Was Jesus� death a real sacrifice? |
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George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
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Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:23am |
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This is the second topic that BMZ brought up.
I find the philosophy of God killing his own son for the mankind very disgusting. A truly Omnipotent God would have simply forgiven the sins. Surely this was ruthless. How can you worship a God who killed his son? I cannot worship such a killer God. If you call that a sacrifice, then it is no sacrifice, for God 'gave' him back his life within three days as told in the story.. You can find all you need to know in this article: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/2littlepain.html It is a response to someone who asked the same question you did. Summary: Let me try to summarize some of these points:
What this leads me to conclude is:
You asked this question before, BMZ, and I answered it but not as fully as this time. Perhaps if you read the article you will understand the sacrifice of Jesus with fuller understanding.
Abraham was ready to slaughter his own son, knowing that the son would be dead and would be gone for ever from his sight. Had he succeeded in killing his son, that would have been the "Greatest sacrifice for God" in the history of the world. It would have shown that God went back on His word and promise, which He did not do. If Abraham had killed his son, Isaac, then the only way God could have kept His promise would have been if God had resurrected or resuscitated Isaac back to life. One last note about Jesus' sacrifice: you do believe that soldiers sacrifice their lives for others, do you not? Would it still be a sacrifice if they knew that after they died, they would live again with God? If you threw yourself in front of a truck barreling down on a group of children and you died and they lived, would you not consider that your death was a sacrifice, even though you thought you would live again? Peace Edited by George |
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Servetus
Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
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BMZ, to me quite understandably, sounds a bit like Pinchas Lapide, whom Hans Kung quotes as having said: �That God needs a human sacrifice to reconcile his own creation with himself, that he, the ruler of the world, cannot justify anyone without a blood sacrifice, is as incomprehensible to Jews as it is contrary to the Bible.� Serv Ref: Kung, Hans, Judaism between Yesterday and Tomorrow, Continuum Publishing Co., New York, 1995, ISBN 0-8264-0788-9, p. 386 |
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George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
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Hi Serv, It doesn't matter what Pinchas Lapide thinks. It only matters what God thinks. Did you read the article? Peace |
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BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
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Servie, but for you again. Pinchas Lapide, the darling of Christian apologists. He strongly supported something that he never believed and remained a hardcore Jew. But he got fellow Christian apologists some kind of "conclusive evidence" for resurrection. That was his off-the-screen performance and doesn't mean that all the Jews believed him. In fact, I would have taken my hat off to Pinchas Lapide if he had found a resurrection storey among his Jewish Prophets of yore. Thanks & BR BMZ
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BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
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George, From you: "One last note about Jesus' sacrifice: you do believe that soldiers sacrifice their lives for others, do you not? Would it still be a sacrifice if they knew that after they died, they would live again with God? If you threw yourself in front of a truck barreling down on a group of children and you died and they lived, would you not consider that your death was a sacrifice, even though you thought you would live again?" Giving one's life to save others, knowing that one would be dead till the Last day, is a great sacrifice in the sight of God Almighty and also in the sight of people. Those people who gave their lives to save others will be rewarded by God Almighty on the Day of Judgment. Here in Jesus' case, both he and the Father knew that he would be dead only for a maximum period of three days. You have to decide whether only the Father knew or both knew. Even if Jesus were "God" himself, still it cannot be a great sacrifice for Jesus knew that he would get up, anyway. It is thus no sacrifice at all.It was not even a human sacrifce for a sacrifice has to be slaughtered. John the Baptist, who baptised Jesus, lost his own head, George and nobody feels any pain for him? If Jesus were sacrifised and was dead, never to return alive or resurrected, I would have considered that a great Sacrifice. Edited by bmzsp |
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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I always thought the point of Jesus' death and resurrection was to prove that death was not the end. That fits well with his earthly actions and teachings, anyway.
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
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George, Looks like it is BMZ day. Good Night. I have to go to bed now. "This is the second topic that BMZ brought up." |
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AbRah2006
Guest Group Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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God is the Most Merciful so it is impossible for God to order the crucifixion of Jesus. After all the Christians claim falsely that Jesus is the son of God so how can a loving father murder His own son for the sake of the sinners? I wonder what kind of God who claims that He is the All Merciful would murder Jesus who is a great prophet of God for the ignorant people! Is God a terrorist? The All Mercifull God will not conspire with His enemies to kill His own messenger! Allah the All Mighty and All Merciful God doesn't need any murders to forgive you. If you regret your sins and pray to Allah and beg for His forgiveness and mercy sincerely He will forgive you. Allah will not crucify any person to death for the sins of other persons for Allah is the All Merciful God. Those that turn (to God) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of God,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by God;- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers. (Quran 9:112) "And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they had earned then surely He would have hastened on their punishment. But they have their appointed time beyond which they will find no escape." ( Quran 18:58) Jesus was not crucified for Allah the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate had saved him. It was Judas who looked like Jesus was crucifed to death : That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;- And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (Quran 4:157-158) Edited by AbRah2006 |
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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