The Amazing Accomplishments of Muslim Scientists

A bit short of time at the moment, but I'll give it another try....

Ahmad Thanks for your elaborate reply with vaguely discussing QM and yet missing out to answer my key question i.e. ....I simply don�t see probabilistic happening to be something �without� or �beyond� or �despite� God. Can you show us? . Hopefully, my explicit and repeating question would not go unanswered, this time, please.

Again I'm still not quite sure what you're after but at least I give you my view on "probabilistic" & God.

First, just to finish off the QM discussion have a look at this article..
There have been many experiments in recent years to settle the discussion about "hidden parameters".
What does this mean? If hidden parameters existed this would simply imply that our present model called QM could (at least in principle) be further refined by including/explaining these hidden parameters, such that the inherent indeterminism of QM would vanish.

Unfortunately(?) all recent experiment hint that there are none [hidden parameters]. It is inspiring to read the core sentence of the article above:

"In our experiment, we show that any theory in which there is significantly less randomness is destined to fail: quantum theory essentially provides the ultimate bound on how predictable the universe is."

followed by:

Randomness in quantum theory is one of its key features and is widely known, even outside the scientific community, says Tittel. "Its appeal is its fundamental nature and broad range of implications: knowing the precise configuration of the universe at the big bang would not be sufficient to predict its entire evolution, for example, in contrast to classical theory."

Please read it again and make sure that you understand the meaning.

Now, you can of course argue (just as Bohr did at the time) that God may dispose of means that are outside of the physical reality(!) of nature (or call it 'laws of nature' if you wish).
Nobody can stop you from doing so, so my answer to your question "I simply don�t see probabilistic happening to be something �without� or �beyond� or �despite� God. Can you show us?" is 'No', and no reasonable person will be able to do so. I'am also sure that you know the fallacy of proving   non-existence, and since you ask me this (fallacious) question over and over again it seems to me rather rooted in rhetorical tactics than genuine curiosity.

Leaving this little side-sweep aside, you also have to see the price you pay for your assumption. It is pretty much as Tim the plumber wrote:

To maintain determinism you'll need an arbitrator for all the events amongst all the 10^80 particles suspected to exist in the universe - all the time, 'till' infinity. What a boring Job to do !

As if all this was not enough - if I understand you correctly you apply an even heavier speculation to this being: That he's nice to people believing in his existence, that he has created us to venerate him, that amongst the zillion planets that there are, our earth has a special status, that he likes to inform his creation about his existence in form of messengers and holy books, as much as he likes to torture those that do not believe in messengers and holy books in hell forever and that he even likes to impose a dressing code on us (and so on).

Honestly, sit down for a minute and think.
All these additional assumptions, without any proof for their correctness whatsoever - just in the vague hope to save determinism ?


Well, Airmano

Edited by airmano - 29 March 2016 at 1:55pm