Veil: the View From the Inside

amah wrote: Angela wrote:  The Quran specifically says Bosom, while only Hadiths specifically say only the hands and face are to be uncovered. Dear Angela, Women in those days used to cover their heads and not their bosoms, hence bosoms has been specified. Also the arabic word "Juyub" includes the head. Kindly do a search on that word. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons, their husbands sons, their brothers or their brothers sons, or their sisters sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful. (mohsin khan) Another translation: And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful. (m.h shakir) 24:31 And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. No where in the above verse does it state that, a headscarf is required.  There are many things here left open to interpretation and scholars disagree on the Fard of the veil, scarf and concept of Purdah (seculsion of women).  Modesty is Obligatory... but there are arguements on both sides to the headscarf. The difference of opinion between scholars is only over the face veil, there is absolutely no dispute over covering the head. Ask any scholar. Hijab is not about a headscarf, I agree Allah did not mention headscarf, He has left it upon us how we cover, but it is made obligatory to cover. Also no one is judging anyone according to hijab. Sister Fatima mentioned before why we encourage others towards hijab (and every other command of Allah ) is because we are also commanded to enjoin good. The hijab is an act of obedience to Allah like other obligatory acts. `It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allaah and His messenger have decreed a matter that they should have an option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger, has indeed strayed in a plain error.' (S33:36). In the above verse Allah mentions "and His messenger have decreed a matter". So how do you know what the Messenger (saw) decided ? That we come to know through hadith. Allah has asked us in the quran to obey Him and His Messenger.  And obey Allah and the messenger (Muhammad SAW) that you may obtain mercy.  (  ���� �� �����  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #132) (there are many such verses)Please explain what it means? How do we obey the Messenger (if we follow only Quran)? Peace.

Bismillah,

ONE EYE!!!!  This was NEVER done by the prophet's wives!!!  Guys, who aren't wearing the garb they prescribe for us ladies, come up with this crazy stuff!!!  ONE EYE!!!!

Clearly, you did say it this time, those sleazy women went around nearly naked but with a head scarf draped on their heads, slipping off and on.  The head gear was cultural, not modesty based!  You don't have to understand that, but that is how it was!

Modesty, however, is a very simple thing.  It involves our clothing and our behavior.  Now, we need to encourage a good respectful mixing of these two things instead of a blind fear of retribuition for not following the cultural majority in wearing a head scarf as being the be all and end all of the standard for modesty when it is not.

I have seen simple, plain, modest women without scarves, and I have seen flashy, gaudy, flirtatious, even prostitutes wearing jilbabs and head scarves.  Please think about it.  But herein the point is, many of us have valid reasons, not excuses, for believing as we do.  And herein I renew my request that we merely show respect for each other on this point.  I am obeying my beloved Prophet Muhammad and All-Powerful Creator.  You think you are also.  This is the point from where we can begin to discuss things based on mutual respect.

Salaamu Alaykum

Suzanne wrote: Salem, "And whatever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatever he forbids you, leave it. And fear Allah: truly Allah is severe in punishment. " [Qur'an 59:7] In one tradition, the Prophet Muhammad is quoted as saying: "...If the woman reaches the age of puberty, no part of her body should be seen but this --- and he pointed to his face and hands."

Bismillah,

It always amazes me that when people don't like something in the hadith, the fact that it is weak "daeef" is important to them, but when it is the only thing supporting the traditional garb, it is okay that it is weak, "daeef".

If a "saying" doesn't make any sense and denies the mercy of Allah, The Most Merciful, I don't accept it.  That's my chain that I follow.  The Holy Quran says that men and women are equal in piety.  Whereas the "hadith" say that hell is filled with women.  As a Muslimah, I accept the Quran.  Period.  When hadith contradict it, I leave them alone.

Since I read that hadith in the hadith which says that Muhammad forbade the writing down of his personal sayings, I have taken that saying to heart more than the rest.

Salaamu Alaykum

Sinful,

I couldn't agree more.  I could show you pictures to illustrate my point, but they usually fall on deaf "eyes"?

I've seen a trend in high fashion Hijabs in my travels through Islamic websites.  How is it guarding your modesty if you are drawing attention to yourself with bright colors and sleek styles?

The point is not to be noticed.  Where, I can wear my jeans, a baggy shirt and ponytail and walk down the street unnoticed by men passing me by more than any other person on the street.  Or I can wear a bright hijab like a beacon saying "look at me" and have every man, woman and child in Salt Lake City look in my direction.  If I was in Amman, Jordan or Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, the Hijab/Niqab would not draw notice...unless I'm wearing bright colors, then I'm still going to catch someones eyes.

You still have to look at the cultural/religious points here.  If Muhammed had been sent to the peoples of South East Asia or Amazon Jungle, there would have never been an abaya/niqab/burqah.  Simply, they would be deadly to the native women from their environment.

Even many of the Hijabs I've seen would have been life threatening in the sweltering heat and humidity.  In the desert, they had a cultural and practical purpose. 

Why do you think that women would cover their head and not their breasts, Amah?  Because when the wind picks up and starts whipping the sand around, you need the protection for your eyes, nose and mouth.  You could whip around your scarf and whola, you were protected.  And when it was hot and the sun was shining down, it protected you from heatstroke. 

However, in other environments, there is a reason no such headcovering was used.  It was simply impractical and unneeded.

In some places of India, Brazil and Asia, it would be better to shave your head than to wear a headscarf. 

I really believe that sometimes Middle Eastern sisters do not seem to grasp that the purpose of a hijab can be completely defeated in other areas.  Its meant as a protection, that post 9/11 got women killed.

Its meant to keep you from catching the eyes of men, when it some areas you stick out like a sore thumb.  Its meant to be a symbol of modesty, that somes in 1000s of colors and styles.

Again, I am not being rude about hadiths, but the only true place you can point as to the Hijab (ie scarf in this case) and abaya being obligatory is the hadiths.  Now, if Muhammed forbid them to be written down and the Quran is decidedly the most perfect book with all you need to know.  Then a Muslimah does not have to take a scholars word on the hadiths. 

Why is it that God removed the corrupting influence of the early priesthoods in Islam and gave people a direct relationship with them through prayer and the Quran, and yet, you seem bent on recreating a priesthood through scholars and Imans?

Assalamu Alaikum,

In Islam, we have to follow Qur'an and hadith. That is the main stream Islam. There are many things that are not in Qur'an, but only in hadith. For example, how you pray, how you perform hajj, how Prophet ( SAW ) dealt with his wives etc etc. Yes, we should follow authentic ahadith. If a hadith contradicts Qur'an, that is not accepted. At the same time, if the source of any information is only an authentic hadith, but that is not in Qur'an, we have to accept that hadith. We don't have to necessarily depend on Scholars, but yes, their help can reduce time and effort to do our own research. Scholars interpret Islam to us who have spent all their life to do the research and teach us just as scientist learns science and explains to us. Why do we go to Einstein to learn Physics?