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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Points: 2368 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2010 at 9:11pm

Mandela also had great ideas and abolition of aparteid was a great achievement initially. BUt now the blacks do to the whites as they had done to them. Don't call that progress.

Martha, this is not true.. In fact having studied South African history the white folks of South Africa would be in far worse straights then they are now.

What you fail to see if what the colonial legacy has left and wrought on places like South Africa, much of Africa as well as parts of Asia. To suddenly eliminate corruption is almost impossible. Many people have tried and it is awfully difficult because unlike us-US or the UK, with its vast wealth (built on colonialism I might add) we have had untold wealth in comparison.

When I studies South Africa history during apartheid, I truly believed that the transition would have been a violent one. And it thanks to God, did not. The situations are economical and very complex.  There are very few ways to a. do mass education suddenly, convince those on the top to give up the status/wealth one has c. to not tell those who have been placed on the bottom, to wait, be patient.

And apartheid was an intense system controlling masses of people through horrible oppression and violence. As Desmond Tutu spoke on a show about the Truth Commissions, its a very hard mindset to break. Its like the family that the parent beats the children and they beat their children and so on and so on. That is South Africa. Actually its quite amazing all those white people were not slaughtered.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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martha View Drop Down
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Points: 1140 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2010 at 2:15am
Sign,

Obviously I just don;t get what your getting at. You keep bringing up dress styles.

Self made history? I didn't make it up. LIke I said everyone (including historians) have their own views.

I remember using Wiki before and thought it was you who told me not to use it. Anyway, no big deal.

I think our difficulty is that you have one view I have another.

Mandela was just an example of how things turn around.

some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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martha View Drop Down
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Points: 1140 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2010 at 2:24am
Hayfa,

Whites used to oppress blacks. Blacks now oppress whites.
Why do you think otherwise?

Blacks could not get good jobs before. NOw whites can't and migrate.

And why must people always blame the old colonies? There are plenty of things going on in the world right now. It is those things we should be concentrating on not criticising historical events. That is so easy to do.

some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Points: 3352 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sign*Reader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2010 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

Sign,

Obviously I just don;t get what your getting at. You keep bringing up dress styles.

What you wear is a big part of the economy...Isn't it! Or you are totally clueless about this?
Big fancy malls in big British colonial Indian cities used to sell English made fancy clothes and other house hold stuff that was not anyway a help to the locals but to the workers in Manchester, Birmingham or wherever factories were then...Of course profits for the British owners and the crown were astronomical with almost free raw materials from the colonies and finished goods in English factories and back to a huge colonial market without a competition aka as monopoly which is illegal beside the board game !  Did you get the view?
All the bureaucratic employees were expected to be dressed like the colonial masters, suits ties and hats the whole nine yards to be in the good books of the masters( To be called Sahibs)...Are you with me so far? You know why I can say all this ?
& that took a big chunk of their salaries and that engendered a new sub class of corruption, the kickback system to pad the life style which included the booze and what have you! And live like the masters in big fancy houses!

This was brought to halt by Gandhi's landing in India leaving behind his suit and tie of his practice as South African barrister in dust bin!
 I may add it was not accepted in the Jinnah or his Nawabi  supporters and the things are obvious where is Pakistan and where India today! It is long subject that may need a separate thread!

 And you unsuccessfully launched the monkey wrench in my response to BJMcR about the simplicity adopted by Gandhi as tool Why?

... for his cause he needed to make the system dysfunctional...Where did he learn all that? ANd you say otherwise without understanding the nuts and bolts or just arrogance!
Do you know who was Neru? Again you ignored Kamala Nehru's work!
It was a replay of "the Boston Tea Party" thing if you care to remember history!

I am not telling you should be anti UK; but you have to stand on some principle and you need to explicitly define what it is?

By your responses I gather that British did NOT have a colonial India but a some sort of free trade Alliance!Wink

I asked you to complete your sentence below and you ignored:
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

You should know India exported rich cloth to the Brit E...
Question
This is an incomplete sentence.....
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

and the alliance was beneficial to both nations..

What alliance? Can you be specific?Question

Quote Self made history? I didn't make it up. LIke I said everyone (including historians) have their own views.

No historians can't get away any more with their unsubstantiated views, who told you that? You are the one who have problems with Hadith too if unsupported right you can's have both ways unless you are hedging your bets at a casino game!
Quote I remember using Wiki before and thought it was you who told me not to use it. Anyway, no big deal.

As I said for a straight information here Wiki is fine but controversial theological things and class work it is not!
A clear explanation or reference beside Wiki will fly but trailing off without a conclusion is sophomoric personality and no more discussion!
It will be poor educational source for the rest of the visitors here, if you get my point if at all!

Quote I think our difficulty is that you have one view I have another.

Hey try again, what is your view? if you can complete your statements with Question marks!

Quote Mandela was just an example of how things turn around.

This again is a meaningless statement!
 South Africa is still an apartheid state to some extent! A friends daughter just came back from South African trip and what I am told there are places and beach fronts where coloreds can be arrested! It is all the big capitalist and their agents are keeping the lid on that powder keg! I may have more details later when I see her!



Edited by Sign*Reader - 11 August 2010 at 3:30pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Points: 2368 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2010 at 7:12pm
Martha, I bring up colonialism because the mindset and effects are still happening today. Colonialism existed in my lifetime and yours. Apartheid ended in the 90s you don't change a mindset of violence overnight. You don't change a "color" based system overnight. It will take generations, as we attest in the US that people are still discriminated against.  Look at British society.. think of some of the historically bad things they did do. Things you or I would find immoral and bad. Well it took awhile to change a majority of peoples' view. Its not going back to the past but  the legacy is there. And if you don't think the legacy of apatheid is not there in the minds of all South Africans you are living in a different world. 1994 is not that long ago. And this is true for many countries.

Here is an excellent Us Congressional Paper on South Africa.  If you want to say white people are bring discriminated against that is good, but bring some outside source. In a country where 90% of the population is nonwhite and most black people live in poverty, where 18% of adults -18-45 are HIV poverty you have to show this oppression. In South Africa they face 25-40% unemployment. Very complex problems.

I think this paper gives an excellent overview: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL31697.pdf

To say they cannot get good jobs show me that their unemployment rates are way higher then the black people. Maybe they cannot get god jobs, cause like everywhere else, they've dried up.  I am fine to change this, but show me some data.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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