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Was Jesus� death a real sacrifice?

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George View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:23am

This is the second topic that BMZ brought up.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

I find the philosophy of God killing his own son for the mankind very disgusting. A truly Omnipotent God would have simply forgiven the sins. Surely this was ruthless. How can you worship a God who killed his son? I cannot worship such a killer God. If you call that a sacrifice, then it is no sacrifice, for God 'gave' him back his life within three days as told in the story.

You can find all you need to know in this article:  http://www.christian-thinktank.com/2littlepain.html  It is a response to someone who asked the same question you did.

Summary:  Let me try to summarize some of these points:

  1. Sacrifice, in the OT background for the NT understandings of Christ�s death, focused more on the giving element than on the death element.
  2. Sacrifice, in the OT, was essentially transfer of property from the offerer to God, with various methods of �delivery�.
  3. The victim of the sacrifice became God�s possession, and God could do with it whatever He chose.
  4. The nature of sacrifice did not depend in any way on the sacrifice �staying dead��it just had to be transferred to God�s ownership.
  5. The offering had to be something of value/cost to the offerer.
  6. The offerer could expect some later recompense or blessing from God, to �make up for� the current loss to the offerer, and this expectation was an expression of real faith.
  7. People could be offered, and this basically meant a lifetime of dedicated service to God (without a death, obviously).
  8. The actual method of delivery (e.g., burning, waving, elevating) was an act, that did not require on-going or continual action.
  9. In the NT, Jesus is both the Offerer/Priest and the Offering, and God the Father is the recipient.
  10. His death on the Cross is seen as the fulfillment of multiple sacrifices and offerings of the OT.
  11. All of these offerings required priestly action AFTER the death of any victim.
  12. Since the requirements for the ultimate, non-shadow sacrifice included a Perfect Priest and a Perfect human-plus victim, the constraints of covenant ethics and religious ritual would necessitate that the Victim be resurrected (to avoid the problem of Unrecompensed Righteous Suffering) and the Priest be able to continue the post-death activities.
  13. The NT data is very clear that the agonies and terrors of the Cross were significant and horrendous for Jesus, in both anticipation and in the actual experiencing.
  14. The NT data also suggests that the emotional pain elements of this experience are present/available to Jesus today, in His function as sympathizer and High Priest.
  15. The anticipation of resurrection, although it would be comfort and source of strength for endurance, would not lesson the agonies of death�while the experience was happening.
  16. The agonies of this extra-loaded death and the circumstances of that death would likely be significantly more painful, more vivid, more invasive for a pure Hearted and Eternal One, than for us normal humans.
  17. The Father�s full experience of His Son�s pain is a corollary of their intense union (not discussed in this paper).
  18. These events are constantly in the Father�s memory, and indeed, are actually rehearsed daily in the lives of His people.
  19. Even human fathers (parents, loved one generally) experience the phenomena of the never-lost emotional memories of the past, and this re-feeling is not a sign of weakness, but of depth and wholeness.
  20. Although discussions of finite-vs-infinite aspects of this question may be on shaky semantic or epistemic grounds, either of the two major approaches to the use of these terms indicate that the Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross would have been adequate WITHOUT requiring it to be infinite in duration.

What this leads me to conclude is:

    • That the death of Christ on the Cross, in the manner and circumstances of that death, was completely consistent with the OT sacrificial framework;

    • That the NT data supports the view that the Cross was a huge personal pain/cost to the Son;

    • That the theological, ethical, and religious constraints that needed to satisfied in effecting the means of His hope-rescuing, life-salvaging, and heart-renewing work, virtually required a resurrection of the only One �fit� to create and manage the forces/influences within history for this redemptive work;

    • That the on-going work of Christ in the lives of His Close Ones evidence the ever-present reality/availability of that pain to Him;

    • That specific experiences of parents everywhere (i.e., vicarious re-suffering of the pain of their children�s pain, through memory recall) witnesses to the ever-present �cost� of the Cross to the Father;

    • And accordingly, that the term �sacrifice� is not only very much to the point, but is also very much an understatement of what happened in that  unfathomable event we call the �Crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth��

You asked this question before, BMZ, and I answered it but not as fully as this time.  Perhaps if you read the article you will understand the sacrifice of Jesus with fuller understanding.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Abraham was ready to slaughter his own son, knowing that the son would be dead and would be gone for ever from his sight. Had he succeeded in killing his son, that would have been the "Greatest sacrifice for God" in the history of the world.

It would have shown that God went back on His word and promise, which He did not do.  If Abraham had killed his son, Isaac, then the only way God could have kept His promise would have been if God had resurrected or resuscitated Isaac back to life.

One last note about Jesus' sacrifice:  you do believe that soldiers sacrifice their lives for others, do you not?  Would it still be a sacrifice if they knew that after they died, they would live again with God?  If you threw yourself in front of a truck barreling down on a group of children and you died and they lived, would you not consider that your death was a sacrifice, even though you thought you would live again?

Peace



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Servetus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:50am

BMZ, to me quite understandably, sounds a bit like Pinchas Lapide, whom Hans Kung quotes as having said:  �That God needs a human sacrifice to reconcile his own creation with himself, that he, the ruler of the world, cannot justify anyone without a blood sacrifice, is as incomprehensible to Jews as it is contrary to the Bible.�

 

Serv

 

Ref:  Kung, Hans, Judaism between Yesterday and Tomorrow, Continuum Publishing Co., New York, 1995, ISBN 0-8264-0788-9, p. 386 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Servetus Servetus wrote:

BMZ, to me quite understandably, sounds a bit like Pinchas Lapide, whom Hans Kung quotes as having said:  �That God needs a human sacrifice to reconcile his own creation with himself, that he, the ruler of the world, cannot justify anyone without a blood sacrifice, is as incomprehensible to Jews as it is contrary to the Bible.�

Serv

Ref:  Kung, Hans, Judaism between Yesterday and Tomorrow, Continuum Publishing Co., New York, 1995, ISBN 0-8264-0788-9, p. 386 


Hi Serv,

It doesn't matter what Pinchas Lapide thinks.  It only matters what God thinks.  Did you read the article? 

Peace

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 10:27am

Servie,  but for you  again.

Pinchas Lapide, the darling of Christian apologists. He strongly supported something that he never believed and remained a hardcore Jew.  But he got fellow Christian apologists some kind of "conclusive evidence" for resurrection.

That was his off-the-screen performance and doesn't mean that all the Jews believed him. In fact, I would have taken my hat off to Pinchas Lapide if he had found a resurrection storey among his Jewish Prophets of yore.

Thanks & BR

BMZ 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 10:49am

George,

From you: "One last note about Jesus' sacrifice:  you do believe that soldiers sacrifice their lives for others, do you not?  Would it still be a sacrifice if they knew that after they died, they would live again with God?  If you threw yourself in front of a truck barreling down on a group of children and you died and they lived, would you not consider that your death was a sacrifice, even though you thought you would live again?"

Giving one's life to save others, knowing that one would be dead till the Last day, is a great sacrifice in the sight of God Almighty and also in the sight of people. Those people who gave their lives to save others will be rewarded by God Almighty on the Day of Judgment.

Here in Jesus' case, both he and the Father knew that he would be dead only for a maximum period of three days. You have to decide whether only the Father knew or both knew. Even if Jesus were "God" himself, still it cannot be a great sacrifice for Jesus knew that he would get up, anyway.

It is thus no sacrifice at all.It was not even a human sacrifce for a sacrifice has to be slaughtered. John the Baptist, who baptised Jesus, lost his own head, George and nobody feels any pain for him?  

If Jesus were sacrifised and was dead, never to return alive or resurrected, I would have considered that a great Sacrifice.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 10:50am
I always thought the point of Jesus' death and resurrection was to prove that death was not the end.  That fits well with his earthly actions and teachings, anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 10:52am

George,

Looks like it is BMZ day.  Good Night. I have to go to bed now.

"This is the second topic that BMZ brought up."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AbRah2006 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2006 at 11:04am

God is the Most Merciful so it is impossible for God to order the crucifixion of Jesus. After all the Christians claim falsely that Jesus is the son of God so how can a loving father murder His own son for the sake of the sinners? I wonder what kind of God who claims that He is the All Merciful would murder Jesus who is a great prophet of God for the ignorant people! Is God a terrorist? The All Mercifull God will not conspire with His enemies to kill His own messenger!

Allah the All Mighty and All Merciful God doesn't need any murders to forgive you. If you regret your sins and pray to Allah and beg for His forgiveness and mercy sincerely He will forgive you. Allah will not crucify any person to death for the sins of other persons for Allah is the All Merciful God.

Those that turn (to God) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of God,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by God;- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers. (Quran 9:112)

       "And your Lord is Most Forgiving, Owner of Mercy. Were He to call them to account for what they had earned then surely He would have hastened on their punishment. But they have their appointed time beyond which they will find no escape." ( Quran 18:58)

Jesus was not crucified for Allah  the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate had saved him. It was Judas who looked like Jesus was crucifed to death : That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-  And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (Quran 4:157-158)



Edited by AbRah2006
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