Discussion on Qur�an

Sign*Reader
Senior Member


Brother, at times, we just stand by and watch even some of our best being unable to understand why the English say: Never cast thy pearls in front of the swine!

Somehow, you always appear out of the blue, for my rescue. I was also keeping quiet for I prefer not to take much notice of our poor Andalus' posts, in general. I had only wondered about Islamicity's criteria of selection when their moderator had readily granted his seal of affirmation to this spin - it's no myth.

There is sufficient neutral evidence to the effect that the Prophet was an exceptionally well tuned mind, with active wit and a fragrant sense of humour. He was well travelled for his day. He was definitely a bit more than just some charismatic man.

We don't need some Harvard professor to tell us that he was granted deep thought and some other obvious unusual powers and senses. He was sent to guide humanity at large, with a message that has, in fact, become more relevent, in this day of our great Tin Gods and Techno Plastic Temples.

He wasn't here for some entertainment.

I always smile and happily forgive the poor (but, of course, highly skilled) western mind when I watch its top concerns. You again don't have to run to some professor, just sit down and list worlds' top ten best selling websites.

There is also evidence that Ayesha was no ordinary woman, she was quite an activist, in her own right, in the early Islamic movement, both, before and after her marriage.

Anyway, let's look at it with some straight simple logic.

If half hearted, part time Muslims are so demonised, not just today, but through varius periods of history, THEN what share must be reserved for their supreme leader?

Try and work it out and let me know the proportion of that share? I am just trying to work out if Islamicity have been forced to accept some moderators, in these interesting times, from some very interesting agencies?

Assalam Aleikum.

Yes I agree with you that Muslims spend way too much time with details that are insignificant in light of the greater needs. It is a disease.

The contribution about Aisha's age is long and I have not the time or energy to go through it all. Hence I will make a brief reply.

Sign*Reader wrote: Andalus wrote: Muhammad77 wrote: Andalus wrote: amalhayati2 wrote: hey Andalus, you used Gd to mean God.  Yes. amalhayati wrote:  i saw an article right it that way before. (An article not a blog where one could be more free in writing whichever way they want)  Ok. amalhayati wrote:  in my opinion it doesn't look good at all writing it like that. All opinions are welcome! amalhayati wrote:   What's up with abreviating such a short word anyways?  habit alalhayati wrote:  where's the logic in that?   The logic is based upon the view that one should have fear about writing Gd as God in terms of respect. Just like I do not write God, Allah, on paper out of fear that something may pollute it. Thats the logic.   How can anything pollute Allah ?! Na'oozubillah ! Who has polluted Allah, and where is the pollution, and why is it pollution? Such logic should not come in your mind. Why not? These are the whispers of shaytan. Seek refuge in Allah from the outcast shaytan. When did I not have refuge in Allah and how do you know I need refuge in Allah? You should write the name Allah and use the name Allah everywhere ! Allah is The Most High ! Allah is free from all defects !   I appreciate your opinion. I will take it under adivsement on writing Gd, or The Gd, or The God, or the arabic transliteration, Allah. Now for my opinion. We should take refuge in Gd, or Allah, from the Satan who tries to fill our minds with insignificant, and trivial matters so we do not waste our time pursuing such matters and that we use our time to pursue the real objects of our ibadah. Brother, after you perform all of your prayers on time for years, and all of the sunnah prayers, and some of the extra fasting, then perhaps we can all focus on issues of spelling Gd or referring to Allah. I think we have much more important items to bring up than how we spell Gd. It is not even an issue of aqiida. peace  I whole heartedly second your POV, the muslims are stuck with trivial than taking care of significant issues. Anyway I would like to quote a very poignant poem of Doctor Iqbal about the state of prayer of current muslims if you will permit!! of course a translation/ Any time Aisha's-ra age is brought up anywhere on the internet, it is more often than not is a Shiaspeak, doing their thing to mar the  Muslim's faith. I don't know how one can find about fogtrik!!! Fogtrik is here for entertainment and not for a discussion for knowledge. A reseach paper which is quite comprehensive on the subject as follows: Was Ayesha A Six-Year-Old Bride? The Ancient Myth Exposed A Christian friend asked me once, �Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?� I kept my silence. He continued, �If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?� I told him, �I don�t have an answer to your question at this time.� My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet�s marriage with Ayesha. However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naive enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer. The Prophet was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband. In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable. So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet, that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha to 50-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And he did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl. The age of Ayesha has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith (traditions of the Prophet) regarding Ayesha�s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn �Urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.

I have this well written reply to this piece. I could not imitate such a reply in such a fast time frame, so I will simply paste a section of it.

EVIDENCE #1: Reliability of Source Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father.   First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported.  It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas.    The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life. Tehzibu�l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: �He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq� (Tehzi�bu�l-tehzi�b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala�ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50). It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: �I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq� (Tehzi�b u�l-tehzi�b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala�ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50). Mizanu�l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: �When he was old, Hisham�s memory suffered quite badly� (Mizanu�l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu�l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301). CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham�s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha�s marriage and age are unreliable. CHRONOLOGY: It is vital also to keep in mind some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam: pre-610 CE: Jahiliya (pre-Islamic age) before revelation 610 CE: First revelation 610 CE: AbuBakr accepts Islam 613 CE: Prophet Muhammad begins preaching publicly. 615 CE: Emigration to Abyssinia 616 CE: Umar bin al Khattab accepts Islam 620 CE: Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha to the Prophet 622 CE: Hijrah (emigation to Yathrib, later renamed Medina) 623/624 CE: Generally accepted year of Ayesha living with the Prophet

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Most of the narratives printed in the books of hadith are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, who was reporting on the authority of his father.

Reply:
This isn't a very good start for Shanavas and those who've submitted to his arguments. "Most of the narratives", we are told, "are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah." Okay, let's accept for argument's sake that most of them have been reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah. Yet it is clear from Shanavas' own words that there are in fact other reports that aren't related through Hisham at all. So why doesn't Shanavas mention any of them? Shanavas all too quickly passes over evidence that refutes his thesis, and his supporters are more than willing to let him do so. They are equally to blame; guilty by association i'd say.

The fact that other narrators agree with Hisham in reporting the young age of Aisha (r) at the time of her marriage suffices to show grave defects in Shanavas' evidence #1 argument. His attempt therefore - as we shall see below - to discredit Hisham ibn `Urwah is both unnecessary and disingenuous. This is despite the fact that to suit his purpose Shanavas has grossly exaggerated Hisham's weakness as we shall see. Shanavas wants us to believe that Hisham was mistaken in his reporting of Aisha's (r) age. So what? Is he also going to condemn all the other narrators that agree with Hisham?

Hisham ibn `Urwah isn't alone in reporting Aisha's (r) young age at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad (s). Here are some other narrators who report the same age that Hisham does:

Ibn Majah (d.273H) in his Sunan hadith collection, in the book of marriage, records it with his chain of transmission through Abu Ubaydah, on the authority of Abdullah ibn Mas'ud.

An-Nasa'i (d.303H) in his Sunan, the book of marriage, cites it with his chain of transmission through Muhammad ibn Abi Salmah, on the authority of Abdul Rahman, on the authority of Aisha (r).

An-Nasa'i also relates it through al-'Amash, on the authority of Ibrahim, on the authority of al-Aswad, from Aisha. (Cf. ibn al-Qayyim's [d.751H], Tahdhib as-Sunan #2122). Likewise, Hafidh al-Haythami (d.807H), in his Majma az-Zawa'id (#15297), cites it from al-Aswad from Aisha (r) as does Imam Ahmed (d.241H) in his Musnad collection, in the section on Aisha's (r) hadith.

At-Tabarani (d.360H) in his Mu'jam al-Kabir, in the chapter on the wives of the Prophet (s), has a number of chains of transmission for this report. Here are three of them:

- from Sa'd ibn Ibrahim, on the authority of al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, from Aisha (r)

- from Sai'd ibn Abu 'Aruba, on the authority of Qatadah, re. Aisha

- from Abu Asamah, on the authority of al-'Ajlih, on the authority of ibn Abi Malayka, re. Aisha

None of the above routes of transmission go through Hisham ibn `Urwah yet they agree with him in narrating the young age of Aisha (r).

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported.

Reply:
It is in fact reported by more than just one, two or three people.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event, despite the fact that his Medinan pupils included the well-respected Malik ibn Anas.

Reply:
Al-Qasim ibn Muhammad reports the age from Aisha (r) as per at-Tabarani's chain above and he was one of the seven famous Imams of Madina.

The last chain cited from at-Tabarani's work is through ibn Abi Malayka who is another Madinan scholar and an eminently reliable hadith narrator. He met at least thirty of the Prophet's (s) Companions. (ibn Hajar, at-Taqrib #3454)

Yahya al-Lakhmi also reports it from Aisha (r), as per ibn Sa'd's (d.230H) Tabaqat al-Kubra, and he is another Madinan authority.

In Sahih Muslim (#1422) we have az-Zuhri citing this report from Hisham ibn 'Urwa. Az-Zuhri was a Madinan hadith master and it is safe to assume that he heard this report from Hisham in Madina prior to him moving to Iraq.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medina for most of his life.
Reply
No! Madinan authorities have also cited this hadith as have other non-Iraqi narrators through chains that don't mention Hisham at all.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Tehzibu�l-Tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet, reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: �He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq� (Tehzi�bu�l-tehzi�b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala�ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century. Vol 11, p. 50)
Reply
This is nothing more than selective quoting. Shanavas picks out the quote that fits his purpose and avoids mentioning the authorities who declared Hisham's hadith as perfectly reliable. It's funny how under evidence #4 Shanavas concludes that "Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha's age" yet here we find him unashamedly citing from ibn Hajar's work simply because it suits his argument.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people in Iraq: �I have been told that Malik objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq� (Tehzi�b u�l-tehzi�b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala�ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50).
Reply
Yes, but Hisham's report about Aisha's age wasn't just reported through Iraqis.

In any case, Yaqub ibn Shaibah's and Malik's criticism of Hisham is based on nothing more than the fact that Hisham towards the end of his life no longer use the phrase "narrated to me" but would say "My father, from Aisha" for the sake of brevity - the difference between these two phrases may not be immediately obvious but they do represent technical differences from the standpoint of hadith science. Consequently, ibn Hajar - who is Shanavas' reference for this criticism - himself rejected the objection as negligible, saying: "It was clear enough to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he'd directly heard from him."

Unfortunately, Shanavas completely fails to mention that this particular criticism had been dismissed centuries ago by the very authority that he pointed his readers to.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Mizanu�l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet reports: �When he was old, Hisham�s memory suffered quite badly� (Mizanu�l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu�l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301).
Reply
Now Shanavas switches to selectively quoting from adh-Dhahabi's work al-Mizan al-I'tidal. Shanavas quotes the words "When he was old, Hisham�s memory suffered quite badly" whereas what adh-Dhababi actually says is that his "memory diminished". Memory normally diminishes in old age, doesn't it? But adh-Dhahabi rightly lambastes those who linger on the possibility that Hisham might have forgotten things towards the end of his life. He explicitly declares that Hisham:

"Never became senile at all! No attention is paid to the claim of Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattaan that he (Hisham)... became senile and (that his ability) changed... So stop fumbling and refrain from mixing the firm Imams with the weak and senile narrators... may Allah console us from you, Ibn al-Qattan, and also from the claim of Abdul Rahman ibn Khirash that Malik was not pleased with him (Hisham) and that he objected to his hadiths to the people of Iraq!" (adh-Dhahabi, al-Mizan #9233).

Again, Shanavas, for reasons best known to him, doesn't bother to tell his readers any of this. Hisham related the same hadith in Madina and in Iraq, other Madinan narrators report the same hadith independent of Hisham, and they all agree on Aisha's (r) young age. Adh-Dhahabi said: "His memory diminished in old age, so what?" (ibid). Exactly, so what? His reporting of this hadith was unaffected.

Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
CONCLUSION #1:

Based on these references, Hisham�s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha�s marriage and age are unreliable.

I hardly think so!

Wassalam
Iqbal
Link to material:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/archive/index.php/t-73057.html

Sign*Reader wrote: Andalus wrote: fogtrik wrote:   Sorry folks, I'll read all the verse from the sections that I found and post again, once I've read them in their context. There is alot know about the early life of Muhammad, for example. He married a 9 year old call Aisha and had sex with her? Is this fact or fiction? Kind Regards,   True! You said true= fact or =fiction

Aisha was betrothed to the Prophet (saw) at 6, and married at 9.

Whisper wrote: Sign*Reader Senior Member Brother, at times, we just stand by and watch even some of our best being unable to understand why the English say: Never cast thy pearls in front of the swine! Somehow, you always appear out of the blue, for my rescue. I was also keeping quiet for I prefer not to take much notice of our poor Andalus' posts, in general. I had only wondered about Islamicity's criteria of selection when their moderator had readily granted his seal of affirmation to this spin - it's no myth. There is sufficient neutral evidence to the effect that the Prophet was an exceptionally well tuned mind, with active wit and a fragrant sense of humour. He was well travelled for his day. He was definitely a bit more than just some charismatic man. We don't need some Harvard professor to tell us that he was granted deep thought and some other obvious unusual powers and senses. He was sent to guide humanity at large, with a message that has, in fact, become more relevent, in this day of our great Tin Gods and Techno Plastic Temples. He wasn't here for some entertainment. I always smile and happily forgive the poor (but, of course, highly skilled) western mind when I watch its top concerns. You again don't have to run to some professor, just sit down and list worlds' top ten best selling websites. There is also evidence that Ayesha was no ordinary woman, she was quite an activist, in her own right, in the early Islamic movement, both, before and after her marriage. Anyway, let's look at it with some straight simple logic. If half hearted, part time Muslims are so demonised, not just today, but through varius periods of history, THEN what share must be reserved for their supreme leader? Try and work it out and let me know the proportion of that share? I am just trying to work out if Islamicity have been forced to accept some moderators, in these interesting times, from some very interesting agencies?

Assalamu Alaikum,

Whisper,

You know very well that personal attack of any form will not be tolerated. On one hand you describe the troubled situation that Muslims are going through around the world, and I pray to Allah that things get better for us, on other hand, you target fellow Muslims, such as moderators on this site. Please comply with guidelines. Yes, this is warning

I hope that this reminder will not be necessary in the future.

Peace