The Messiah is the Way, Truth & Life |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
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This is called "circular reasoning". You tell me the NT says X about sacrifice. I show you the Hebrew Scriptures says Y, where Y contradicts what X says. You tell me I have an incomplete understanding, and so you quote X again.
So what the NT tells us is correct and agrees with what the HS tells us because the verses about the Messianic age are "symbolic" and "spirtual"? Interesting. Could you point out in the following verses what in the verse tells us it is "symbolic". If you say it must be because the NT says that sacrifice has been abolished forever, then I will call you on "circular reasoning", because I have not spotted anything in the following verses that gives a single indication that it is all "spiritual" or "symbolic". Jeremiah 33:16-18, Zachariah 14:20-21, Ezekiel 43-44 They all speak of "literal" things.
This is what the Messiah meant in Matthew 16 when addressing Simon Kephas (Peter, "the Rock"). Simon became Simon Kephas upon Believing in the Messiah-ship of Yeshua! Indeed, that is the formal definition of a Christian -- he who believes that Yeshua really truly is the Messiah! So, Simon Peter's profession of faith in Matthew 16 does not mean that somehow Rome becomes the supreme overlord of all Christendom... rather, it is merely an Apostolic Testimony, to wit, an Example of Righteousness and Belief that other Christian Believers are to follow. In so doing, they join the Messiah (spiritual corner-stone) and the Apostles (spiritual foundation stones) in the building of God's Holy [Spiritual] Temple and partake in the [Spiritual] sacrifices of humility and prayer. (Note: by word origin, humility, from Latin, just means grounded, in English; he is humble who is Earthly and [Well] Grounded -- as opposed to having lofty opinions of themselves in their self-built "castles in the sky".) So, Yeshua the Messiah did rebuild the "Temple" and re-institute "Sacrifices"... but he did so Spiritually -- heeding those OT Messianic prophecies "according to the sense, not the letter". Ezekiel 43 13 "These are the measurements of the altar in long cubits, that cubit being a cubit and a handbreadth: Its gutter is a cubit deep and a cubit wide, with a rim of one span around the edge. And this is the height of the altar: 14 From the gutter on the ground up to the lower ledge it is two cubits high and a cubit wide, and from the smaller ledge up to the larger ledge it is four cubits high and a cubit wide. 15 The altar hearth is four cubits high, and four horns project upward from the hearth. 16 The altar hearth is square, twelve cubits long and twelve cubits wide. 17 The upper ledge also is square, fourteen cubits long and fourteen cubits wide, with a rim of half a cubit and a gutter of a cubit all around. The steps of the altar face east." So we have literal measurements, but this literal measurement is for a spiritual temple? If Jesus is the temple, what on his body has these specific measurements? 18 Then he said to me, "Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: These will be the regulations for sacrificing burnt offerings and sprinkling blood upon the altar when it is built: 19 You are to give a young bull as a sin offering to the priests, who are Levites, of the family of Zadok, who come near to minister before me, declares the Sovereign LORD. 20 You are to take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar and on the four corners of the upper ledge and all around the rim, and so purify the altar and make atonement for it. 21 You are to take the bull for the sin offering and burn it in the designated part of the temple area outside the sanctuary. All I find are literal instructions about an act that you say have been abolished? So tell me what in this verse allows you to deduce that it is a spiritual, metaphoric instructions? You tell me I have an incomplete understanding, and your evidence is simply re-quoting the NT, and then labeling the verses I gave you as "spiritual". 1) You want Jesus to be a literal blood sacrifice. 2) But all the effects are only "spiritual", hence the "curse" on Adam has the spiritual part lifted, but somehow we all still taste death and feel pain and toil in the feild for our food. 3) The literal blood sacrifice requires a literal alter. (there was not alter in the narratives). 4) The Messianic age according to the Hebrew Scriptures will bring about a sacrifical system once again with complete descriptions of "literal" sacrifices and the measurement of the literal alter that is needed for a literal sacrifice. But you say that my understanding is incomplete because all of the literal descriptions of the messianic age are not really literal, but spiritual, all based on the idea that your belief contradicts what your book says. There really is nothing for you to make this call with expect that it conflicts with your theological outlook and notion of the messianic age. I hope you will provide me with a better reason to label verses that are quite specific and liter as "spiritual" other than they conflict with your inital premise about the Massiah. Peace |
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Bismarck
Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286 |
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I answer this with the Christian Doctrine of the Priesthood of Believers, the bullwark of which is 1 Peter 2:9:
And regarding "continual sacrifices", I would offer Hebrews 13:15:
Thus, two of the Messiah's head followers, Simon Kephas, "the Rock", and Saul Paulus, "the little", both seem to be indeed interpreting Jeremiah 33:16-18 spiritually. I suspect you are right about Hebrews 10:5 being garbled. With that in mind, however, I think the main thrust of Hebrews 10 is still quite clear. In the following, please recall that Leviticus 17:11 only says that "the blood ... maketh atonement for the soul", but does state the blood actually washes away the sin. It is as if you were to get a stain on your garment, and so Almighty God begins to turn away from your dirty appearance, but then you offer Him a sacrifice, and He then deigns to forgive and tolerate your uncleanliness. Such is what Leviticus 17:11, God-breathed or otherwise, does claim.
I have argued elsewhere that the Messiah's ministry was a direct rebuttle to the Temple and its sacrifice cult. The Messiah cleansed the temple (Matthew 21:12-17) and then foretold its doom when the unrueful Priesthood still denied the Calling of John the Dunker, or 'Baptist', and then damned themselves with their own words (Matthew 21:18 - f.f.). And, indeed, Titus and the Roman Legions fulfilled the Messiah's fore-telling (Matthew 24:1-2) in 70 CE when they sacked Jerusalem and tore the Temple down. Furthermore, the Messiah presented himself as the "Sacrifice to End All Sacrifices" and the "Intercessor to End All Intercessors", thereby utterly obviating the Temple of any further relevancy. Clearly, the coming in of the Messiah was the going out of the Temple, which has remained rubble since that time, throughout all the years of the Christian faith. The one is anathema to the other, and they cannot co-exist. Those who would rebuild the Temple must first destroy Christianity, etc. And here in Hebrews 10:1-9 we see yet more proof of our deductions. In the vein of Hosea 6:6, "For kindness I desired, and not sacrifice, and a knowledge of God above burnt-offerings", Saul Paulus here argues plainly that the Messiah has "taken away" Temple sacrifices, and replaced them with "doing God's Will". And this is the heart of Islam -- as I understand it. That is, the Messiah came to Israel to obliterate the Temple cult and Right Israel back onto the path of Islam -- doing God's Will. Such is what I hear, at least. So, at the end of the day, I am arguing that the Messiah came explicilty to obliterate the ritualistic and legalistic Temple cult, with its concern for numerical minutae, and re-introduce pure uncorrupted Islam -- doing God's Will. The Messiah came to "take away" the ossified literalisms the Temple priesthood clung to, and (re-?)establish pure Islam. You argue for a literal interpretation of Jeremiah 33:16-18. But upon the strength of 1 Peter 2:9, Hebrews 13:15, and Hebrews 10:1-9, I counter that the Messiah's head followers clearly favored a spiritual interpretation utterly at odds to the Temple cult. For consider, also, Hebrews 9:8:
So, in short, I see in the conflict between literalism and spiritualism the very conflict between between the Old Covenant, the Covenant of Works (continual blood sacrifices), and the New Covenant, the Covenant of Grace (continual prayer and belief). Note, lastly, that 1 Peter 2:9, mentioned above, references Exodus 19:6:
Now, please put this in the context of the words of John the Dunker in Luke 3:8:
This is what Saul Paulus refers to repeatedly in his letters when he talks of (spiritual) "Adoption" to "sonship" with Almighty God. Why? Because a literal interpretation of Exodus 19:6 would be that the Hebrews were a "chosen kin-folk" by blood... whereas what John the Dunker is warning his listeners against is this very "laurel-resting" complacency of thinking that one is automatically a "made man" merely by virtue of calling Abraham his forefather. Almighty God judges by the heart (Luke 16:15; 1 Samuel 16:7; Proverbs 21:2; Acts 1:24; Romans 8:27). Therefore, I link literalism to the argument John the Dunker is lamenting, namely saying "I am a son of Abraham, and I sacrifice regularly in the Temple, meeting the letter of the Law, so I am set".
and Romans 7:6:
So again, as with the "Gospel of Barnabas", we have a conflict between reading the Law "as to the sense, rather than to the letter". The letter says, "burnt offerings [on an altar of this and that dimensions]"... The sense says, "offer up to Almighty God the 'sacrifices' of prayer, praise, and a broken spirit [Psalm 51:17]". The very "Good News" of the Messiah, as I see it, was freedom from the heavy and oppressive overburden of the Law's legalistic ritualism, itself based upon strict literalism. As with Hebrews 10:1-9, the New Covenant cast out the million and one rules of the old... and ushered in a New Covenant founded on merely one precept: do God's Will. WHERE's THE ALTAR? As for the importance of the altar, I wonder if Pilate's washing of his hands in Matthew 27:24 is a reference to Psalm 26:6,
This would make the Messiah, who is called the "cornerstone" or "capstone" of the new Spiritual Temple of the Body of Believers, equal to the "altar" of the Spiritual Temple. I do not believe that such a statement would be inimicable to Christians, but I will ask.
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Bismarck
Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 286 |
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On my own, I will guess that the "bowls before the altar" are those described back in Numbers 7:84-5:
I will guess further that the "bowls before the altar" were used to cook sacrificial foods. If that is the case, then Zechariah 14:21 is echoing this, talking again about sacrifices to God being boiled in the pots of all Jerusalem and even all Judah. The part about "all pots" being Holy to Almighty God seems to me to echo 1 Peter 2:9 and Exodus 19:6 about the Priesthood of Believers, for all pots will be Holy, not merely those in the Temple! The House of the Lord, by spiritual interpretation, is just another reference to the Spiritual Temple of the Body of Believers, all of whose bowls are Holy enough to receive the consecrated sacrifices... which, by spiritual interpretation, are exactly the Eucharist. I will have to ask around. |
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