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rulings on apostasy

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unity1 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 March 2005 at 12:24pm

Asalam Aalaikum

I would like my brothers to present their comments on the reply given by the respected Imam of Islamicity.com to a question asked by a brother on the issue of apostasy.

Following is the question and answer:


Question:
I want to ask about Ridah. There was a question you answered some time ago (I don't remember which) where you said a a muslim can choose to change his religion if he wants to, even if both his parents are muslims. I was very surprised. The reason I ask is that there are some muslims that say ridah (or apostacy) in Islam is a political concept and involves treason and revolt againt the Ummah. I assume that means that is someone leaves peacfully (defection!) then that is okay, but if not he has to be executed. Is this so. I would also like your permission to email your replay to a British professer I know. He is interested in defending Islam against people like Salman Rushdie and he would like to know more about the religion and the meaning of riddah. Explaining and justifying riddah is a problem we all have here since it is hard to explain why we should execute someone for changing his religion, especially since we believe in freedom of religion (there is no compulsion in religion). If what you said before is true, then ridah is political. Your Muslim brother, Emad El-Din Aysha. people like Salman.




Answer:
Dear Br. E. As-salaamu alaykum. Before specifically replying to your question, please allow us to say that a Muslim doesn't have to be apologetic about the stated ruling of his/her religion even if the ruling may not be compatible with a culture that doesn't adapt Islam in its legal system. At the same time, it is very important for the Muslim to portray the comprehensive aspect of rulings regarding any topic, because Islamic law and jurisprudence are not simplistic, but they take into considerations many factors. Now, back to the issue of Riddah. Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.
[/blue]


Please discuss this question and answer in this thread and freely express your opinions on it.

Regards,

who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.
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Mukhlis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukhlis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:53am

Dear Unity1.

Assalaamu Alaikum brother.

So you got the answer from the Imaam. If you say this to your Professor, you can forget about he being sympathetic to Muslims or being inclined towards Islam. He might just ask you " How come Muslims talk of Da'wah ? ( Invitation to non-Muslims to leave their religion & accept Islam ). Such Daa'ii ( those offering Da'wah) according to Riddah theory must be hanged and those changing their religion in favour of Islam must also be hanged. I fault Salman Rushdie for what he did but could not agree at the fatwa of aayatullah.

We must have the fainess to apply same rules to ourselves what we apply to others & vice versa.

My advice. Stay with Qur'an, there is no compulsion in religion ( Al Baqrah 2:256 ) & Allah  is kind & tolerant enough. He will not put on us burden more than we can bear ( 2:286). If you are a lover of The Holy Qur'an, I will give you a list of ayaat - a selection - to ponder and offer Da'wah with that.

Here is another problem. Suppose I was in the shoes of respected Imaam, perhaps I will have to say the same thing. Unfortunately this is the position. The whole Ummah, preacher & ordinary believer alike - You say a single word that you can not corroborate with centuries old "Islamic Literature" - you will be guilty of Bid'ah, Blasphemy or who knows - apostacy. All are afraid to use their conscience while Qur'an keeps repeating " Will you then not use your mind ?"     

Wish you an easy way out of this catch 22.

Brother Mukhlis

 



Edited by Mukhlis
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Nausheen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 8:13am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rehman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

The above post is a desparate attempt to undermine the status and ranks of Ulema in Islam.

To say the least, please ignore such people when you encounter them, as some of us have not understood the seriousness of some hadith clearly.

I repeat, the prophet has said that the Ulema are the inheritors of the prophets.

He(SAW) also warned that a time will come, when knowledge will be taken away from among us, because these ulema will be taken away (ie they will be dead) - dont let that time loom on us in this age. Respect your teachers, and try to learn your deen from those who can transmit valuable knowledge to you.

Allah says, those who wage a war against those I love have waged a war against Me. Allah loves those who have studied His religion and act upon it, these ARE the authentic Ulema of olden times AND our times.

It is true that many have also been misguided after studying the  deen, but sweeping all with the same brush, giving an impression there are NO authentic ulema in today's times is an effort to mislead.

Request:

Please do not make this thread a discussion on authenticity of scholars in Islam today, rather stay within the frames of the first post.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

 

<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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unity1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unity1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,


Bismillah ir rehman ir rahim,


Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,


The above post is a desparate attempt to undermine the status and ranks of Ulema in Islam.


To say the least, please ignore such people when you encounter them, as some of us have not understood the seriousness of some hadith clearly.


I repeat, the prophet has said that the Ulema are the inheritors of the prophets.


He(SAW) also warned that a time will come, when knowledge will be taken away from among us, because these ulema will be taken away (ie they will be dead) - dont let that time loom on us in this age. Respect your teachers, and try to learn your deen from those who�can transmit valuable knowledge to you.


Allah says, those who wage a war against those I love have waged a war against Me. Allah loves those who have studied His religion and act upon it, these ARE the authentic Ulema of olden times AND our times.


It is true that many have also been misguided after studying the� deen, but sweeping all with the same brush, giving an impression there are NO authentic ulema in today's times is an effort to�mislead.


Request:


Please do not make this thread a discussion on authenticity of scholars in Islam today, rather stay within the frames of the first post.


Maa salaama,


Nausheen





Asalam Aalaikum

Dear Mr. Nausheen

You have unfortunately misunderstood me, I didnot post this question and answer inorder to undermine the position of the Islamic Scholars ,I justed posted it inorder to have a discussion over it in the best way that is possible.

We are in a learning process and inshallah with the help of Allah(swt) ,we will surely get guidance.

Please donot misunderstand me, I am a simple student of Islam who wants to learn about Islam and inshallah I will remain a student till my death.

I have started this discussion not inorder to put the knowledge of the Scholar under question ,but inorder to have a fruit ful discussion over it since different Muslim Scholars have different opinion on this matter and this is the reason why (ultimate verdict) fatwa has not been passed on this matter of apostasy.

Please present your comments respected brothers.

Regards,


who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.
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karama View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote karama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by unity1 unity1 wrote:


Asalam Aalaikum

I would like my brothers to present their comments on the reply given by the respected Imam of Islamicity.com to a question asked by a brother on the issue of apostasy.

Following is the question and answer:


Question:
I want to ask about Ridah. There was a question you answered some time ago (I don't remember which) where you said a a muslim can choose to change his religion if he wants to, even if both his parents are muslims. I was very surprised. The reason I ask is that there are some muslims that say ridah (or apostacy) in Islam is a political concept and involves treason and revolt againt the Ummah. I assume that means that is someone leaves peacfully (defection!) then that is okay, but if not he has to be executed. Is this so. I would also like your permission to email your replay to a British professer I know. He is interested in defending Islam against people like Salman Rushdie and he would like to know more about the religion and the meaning of riddah. Explaining and justifying riddah is a problem we all have here since it is hard to explain why we should execute someone for changing his religion, especially since we believe in freedom of religion (there is no compulsion in religion). If what you said before is true, then ridah is political. Your Muslim brother, Emad El-Din Aysha. people like Salman.




Answer:
Dear Br. E. As-salaamu alaykum. Before specifically replying to your question, please allow us to say that a Muslim doesn't have to be apologetic about the stated ruling of his/her religion even if the ruling may not be compatible with a culture that doesn't adapt Islam in its legal system. At the same time, it is very important for the Muslim to portray the comprehensive aspect of rulings regarding any topic, because Islamic law and jurisprudence are not simplistic, but they take into considerations many factors. Now, back to the issue of Riddah. Riddah is apostasy, and by definition, it is the PUBLIC act of leaving one's religion to another belief system (which can be atheism). By the way, "public" includes telling any person of the act and doesn't have to be in a press conference to be public. Therefore, regardless if someone leaves Islam and only tells one other person or a group of people about the act, the judgment for that person would be the same. He/she would have done something damaging to Islam by expressing that he was once a Muslim and no longer believes that the Divine Law is the correct Law. As to the issue of how to apply the judgment on an apostate, the killing is not applied immediately. In an Islamic State, the judge makes the judgment to his discretion, and he may ask the apostate to rethink his decision and to repent; the judge also gives him a period of time after which the final judgment is applied. Thank you for asking and God knows best.
[/blue]


Please discuss this question and answer in this thread and freely express your opinions on it.

Regards,
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Mukhlis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mukhlis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2005 at 10:42pm

To: Unity1

 

Salaam Alaik, brother.

Nausheen's reply was directed to me "Mukhlis", not to you. I am an irregular visitor/member of the board. Still pre-occupied with job & family. I saw that since  27th March, no one had gone near the question you raised. It is hot potatato. Last night I  replied to your post but my msg was overtly critical of "Ulema" - the type who only narrate what they read from literature centuries old - Out of context and certainly centuries apart in time and thousands of miles apart in place. I see such pronouncements out of time & out of place. Picking words but leaving the essence & the why ? & wherefore ? 

Majority of Muslims don't see them as I see. I also try to get to the reasons  for Mulsim's downfall - an exercise in futility. "Submitting" Muslims will not agree & non committed don't care.

To cut the story short, Sis Nausheen gave a slap on the wrist for undermining status of Ulema in general and I backed off. She is moderator. Besides I know her for some time now and certain mutual respect has developed. We can not have a chaos on this board. I edited & sanitised my earlier msg. Edited msg is what you see now.

So pls rest assured she is not against your post.

Mukhlis

 

 She complained that I was sweeping all with the same brush

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unity1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2005 at 3:51am

Asalam Aalaikum

Brother Mukhlis,I understand your concern over this matter but if you have any question regarding this matter of apostasy or want to present your own understanding of this matter,then you are most welcome but please donot try to put the position of any of the respected Islamic Scholars and Imams under question.
We are hear to learn as I have already mentioned this before, and inshallah from this discussion we will surely increase our knowledge about Islam and its Laws.

From your post we get the impression that you donot agree with the viewpoint regarding the punishment for apostasy and you have full rights to express your viewpoints and comments. Actually this matter of apostasy is under discussion and due to discrepancies in the opinions of prominent Muslim Scholars regarding apostasy, no ultimate verdict(fatwa)has been passed on this matter.

Some Muslim Scholars claim that an apostate should face death penalty and they base this opinion on the narrative of a Prophetic tradition reported by Bukhari, in his"Kitaab al-Jihaad wal-Siyar", "Kitaab istitabah al-Murtaddeen" and "Kitaab al-ai`tisaam bil-Kitaab wal-Sunnah", in which the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:

Whoever changes his Religion, kill him.


Muslim Scholars also hold the opinion that an apostate should be given a chance to repent and think over the decision he made, but if he still doesnot repent and holds his decision of conversion to a non-Islamic belief as ultimate, then he should be punished according the Islamic Law.

According to my understanding and knowledge when an apostate is given a chance to repent and think over the decision he made, he should be asked politely that what forced him to leave Islam? What bad did he find in Islam which made him change his belief?

If an apostate is asked these questions and is allowed to express explicitly his reason for converting to a non-Islamic faith ,then I think it would help tremendously.

Like me their are several Muslims who donot agree with the viewpoint that an apostate should be killed and also their are Muslim Scholars who donot agree that an apostate should be killed and they justify their viewpoint from authentic sources of Islam.

Regards,

who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote deist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 April 2005 at 11:50pm
Greetings and Peace,
Strange that this topic every now and then pops up.
One wonders why...

Actually its really very simple.
Apostates (generally) get killed if they dont repent.
All 4 schools of the sunni tradition and the shia agree on this.
Generally they also agree to allow a period of 3 days for repentance.

Peace
Deist


Edited by deist
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