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18th question about islam
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2008 at 7:32am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

There would be no punishment if not for the criminal act, so the perpetrator is actually responsible for both.
 
But not solely responsible.  Things usually have multiple causes.  There would be no punishment if not for the actions of the justice system either.  Besides, criminals are a product of the society (parents, schools, communities, economies) that creates them.  We all share responsibility for the many social factors that lead to crime.
 
Actually, I always thought that the interconnectedness of all people and indeed of all life is one of the major themes of most religions.  Is it not so for Islam?
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2008 at 7:44am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

I do not care why they commit the crime and st**idity is no excuse. If I am living my life in a peaceful, non-violent, following the laws of the land fashion, I have a right to expect not to become a victim of someone who does not want to follow the laws. If I am victimized I have the right to expect the criminal to be punished.
 
I agree totally.  That's not the issue.  You seem to be attacking two "straw men" of your own making:
1. That criminals ought not to be punished.
2. That horrific crimes do not deserve horrific punishments.
 
I'm not saying either of those things.  What I'm saying is that trivial crimes like the theft of three/ten dirhams (e.g., a cup of coffee) do not deserve horrific punishments (i.e., cutting off hands).
 
If you believe that violent criminals (armed robbery, home invasions) should lose their hands, then although I still would disagree I would at least understand and respect your point of view.  But honestly, if you "live in fear" that someone is going to steal something worth a couple of bucks, then you need help.
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2008 at 12:07am
"Actually, I always thought that the interconnectedness of all people and indeed of all life is one of the major themes of most religions.  Is it not so for Islam?"
 
Lives may be interconnected but we are solely responsible for our own actions and behaviors.
 
There are people who have been raised in horrendous circumstances who have never broken a law in their lives, just as there are those who have everything yet commit crimes just for fun or the thrill of it. They choose to commit a crime or not.
 
"There would be no punishment if not for the actions of the justice system either."
 
Actually, if no crimes are committed no punishment is given.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Points: 2368 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2008 at 6:02am

Its interesting Ron, that you think of certain things as barbaric.. and that is your view.

for me people are quite barbaric.. all over..
 
You bring up a small amount that one would need to steal and you trivialize that amount. Having lived over sees where people survive on 2 dollars per day, that amount is ALOT. To you are me, minor, but to the poorest of the poor alot. And sad to say there are too many people in the world and if someone steals from them there is NO justice.  
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2008 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

for me people are quite barbaric.. all over..
 
Your attitude seems to me rather disrespectful of Allah's greatest creation.
 
Quote You bring up a small amount that one would need to steal and you trivialize that amount. Having lived over sees where people survive on 2 dollars per day, that amount is ALOT. To you are me, minor, but to the poorest of the poor alot.
 
Another straw man.  I'm not talking about places where two dollars is a lot.  I'm talking about places where it is trivial -- and it is trivial in Canada.  There is absolutely no justification for such an extreme penalty here.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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honeto View Drop Down
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I hope someone learnt on this matter responds. I have heard that if someone steals a bread if they are hungry, is not the same as someone robbing a gold ring or stealing a cow to increase wealth.  They don't get the same punishment. The intention and background of the matter is also to be considered?
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 28 May 2008 at 6:47pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Nausheen View Drop Down
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
 
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

I hope someone learnt on this matter responds. I have heard that if someone steals a bread if they are hungry, is not the same as someone robbing a gold ring or stealing a cow to increase wealth.  They don't get the same punishment. The intention and background of the matter is also to be considered?
Hasan
 
Absolutely! That is my take on the case. Let someone correct us, if this is not true.
Only I would add; if they are hungry, with no bread, and do not have the means to earn it. Becuase the state should ensure nobody is hungry. That is why we have the system of Zakaat (obligatory charity).  Exact words of the hadith is escaping my memory, but it goes on the lines that one should not be satisfied eating their dinner till they have ensured 7 households in their neighbourhood are not sleeping hungry.


Edited by Nausheen - 28 May 2008 at 7:18pm
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
 
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

I hope someone learnt on this matter responds. I have heard that if someone steals a bread if they are hungry, is not the same as someone robbing a gold ring or stealing a cow to increase wealth.  They don't get the same punishment. The intention and background of the matter is also to be considered?
Hasan
 
Absolutely! That is my take on the case. Let someone correct us, if this is not true.
Only I would add; if they are hungry, with no bread, and do not have the means to earn it. Becuase the state should ensure nobody is hungry. That is why we have the system of Zakaat (obligatory charity).  Exact words of the hadith is escaping my memory, but it goes on the lines that one should not be satisfied eating their dinner till they have ensured 7 households in their neighbourhood are not sleeping hungry.
 
If only humans were like that this world would be a lot better
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