Apologetics, Isaiah 7:14, and Obfuscation |
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Patty
Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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AnnieTwo said: "The personal name of a child would not be Immanuel. Rather, the name Immanuel describes the child's nature and function." Yes, you are right, Annie. Just as Jesus is also referred to as the Prince of Peace, Light of the World, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Counselor, etc. The list goes on and one, but those are adjective sayings describing Him...not His name. I suppose that is where some of the confusion may come into the picture. God's Peace to You Annie.
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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So, are you saying that this verse says something, but means something else? Because it says the virgin shall conceive a Son, and name him Immanuel. But that's not what it means? Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Patty
Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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From St. Luke, Chap. I, 26-38: And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a Son; and thou shalt call His Name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of David His father; and He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever.
God's Peace! |
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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The only problem I see with this, is that Matthew was written after the birth of Jesus, and Isaiah was written before. It's very easy to predict a prophesy after the fact. Where is the prophesy before the birth of Jesus that the Messiah would be named Jesus?
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
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Hi Patty! I have one "minor" problem. It (minor problem) is located at the very beginning of this thread, here goes for a repeat! I am not being rude or unjust, but I am reminding the thread how it (the thread) began, and that there has been no real reply to the points I have provided. Now someone is re-asserting the very claim that I have provided rational, and well founded points that reveal problems with the claim. The church , though admits there are problems in the Matthew claim, has failed to produce a single solid work to iron out the problems. I can respect an answer such as, "I cannot explain the problems away and I accept this on faith". Every single Christian forum I have given this too have yet to provide any substabce, even an admission that it is simply accepted on faith.
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Patty
Senior Member Joined: 14 September 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Hmmmm, well Andalus, you give me more to research. (I research mostly Jewish Antiquities.) If you believe in the truthfulness of Mary, what do you make of her words, "I have not know any man." (When the angel first appeared to her and told her she was pregant.) Is she telling the truth? Or not? I'll get back with more. I have a very bad habit, Andalus. Sometimes I go into a thread in the middle. I need to ALWAYS start at the beginning of every thread. It's not my only bad habit....I've got so many...but one I definitely need to break! I will do my research and return. God's Peace. |
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Patty
I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future. |
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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From Wesley's notes:
Verse 23. They shall call his name Emmanuel�To be called, only means, according to the Hebrews manner of speaking, that the person spoken of shall really and effectually be what he is called, and actually fulfil that title. Thus, Unto us a child is born�and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace�That is, he shall be all these, though not so much nominally, as really, and in effect. And thus was he called Emmanuel; which was no common name of Christ, but points out his nature and office; as he is God incarnate, and dwells by his Spirit in the hearts of his people. It is observable, the words in Isaiah are, Thou (namely, his mother) shalt call; but here, They�that is, all his people, shall call�shall acknowledge him to be Emmanuel, God with us. Which being interpreted�This is a clear proof that St. Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek, and not in Hebrew. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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