My Questions, If You May Kindly Answer, W/Sources.

Question 002.

Not all of my questions are so involved, but some are [and this one is a bit longer and more complicated because of the background/foundation being laid [therefore please double check my references], and so please have patience with me, and I will try to mix my longer and shorter questions up a bit.

This question [at the bottom of this documentation] concerns 'Arabia' in its post [afterwards], concurrent [present] and pre-Abrahamic times and its human genetic populace thereof, which focus will be in regards a recurring statement I have heard stated on numerous occasions in regards Ismail [Ishmael], as 'the Father of the Arab/s'.

I have heard/read from various persons, both Islamic and non, that 'Ismail' [Ishmael, the son of the Egyptian slave-girl Hagar, and Abraham] is the 'Father of the Arab/s'.

For instance, in Yusuf-Ali's Qur'anic translation with notations:


For instance, in Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578 (with interpolation):


This is a really unique claim, but is it true or exaggerated or misunderstood or false?

I wanted to know for myself if this specific statement had documentable validity, and so began my search into the various records, such as from the Biblical [KJB], the historical and as well as the primary authentic Islamic records [a Qur'an [itself without notations], aHadith [Sahih] and Tafsir, etc.]

What I found in regards Isma'il was this, that he is mentioned in the following sources:

a Qur'an [Yusuf-Ali translation]:


and one additional assumed [Islamic traditional, as Yusuf-Ali says] reference, but does not actually name Isma'il in the Qur'anic text itself:


However, though Isma'il is mentioned [except the last citation, which is assumed in Islamic tradition] directly in these texts, there is no explicit or even of implicit mention of his being the 'Father of the Arab/s', though certain texts do speak of a 'progeny', merely in relation to being 'Muslims', not Arab/s.

The only times that the word 'Arab' appears in a Qur'an is in the use of the language of Muhammad's day, "Arabic", "non-Arab" [citing Yusuf Ali's translation with notation brackets]:


Additional possible mentions of 'Arabic language' by implication may be found in:


In searching the Islamic aHadith [Sahih] and Tafsir, I found rather interesting material in regards "Arab/s/ians/ic", for instance, that in the days of Hajar [Hagar/Hajira/Agar] and Isma'il [Ishmael] there were Arabic peoples ["Jurhum (an Arab tribe)"], with an Arabic language already in existence:

Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 40, Number 556:


Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 583 [sectioned]:


Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, 584 [sectioned]:


Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 597:


Sahih al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 50 [sectioned]:


Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 343, citing Sahih al-Bukhari], said,


Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 1767], says,
Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 4096, commenting on Saba' 34:15-17], says,


Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF, page 4096, commenting on Al Dukhan 44:34-37], says,


Tafsir of Ibn Kathir [abridged 10 volume, PDF page 5653, commenting on Al Fil 105:1-5], "Qahtan", is there also mentioned.

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Baqara 2:124-127, we read of the Islamic "Ibrahim" and "Isma'il" in a place which is assumed to be Makkah [Mecca], and rebuilding the foundations of the "House" [Ka'ba] and "sanctify[ing]" [Al Baqara 2:125; see Yusuf-Ali's notation *129 [sectioned] "... Such Paganism or star-worship or planet-worship as there was in Abraham's time was first cleared out of Makkah by Abraham, This is the chief meaning of "sanctification" or "purification" in 2:125, ..."] it of the paganism and idols, which would mean that there were already peoples in that area, who had build such a city, and placed their idols there, long before the Islamic "Ibrahim" and "Isma'il" arrived there.

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Ibrahim 14:9, it says in part,


In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Hajj 22:42, it says in part, "... People of Noah, and �Ad and Thamud;", which afterwards in Al Hajj 22:43 follows the names of "Abraham and Lot", and in Al Hajj 22:44, follows the name of "Moses", which immediate pattern of names seems to indicate that "'Ad and Thamud", by Islamic criteria/standards, was before or at the time of Abraham.

In a Qur'an. Yusuf-Ali, Al Mu'minun 23:30-31, it says in part [having mentioned the disembarking of Noah in Al Mu'minum 23:23-29, "Then We raised after them another generation.", "And We sent to them a messenger from among themselves, (2894) ...", and the notation by Yusuf-Ali *2894, says [in part], "If this refers to any particular prophet, it must be Hud whose mission was to the 'Ad people, or to Salih, whose mission was to the Thamud people. That is the sequence after Noah in 11:50-60 and 61-68. But I think that as the name is not mentioned, we are to understand in general the type of post-Flood prophets until we come later on to Moses and Jesus ..."

In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Furqan 25:37-38 and notation, we read of the people of "'Ad and Thamud", following after the name of "Noah", wherein notation *3094 says,


In a Qur'an, Yusuf-Ali, Al Shu'ara 26:123-124,141-142, after Noah is again mentioned in Al Shu'ara 26:106-119, we have the mention of "'Ad", and "Hud", as well as "Thamud" and "Salih" [Al Shu'ara 26:141-142], as well as "Lut" and family, and the destruction of peoples [Lot, Al Shu'ara 26:160,161,167,170-173], which thus indicates, at least according to Qur'anic and Islamic sources in regards geo-political peoples, were around at the same general era of time. If tied to a Biblical [KJB] timeframe, because of the mention of Noah, unto the destruction of the peoples [which would indicate the cities of the plain, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc], and with Lot, it would indicate that these people groups existed in the Arabian peninsula before, during and after Abraham's journey from Ur of the Chaldees and his sojourn into Canaan and Egypt and out again.

According to Islamic [Al-A'raf 7:73-74; "Salih" possibly being "Salah" of Arphaxad, Genesis 10:24 KJB] and possibly some non-Islamic historic sources [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thamud ], the "'Ad and Thamud", peoples existing [southern Arabia, in the Hejaz, see also Yusuf-Ali notation *2002, on Al Hijr 15:80, "2002 "The Rocky Tract" is undoubtedly a geographical name. On the maps of Arabia will be found a tract called the Hijr, north of Madinah. Jabal Hijr is about 150 miles north of Madinah. The tract would fall on the highway to Syria . This was the country of Thamud. For them and the country see 7:73, n. 1043.] circa 715 BC, and possibly long before in the time even before and during Abraham's time, were supposed to be descendants of the Islamic "Iram" [Bible [KJB] "Aram"] and "Ars" [Bible [KJB] "Uz"], see also Genesis 10:22,23; 1 Chronicles 1:17 KJB.

According to Ibn Ishaq's siratul Rasu'allah [the first classical work of the biographical life of Muhammad] [circa AD 765], page 3-4 [sectioned], we read of the Islamic genealogical line of Isma'il,


It is obvious, if I take the Qur'anic, authentic Islamic aHadith, Tafsir and historic biographical sources, even at their own face value, in the matter of peoples living in Arabia before Isma'il, I see that I cannot come to any other conclusion than that Isma'il is not "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s', nor even the originator of the Arabic language/s, as some might desire to say, as according to the authentic Islamic source, Isma'il "learned Arabic from" a people group already present in the Arabian peninsula, and of which were of the peoples of "Qahtan" [possibly the "Joktan" [a son of Eber] of the Bible [KJB], Genesis 10:25,30-32; 1 Chronicles 1:20 KJB], and that the peoples of "'Ad and Thamud" were already present also, among others.

I also searched the Biblical [KJB] record, and here is what I find:

The Bible [KJB] itself, God's perfectly inspired, preserved and eternal word [Psalms 12:6-7, 105:8, 119:89,160; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; John 10:35; 2 Timothy 3:10-17 KJB], though it does not agree with the Islamic aHadith sources in the specifics of Ishmael's spouses, [similarly, though not exactly], nor even of the specifics of his migrational location does declare that there were indeed peoples already populated in the Arabian peninsula, specifically from the time just after the flood of Noah, when his descendants spread out over the earth, from "Shem, Ham and Japheth" [Genesis 5:32 KJB]. However, before considering those events, I wanted to look at the origin and later migration of Ishmael himself from the Bible's [KJB] texts.

Ishmael, according to the Bible [KJB] was born of the lineage of Abraham [a 'son' [descendant] of "Eber", hence "Abram the Hebrew" [Genesis 14:13 KJB; see also Genesis 39:14,17 KJB and so also Joseph, son of Jacob/Israel [grandson of Abraham], was an �Hebrew�, as per Genesis 41:12 KJB]] and of Hagar [an Egyptian slave-girl given to Sarai/h to be a bondservant, by a king of Egypt; Genesis 16:1-3,8,10, 17:20, 21:9-21, 25:12,17; Galatians 4:21-31 KJB] as may be seen from Genesis 16:10, 17:20, 1 Chronicles 1:28 KJB.

This means that of origin biologically, geographically and of language, Ishmael was an Hebrew [father's side] - Egyptian [mother's side] born [Genesis 16:3, see also "plain of Mamre", Genesis 14:13, 18:1, 49:30 KJB] and sojourned in the land of Canaan [a 'son' of Ham; Genesis 10:6,20; 1 Chronicles 1:8 KJB], and thus may be rightly called [a coined phrase] 'an Hegyptian Canaanite', whose native language/s was/were not Arabic, but that of Abraham [ie, Chaldean, see "Ur of the Chaldeees" Genesis 11:28,31, 15:7, 24:4; Nehemiah 9:7 KJB] and even of his mother, ie Egyptian, and possibly even of the langauge of Canaan, having sojourned there.

There were already peoples in the Arabian peninsula [as spread all over], such as the Joktanite [Genesis 10:25-29; 1 Chronicles 1:19-23 KJB], and the Palgite [of Peleg, the Pelegite, Genesis 10:25, 11:16-19; 1 Chronicles 1:19,25 KJB], and even the Albert Barnes Commentary picks up on this, saying, �... The Ishmaelites constituted the second element of the great Arab nation ...�, though according to other and greater evidences, may not even be the "second element", as Albert Barnes says eleswhere, on Genesis 25:6, " ... These descendants of Abraham and Keturah are the third contribution of Palgites to the Joktanites, who constituted the original element of the Arabs ...". Places/cities like "Hazarmaveth" [named after the son of "Joktan", see Genesis 10:26; 1 Chronicles 1:20 KJB] were already in existence then, as others. Moreoever, "Uz" [Genesis 10:22; 1 Chronicles 1:17 KJB], and the "Sinites" [of 'Sin' or 'Sinai', Genesis 10:17 KJB] were also present. Even the children of Ham, having moved down into Canaan, Egypt, and in the Arabian areas would have sojourned there.

In Genesis 17:20 KJB, God promises, "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Since this is so, and there were peoples already in the Arabian peninsula, and Ishmael was not yet made "a great nation", he cannot [logically, evidentially] be "the" [singular, definite article] 'Father of the Arab/s', from a Biblical [KJB] perspective. Is he an ancestor to some who were later born in Arabia, and who spoke a form of Arabic dialect? Absolutely, but it does not make him "the" Father of all the people groups in the Arabian peninsula, even though he was to be a "great nation". If I were to say otherwise, that would be overstatment of the facts, from all sources thus searched.

Even beyond this, when Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, were to be "cast out" [Genesis 21:10 KJB] at the behest of Sarah, and confirmed by God [Genesis 21:12 KJB], they first went into the "wilderness of Beersheba" [Genesis 21:14 KJB], which is where Ishmael "grew" and "dwelt" [Genesis 21:20 KJB], and thus "dwelt in the wlderness of Paran" [Genesis 21:21 KJB, see and compare Genesis 14:5-7; Numbers 10:11-13, 12:15-16, 13:1-3,25-27; Deuteronomy 1:1-2, 33:1-2; 1 Samuel 25:1; 1 Kings 11:17-19; Habakkuk 3:3 KJB], his mother, Hagar, taking "him a wife out of the land of Egypt" [Genesis 21:21 KJB], being her native homeland, and closer to that area. Thus the children of Ishmael's first wife, would be 2/3rd's Egyptian, 1/3 Hebrew, and would speak a combination of Egyptian/Canaanite/Chaldean. Neither Arabian blood, nor language even comes into this mixture at this point, though they were to live in the "east country" [Genesis 25:6 KJB].

Abraham, after the death of Sarah [Genesis 23:1-20 KJB], "again ... took a wife, and her name was Keturah." [Genesis 25:1 KJB], whose sons were "Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah." [Genesis 25:2 KJB], "And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. ..." [Genesis 25:3 KJB], whose names are still found in the cities of the Arabian penisula [see Genesis 25:1-4; 1 Chronicles 1:32,33 KJB], such as Dedanim [Isaiah 21:13 KJB], and Midian, as well as descendants of Amalek [no primary relation to Ishmael [* see below], except through possible later co-mingling], and also of Esau [Edomites, Idumeans], etc. These having no relation to Ishmael's line, except through later co-mingling, among the Ishmeelites, Midianites, Edomites, Egyptians, Persians, Syrians, etc. There are texts which declare that the sons/descendants of Ishmael migrated further into the Arabian peninsula, such as "Kedar", "Tema" etc. whose cities names are named after there, [see Genesis 28:9, 36:3; 1 Chronicles 5:18-23; Job 6:19-20; Isaiah 21:13-17, 42:11, 60:5-7; Jeremiah 2:10, 25:17-33, 49:28-33; Ezekiel 27:21; Psalms 120:1-7 KJB].

The word Arabia, means to mix, to be intermingled, a mixed multitude, and from that we can see this in Genesis 37:25-28, 39:1; Judges 8:21-28; 1 Chronicles 2:17, 5:10,19,20, 27:30,31; Psalms 83:6; Galatians 4:22-31 KJB.

As far as the Bible [KJB] is concerned, it never specifically states that Ishmael himself moved into the Arbaian peninsula, though it is possible being to the "east", but even this of itself would not make him Arabian [Moses was born in Egypt, it doesn't make him Egyptian, and lived in Midian, it doesn't make him of Midian], nor the Father of all Arabians, but simply a sojourner there, his children, according to the Bible [KJB], being of Hebrew/Egyptian/Egyptian [father, mother [Hagar, and the Hagarenes], wife] blood at the first, then later becoming more intermingled among the various people groups who were already in the region [whether partially Egyptian, Canaanite, Joktanite, Palgite, Sinite, etc].


Therefore, with all of this research and documentation [further Islamic and/or Biblical [KJB] genealogical record unto Adam where requested], my Question 004 is as follows:


Thank you for any and all serious consideration.

Edited by Desire of Ages - 15 December 2017 at 2:39pm