Old testament"."

Good question, Cyril. The Christian Bible has two parts. One is the Old Testament and the other is the New Testament.

The Jews DO NOT ACCEPT the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. They go to the extent that they even do not read the Old Testament of the Christian Bible.

That is why, in my discussions, I make it a point to differentiate between the Jewish Holy Scriptures and the Old Testament of Christians.

From you, Cyril: "Those who have written the New Testament in Greek used a slightly different Old testament called the Septuagint, which is a Greek translation of the Tanakh. Instead of translating directly from the Tanakh they used the already existing Greek version."

You have already provided the answer. The Jews use only the Hebrew, not Greek. Their Scriptures were even there far before the Greek language evolved. That slight difference, that you mentioned above, has made a huge difference in the meaning and interpretation of the Jewish Scriptures by the Christians.

If I may ask, who should know the Jewish Scriptures better? The Jews or the Christians? Definitely, the answer would be the Jews! Neither the Greeks nor the Christian writers would take precedence over the Jews.

That is why I suggested reading only Isaiah of the Jewish Scriptures and requested comparing with the Isaiah in the OT (not accepted by the Jews). For example, everything and every suffering that is mentioned about Israel the Servant, it is used to foretell the suffering of Jesus. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peacemaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 August 2006 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

Peacemaker


Quote Cyril: "Besides Allah says in the Quran that he does not allow his Scriptures to be corrupted."

Can you please quote verse in Qur'an that says so


10-64)"l� tabd�la likalim�ti ll�hi" "There is no change in the Words of Allah"

6-34)"wal� mubaddila likalim�ti ll�hi" "No one can modify the Words of Allah"

There is also the answer from logic: if Allah is all-powerful and does not want the Quran to be tampered with, why would he have let the other Books to be tampered with?


010.062
YUSUFALI: Behold! verily on the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve;
PICKTHAL: Lo! verily the friends of Allah are (those) on whom fear (cometh) not, nor do they grieve?
SHAKIR: Now surely the friends of Allah-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

010.063
YUSUFALI: Those who believe and (constantly) guard against evil;-
PICKTHAL: Those who believe and keep their duty (to Allah).
SHAKIR: Those who believe and guarded (against evil):

010.064
YUSUFALI: For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.
PICKTHAL: Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world and in the Hereafter - There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph.
SHAKIR: They shall have good news in this world's life and in the hereafter; there is no changing the words of Allah; that is the mighty achievement.

010.065
YUSUFALI: Let not their speech grieve thee: for all power and honour belong to Allah: It is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).
PICKTHAL: And let not their speech grieve thee (O Muhammad). Lo! power belongeth wholly to Allah. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
SHAKIR: And let not their speech grieve you; surely might is wholly Allah's; He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

010.066
YUSUFALI: Behold! verily to Allah belong all creatures, in the heavens and on earth. What do they follow who worship as His "partners" other than Allah? They follow nothing but fancy, and they do nothing but lie.
PICKTHAL: Lo! is it not unto Allah that belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and whosoever is in the earth? Those who follow aught instead of Allah follow not (His) partners. They follow only a conjecture, and they do but guess.
SHAKIR: Now, surely, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and they do not (really) follow any associates, who call on others besides Allah; they do not follow (anything) but conjectures, and they only lie.

010.067
YUSUFALI: He it is That hath made you the night that ye may rest therein, and the day to make things visible (to you). Verily in this are signs for those who listen (to His Message).
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath appointed for you the night that ye should rest therein and the day giving sight. Lo! herein verily are portents for a folk that heed.
SHAKIR: He it is Who made for you the night that you might rest in it, and the day giving light; most surely there are signs in it for a people who would hear.

010.068
YUSUFALI: They say: "Allah hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
PICKTHAL: They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a son - Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
SHAKIR: They say: Allah has taken a son (to Himself)! Glory be to Him: He is the Self-sufficient: His is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth; you have no authority for this; do you say against Allah what you do not know?

010.069
YUSUFALI: Say: "Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper."
PICKTHAL: Say: Verily those who invent a lie concerning Allah will not succeed.
SHAKIR: Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful.

This way the meaning of 10: 64 becomes clear that Allah's promise to His true servants will never change. This has nothing to do with corruption in Scriptures.

006.024
YUSUFALI: Behold! how they lie against their own souls! But the (lie) which they invented will leave them in the lurch.
PICKTHAL: See how they lie against themselves, and (how) the thing which they devised hath failed them!
SHAKIR: See how they lie against their own souls, and that which they forged has passed away from them.

006.025
YUSUFALI: Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients."
PICKTHAL: Of them are some who listen unto thee, but We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. If they saw every token they would not believe therein; to the point that, when they come unto thee to argue with thee, the disbelievers say: This is naught else than fables of the men of old.
SHAKIR: And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of the ancients.

006.026
YUSUFALI: Others they keep away from it, and themselves they keep away; but they only destroy their own souls, and they perceive it not.
PICKTHAL: And they forbid (men) from it and avoid it, and they ruin none save themselves, though they perceive not.
SHAKIR: And they prohibit (others) from it and go far away from it, and they only bring destruction upon their own souls while they do not perceive.

006.027
YUSUFALI: If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with the Fire! They will say: "Would that we were but sent back! Then would we not reject the signs of our Lord, but would be amongst those who believe!"
PICKTHAL: If thou couldst see when they are set before the Fire and say: Oh, would that we might return! Then would we not deny the revelations of our Lord but we would be of the believers!
SHAKIR: And could you see when they are made to stand before the fire, then they shall say: Would that we were sent back, and we would not reject the communications of our Lord and we would be of the believers.

006.028
YUSUFALI: Yea, in their own (eyes) will become manifest what before they concealed. But if they were returned, they would certainly relapse to the things they were forbidden, for they are indeed liars.
PICKTHAL: Nay, but that hath become clear unto them which before they used to hide. And if they were sent back they would return unto that which they are forbidden. Lo! they are liars.
SHAKIR: Nay, what they concealed before shall become manifest to them; and if they were sent back, they would certainly go back to that which they are forbidden, and most surely they are liars.

006.029
YUSUFALI: And they (sometimes) say: "There is nothing except our life on this earth, and never shall we be raised up again."
PICKTHAL: And they say: There is naught save our life of the world, and we shall not be raised (again).
SHAKIR: And they say: There is nothing but our life of this world, and we shall not be raised.

006.030
YUSUFALI: If thou couldst but see when they are confronted with their Lord! He will say: "Is not this the truth?" They will say: "Yea, by our Lord!" He will say: "Taste ye then the penalty, because ye rejected Faith."
PICKTHAL: If thou couldst see when they are set before their Lord! He will say: Is not this real? They will say: Yea, verily, by our Lord! He will say: Taste now the retribution for that ye used to disbelieve.
SHAKIR: And could you see when they are made to stand before their Lord. He will say: Is not this the truth? They will say: Yea! by our Lord. He will say: Taste then the chastisement because you disbelieved.

006.031
YUSUFALI: Lost indeed are they who treat it as a falsehood that they must meet Allah,- until on a sudden the hour is on them, and they say: "Ah! woe unto us that we took no thought of it"; for they bear their burdens on their backs, and evil indeed are the burdens that they bear?
PICKTHAL: They indeed are losers who deny their meeting with Allah until, when the Hour cometh on them suddenly, they cry: Alas for us, that we neglected it! They bear upon their backs their burdens. Ah, evil is that which they bear!
SHAKIR: They are losers indeed who reject the meeting of Allah; until when the hour comes upon them all of a sudden they shall say: O our grief for our neglecting it! and they shall bear their burdens on their backs; now surely evil is that which they bear.

006.032
YUSUFALI: What is the life of this world but play and amusement? But best is the home in the hereafter, for those who are righteous. Will ye not then understand?
PICKTHAL: Naught is the life of the world save a pastime and a spot. Better far is the abode of the Hereafter for those who keep their duty (to Allah). Have ye then no sense?
SHAKIR: And this world's life is naught but a play and an idle sport and certainly the abode of the hereafter is better for those who guard (against evil); do you not then understand?

006.033
YUSUFALI: We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah, which the wicked contemn.
PICKTHAL: We know well how their talk grieveth thee, though in truth they deny not thee (Muhammad) but evil-doers flout the revelations of Allah.
SHAKIR: We know indeed that what they say certainly grieves you, but surely they do not call you a liar; but the unjust deny the communications of Allah.

006.034
YUSUFALI: Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.
PICKTHAL: Messengers indeed have been denied before thee, and they were patient under the denial and the persecution till Our succour reached them. There is none to alter the decisions of Allah. Already there hath reached thee (somewhat) of the tidings of the messengers (We sent before).
SHAKIR: And certainly messengers before you were rejected, but they were patient on being rejected and persecuted until Our help came to them; and there is none to change the words of Allah, and certainly there has come to you some information about the messengers.

006.035
YUSUFALI: If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?). If it were Allah's will, He could gather them together unto true guidance: so be not thou amongst those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience)!
PICKTHAL: And if their aversion is grievous unto thee, then, if thou canst, seek a way down into the earth or a ladder unto the sky that thou mayst bring unto them a portent (to convince them all)! - If Allah willed, He could have brought them all together to the guidance - So be not thou among the foolish ones.

SHAKIR: And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant.

006.036
YUSUFALI: Those who listen (in truth), be sure, will accept: as to the dead, Allah will raise them up; then will they be turned unto Him.
PICKTHAL: Only those can accept who hear. As for the dead, Allah will raise them up; then unto Him they will be returned.
SHAKIR: Only those accept who listen; and (as to) the dead, Allah will raise them, then to Him they shall be returned.

006.037
YUSUFALI: They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them understand not.
PICKTHAL: They say: Why hath no portent been sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Lo! Allah is Able to send down a portent. But most of them know not.
SHAKIR: And they say: Why has not a sign been sent down to him from his Lord? Say: Surely Allah is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know.

006.038
YUSUFALI: There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
PICKTHAL: There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.
SHAKIR: And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered.

006.039
YUSUFALI: Those who reject our signs are deaf and dumb,- in the midst of darkness profound: whom Allah willeth, He leaveth to wander: whom He willeth, He placeth on the way that is straight.
PICKTHAL: Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom Allah will sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path.
SHAKIR: And they who reject Our communications are deaf and dumb, in utter darkness; whom Allah pleases He causes to err and whom He pleases He puts on the right way.

006.040
YUSUFALI: Say: "Think ye to yourselves, if there come upon you the wrath of Allah, or the Hour (that ye dread), would ye then call upon other than Allah?- (reply) if ye are truthful!
PICKTHAL: Say: Can ye see yourselves, if the punishment of Allah come upon you or the Hour come upon you, (calling upon other than Allah)? Do ye then call (for help) to any other than Allah? (Answer that) if ye are truthful.
SHAKIR: Say: Tell me if the chastisement of Allah should overtake you or the hour should come upon you, will you call (on others) besides Allah, if you are truthful?

006.041

YUSUFALI: "Nay,- On Him would ye call, and if it be His will, He would remove (the distress) which occasioned your call upon Him, and ye would forget (the false gods) which ye join with Him!"
PICKTHAL: Nay, but unto Him ye call, and He removeth that because of which ye call unto Him, if He will, and ye forget whatever partners ye ascribed unto Him.
SHAKIR: Nay, Him you call upon, so He clears away that for which you pray if He pleases and you forget what you set up (with Him).

006.042
YUSUFALI: Before thee We sent (messengers) to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility.
PICKTHAL: We have sent already unto peoples that were before thee, and We visited them with tribulation and adversity, in order that they might grow humble.
SHAKIR: And certainly We sent (messengers) to nations before you then We seized them with distress and affliction in order that they might humble themselves.

006.043
YUSUFALI: When the suffering reached them from us, why then did they not learn humility? On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them.
PICKTHAL: If only, when Our disaster came on them, they had been humble! But their hearts were hardened and the devil made all that they used to do seem fair unto them!
SHAKIR: Yet why did they not, when Our punishment came to them, humble themselves? But their hearts hardened and the Shaitan made what they did fair-seeming to them.

006.044
YUSUFALI: But when they forgot the warning they had received, We opened to them the gates of all (good) things, until, in the midst of their enjoyment of Our gifts, on a sudden, We called them to account, when lo! they were plunged in despair!
PICKTHAL: Then, when they forgot that whereof they had been reminded, We opened unto them the gates of all things till, even as they were rejoicing in that which they were given, We seized them unawares, and lo! they were dumbfounded.
SHAKIR: But when they neglected that with which they had been admonished, We opened for them the doors of all things, until when they rejoiced in what they were given We seized them suddenly; then lo! they were in utter despair.

006.045
YUSUFALI: Of the wrong-doers the last remnant was cut off. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher of the worlds.
PICKTHAL: So of the people who did wrong the last remnant was cut off. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: So the roots of the people who were unjust were cut off; and all praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

This way 6:34 can better be understood. Allah says that those who mocked His Messengers were punished, that Allah's decree to punish those who laughed at His Messengers didn't change.

Quoting verses without proper context doesn�t do any good.

Peace

 



Edited by peacemaker
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Muhammad77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2006 at 7:19am

Originally posted by In Islam for non-muslims section Cyril In Islam for non-muslims section Cyril wrote:

Muhammad

So according to you (or to your link?) Christians are disbelievers. Compared to Islam I can agree with that conclusion. I have always said that Islam and Christianity are different religions, contrary to those who say both believe in the same God.

So Christians are no longer people of the Book. Have the verses that say they are been put into the category of the abrogated verses?

 

The Torah, the Zabur, the Injeel - these Holy books have been distorted and tampered, and now we muslims do not believe in these books.

These books of Allah were only in their original form at the time when they were revealed to the respective Prophets, and we muslims believe in those books only in their original form , and that is the books in their form at the time when they were revealed to the respective Prophets. And only those people who were present at the time of those Prophets and who believed in Allah and who followed the Prophet and the Holy books revealed to them in their time (which was in their original form), those people are the believers, and those people are the people of The Book.

 



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