Is it conceivable that ISIL are created by West?

Abu Loren wrote: For discrediting Islam and Muslims and turning the world against Islam. For this purpose I think Israel has more of a claim than Europe or America but I find it astonishing that they will not engage with ISIL,ISIS,IS. They are trying to send poor Kurdish Peshmurga fighters who are poorly trained part-time soldiers to fight instead. This is a win win situation for the West as only Muslims will die.

ISIS is killing lots of westerners too.

Actually Muslims do stand up for each other because Muslims are the only true brotherhood left. This is another reason why it is very difficult to fathom the intentions of ISIL,ISIS,IS. Like I keep saying no true Muslim would do what they are doing. I agree with you that mere opposition to their Caliphate would make any Muslim an infidel according to them. Another reason why their Islam is skewed to say the least. They are not practicing anything from the Qur'an and Sunnah so once again I ask the Question if they are Zionists?

ISIS quotes the Quran and the hadith all the time to justify their crimes.  Verse 5:33 is a particular favourite of theirs.  As for killing Muslims, they quote the following hadith:

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.
Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Number 4339

I expect you're going to tell me that this a weak or false hadith.  Hence my earlier question in Islam for non-Muslims, "list of authentic hadith".  It seems to me that Muslims pick and choose among the hadith to suit their purposes.

Ron Webb wrote: ISIS is killing lots of westerners too.

NO. Not lots. So far they've only killed a handful.

ISIS quotes the Quran and the hadith all the time to justify their crimes.  Verse 5:33 is a particular favourite of theirs.  As for killing Muslims, they quote the following hadith: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed. Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Number 4339 I expect you're going to tell me that this a weak or false hadith.  Hence my earlier question in Islam for non-Muslims, "list of authentic hadith".  It seems to me that Muslims pick and choose among the hadith to suit their purposes.

It is not a weak or a false Hadith.

I don't understand why ISIL would use that particular verse and that Hadith. It says to kill those who fight against Allah and the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and I don't know any modern Muslim fighting Allah and His Prophet. The ones who are causing corruption in the land are ISIL and if they are Muslims then should cut off their hands and feet from opposite sides. They have no right to use that verse and the Hadith.

This tells me that they don't know much about Islam and further puts suspicion on them.

Abu Loren wrote: I don't understand why ISIL would use that particular verse and that Hadith. It says to kill those who fight against Allah and the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and I don't know any modern Muslim fighting Allah and His Prophet.

As I said, if you're fighting them, then in their view you are fighting Allah.  It is the nature of extremism to believe with such certainty that God is on their side.

This tells me that they don't know much about Islam and further puts suspicion on them.

In other words, if they disagree with you, then they disagree with Allah.  Be careful, Abu.  You may be right, but you don't speak for God any more than they do.

(Edited to correct the last sentence: "you don't speak for God", rather than "don't speak for God".)


Edited by Ron Webb - 28 December 2014 at 9:06am

Abu Loren wrote: The thing is I fail to understand how these *****s can't be defeated. The Syrian and Iraqi armies and various other local factions are fighting them and I don't believe that they are invincible. Something is seriously wrong.

Assad's forces are happy to let the extremists become the only opposition faction. They are deliberately not attacking them. The focus of the Assad forces is on the other opposition groups.

It's the same as the Egyptian model; Give the people the choice between a government by a dictator or by a nuts theocracy. Most will choose the not the  theocracy path. For very good reasons.

Assad will hold power as long as there is no easy choice of a modern inclusive democracy.