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The Torah�s successor
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Israfil View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 March 2006 at 7:16pm

In the name of God, the merciful the compassionate

As' Salaamu Alaikum Muslims!

I wanted to discuss the subject on the Tawrat which is the Arabic word for Torah, or the Law. Theologically, since the Torah is traditionally seem as the Law which was orally conducted from person to person, over time it was thought to have been abrogatted as if any law were to be carried out orally in any tradition. However I didn't understand the subject of Rajm (or stoning to death) which as I have found a controversial topic between Sunnis and Shias as I have found there are different interpretations to that. However what I wanted to know was since the Torah was succeeded by the Qur'an why were the Jews judged by the Torah (the Torah is comprised by the five books of Moses) which was already succeeded by the Qur'an?

The following hadith got me thinking today:

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 825:

Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:

The jews came to Allah's Apostle and mentioned to him that a man and a lady among them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah regarding the Rajam?" They replied, "We only disgrace and flog them with stripes." 'Abdullah bin Salam said to them, 'You have told a lie the penalty of Rajam is in the Torah.' They brought the Torah and opened it. One of them put his hand over the verse of the Rajam and read what was before and after it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift up your hand." Where he lifted it there appeared the verse of the Rajam. So they said, "O Muhammad! He has said the truth, the verse of the Rajam is in it (Torah)." Then Allah's Apostle ordered that the two persons (guilty of illegal sexual intercourse) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned, and I saw the man bending over the woman so as to protect her from the stones.

So the question I have is, although the Qur'an succeeded's the Torah not just because of the new prophet, but because of the laws which exist in the Qur'an (those which are mentioned in the Qur'an) is the whole of the Torah succeeded or just partial of the Torah which was abrogatted?
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peacemaker View Drop Down
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Points: 3057 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peacemaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 4:54am

Assalamu Alaikum!

Brother Israfil, I will try to answer your question.

Well, Qur'an was revealed on Prophet ( SAW ) for entire humanity, and there are many things that are similar to what was already in Torah even after it was abrogated. This hadith tells us that there are still similarities in Qur'an and Torah. That is the 'central message' of the hadith.

For example: See the similarities:

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS & THE
CONFIRMATION IN THE QURAN

The Ten Commandments
(Exodus 12: 1-17 & Deuteronomy 5: 6-21)		 Confirmation in the Quran
(Chapter: Verse)
1. Thou shall not take any
God except one God. 		 1. There is no God except
one God (47:19) 
2. Thou shall make no
image of God. 		 2. There is nothing whatsoever
like unto Him (42:11) 
3. Thou shall not use
God's name in vain. 		 3. Make not God's name an
excuse to your oaths (2:224) 
4. Thou shall honor thy
mother and father. 		 4. Be kind to your parents if one
or both of them attain old age in thy
life, say not a word of contempt nor
repel them but address them in 
terms of honor. (17:23) 
5. Thou shall not steal. 5. As for the thief, male or female, cut off
his or her hands, but those who repent
After a crime and reform shall be
forgiven by God for God is forgiving
and kind. (5:38 - 39) 
6. Thou shall not lie or give
false testimony. 		 6. They invoke a curse of God if
they lie. (24:7) Hide not the
testimony (2:283) 
7. Thou shall not kill. 7. If anyone has killed one person it is as
if he had killed the whole mankind (5:32) 
8. Thou shall not commit adultery.  8. Do not come near adultery. It is an
indecent deed and a way for other 
evils. (17:32) 
9. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors
wife or possessions. 		 9, Do good to your parents, relatives and
neighbors. (4:36) Saying of the Prophet
Muhammad (P) "One of the greatest sins 
is to have illicit sex with your neighbors wife". 
10. Thou shall keep the Sabbath holy. 10. When the call for the Friday Prayer is
made, hasten to the remembrance of
God and leave off your business. (62:9)

 

http://www.jewsforallah.org/

Hope this helps.

Peace
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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abgansa View Drop Down
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Wa'alaikum Salaam,

Indeed, the teachings of Allah in all walks of life should be the same, no matter the historical period of revelation. On that note it is expected that the Noble Qur'an been the last book of Allah, should confirm and perfect what were revealed before it and not contradict them. As stated in Qur'an 2: 2-4:

" This is the Book whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaquun. Who believe in the Ghaib and perform As-Salaat and spend out of what we have provided for them. And who beleive in which has been sent down to you  and in what were sent down before you ( the Torah and the Injeel) and they believe with certainty in the Hearafter."

Based on the above verse if the jews were non-muslims then they probabily wouldn't have taken a judgement from the Qur'an. But The Prophet (SAW) being inspired by Allah expected the same ruling on the matter from the scriptures of  Musah(AS). Further Allah states in Qur'an 26:192-197

" And verily, your Lord, He is indeed the All-Mighty, the most Merciful. And Truly, this is a revelation from the Lord of 'Alamin. Which the trustworthy Ruh has brought down Upon your heart that you may be one of the warners. In the plain Arabic language. And verily, it is (announced) in the Scriptures( ie. the Torah and Injeel) of former people. Is it not a sign to them that the learned scholars of the Children of Israel know it (as true)?"

 logically, if the Prophet(SAW) is to be one of the warners like (Musah (AS)) and the Qur'an is announced in the former scriptures then no doubt, their message should tread the same line and hence the same ruling.



Edited by abgansa
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Originally posted by abgansa abgansa wrote:

logically, if the Prophet(SAW) is to be one of the warners like (Musah (AS)) and the Qur'an is announced in the former scriptures then no doubt, their message should tread the same line and hence the same ruling.
But your logic lacks evidence from the Quran.

As far as this hadith is concerned that you have quoted, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 825, I doubt its authenticity on the basis of it "Maten" i.e. its contents. How can one imagine that Holy Prophet might have awarded a punishment merely upon the testimony of some people (the jews who brought the offenders), who were proven liar right in his own presence. There must be much more to it that the narrater couldn't possibly put it into words or couldn't simply remember the details. I don't think it's reasonable to debate over such weak ahadith.
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 March 2006 at 9:30pm

Wa alaikum Salaam

I didn't want to just discuss Rajm according to that hadith, my main point was to ask th question, that in all matters of dialogue with the Jews since the Qur'an succeed's the Torah why were the Jews judged on supposed corrupted doctrine? I wanted to see if there were any verses that specifically point out why the Torah was corrupted and why our prophet judged the Jews based on the corrupted doctrine.
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Kindly correct me, by Torah do you mean the first five books of OT?Secondly, kindly certify your assumption first. How do you assume that the Torah which we now have is the same as that with the Jews of Arabia at that time?

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 March 2006 at 10:57am

Brother Ahmad

I'm not Jewish so I do not know, however I  have spoken to many Jews who claim that there is little change in the Torah they have now since the time of Moses. The little change they say, comes from the oral traditioon of their sages. That is why they have a commentary or Talmud. Also according to the Hadith that I have posted the Prophet judged the Jews based on their own Torah, so, again I wanted to know why the prophet judged them on a corrupted Torah
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