IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Apologetics, Isaiah 7:14, and Obfuscation  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Apologetics, Isaiah 7:14, and Obfuscation

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Message
Patty View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 14 September 2001
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 12:04pm

AnnieTwo said:

"The personal name of a child would not be Immanuel. Rather, the name Immanuel describes the child's nature and function."

Yes, you are right, Annie.  Just as Jesus is also referred to as the Prince of Peace, Light of the World, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Counselor, etc.  The list goes on and one, but those are adjective sayings describing Him...not His name.  I suppose that is where some of the confusion may come into the picture.

God's Peace to You Annie.

 

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
Back to Top
Mishmish View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Joined: 01 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1694
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 1:20pm

So, are you saying that this verse says something, but means something else? Because it says the virgin shall conceive a Son, and name him Immanuel. But that's not what it means?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

 

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
Back to Top
Patty View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 14 September 2001
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 2:24pm

From St. Luke, Chap. I, 26-38:

And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a Son; and thou shalt call His Name Jesus.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of David His father; and He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever.

The Messiah would be Immanuel, "God with us."
Prophecy Fulfillment
Isaiah 7:14b
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:21-23
" 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
More Prophecies From This Book Additional Fulfillment Examples
Luke 7:16

 

God's Peace!

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
Back to Top
Mishmish View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Joined: 01 November 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1694
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 4:39pm
The only problem I see with this, is that Matthew was written after the birth of Jesus, and Isaiah was written before. It's very easy to predict a prophesy after the fact. Where is the prophesy before the birth of Jesus that the Messiah would be named Jesus?
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
Back to Top
Andalus View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Patty Patty wrote:

From St. Luke, Chap. I, 26-38:

And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a Son; and thou shalt call His Name Jesus.

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of David His father; and He shall reign in the house of Jacob forever.

The Messiah would be Immanuel, "God with us."
Prophecy Fulfillment
Isaiah 7:14b
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:21-23
" 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
More Prophecies From This Book Additional Fulfillment Examples
Luke 7:16

 

God's Peace!

 

Hi Patty!

I have one "minor"  problem. It (minor problem) is located at the very beginning of this thread, here goes for a repeat! I am not being rude or unjust, but I am reminding the thread how it (the thread) began, and that there has been no real reply to the points I have provided. Now someone is re-asserting the very claim that I have provided rational, and well founded points that reveal problems with the claim. The church , though admits there are problems in the Matthew claim, has failed to produce a single solid work to iron out the problems. I can respect an answer such as, "I cannot explain the problems away and I accept this on faith". Every single Christian forum I have given this too have yet to provide any substabce, even an admission that it is simply accepted on faith.

 

Originally posted by re-quote re-quote wrote:

The Context demonstrates:

1) That it makes no difference if the female discussed in 7:14 is a virgin or not (the end result and point of the verse is not dependent upon a strict interpretation of the female being virign)

2) That the verse is irrelevant to the people of the late second temple

3) The verse talks about a sign, not a miracle, relevant to the people of the time period.

 

The context: Two armies from two kingdoms are set to destroy Jerusalem and the davidic throne.

Gd offers, not a miracle, but a sign to the reigning king of Jerusalem, and the representative of the Davidic line.

The Sign: A child will be born to a woman. Before the child reaches the age of puberty, the two armies will be destroyed.

Conclusion: According to the Hebrew Scriptures, this did indeed occur.

The sign, according to any common sense reading, according to any serious exegesis, even with the most conservative of uses of the charity principle, is not the birth, but the time line given by the child's age that coincides with the destruction of the armies.

The birth of the child has no bearing on the armies of the two northern kingdoms, but the child does.

According to Christians, it is the birth that is the sign, because the birth is to a virgin, and this is a prophecy about Jesus being born centuries later after the people in Jerusalem are all dead and forgotten about, after the siege had ended. For the sake of the argument, lets say the verse is about a child born to a virgin, and this is the sign. Lets also assume it is a prophecy.

This implies

1) There were two virgin births, one at that time and one in the late second temple. This would mean the birth of Jesus was not unique.

2) There was one virgin birth, and somehow, the Hebrews were supposed to be able to render almah as young woman who was not a virgin, and then almah as virgin for the double prophecy meaning, which would be relevant to a future generation that had nothing to do with those who were held captive behind the walls of Jerusalem. I would like for Christians to show me the text that allows someone to to render almah as non virgin and then as virgin for the prophecy interpretation.

If the child born was all together part of a prophecy and has nothing to do with King Ahaz, then

1) Which two warring kingdoms of the north were destroyed when Jesus reached the age of puberty?

2) If this part of Isaiah 7 is not part of the prophecy, then please, I would like for Christians to provide me with the methdology that allowed them to rip the point of the story, the destruction of the two warrring armies, out of the verse as a non prophecy, and only keep the child born to a virgin seperate?

If "almah" in chapter 7 must be strictly interpreted as virgin, then the entire sign should be rendered meaningless. Lets assume that chapter 7 is about a virgin birth. This would mean that the woman being a virgin is a critical point for 7 to work.

I will demonstrate by now assuming this is not a virgin birth in Isaiah 7.

The birth is not by a virgin.

Before the child reaches puberty.

The two warring armies of the north are destroyed.

The child reaches the age of puberty.  

Conclusion: The end result in the story occurs with or without the word "almah" being rendered "virgin".

Matthew's claim of Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy is obviously a mistake. No one with any serious intention of learning can look at this claim and look at the actual verse and declare it a prophecy about a virgin giving birth.

The main themes of the story are entirely irrelevant to late second temple. What would be the significance at the moment before Jesus knows right from wrong? Would this imply that Jesus did not know right from wrong and had to reach puberty before his true divine self would kick in? What two warring kingdoms were destroyed (armies) before Jesus knew right from wrong? What would Ahaz care about Jesus and late second temple period? Why would Isaiah as Ahaz for a sign for people living in 2 CE?

The answers do not exist, and giving the point away that almah is virgin causes more problems, and unanswered questions.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
Back to Top
Patty View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 14 September 2001
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 5:36pm

Hmmmm, well Andalus, you give me more to research.  (I research mostly Jewish Antiquities.) 

If you believe in the truthfulness of Mary, what do you make of her words, "I have not know any man."  (When the angel first appeared to her and told her she was pregant.)  Is she telling the truth?  Or not? 

I'll get back with more.  I have a very bad habit, Andalus.  Sometimes I go into a thread in the middle.  I need to ALWAYS start at the beginning of every thread.  It's not my only bad habit....I've got so many...but one I definitely need to break! 

I will do my research and return. 

God's Peace.

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
Back to Top
DavidC View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male Christian
Joined: 20 September 2001
Location: Florida USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2474
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 8:36pm
From Wesley's notes:
Verse 23. They shall call his name Emmanuel�To be called, only means, according to the Hebrews manner of speaking, that the person spoken of shall really and effectually be what he is called, and actually fulfil that title. Thus, Unto us a child is born�and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace�That is, he shall be all these, though not so much nominally, as really, and in effect. And thus was he called Emmanuel; which was no common name of Christ, but points out his nature and office; as he is God incarnate, and dwells by his Spirit in the hearts of his people. It is observable, the words in Isaiah are, Thou (namely, his mother) shalt call; but here, They�that is, all his people, shall call�shall acknowledge him to be Emmanuel, God with us. Which being interpreted�This is a clear proof that St. Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek, and not in Hebrew.
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.