 fredifreeloader wrote:
no sorry, bismarck, maybe im getting a bit dim in my old age, but i still dont know what youre on about. has someone said that full prostration prayer is not correct?
biblical examples of posture in prayer:
bowing head - genesis24.26, exodus 4.31, 12.27, 34.8
kneeling - 1 kings8.54, 2 chronicles6.13, ezra9.5, psalm95.6, isaiah45.23, daniel6.10, luke22.41, acts7.60, 9.40, 20.36, 21.5, ephesians3.14
on the face before God - numbers20.6, joshua5.14, 1 kings18.42, 2 chronicles20.18, matthew26.39
standing - 1 kings8.22, mark11.25, luke18.11
you have also brought up the subject of nimrod a couple of times now. it would be interesting to know your thoughts on this person
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I think it is unambiguously clear that the overall message seen in prayer postures is one of deference, respect, and the acknowledgement of the grandeur of Almighty God.
I also think that having numerous prayer positions is too complicated. One God, one prayer posture. Otherwise, you risk religion becoming a legalistic formalism of "in such and such a case, do X; but if the situation is thus and this, do Y; ..."
Moreover, I fully acknowledge the lack of "standardization" of prayer in the OT.
At the same time, tell me I'm wrong when I say that the Israelites in the OT are well known for their backsliding. They worshipped a smorgasbourg of foreign Gods and adopted their myriad ways, and the Prophets struggled with the strength of Lions to push, pull, prod, cajole, tease, and yell and scream and anything else they could think of to try to keep some semblance of order amidst the Snake's attacks. Therefore, the fact that there was such variability of prayer posture, for example, in the OT is something I view as merely "par for the course" and yet another symptom of, to put it bluntly, the lack of purity of faith of the OT Israelites, whose Belief was under full on attack by the Snake who was trying, as in Eden, to mix Evil into the Good.
One God, one prayer posture. And full-prostration prayer, according to the Christian author I quoted above, is the only one that truly shows an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that we, as mortal men, CREATED BEINGS MADE BY GOD, have utterly no standing before the ALMIGHTY.
The examples I cited of full prostration prayer were done by MOSES and AARON. Genesis 26:24, for example, is an example of one of Abraham's servants, who cannot be expected to be as much an exemplar of the True Way as one of the Great Prophets themselves. Is this unreasonable?
Re: Exodus 4:31, here is Young's Literal Translation:
31and the people believe when they hear that Jehovah hath looked after the sons of Israel, and that He hath seen their affliction; and they bow and do obeisance.
The "bow [their heads]" part is lacking, so I cannot accept Ex 4:31 as a valid example. Note, I do not accept that the AV-1611 is the "inerrant word of God". It is better than most, but not perfect, the Majority Text is better, for example.
The same is true of Exodus 12:27, YLT does not have "of the heads".
Exodus 34:8 is a perfect example of what I'm showing here:
AV1611
8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
YLT
8 And Moses hasteth, and boweth to the earth, and doth obeisance,
I hope you can understand why I often view the AV1611 as suspect. FYI, "King James" was a flaming faggot. Flaming. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I offer that that should tarnish the translation, or at least give us pause before adopting it hook line and sinker. Judge a tree by it's fruits... and seriously don't chow down on that tree lemme tell you dude!
The Protestant Puritans asked for the translation. James, a Stuart Catholic, only barely agreed to it. I could go on. In my head, the "AV1611", which I will never call what most people do, is extremely suspect. It is based off of the Eastern manuscripts... but the men who translated it were very much influenced by their ruler... and I say it shows. For example, the AV1611 seems to be the source for redefining "Sir" and "Sire / Father"... which violates Matthew 23:9... The Snake has legions (Mark 5:10).
Psalm 95:6 would be a stronger case for kneeling, but still full prostration does show greater acknowledgment of God's majesty, does it not? And does God deserve only partial effort? The simplest answer is, "full prostration prayer shows the greatest deference to God -- and why should you give God, who gave you LIFE and a UNIVERSE sized playground to romp around in, deserve less than the max"? As for "Islam is not in the OT", let us speculate that "Islam is the True Way". And we certainly know that Belief in the OT days was not pure, the OT itself tells us that. So, the statement that "[pure] Islam is not found [wholely] in the OT" suffers no logical contradictions. The most you could possibly expect to find in the OT is a "muddied reflection of the True Way", given the rampant mixing in of random non-Mosaic faiths. Logical consistency does not prove factual validity, but neither does it disprove it. Where have I mispoken? How could anyone stand back and say simply that Belief in the OT was perfectly pure?
Note from your examples of full-prostration prayer who did such:
numbers20.6, joshua5.14, 1 kings18.42, 2 chronicles20.18, matthew26.39
=
Moses (& Aaron), Joshua, Elijah, (Jehoshaphat,) the Messiah
Moses, Joshua, Elijah, and Yeshua the Messiah are the Hall of Famers of the OT. If others did not keep up to their standard, that does not mean Moses, Joshua, Elijah, and Yeshua the Messiah should be forsaken for others. In fact, the picture so far seems to be consistent -- the PILLARS of BELIEF practiced full-prostration, while others more PERIPHERAL to Belief at that time had not yet "gone the last mile" to full-prostration prayer. They were still in the "baby's milk" phase, as per Saul Paulus.
Daniel 6:10 does not exclude full prostration prayer, as you technically have to get onto your knees before prostration, but that is not the blatant plain reading of the text.
Stephen in Acts 7:60 is praying under extreme duress...
Insofar as Luke 22:41 conflicts against the full prostration in Matthew 26:39 (see note for Daniel above), I would have to go with Matthew who is buttressed by 2000 years of Church tradition as the more pre-eminent Apostle. Luke was a follower of Paul, and not a direct member of the Messiah's Inner Circle. Also, Luke is writing for a more gentile audience, and may be "watering the message down" for the present time, "baby's milk" as above.
Ephesians 3:14 has Paul on his knees. Again as with Daniel. But even so, Paul, an Apostle, does not trump the MESSIAH in Matthew 26:39.
Mark 11:25 is an abbreviated version of Matthew 6, and has combined the lines where the HYPOCRITE PHARISEES stand to pray with the need for forgiveness. Mark does not trump Matthew.
Luke 18:11 is a HYPOCRITE PHARISEE standing and praying. Yeshua the Messiah lambastes the Pharisees, even as Snake-spawn. As such we should do the EXACT OPPOSITE of the HYPOCRITE SNAKE SPAWN. The opposite of standing is full prostration. Case closed.
In fact, I suspect that the Gospel writer is in fact TELLING US SOMETHING, about how the Pharisees did not even bother to bow and show deference AT ALL! I believe that is just another SUBTLE way of saying, "NIMROD! SNAKE SPAWN!"
acts 9.40, 20.36, 21.5, like Daniel, all have the phrase, "Bent the knees, and prayed".
I obviously can't prove that means "full prostration prayer", because it does not say, "and pressed their foreheads to the Earth".
But, for the record, when you pray in full prostration, you don't just do a Karate forward fall, and slap out on your toes and hands. You have to "bend your knees, and then pray". It's not clear to me either way, I say these words are ambiguous. For the record, it does not say, either, "bent the knees, and clasped their hands..." See? It doesn't say that either. It has the ambiguous verb "pray". You say, "Pray" = clasp hands on knees. I say, "Pray" = bow forward from kneeling position. I am not convinced this is clear either way.
Even still, I see the following:
Moses, Joshua, Elijah (the Greatest Prophet of Israel after Moses), and THE Messiah did full prostration prayer...
Others who are not typically considered quite as Great as these may have done otherwise...
I still say Team Moses/Joshua/Elijah/Yeshua the Messiah trumps.
And moreover, we have a Snake-Spawn Roman-collaborating Pharisee who STANDS UP...
Do the opposite of the Snake-spawn Pharisee...
and again you are in full prostration prayer.
If the Messiah does full prostration...
and some other guy only bows his head or goes to the knees...
the message I hear is, at least, "full prostration is the IDEAL towards which we should all STRIVE".
The fact that it is not PURE AND CLEAR AND STANDARD in the OT is just because of the apostasy of the times.
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