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Apologetics, Isaiah 7:14, and Obfuscation

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Andalus View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 June 2006 at 11:38pm

Greetings all.

Recently I put forth a point that presented problems for Church teaching, especially evangelicals, regarding Matthew's quote of Isaiah 7:14, and its claim that it is a prophecy fulfillment. The only real desire for a dialogue about it was nothing more than an abrupt "paste" of a link. After an invitation to discuss that link, I have recieved silence. No doubt the person is unable to use the link in a real debate, and no doubt the user will appeal to a dislike of me as a reason not to debate the material at the link, material they claim they know very well. I will now move on without the user. The link is here:

 http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fabprof2.html

Keep in mind that 99% of the piece goes on and on and on and on with why "almah" must be strictly interpreted as "virgin". The piece literally rambles with various scenerios and speculation as to why the hebrew word is "virgin", it is an utterly incoherent manner in which the piece tries to argue from an ad nauseam or repetition or ad infinitum approach. I have yet to meet anyone who has been able to use the piece to form an argument. The key thing to remember is that I am willing, for the sake of argument, to to give this point away. In the end, the point given is a double eged sword that causes more problems for the claim. Also, keep in mind that the piece only dedicates about 1% to the contexual delima which is the point I bring forth.

The Context demonstrates:

1) That it makes no difference if the female discussed in 7:14 is a virgin or not (the end result and point of the verse is not dependent upon a strict interpretation of the female being virign)

2) That the verse is irrelevant to the people of the late second temple

3) The verse talks about a sign, not a miracle, relevant to the people of the time period.

 

The context: Two armies from two kingdoms are set to destroy Jerusalem and the davidic throne.

Gd offers, not a miracle, but a sign to the reigning king of Jerusalem, and the representative of the Davidic line.

The Sign: A child will be born to a woman. Before the child reaches the age of puberty, the two armies will be destroyed.

Conclusion: According to the Hebrew Scriptures, this did indeed occur.

The sign, according to any common sense reading, according to any serious exegesis, even with the most conservative of uses of the charity principle, is not the birth, but the time line given by the child's age that coincides with the destruction of the armies.

The birth of the child has no bearing on the armies of the two northern kingdoms, but the child does.

According to Christians, it is the birth that is the sign, because the birth is to a virgin, and this is a prophecy about Jesus being born centuries later after the people in Jerusalem are all dead and forgotten about, after the siege had ended. For the sake of the argument, lets say the verse is about a child born to a virgin, and this is the sign. Lets also assume it is a prophecy.

This implies

1) There were two virgin births, one at that time and one in the late second temple. This would mean the birth of Jesus was not unique.

2) There was one virgin birth, and somehow, the Hebrews were supposed to be able to render almah as young woman who was not a virgin, and then almah as virgin for the double prophecy meaning, which would be relevant to a future generation that had nothing to do with those who were held captive behind the walls of Jerusalem. I would like for Christians to show me the text that allows someone to to render almah as non virgin and then as virgin for the prophecy interpretation.

If the child born was all together part of a prophecy and has nothing to do with King Ahaz, then

1) Which two warring kingdoms of the north were destroyed when Jesus reached the age of puberty?

2) If this part of Isaiah 7 is not part of the prophecy, then please, I would like for Christians to provide me with the methdology that allowed them to rip the point of the story, the destruction of the two warrring armies, out of the verse as a non prophecy, and only keep the child born to a virgin seperate?

If "almah" in chapter 7 must be strictly interpreted as virgin, then the entire sign should be rendered meaningless. Lets assume that chapter 7 is about a virgin birth. This would mean that the woman being a virgin is a critical point for 7 to work.

I will demonstrate by now assuming this is not a virgin birth in Isaiah 7.

The birth is not by a virgin.

Before the child reaches puberty.

The two warring armies of the north are destroyed.

The child reaches the age of puberty.  

Conclusion: The end result in the story occurs with or without the word "almah" being rendered "virgin".

Matthew's claim of Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy is obviously a mistake. No one with any serious intention of learning can look at this claim and look at the actual verse and declare it a prophecy about a virgin giving birth.

The main themes of the story are entirely irrelevant to late second temple. What would be the significance at the moment before Jesus knows right from wrong? Would this imply that Jesus did not know right from wrong and had to reach puberty before his true divine self would kick in? What two warring kingdoms were destroyed (armies) before Jesus knew right from wrong? What would Ahaz care about Jesus and late second temple period? Why would Isaiah as Ahaz for a sign for people living in 2 CE?

The answers do not exist, and giving the point away that almah is virgin causes more problems, and unanswered questions.

 

It is late and, insha'Allah I will finish this with an edition in the next couple of days. I look forward to any serious comments.



Edited by Andalus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2006 at 2:33am

Salaam Alaikum, Andalus,

In principle I agree with your thoughts. You may find me taking a  different approach to answer you but I am sure you will understand me.   

Christianity is still facing problems created from the misinterpretation of the Jewish Scriptures by the Church Fathers, who intead of hanging on to the true God of Noah or The God of Abraham or The God of Sinai, went out trying to find evidence and proofs to elevate Jesus to the rank of God, just because Thomas and Peter said something which even the two never understood. There is not a single joint statement from The Famous Twelve. It also adds problems for the thinking Christians, whose hearts, minds and souls are in search of truth to find God Almighty.

The rock-solid foundation of Judaism is based on the well-established relationship between God and the Jews, through Moses, their Prophet. Christianity, on the other hand is like a building built up or erected on two foundations, not a solid rock. No one can ride two boats at the same time with one leg in each boat. Christianity believes in the Jewish Scriptures but does not follow it. It picks and chooses what is really supportive and the rest is discarded. What is picked and chosen up is interpreted as per the wish of the Church fathers, not as per the explanations of the Jewish prophets. It increases the reverence of Jesus instead of increasing the reverence of God Almighty.

If one were to accept the Christian Testimonies, then one would be rejecting the Jewish Testimonies which are the truth as told by Moses and practically shown by God at Sinai. Thus, having two testimonies, the OT and the NT bound together to form the Bible on two foundations is causing differential settlement of the structure and the Tower of Christianity is becoming like the Leaning Tower of Pisa.  

The Church had earlier gone through the entire Jewish Scriptures and chose verses that were in it's own interest to prove the point, had them re-worded accordingly. Alma is not the only one, there are many more. Isaiah 53 is another good example. It talks of the sufferings of Israel only but it is credited to and applied to Jesus, when there was even no existence or mention of Jesus at all.

In my opinion, the verse had never pointed to Mary at all. She was not even a young woman, she was a little girl, perhaps only 14 when Jesus was born. The child was NOT even named Immanuel at all, even though it was clearly commanded in the "prophecy". Had Jesus been named Immanuel (which means God with us), that might have helped Chrsitianity but the Church fathers perhaps did not know or forgot how to capitalise on that although they did try to use Isaiah 7:14 to their advantage. Even many Christians have begun to question that.

Best Regards

BMZ

  



Edited by bmzsp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2006 at 3:42am

Andalus,

Here rises another question:

I could not find any child born and named Immanuel in the Jewish Scriptures and History or I might have missed reading that. Have you looked into this?

If there were really no Jewish Immanuel born, then the prophecy becomes false as it did not come true.

Perhaps, knowing this fact, the Church Fathers decided to use that prophecy to show that the OT scripture supported the "virgin" birth.

BMZ

 



Edited by bmzsp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2006 at 7:22am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

Andalus,

Here rises another question:

I could not find any child born and named Immanuel in the Jewish Scriptures and History or I might have missed reading that. Have you looked into this?

If there were really no Jewish Immanuel born, then the prophecy becomes false as it did not come true.

Perhaps, knowing this fact, the Church Fathers decided to use that prophecy to show that the OT scripture supported the "virgin" birth.

<>BMZ
 


I think I pointed out that fact to you BMZ.  The prophecy is not false.  What does "Immanuel" mean?  Start there.

Muslims and Christians believe in the virgin birth.  What is your problem with it?

You keep saying why didn't Mary call her son "Immanuel."  How do you know that she didn't?

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2006 at 8:41am

Annie,

From you: "I think I pointed out that fact to you BMZ.  The prophecy is not false.  What does "Immanuel" mean?  Start there."

Ok! Immanuel means God with us but does Immanuel mean Jesus and vice versa? Definitely NOT!

God had always been with all of us since the far-distant past and still is with all of us and will always be there in future.

Examples: God was with Noah, God was with Abraham and God was always there with Moses. God was also there with Jesus and God was there with Muhammad.

Thus Noah would have said,"Immanuel", Abraham must have said, "Immanuel" and Moses would have also said "Immanuel", everytime since God was with him most of the times. Jesus would have also said,"Immanuel" as God was with him also.

Muhammad used the equivalent word of exact meaning in Arabic which was "In-nal-laa-ha ma-aa-nah", which in English means "God with us".

But you cannot say that since Jesus was with us, therefore he was God! You started knowing him only when he was thirty. When he was a child, no one knew he was Immanuel. This is true because they started "worshipping him" very late only after he was thirty-two. 

There is not a single shred of evidence in the entire NT that he was ever called Immanuel by his mother Mary. There is not a single quotation from Mary that the young child was God with her or any statement by Joseph or his people that "Jesus, the child was God with us". You will not be able to refute me as you have nothing to stand upon on this from the entire NT.

From you, Annie: "Muslims and Christians believe in the virgin birth.  What is your problem with it?"

I believe in the virgin birth and I have no problem with that at all.

From you, Annie: "You keep saying why didn't Mary call her son "Immanuel."  How do you know that she didn't?"

I have already written above. Please prove to me quoting from the New Testament that Mary called her son Immanuel. You will not be able to, Annie.

 

 



Edited by bmzsp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2006 at 11:39am
BMZ,

I have already written above. Please prove to me quoting from the New Testament that Mary called her son Immanuel. You will not be able to, Annie.

Of course, there is no record of her calling Jesus that, but that is an argument from silence.  Prove to me that she didn't call Jesus Immanuel.  You can't do that either.

Besides Matthew says that "they" will call him Immanual, not "she" will.

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2006 at 12:35pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo AnnieTwo wrote:

BMZ,

I have already written above. Please prove to me quoting from the New Testament that Mary called her son Immanuel. You will not be able to, Annie.

Of course, there is no record of her calling Jesus that, but that is an argument from silence.  Prove to me that she didn't call Jesus Immanuel.  You can't do that either.

Besides Matthew says that "they" will call him Immanual, not "she" will.

Annie

Annie, With this type of logic almost anything can be thought to be true.

There is no record that they didn't call Paul "Immanuel", so prove to me that they didn't.

Besides, who is "they"?

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2006 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Originally posted by AnnieTwo AnnieTwo wrote:

BMZ,

I have already written above. Please prove to me quoting from the New Testament that Mary called her son Immanuel. You will not be able to, Annie.

Of course, there is no record of her calling Jesus that, but that is an argument from silence.  Prove to me that she didn't call Jesus Immanuel.  You can't do that either.

Besides Matthew says that "they" will call him Immanual, not "she" will.

Annie

Annie, With this type of logic almost anything can be thought to be true.

There is no record that they didn't call Paul "Immanuel", so prove to me that they didn't.

Besides, who is "they"?



"They" are all Christians.  When Jesus was incarnated with the Word of God, God "was with us."

Annie
14If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 1 Peter 4

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