conversion to islam

[QUOTE=myahya]

��.
This verse does not disprove following the prophet. It proves, however, that the prophets were supported by angels and the spirit.

If following the prophet is following God, why we should talk about the prophet, we can stick to words of God. And if there are differences, means we should not follow that because is not following God.

Quran (2:118) and those who have no knowledge say: why doth not allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us? even thus, as they now speak, spake those (who were) before them. their hearts are all alike. we have made clear the revelations (by spiritual talking=BAEIANA) for people who are sure. Again as you see he is capable to talk in their hearts to everybody who is sure

The meaning of this verse is exactly in opposite direction if what you want to say. This English translation has problem. �Bayyene� generally means any clear sign. The verse is saying that: Although �Bayyene�  (very clear Signs like miracles) are made for people (who become sure),  but those who have no knowledge say :" Why does Allah not speak to us? or why does any sign not come to us (directly)?" this is same as what the people said before (people of other prophets). Their hearts are alike.

Bayyeneh means revelation. Means making bright something for someone in any way, then we can`t create boundaries for the meaning and limit it to miracles by a definition based on human mind.

Now, please put your suggestion meaning for the word مِن دُونِ   and then you will see yourself!  Do you need more examples?!  If it`s not clear , it�s easy to explain more.

First of all, Quran (11:13) and (2:23) places what is revealed to the prophet in opposite category of Men Doone Allah. Then it asks people (who deny them or are not sure about them) to bring the same with help or witness which is not from Allah, if they can. Where does it show or prove that �following the prophet� is Men Doonellah?!!!

What is revealed to the prophet is not in category of Men Doone Allah. But human , prophet or other leaders , are Men Doone Allah, because they are not creator, they can`t do anything with their own ability or knowledge. Everything is good in prophet is from God and everything is bad in prophet is from himself. (4-79)

مَّا أَصَابَكَ مِنْ حَسَنَةٍ فَمِنَ اللّهِ وَمَا أَصَابَكَ مِن سَيِّئَةٍ فَمِن نَّفْسِكَ وَأَرْسَلْنَاكَ لِلنَّاسِ رَسُولًا وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ شَهِيدًا ﴿۷۹﴾

whatever good reaches you, it is from allah, and whatever evil reaches you, it is from yourself. we have sent you (prophet muhammad) as a messenger to humanity. allah is sufficient for a witness.

Interesting is that Quran (9:16) also confirms and emphasizes what I am saying. It confirms that �following the prophet� does not fall in the meaning of Men Doone Allah. Let us see the translation:  �Do you think that you would be left to yourself while Allah does not know those among you who strive and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers? And Allah is well-acquainted with all (that ye do).

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تُتْرَكُواْ وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللّهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُواْ مِنكُمْ وَلَمْ يَتَّخِذُواْ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلاَ رَسُولِهِ وَلاَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلِيجَةً وَاللّهُ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ ﴿۱۶﴾

did you suppose that you would be left before allah has known those of you who fought and did not take a confidant other than allah, his messenger, and the believers? allah is aware of what you do.

Here Quran is talking about someone who fought for God, and did not take a confidant except God, his messenger, and his believers. Messenger is still Men Doone Allah, but taking him as a confidant is appropriate because he can save the secrets and help believers in the righteousness also the other believers are appropriate confidants. But if you tell us that this means messenger is not Men Doone Allah, then we should say �the believers� are not Men Doone Allah as well! Then who is Men Doone Allah?!!!

Why you escape from the meaning of this word?! And searching for witnesses from Quran to tell us that the meaning of this word is not the same as an Arabic word does?!

Quran (10:18) is again talking about worshiping not about following. Therefore, if one worships a prophet (or anything who is not God), then such an act is Men Doone Allah.

In some verses Quran says about worshiping somebody or something other than God and in some verses says about following somebody other than God.

But the Question is �why leaders try to tell people that they have to follow the prophet?� are they worry about following of words of God? Or they are worry about following of words of human which they try to use them for rule on other people?

God never say disobey prophet in what he said and somebody wrote them as Quran! Because Quran is not change able (as wrote in her) and you can use that up to the end. But God has not asked us to obey from anything had been written and which is from human (including stories which you believe in them) because they are change able.

At the first: say I am just a human like you �and �at the last is the reason: �don`t worship someone beside your God �, obviously there are people who do this and the message is for them, hopefully you are not among them.

There might be people who have done so or have such a tendency. Where did I talk about worshiping the prophet?!! The act of �worshiping a prophet� is Men Doonellah but the act of �following the prophet� is Men Ghebalellah (from God and God�s command, opposite of Men Doonellah). No prophet has told people to worship them, even Isa Massih (as).

Is this phrase �Men Ghebalellah� from Quran or somebody made it to complete the Quran?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 God did not use this phrase in Quran, he used Men Doone Alllah instead, because the meaning was not as the phrase: Men Ghebaleallah!

Let me please do the rest of our post in another time, actually its 2 am and I am tired now.

God bless you

peacemaker wrote: Everyone, Please follow the section and the forum guidelines and stick to the topic.   Peace

agree, but conversion from Islam , from my view is conversion from hadith, stories and every thing they write and say this is following your prophet! For this I should tell about following the prophet. But if its not related, I ask to transfer these posts to another topic please.

Peacemaker, I also think that it would be much better if this discussion was in different thread with its own topic. I did not have idea that it might be a lengthy discussion.

If following the prophet is following God, why we should talk about the prophet, we can stick to words of God. And if there are differences, means we should not follow that because is not following God.

If we want to stick to words of God we should notice that �following the prophet� is word of God because it is His clear command in Quran. Meanwhile, God tells us in Quran that the meaning of the words of God and practical practicing of His words could be taught by the prophet. In Quran, God introduces the prophet as the best teacher (of His words) and best example for us.

Bayyeneh means revelation. Means making bright something for someone in any way, then we can`t create boundaries for the meaning and limit it to miracles by a definition based on human mind.

I did not create boundaries for this word. It is �any clear sign� or �revelation�. The thing is that (2:118) is talking about Bayyeneh which has come to the prophet not to the heart of other people. Then people say why did it not come to them?!! And Quran blames them for asking so.

What is revealed to the prophet is not in category of Men Doone Allah. But human , prophet or other leaders , are Men Doone Allah, because they are not creator, they can`t do anything with their own ability or knowledge.

God has given them the required ability and knowledge for being followed. Taking the meaning of Men Doone Allah as �not being Allah� does not necessitate or prove that we should not follow them. Based on your argument, Quran is also Men Doone Allah because obviously Quran is not Allah and is Men Doone Allah. Why do you use the verses of Quran since they are Men Doone Allah?!!

Everything is good in prophet is from God and everything is bad in prophet is from himself. (4-79)

Unfortunately there is a misleading in this translation of (4:79). The verse never proves that anything is bad in the prophet. The translation is "whatever from bad things that crosses you (collides with you)". It does not say "whatever which is bad in you". These two meanings are totally different.

Why you escape from the meaning of this word?! And searching for witnesses from Quran to tell us that the meaning of this word is not the same as an Arabic word does?!

As I asked before, why do you follow Quran when it is not Allah? I am not escaping. You see it becomes obviously meaningless if you want to apply meaning of this word as �not being Allah� everywhere. If you want to stick to this meaning that �Do not get help from anything who is not Allah� then why do you go to doctor if you feel you are sick? A doctor is Men Doone Allah if you use such a definition.

They are worry about following of words of God because if one does not follow the prophet they violate the word of God which clearly states many times to follow the prophet. Here it seems you would like to escape from this clear commandment of God in His words and you are making boundaries for it without an acceptable reason. This is itself interpreting the Quran Men Doone Allah and based on self desires.

Is this phrase �Men Ghebalellah� from Quran or somebody made it to complete the Quran?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Quran it is �Menallah� or �Men ladonellah� which means �from God�s side�.

Quran (4:75) And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

I did not say that these verses (2:108,109) are only referring to the time when the prophet was alive. It is our responsibility to take out the message of these verses for our today life. The message I understand is here:

�Do not interact with the prophet based on your own desires. Follow the prophets instead of asking what you prefer more. In other words, do not order what you desire, instead be submitted and follow what they tell you to do.�

As you see the problem is not prophet himself (he is a dear friend for God) the problem is following him in a time that he is not alive and can`t prevent us from the mistake in teaching or learning the words of God.

First, you are suggesting that many verses of Quran only refers to the time when the prophet was alive. But it is against the holiness of Quran as you said previously.

Second, this is not a problem. We have to do our best by doing serious research to find the truth in history. Once a narration from the prophet is proved to be true, we will use it for both understanding and practicing. If we unconditionally put all narrations and Sunnah of the prophet away and stick to Quran, then we have to interpret only based on our own understanding which of course does not prevent us from mistakes. The difference is that in the first case we have done our responsibility and Allah knows it and would guide us, but in the second case we have escaped from the responsibility that Quran put on our shoulders. One day we will be asked about it.

The facts that the prophet has told people regarding guidance and asked people to do are not changeable. By �following the prophet� I do not mean to follow what WE think we should follow. I mean to follow what the prophet has really told us to do.

Believers suppose to be believers of God, not believers of prophet, as prophet said himself in the Quran and you say also that it`s truth.

According to Quran the believers are supposed to believe in God and the prophet. See for example:

Quran (4:136) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Worshiping means love somebody as you love your creator (God)

The love in creator should be the first and strongest love of a believer.

As you see all of them say the same thing: Allah has made something lawful and the prophet forbid that, and the reason is not serving God,  and is not seeking God`s please, it is to please his wives!

It seems you do not know Allah has commanded in Quran that everyone should take full care of their partner and satisfy them. Considering this law, the prophet had been already obeying God when he decided to satisfy his wives. Therefore, the verse (66:1) by no means shows that the prophet disobeyed God. Disobeying can only be proved when one knows what the will of God is but intentionally disobeys for the sake of any other reason.

But here there is another aim, the aim and the message of this verse is warning us about making holly personality for the servant of God.

The prophet is already proved to be holy as soon as it was proved that he is a prophet. But in my opinion, one of the aims of this verse and its following verses is to warn us about making holy personality for the wives of the prophet.

Quran seriously commands to love the prophet, to follow him, to obey him and to take him as the best example. This is not something that one can deny.

Moses:

And do you believe that he was Sonni, or Shiee or in other groups?!!

The prophet was the main reference himself. Through Quran and his own sayings and sunnah, by God�s will and permission, he commanded people to follow him. The labels (sonni, shiee ,�) were made after his death on the subject of following which is a must. The problem is that some Muslims did not follow the prophet (from beginning till today) even though they knew and know how to do it, and some (may be for example only-Quran Muslims) try to erase the question instead of finding the true answer (while it is possible to find the true answer).

Do you believe that Muhammad said �Hi� to himself several times a day?!!

Allah and angels send salaams to the prophet and we are also commanded to do so. It is in Quran.

The problem is: you trust in someone who is not God or his prophet, you trust in narrators and in some people who they recommend the narrators to you. And unfortunately in other groups, they have the other narrators that they believe in them!

I do not trust on narrators unconditionally. I say ALL narrations (regardless of labels and sects in Islam) are to be investigated seriously and academically. First, from scientific point of view, it is possible to determine the level of authenticity of a historical narration. Second, with the light of Quran, the level of authenticity and the help of intellect, experts can distinguish between corrupted/fabricated narrations and factual ones.

If one does not pay attention to a series of narrations (despite of numerous numbers of historical evidences) for the sake of one narrator or one collection or one specific book, then you are right. However, as I said, escaping from the question is not the solution.

God could save him up to the end, but did not do this because of your exam!!! You think you have not exam?!!

Let me highlight the difference between my and your belief about the criterion of this exam.

I say that the exam was (and is) this:  Who really follows the prophet (an accurate following) after his death.

You say that the exam was (and is) this: Who forgets about following the prophet after his death.

In spite of very clear unconditional verses of Quran which commands us to follow the prophet and numerous historical narrations (confirmed to be authentic), you are inviting me to refuse all of them and follow what you are thinking of the criterion of this exam. Can you see what you are expecting others to do?

All of them say believe that should be the follower of Prophet (just like the other religions) , but can you see Muslims as a unique nation?!! NO�. you are not one nation who used to call as �Muslims� anymore! now you are different sort of Muslims, you have one prophet and one God, but different �Narrators� and story tellers!! You trapped in your opinions and can`t fix that because Satan robbed from your mind these words:

The split does not have anything to do with true narrations because true narrations reflect the historical facts. The split originated from the fact that some people did not follow the prophet accurately after his death.

Furthermore, if any individual Muslim was an only-Quran Muslim, then you would have different opinions in every aspect of Islam per individual Muslim, resulting in diversity as large as the number of verses of Quran times the population of Muslims in the world.

About Quran (6:159) and (30:32), in my opinion, those who has refused to follow the prophet after his death are those who split the religion.

Quran is not created, Quran is revealed. Because it was from the first and will be up to the end.  

I disagree. Quran is both created and revealed. How and in what form it was from the first. Bring evidence.

Because it is not anything unless God.

Do you believe that Quran revealed itself and Quran created you?!!!

I believe that words of God are not different from God himself

Why do you call them words of God then? Call them God and worship them.

You do not differ between God and His words!!! If you believe so you must also believe that Isa Masih (as) is God because Quran clearly says that he was a word of God:

Quran (3:45) Behold! the angels said:" O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of the company of those nearest to Allah."

if you believe that word of God is created, then tell me about this: 16-40. As you see creation is doing by use of word.

Quran (16:40) does not prove that word of God is creator. From one side it shows that the act of creation by God can be the act of telling �be� like the creation of Isa Masih (as). Who is the subject here? The subject is not the word but God who TELLS the word �be�. From the other side, Quran shows us that a word of God (e.g. Isa Masih(as)) can be created by Him by telling the word �be� (Quran(3:59)).

for this reason �the word of God� refer to the word which was from the first and by him everything has been created as you can read it at the first verses of John gospel.

Neither Quran (16:40) nor first verses of John gospel are reasons for such a wrong claim. Some Christians have made the same mistake speculating that Isa Masih (as) must be God; only a wrong guess!!

This is not important if bad is crosses the prophet or remain in him, the important thing is, this is from him, from Muhammad himself.

When a bad thing crosses the prophet it is proved to be from outside not originated from inside, ponder on the requirement of crossing and colliding please. Let us also read the verses before this verse. They are about Muslims who complain about Jahad and participating in wars. They said it was from God if there were good things crossing them and from the prophet if there were bad things crossing them.  Then God blames them and said that all of them are from Allah:

Quran (4:78) " Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say," This is from Allah".; but if evil, they say," This is from thee"( O Prophet ). Say:" All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

History says that the prophet was also badly injured in wars and they eventually lost a war (Ohod Jahad) because some did not obey the prophet completely. The issue of obeying the prophet is absolutely confirmed when you read the next verse:

Quran (4:80) One who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over them.

You see? Even in these verses the issue of following and obeying the prophet is commanded. Ponder please.

you Muslims as if make him more than a human when I see you believe in his holiness from the first!

Holiness does not contradict his humanity!! The prophets are both human and holy.

I don`t believe in Doctor, I believe to God who will let him know about my problem.

This is not Mendoonellah because it is the will of Allah and is supported by Allah, and you perform it by His permission. That is why following the prophet is not Mendoonellah.

But you believe and trust on people who narrate something from 1400 years ago and now are dead!

As I said before, I disagree that every individual Muslim should rely on all narrations unconditionally.  However, denying all narrations is a worse fault. The true narrations are distinguishable. Otherwise, history is not admired at all and no historian scientist (who cites past studies) exists unless they are st**id!!!

Then �men Ghebale llah� is not in Quran , but Mendunallah is in Quran. And if it was with the same meaning of �Menallah� or �Men ladonellah� God would not say �Doon� which means �below� because its different to �Laddon� which means �completely the same� or �Men� which means �from� isn�t it?!