Are Muslim circumcised?

AnnieTwo wrote: If yes, why are they circumcised? Annie

Greetings.

Most scholars believe that it should be done, but not having it done, as in the case of some converts, will not prevent you from being a Muslim, though it is highly encouraged that a person has it done some time after they have converted.

It signifies the original covenant made with Abraham (as).

AnnieTwo wrote: Andalus wrote: AnnieTwo wrote: If yes, why are they circumcised? Annie Greetings. Most scholars believe that it should be done, but not having it done, as in the case of some converts, will not prevent you from being a Muslim, though it is highly encouraged that a person has it done some time after they have converted. It signifies the original covenant made with Abraham (as). The original covenant does not include Gentiles.  The Rabbi's tell me that circumcision was only meant for Jews and not for Gentiles.  Ishmael and his descendants are not part of the Covenant and do not need to be circumcised. Circumcision is a sign and a condition of the Covenant.

supposition and appleaing to authority.

1) Ishmael was the first born of Abraham, to suggest that the youngest was circumcised but never the eldest is an absurd assertion (bear in mind that an assertion is not evidence nor is it an argument).

2) The Rabbinic notion surrounds the idea that the sons of Ishmael rejected Torah, thus not being a part of the covenant. The problem with this idea is that the Torah was revealed to Moses, and their point is simply an invented formality to dismiss Ishamel. Keep in mind that some Rabbis consider Ishmael to not be a gentile, although not part of the "Torah covenant", which is why you have commited the fallacy of "appealing to authority". Furthermore, many Rabbinical works declare Christianity as idolatry, and at the very least, border line idolators.

Annie2 wrote:     Sign: You shall be circumcised through the flesh of your foreskin. This shall be the mark of the covenant between Me and you. Genesis 17:11 Condition: This is My covenant between Me, and between you and your offspring that you must keep: You must circumcise every male. Genesis 17:10 'Throughout all generations, every male shall be circumcised when he is eight days old. [This shall include] those born in your house, as well as [slaves] bought with cash from an outsider, who is not your descendant. [All slaves,] both houseborn and purchased with your money must be circumcised. This shall be My covenant in your flesh, an eternal covenant. The uncircumcised male whose foreskin has not been circumcised, shall have his soul cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.' Genesis 17:12-14 Circumcision was to be done on the 8th day according to the Hebrew scriptures. No Gentile can be a part of the Covenant by circumcision.

Supposition. Your assertion is based upon an erroneous assumption that I covered in point one and two.

Furthermore, Genesis is not under the Torah.

Annie2 wrote: I brought this up because it seems to be such a big "to-do" that Christians are not required to be circumcised. Thank you for your reply, Annie

Christian are inheritors of beliefs formed by ex-pagan gentiles who were spiritually "picky" and therefore formed their ideas about faith based upon thier own likes and dislikes. You see, Christians claim to follow Jesus, yet they resemble little, if nothing, about him. So when a claim is made that they follow him, a good question is, "how do you follow him", and the replies that I have recieved over the years have been extremely superficial and too general.

Peace  

AnnieTwo wrote: Andalus, And here I though you were a nice man and would be polite.  The Jews know what their Scriptures mean.  They are very clear in this regard.

Forgive me. I never thought being thorough is impolite. If I have insulted you, then please point out my error and I will apologize.

The Jews interpret their scripture, as does every religous group. They know their scripture through their method of interpretation. Your statement has also deflected from the point I made: The Torah was revealed to Moses and not to Abraham. 

The covenant made by Abraham to Gd was not the same as that made by Moses to Gd. Circumcision was practiced before the Torah was revealed.  

Ishmael was the first born. It is absurd that Abraham would wait until the second born to have his child circumcised, and then not do it to the eldest son.

Not all Rabbis agree with Ishmeal being gentile or not, which would be a play in semantics given that a Jew is someone bound by the Torah. Abraham was not bound by the Torah. Ishmael and Issac were from the same father. Rabbinical interpretation also plays into arguments that try very hard to dismiss any claim to Abraham from the other son. Convenient.

Annie2 wrote: The Covenant was through Isaac and not Ishmael.  The descendants of Ishamel can still be part of the covenant as Christians are today through faith in Messiah Jesus.  God always intended that Gentiles be included, but only through the Messiah Jesus. [QUOTE] Assertion. I know what you believe, but your beliefs do not provide any real substance to the discussion concerning Ishamel. Ishmael was the eldest son of Abraham. I fact, he and his descendents have more claim through blood line to claims of prophets and Gd than ex-pagans who believed that Gd sent Himself to earth to die so He could be a perfect sacrifice to Himself so He could forgive everyone of their sins.  Christians are a part of a "replacement theology" covenant, where they have replaced the children of Israel, as Gd has sent Himself to earth to "become the word". This is important as the ex-pagans wanted to negotiate their lifestyle with Gd, thus removing the laws that were not convenient for them. Since you appeal to the authority of the Rabbis, then you perhaps you should research their views on Jeus as the messiah and the prophecy claims that the church makes. Annie2 wrote: [quote=Andalus] Christian are inheritors of beliefs formed by ex-pagan gentiles who were spiritually "picky" and therefore formed their ideas about faith based upon thier own likes and dislikes. You see, Christians claim to follow Jesus, yet they resemble little, if nothing, about him. So when a claim is made that they follow him, a good question is, "how do you follow him", and the replies that I have recieved over the years have been extremely superficial and too general. Nonsense.  There is nothing pagan in the New Testament.  Christianity is the answer to paganism.  One God and one God only.  Follow God's Messiah Jesus.  I follow Jesus by following his teachings and commandments in his Gospel presented in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Annie

Sure there is Annie. The idea of a perfect "man sacrifice" is steeped in pagan belief. The idea of trinity is influenced by pagan belief. The whole idea that one is really not one but a compound one shown by manipulation of Hebrew grammer and volumes of never ending thesises is a huge evidence that the church fathers were uneasy about their own beliefs.

If you follow the teachings of Jesus according to the gospels, then perhaps you might help me to overcome my doubts by going through the points I have put up concerning prophecies in the NT.

Peace