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jusaskin
Groupie Joined: 28 July 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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Posted: 11 April 2008 at 2:49pm |
My purpose for presently being in this forum is to introduce one of my inquisitive grandsons to Islam, and for myself to learn more of your religion from, what I assumed to be, ordinary everyday Muslims. I can read the Quran, Hadith, and various books about Islam, but I wanted to hear Muslims discuss their beliefs among themselves and with others of different faiths, especially Christians. I have formed some opinions and would like a quick check before I leave the forum. Please tell me where you think I am wrong. Christianity and Islam cannot come to a common understanding of the Creator. For a Christian, Jesus is the second person of the triune God, who became man in order to die on a Roman cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are what Christians know to be one God, in a unity that is unique to human understanding. Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose. The Quran is reported to be in it's original Arabic wording exactly as received by Muhammad from the angel Gabriel, and is therefore believed to be a reliable reference when compared to the scriptures of Christians who must rely on translations of the original works, believed to have been corrupted over time. A Christian will never accept the Quran's description of Jesus. If he does he ceases to be a Christian. A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran. For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith. Having come to these conclusions, it seems pointless to ask further questions. I am willing to hear opinions on why my conclusions are wrong, but otherwise I feel that I am wasting my time and yours. However, I'd like to sincerely thank all those who were willing to discuss these things with me in the various posts . Thank you!
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joe
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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You are welcome! This is an inter faith section as a Muslim one should know one guiding principle : 29:46 And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. Edited by Sign*Reader - 11 April 2008 at 11:26pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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"Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose."
Muslims do not accept this belief, not only because it is refuted in the Quran, but because the very notion of the Trinity implies that God is not monotheistic. This belief was also held by the followers of the Abrahamic religion until the advent of Saul, who taught that Jesus was divine, and the Council of Nicea who made God a Trinity to explain how Jesus and the Holy Spirit could be divine.
Jesus did not teach the doctrine of the Trinity, nor did any Prophet who came before him. Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 11 April 2008 at 6:57pm |
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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Servetus
Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
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Hi Joe, Welcome to the discussions, from me, a non-Muslim guest. I wouldn�t presume to tell you where you are wrong, as your thread title states, but I might simply rather ask what you were expecting from inter-faith dialogue? Of course, with rare exceptions, all sides are at best doctrinally intransigent. I mean, after all, it is religion that is being for the most part discussed and that has an epistemology all its own
However much the Muslims might at times seem to like to erect a firewall between themselves and Christians, it might interest you to know that, at one point in their history, early on, when Muslims were besieged by their enemies and a contingent had crossed the Red Sea to seek and obtain the protection of the (probably monophysite) Christian King of Abyssinia (Ethiopia), this is what reportedly transpired: "The [Christian} King welcomed them [the Muslims] and promised to protect them from their enemies. In the royal presence a question was put to them: �What do you say concerning Jesus?� The spokesman for the group replied, �concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.� When the King Negus heard this testimony, he picked up a twig from the ground and said, �I swear, the difference between what we believe about Jesus, the Son of Mary, and what you have said is not greater than the width of this twig.�" [bold emphasis added] I emphasize (and place in bold) the latter portion of the statement because it is not at all unusual to hear Muslims insist upon the former part, that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, a fact with which no Christian should disagree, but it is just that, lately, the other part, �the spirit and word of God,� doesn�t seem to get quite as much airplay on the Muslim side. I think it was that spirt and word part that St. John tried to describe in the prologue to his Gospel. Best regards, Serv Ref: (note: not able to verify the following source, but do seem to recall having read the above letter in the authenticated History of al-Tabari , Muhammad at Mecca.) Edited by Servetus - 12 April 2008 at 10:05pm |
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minuteman
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642 |
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The quotation by Servetus is perfectly right. The first part and the later part are all correct. The Muslims have no reason to deny that Jesus was a word from Allah and a spirit from Allah. If the very early Muslims understood it that way, we cannot do any better than what they understood.
This is a fact described in the Quran that Jesus was Kalimah (a word or message or meaningful sentence) from God (given to Mary). It is also described in the Quran that Jesus was a spirit from God.
So, in short, we Muslims believe that Jesus was:
1. Kalimatullah (a word from Allah)
2. Roohullah, (Spirit from Allah)
3. Nabi Allah, (Prophet of Allah)
4. Rasool Allah, (Messenger from Allah)
5. Ayatullah, ( A sign from Allah) Ch. 19, verse 21
6. Rehmatullah (Mercy from Allah) 19:21
7. Abdullah (Servant of Allah) Ch. 19:30.
8. Mubarak, (Blessed from Allah)
9. In peace all the time,
But Jesus is not Allah and he is not son of Allah. Not Ibn Allah.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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"Virgin" Mary? I didn't know that Muslims recognized the miracle of the virgin birth. So who was Jesus' father?
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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I want to add a few words here about the concept of the Trinity, because it seems like many Muslims misunderstand it.
All Christians believe that there is only one God. The Trinity represents three different aspects or ways of understanding that one God, not three separate Gods.
As an analogy, I am also three "persons": to my wife I am a Husband: to my daughter I am a Father, and to my nephew I am an Uncle. My wife, my nephew and my daughter think of me and interact with me very differently, but there's really only one of me.
In the same way, Jesus is the manifestation of God as a living person, as known to his contemporaries; God the Father is the creator of the universe, who (as I understand it) cannot be directly known by us; and the Holy Spirit is the "Comforter" whom Jesus promised would come after him, and who can be known directly by anyone who has faith.
It's not my own personal belief, so I'd be pleased if a Catholic would care to correct me, but that is my understanding of it.
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Shasta'sAunt
Senior Member Female Joined: 29 March 2008 Status: Offline Points: 1930 |
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However you try to describe the Trinity, you are still taking three separate entities and making them equal to God.
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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt |
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