King Abd�ullah: Was this smart?

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I'm curious as to why this gentleman [King Abd'ullah] gave the Pope, a man who has made statements about Islam in the past, a golden sword? Already Islam is considered to be the most violent of all religions and of all things that are diplomatic, the.....King.......gives......the....pope....a.....sword? In this world some political figures are seen as greater physical representations of their country/religion. I hardly see this gesture as beneficial.
See ref: http://news.yahoo.com/photo/071106/ids_photos_wl/r27615914.j pg

Edited by Israfil

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Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: King Abd�ullah: Was this smart? Posted: 08 November 2007 at 8:24am
	I'm curious as to why this gentleman [King Abd'ullah] gave the Pope, a man who has made statements about Islam in the past, a golden sword? Already Islam is considered to be the most violent of all religions and of all things that are diplomatic, the.....King.......gives......the....pope....a.....sword? In this world some political figures are seen as greater physical representations of their country/religion. I hardly see this gesture as beneficial. See ref: http://news.yahoo.com/photo/071106/ids_photos_wl/r27615914.j pg Edited by Israfil

peacemaker Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 29 December 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3057	Post Options Post Reply Quote peacemaker Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 November 2007 at 10:15am
	This thread will be moved to intrafaith section.
	Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13

peacemaker Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group Male Joined: 29 December 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3057	Post Options Post Reply Quote peacemaker Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 November 2007 at 10:59am
	Assalamu Alaikum, Some might argue that this thread should be in current events. Perhaps that is also right. But, it is also sectarian in nature. King Abdullah�s actions don�t represent Islam as a whole. The title "King" or "monarchy" itself has no bearing in Islam that is prevalent in many so-called Muslim nations; it goes against the sacred institution of Islamic rule. A true Muslim always likes to see what Islam tells in any matter so that he or she could follow laws set therein. Anyway, I had to move it here primarily due to the sectarian nature of the thread. While we may not agree on some or many issues, it is very important that we discuss such matters with utmost care in order to maintain hospitable and learner-friendly environment here. Dawah should be an important objective in our lives, and many people see how we interact and exchange information whether or not they are active members. True, it is important what we say, and it is equally important how we deliver it. In no way do I mean that I am free from any flaw; we all may have our shortcomings. That is why we should interact to learn, to share, and to improve. Please feel free to discuss amicably that would help us avoid any misapprehension. May Allah guide us all. Peace
	Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13

minuteman Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642	Post Options Post Reply Quote minuteman Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 08 November 2007 at 11:46am
	It is a great topic, giving of sword by a Muslim to a Catholic can mean many things in favor or against both religions. Christians have been for ages blaming the Muslims that Islam was spread by sword. So king Abdulla giving the sword to the Catholic king may mean " Sir, you can have the sword and do not blame us for anything about the sword any more." The pope will reply, "Dear friend, what use I have for any sword. Our religion is not in favor of any sword." The real purpose of giving the sword as a gift can only be explained by the king himself. There is a good hidden message in this good gift. But it is difficult to deocde. The kings always do the high grade things which have meanings. But who will explain the meaning now ?? I agree with Israfil that it was not a good gesture to offer the sword to the pope. But it could mean the end of enmity and the beginning of friendship. Let us wait and see what the angels say about it. Edited by minuteman

Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 November 2007 at 8:07am
	Peacemaker, So moving this thread here does what? Mixed messages? You guys do it all the time with advertising and such so the prevention of mixed messages are out the door, if that is what you are hinting at. Frankly, my question stems from whether this diplomatic figure did the smart thing. Some people say it is a nice gesture some may not. Personally, I find the sword [which some may assert as a symbolic gesture of war] to be the wrong message. I mean, For God sakes! Muslims are already seen as a war mongering people, so why further this stereotype by giving the pope...Come on the pope! A sword? That is like Fidel Castro giving Jesus Christ a butcher knife. I'm not infering that the pope is pure, but I'm merely referring to how the world sees the pope not just as the poplitical figure but also the religious figure. Yes we can talk all day about how Abd'ullah does not represent Islam but the world does not see it that way so we really need to get over ourselves in repeating ourselves about how such and such do not represent Islam. The world does not hear us. We need to focus on what symbols the world believes represents Islam and continually and outwardly change those symbols. The pope in that meeting stated "Abd'ullah comes from the heart of Islam" perhaps he meant he lives in Mecca or rules in the country where Islam begin. Who knows? All I know is the pope, like the world, made the association of a political/religious figure to Islam

Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Post Options Post Reply Quote Hayfa Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 November 2007 at 3:42am
	It is a good point Israfil. The King is a representation in the eyes of the world of a Muslim nation. Whether anyone likes it or not, those leaders are the "public face." that the other 5.5 billion people may see. I am suer if they had thought about it more they could have found something else.. and really when you think about it, does the Pope need a sword??
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 November 2007 at 8:09am
	Exactly. If the intention was truly peaceful, I would have given him a Qur'an and called it a day.

Sign*Reader Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sign*Reader Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 November 2007 at 1:00am
	I would like to concur with Brother Peacemaker's comment on the legitimacy of this Anglo-American neo colonial kingship in the holy lands. The standard and the mantle of the Prophet which is supposed to be in the possession of his vicegerent, they are in the Topkapi Museum. The Saudis have not dared to request them for an obvious reason i.e., their illegitimacy for joining the enemy of Islam! All the news pictorials I have viewed about king Abdullah's visit are quite poignant when you are able to study the king's body language though hidden under the cloak outfits while on his European whirlwind homage to the European powers. With W's application of Shock Doctrine in the land of Euphrates and Tigris which enriched his petro buddies in the kingdom to an unexpected levels (black gold going from $20 to 98 pb) at the expense of the rest of the world. this is not sitting well with Europeans. The poor countries in dire straights and can't do much but to suffer in silence. The powerful could expect some sharing of the loot in form of commercial contracts so the Brits and Germans got their shares. At Vatican the new Pope is first German in almost five centuries has a different agenda when it comes to Islam. Remember his pronunciations a while back about the Prophet(s) He has been told the plight of Filipino and other Catholic flock working in the kingdom about the restrictions in their prayer activities. The Saudi clan somehow is feeling the heat that the hostility in west is on the rise so this king has taken the ultimate step to visiting the most powerful Pope as an apologist and weakling with a peace offering, the gift of sword as misplaced beduin tradition of creating the friendship with a feisty Pope. If you pay closer attention to all the pictures of his visit and you will draw a conclusion from the Pope's body language that is saying hey you are bringing this sword to me; do I look like a camel jockey? I will take the gold any time! If you know he has projected himself as people's Pope by simplifying his dress dropping the papal tiara and including people in his inaugural mass whereas Abdullah represents diametrically opposite gluttonous Anglo American supported self styled royalty who is ready to help on each and every intrigue the vested powers hatch around in the world. It looks like as if the king being called on the carpet by the Pope to talk about the treatment to his Filipino flock, and Saudi king trying to deflect with a gift of sword. In return he got papal medallion. I think the Saudis have some ominous gut feeling that they are trying to make amends. But this whole theater was out of place and in bad taste! The news reports: A Vatican statement said "the presence and hard work of Christians (in Saudi Arabia) was discussed" -- seen as a clear reference to the Vatican's concern over the Christian minority. Vatican sources said before the meeting that they expected the Pope to raise his concern over the situation of Catholics and other Christians in Saudi Arabia. The Vatican wants greater rights for the 1 million Catholics who live in Saudi Arabia, most of them migrant workers who are not allowed to practice their religion in public. I would question the rationality of hiring so many Catholics in the first place if Saudis don't plan to facilitate the practice of their faith!!! They are only allowed to worship in private places, usually homes, and cannot wear signs of their faith in public. Muslims around the world protested last year after Benedict, speaking at a university in his native Germany, used a quote that associated Islam with violence. In that speech at a university in Regensburg in his native Germany, Benedict quoted the Byzantine emperor Manuel Paleologus as saying to a Muslim: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." The Pope later said he was misunderstood and has several times expressed esteem for Muslims. At the end of the meeting, the king gave the Pope a gold and silver sword studded with precious jewels, in keeping with a bedouin custom the Saudis also follow when foreign leaders visit their country. The king also presented Benedict with a small silver and gold statue depicting a palm tree and a man riding a camel. What is he trying to prove, as if the label of being a Camel jockey is appreciated in the west In an interview with Reuters on the eve of the meeting, the bishop in charge of Catholics in Saudi Arabia called on the country to guarantee more freedom and security for minority Christians and allow more priests in to minister to the faithful. Edited by Sign*Reader
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