Preordainment and Destiny

Assalamoalaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,
Dear brothers and sisters in islam,

I have a question about the pre ordainments of God, and this has confused me as to my existence and purpose.

I read somewhere that all what is happening in this world or that which will happen in future is already recorded in a guarded tablet, by God. And this guarded tablet existed even before the creation of anything else, that is this world or its inhabitants.

If this is true, I want someone to please expalin to me, how a person's deeds are important in taking him to paradise or hell. Further, in this connection what is the worth of 'free will' which is granted to us by allah.

I would appreciate if all answers are according to the reports of hadith and recordings of Quran.

Jazak allah khair,
Nausheen

Greetings and peace,


This is a nice topic nausheen, but contains much potential for quarrels.

One of the reasons i do not believe in preordainement is that it does rule out free will eventually.
There are a lot of "semi"arguments to save the appearance but indeed if you follow the thinking correctly then it is so. There are also hadeeths that hint at such an aspect.

The ones that "defend" the theory of preordainement make argumentation like this mostly:

1) Allah knows all that happens and will happen and he knows it before it happens.
2) You dont know that so you should strive to do the best you can
3) In the end all will happen as Allah has forseen it anyway

Also the argument can be found that Allah makes it easy for you to follow the path he ordained, so easy that eventually you will follow it.

As such the idea is that within "this worldly context" you have a free will, but that eventually all that will happen is already known and prewritten.

Problems with this view are that it makes most of the religious doctrine paradox if not even obsolete.

Anyway you wanted some hadeeths :-)
Hadeeths that speak against free will and also make the idea of "punishment" or paradise paradox in my view:

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 4:621, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam, 'You are Adam whose mistake expelled you from Paradise.' Adam said to him, 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His Messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly; yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my creation?' " Allah's Apostle said twice, "So, Adam overpowered Moses."

The Noble Qur'an - At-Takwir 81:28-29

To whomsoever among you who wills to walk straight,
And you will not, unless (it be) that All�h wills, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Hadith - Bukhari, Narrated Anas bin Malik

The Prophet said, "Allah has appointed an angel in the womb, and the angel says, 'O Lord! A drop of discharge (i.e. of semen), O Lord! a clot, O Lord! a piece of flesh.' And then, if Allah wishes to complete the child's creation, the angel will say. 'O Lord! A male or a female? O Lord! wretched or blessed (in religion)? What will his livelihood be? What will his age be?' The angel writes all this while the child is in the womb of its mother."

Hadith - Al-Tirmidhi #5758, Narrated AbuHurayrah

When Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) was asked when the office of Prophet had been established for him, he replied, "When Adam had not yet had his spirit joined to his body


Hadith - Al-Muwatta 46.4

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ziyad ibn Sad from Amr ibn Muslim that Tawus al-Yamani said, "I found some of the companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saying 'Everything is by decree.' " Tawus added, "I heard Abdullah ibn Umar say that The Messenger of Allah said, 'Everything is by decree - even incapacity and ability,' (or 'ability and incapacity')."


Arguments for a kind of "limited free will"
Hadith - Tirmidhi and Ahmad, Narrated Matar ibn Ukamis

Allah's Messenger said: When Allah decrees that a person is to die in a certain land, He creates a need for him to go there.

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 6:469, Narrated 'Ali

We were in the company of the Prophet in a funeral procession at Baqi Al-Gharqad. He said, "There is none of you but has his place written for him in Paradise or in the Hell- Fire." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we depend (on this fact and give up work)?" He said, "Carry on doing (good deeds), for everybody will find it easy to do (what will lead him to his destined place)." Then he recited "As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah, and believes in the Best reward from Allah (i.e. Allah will compensate him for what he will spend in Allah's way). So, We will make smooth for him the path of ease. But he who is a greedy miser...for him, the path for evil." (92.5-10)



As said nausheen this is a topic that moved many people, inspired many arguments and fights.


Peace
Deist

Assalamoalaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

Dear brothers and sisters,

The idea that Allah knows everything that happened before it did, and everything that will happen, does not mean limited free will for us.
Humans have the choice to choose whatever path they want to take, but Allah knows what they going to choose before they do.
The Hadeeths you mentioned do not interfere with these rules, but you need to think about them a little bit more.

Salamoalaikom.

I would agree with lamees3's statement above.


-mrb

[Quran 2:115] To God belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of God. For God is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

Greetings and peace,

Anyway we are not talking only about "allknowing" we are talking about "preordainment"
This means that all is arranged or established before it happens. THis is the same as predetermination so to speak.
I would encourage you to reread the hadeeth:

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 4:621, Narrated Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam, 'You are Adam whose mistake expelled you from Paradise.' Adam said to him, 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His Messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly; yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my creation?' " Allah's Apostle said twice, "So, Adam overpowered Moses."

As i said preordainement doesnt allow for a real free will. The argumentation about allknowing is a try by some to "repair this" because they dont know what preordainment is.

Anyway also the allknowing is not allowing for a free will if you follow it logically to the end. By the way there is no real definition of "allknowing" so the term doesnt make sense.

A problem is also that the purpose of humans to be on earth is to worship and only that (accorind to Quran). If this is the case and paradise awaits those that do it and hell those that dont then in case all is preordained before or even only known before it is obsolete to run all that testing as the result is already clear.

Anyway i am a nonmuslim anyway, so lets not overindulge into that topic as it will only stirr up emotions.

Peace
Deist

On 3/21/2002 12:27:00 AM, deist wrote:
[snip]
>Anyway also the allknowing is
>not allowing for a free will
>if you follow it logically to
>the end. By the way there is
>no real definition of
>"allknowing" so the term
>doesnt make sense.
>
>A problem is also that the
>purpose of humans to be on
>earth is to worship and only
>that (accorind to Quran). If
>this is the case and paradise
>awaits those that do it and
>hell those that dont then in
>case all is preordained before
>or even only known before it
>is obsolete to run all that
>testing as the result is
>already clear.
[snip]

For someone somewhat smart in faith, this should be clear to you. It makes sense that God knows what we are going to do, and it makes sense that it can be written down before it happens.

However, it's always been my knowledge that we don't live in total free-will, and that really the only choices we have per-say boil down to our faith. There, we choose, and God already knows our choice, however this would be something he doesn't command, but is left to our choice. Everything else would be commanded.

Faith is a choice. It makes sense to me that we make our own choices, and then we follow God's commands. But just because our actions are already written down, doesn't mean were automatically set in one-line, it just means God already knows everything already, and he choose to have it all written down in the first place.

Furthermore, it's futile to argue about why we're here. If God choose to put us here for a test, then that is his command, his choice, and his will and reasoning is greater than yours, or mine, could ever be.


-mrb

[Quran 2:115] To God belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of God. For God is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

Greetings and peace,

It is not as easy as you want to make it appear. Many questions hang on that one.
It doesnt only require being "smart in faith" as you put it but also some logic and reasoning.

But since you yourself state that you believe in not really having a free will then i think there should be no problem anyway :-)



Peace
Deist

Bismillah,

It is wrong to say that everything we do has been predetermined by Allah, and that we only act within His will and what He has imposed on us. Had it been so, then it would be unjust that we should be questioned for something that He had determined for us. But Allah is the Most Just of all judges. Hence He does not hold us to account for something in which we have no choice. This makes it clear that our freedom of choice is very real. Indeed, we know that to be true in the way we determine what course to follow in different situations. Our freedom of action is indeed a manifestation of Allah's will who has decided to give us such freedom.

However, Allah knows in advance what we are going to do in any situation. That is because Allah's knowledge is absolute, which means that nothing is added to it as a result of any event, because that event is known to Allah before it takes place. Yet that knowledge does not have any effect on our freedom of choice and action, because that freedom is given to us by Allah Himself, who wants us to exercise it in order to realize our humanity(AN).

Wama Taufiqi Illa Billah

Ibnbatota

Greetings and peace,

ibnbatota you make the usual "free will" and "allknowing" theory.

When you ponder it really then you will see however that it contains a paradox.

Anyway as far as i know the topic was closed by Nausheen anyway.

Peace
Deist

On 3/19/2002 5:41:00 PM, NAUSHEEN wrote:
>I have a question about the pre ordainments of God, and this has confused me as to my existence and purpose.
>I read somewhere that all what is happening in this world or that which will happen in future is already recorded in a guarded tablet, by God. And this guarded tablet existed even before the creation of anything else, that is this world or its inhabitants.
>If this is true, I want someone to please explain to me, how a person's deeds are important in taking him to paradise or hell. Further, in this connection what is the worth of 'free will' which is granted to us by Allah.<

As salamu alaikum wa ramatullahi wa barakatuhu. As far as I know, yes, every thing is pre-recorded. But Allah has created us to worship Him, not for mere sport or folly (see Qur'anic verses below). He has allowed us freedom to choose between right and wrong (based upon what's in the Qur'an). The choices we make during our lifetime is what we'll be held responsible for on the Day of Judgement.

Every good deed we do will be rewarded many times over. We'll get punished for our bad deeds once (ie: for each individual bad deed, we'll get punished only once for it). Many verses and hadith refer to the Day of Judgement and our deeds. For more than what I'm posting, you may wish to check the database on the main page.

3:83 Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.

21:16 Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between!
21:17 If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)!
21:18 Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood does perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us).
21:19 To Him belong all (creatures) in the heavens and on earth: Even those who are in His (very) Presence are not too proud to serve Him, nor are they (ever) weary (of His service):
21:20 They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever flag or intermit.
21:21 Or have they taken (for worship) gods from the earth who can raise (the dead)?
21:22 If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!
21:23 He cannot be questioned for His acts, but they will be questioned (for theirs).

44:38 We created not the heavens, the earth, and all between them, merely in (idle) sport:
44:39 We created them not except for just ends: but most of them do not understand.
44:40 Verily the Day of sorting out is the time appointed for all of them,
44:41 The Day when no protector can avail his client in aught, and no help can they receive,
44:42 Except such as receive Allah's Mercy: for He is Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

11:123 To Allah do belong the unseen (secrets) of the heavens and the earth, and to Him goes back every affair (for decision): then worship Him, and put thy trust in Him: and thy Lord is not unmindful of aught that ye do.

22:18 Don't you see that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth, the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as Allah shall disgrace, None can raise to honour: for Allah carries out all that He wills.

Dear all,
Assalamoalaikum wa rahmatullah,

Thank you for all your responses, however I am sorry to say that what you have written is all what I know, and it has helped nothing. My confusion is still where it is.

You see, what Lamees3 says about free will, to my understanding is worth just this anamoly. Consider a story shot into a movie. the director knows how it is going to start and how it is going to end, so what the actors are doing is just that they are inacting their part. They do what they do, because that is the script of that movie. The director in real life is God, and the actors are we. So from begininng to end, we may not know what is next, but we will do exactly what we are supposed to do , and meet the end exactly the way He (the director wants us). So how much worth is the free will of that character in that story? To me looks like just a superficial free will and not a real one.

I am sorry if i have offended anyone, it is my lack of understanding and no fault in your explanations, that is causing worry, may be i will look deeper into the whole thing.

Deist,
I liked your response, but it only echoes my understanding, and does not clear the confusion. i know all the hadith you have quoted, and all the arguments, you have brought forth. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am still where i began with in this thread.

More help is needed please.

Jazak allah kahir,
Nausheen

Greetings and peace,


Nausheen, i think you are looking for a "solution". A solution that fits islam.
What i tried to do was rather to say that this "problem" as presented has no real solution (in my view) but that some people use "workarounds".

It is as you said with the script of a film.
Also again i would like to emphasize that we do NOT talk her about Allah knowing all that we do only, but we talk also about him ordaining it before we do it.
THats why i mentioned the hadeeth about Adam and Moses twice.

The implications of such a doctrine are far reaching.
I myself cleary do not believe in preordainement on a divine level combined with a free will. THere is either the first of the second but not both.

If people say that there is a preordainement then the "free will" would only be an illusion. Problems with punishment, hereafter and the sense of life would follow directly.

On the other hand talking about free will rules out preorainement.
As for me Allah / God is not needed to be "allknowing" ( a term that cant even be defined) or "preordaining all" in order to be worshipable, i have no problem believing in a deity that does not have the charactteristics above.

Perhaps you may want to have a look here: http://isgkc.org/pillars_qadar.htm They try to explain it also but logically seen it also fails. I also made some texts about that topic once looking at it from a distant perspective (without regard to islam, christianity or any religion in particular). Peace
Deist

On 3/21/2002 5:44:00 PM, NAUSHEEN wrote:
>...The director in real life is God, and the actors are we. So from beginning to end, we may not know what is next, but we will do exactly what we are supposed to do , and meet the end exactly the way He (the director wants us).<

As salamu alaikum wa ramatullahi wa barakatuhu. No one knows if our choices are "as Allah wants". That knowledge is with Allah alone. We can only hope that we (as Muslims) make the best (and Islamically correct) ones, insha Allah.

>So how much worth is the free will of that character in that story? To me looks like just a superficial free will and not a real one.
>I am sorry if i have offended anyone, it is my lack of understanding and no fault in your explanations, that is causing worry, may be I will look deeper into the whole thing.<

Nausheen, in a way, I agree with Deist. You may be wanting to find a "solution" (as he put it) to something no one really has the answer to (all except Allah that is). BTW, no offense taken by me (my view is you only seek greater knowledge and understanding yourself).

The best way I can answer you (which is not a scholar's opinion of the Qur'an and sunnah) is that Allah wants to see our reaction and our choices with what ever He has preordained for us. Example: wealth, poverty, death of loved ones, etc (as said in the Qur'an, we'll be tested in various ways throughout our lives).

I've read if we remember Allah when things are going good (wealth, happiness, etc), and are continually are greatful to Him for what we've been given, He'll remember us when things are hard (poverty, times of crisis, etc). So, depending upon our choices, patience, perseverance, etc, will depend upon how we are judged before Him on the Day of Judgement.