An open letter to �the world"

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 17 August 2007 at 6:52pm

. . Muslims who persecuted them for centuries

The real sadness of your posts is that you seem totally unaware of the fact that, both, el-Andalus and the Ottoman set ups were Joint Ventures between the Muslims and Jews of that age. All my learned and educated Jewish friends, all across the world recognise these periods as their golden age.

It's just another matter that none of these highly educated and gifted friends will never use the language you use or even your misguided contents.

Jews were never persecuted in any Muslim period.

and forcefully converted them

It was against the Muslim interest to convert anyone and loose that jaziya, the tax that the non-Muslims paid!!! But I just love this fabrication for I love good jokes.

while raping their women?

And, the Ottomans would receive all the Jews fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition and provide them full protection, just to rape the women of their FULL partners in the empire?

And what happened to the land and property taken by Muslims from Jews in Islamic countries

If you are able to prove as fact, my friend, I will get you nominated for a Nobel Prize, for establishing the most ridiculous.

before the creation of the state of Israel?

Yes, a lot did happen, in Muslim countries, specially, under British influence, around the time when Israel was being carved out, primarily, to implement a Churchillian thought ". . and, we will have million of jews doing our bidding in that quarter of importance!"

Why don't you complain about that?

We complain and stand against all forms of injustice. That's why we are complaining about some of your extremely unjust palabras and assertions. Not to mention your quite interesting abusive behaviour.

I think, you will feel better and far less bitter just if you gathered some facts about Jewish-Muslims relations prior to the induction of Greek wars.

But, then, if you are bent on propogating something for some other reasons, you definitely won't feel anything at all.

Israeli_Avatar View Drop Down

Guest Group

Joined: 08 August 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 34

Posted: 17 August 2007 at 7:59pm

"The real sadness of your posts is that you seem totally unaware of the fact that, both, el-Andalus and the Ottoman set ups were Joint Ventures between the Muslims and Jews of that age. All my learned and educated Jewish friends, all across the world recognise these periods as their golden age."

Once again, this is what happens when you misread what I say. I stated that the idea of prosperity in the Islamic world drastically deviates from the idea of prosperity in the west; this is a cultural and theological phenomenon.

"It's just another matter that none of these highly educated and gifted friends will never use the language you use or even your misguided contents."

Well, if you call their mother a female dog and slap them around, I am sure that they will come through. And what contents do you speak of?

"Jews were never persecuted in any Muslim period."

Did you even bother thinking before writing that line?

"It was against the Muslim interest to convert anyone and loose that jaziya, the tax that the non-Muslims paid!!! But I just love this fabrication for I love good jokes."

That depends on the location, I have freinds in Iran whose familes were forcefully converted, and there are many instances when forcefull conversion was a reality in Islamic countries. One of the reasons the Rambam had to flee is because such a thing was imminent.

"And, the Ottomans would receive all the Jews fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition and provide them full protection, just to rape the women of their FULL partners in the empire?"

I never stated that the Ottomons were raping Jews, I know that they were complicit in administrative authorities with the Jews, I was speaking of the surrounding Arab communities; Turks and Jews have managed to get along quite well because the Turks had an Empire and much to lose, they depended on the Jews, as well as the Armenians and other minorities for political and economic support. The Arab Muslims on the other hand were always substantially more unstable. Maybe its just an Arab problem? Though, that cannot be it because look at Iran.

"Jews In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property. Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious

Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled."

http://www.hsje.org/jews_kicked_out_of_arab_countrie.htm

The best neighborhood in Egypt was a Jewish neighborhood? Was expelling those Jews that lived their for so long not tantamount to taking their land?

"We complain and stand against all forms of injustice. That's why we are complaining about some of your extremely unjust palabras and assertions. Not to mention your quite interesting abusive behaviour."

Do you feel victimized? Good, so I guess you and the Zionists have more in common than you think. I also did not feel very peachy when one of the matriarchs of Judaism was called a female dog by one of your Muslim brothers, and I also did not really appreciate the blanket statements, and the generalizations coming from your brethren.

"I think, you will feel better and far less bitter just if you gathered some facts about Jewish-Muslims relations prior to the induction of Greek wars."

I know that those relations were much better than the relations Jews had in Europe, and many Jews had successful positions in the Islamic Middle East. Though, that still does not undercut the transgressions commited against the Jews in the Arab populated areas. I understand that it is far better to be in prison than in hell, and the Islamic middle east was a prison for certain Jews and other minorities. We lived as second class citizens in certain places, alongside other non-Muslims that also had a similar status.

"But, then, if you are bent on propogating something for some other reasons, you definitely won't feel anything at all."

Propogating propoganda for the sake of converting some of your brethren? I am too old for such a thing!

Edited by Israeli_Avatar

Andalus

Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Posted: 17 August 2007 at 9:06pm

Israeli_Avatar wrote:

"First, this is yet another strawman: I never claimed that you did. (please not that there is no earthly, or any other means, to be any more specific about your constant "critical thinking" blunders.)"

"Wow! Did you think of that all on your own? LOL....pathetic I guess this is more of your "facts"."

So if you knew that I did not make this up then why the aforesaid comment? Talk about critical thinking blunders.

"My criticisms were entirely on mark and specific enough that I even provided you with the "specific" fallacies. You simply replied with useless remarks that evaded and escaped what was given to you. Your dishonesty and ignorance is not my problem."

On whose mark exactly? You did not manage to provide anything except ignorance. I replied with remarks that you deserved completely, if you were not pejorative and blatant, there would not be a problem, I would address any reasonable issue. Everything you stated was either a generalization, contradiction, or just retardation.

"You are asserting that I have proposed "paranoya" (paronoia), which is utter nonsense, and that is simply a "usual" zionist "labeling" tactic to avoid any dissention or even disagreement with your bankrupt movement."

Thanks for the correction, but before you correct me, maybe you should edit your own post. The aforesaid is another example of paronoia. My movement is far from bankrupt, you should know that, you live in America.

"Your first reaction to my reply to your bad form was to "lash out" by trying to paste links from faithfreedom. LOL. Your own actions reveal your weakness."

Bad form? Are you speaking of writing styles now? I thought we were speaking of semantics. The website was provided for the sake of the pictures that were on it.

"tautological drivel, ad nauseum."

For inteligent camels like you.

"Keep in mind, I have you absolutely "specific" words that used, in complete terms, the fallacies that were thrown about in your reply. The problem is that the thread is so far obfuscated by your over editorializing and countless "red herrings" that the thread has been branded "useless". Thank you for that."

Please clear up this babble. LOL, why would you even speak of obfuscating when you can't even write properly. You need some editorializing, that's what your going to be doing in your response to clean up the babble you wrote. Your welcome!

"No, I am making judgements about the "sources". Your complete lack of "critical thinking" skills is creating great difficulties for you. Your juvenile attempt at a "scholarly" piece stinks of "appealing to authority". This means you found "Zionist" sources about a topic that is "controversial".

"So you will accept a sophmoric piece about how morally and intellectually and spirtually bankrupt Zionism is using "Muslim" Arab sources?"

What does that mean? Please edit your nonsense.

"You are unable to even recognize a serious piece to back your claims. How deficient is that? Really."

A serious piece would be a Muslim source?

I know that your making idiotic judgements about the sources, and basing your judgements on the idea that some of the writers are Jewish, that is how I know that you are a camel. I never attempted at any scholarly piece, that would be a book or a research paper. This is a blog, genius.

"Second, this is not a fact, but a poor debunked, and unscholarly polemic that has been recyled countlessly by evangelicals and zioinsts, and normally from the more "unread" of these groups as the "theory" is not "widley accepted."

I never said it was a fact, please read carefully.

"Third, this is one of your "red herrings", one of many that you dump in your rants."

Now, your just blabbing, your angry and you did not read properly.

"Fourth, this is a violation of the forum rules (one of meany violations by you so far). This "assertion" is completely irrelevant to the thread, and goes off topic. I do understand your intention of playing these games, and as of now you have three choices:"

And calling one of the matriarchs of Judaism a female dog is what? Proper Muslim conduct? And I commited no violation, if you read properly.

"The choice of yours."

I choose to tell you that you need classes in English. You seem to know how to use the spell checker really well, I guess that is a step up.

"Wow....thats pretty "adult" of you. You sure sound intelligent and convincing."

Yes, and saying that one of the Jewish matriarchs is a female dog is pretty adult of you as well. And then saying that Jews suck the economy dry is another sign of your adulthood.

"Amazing. Google also says that Zionism is a racist, immoral movement. Do some reading! "Google" is not a proof. Keep in mind that this theory you are trying to assert as fact (again your lack of critical thinking skills is challenging you, a theory is not a fact)"

What a hypocrite, why are you jumping topics? You castigate me for that, but I guess Muslims don't practice what they preach. And google is a search engine, you genius. I never asserted it as a fact, I said that it was alleged, read properly. You are the one that has absoulutely no critical thinking skills. Google is a search engine, it does not have to be proof, it leads you to websites where you can read. "Google it" is just an expression, telling you to do some research.

"Given your continued attempt to force such a blatant red herring into this thread which has not provided you with any real subject matter to call for this, conisder this your first "official" warning."

You are the one that started talking about the moon, your warnings mean nothing to me.

"More tautoligcal drivel. To mask your shortcomings, you have repeated your pattern of "dumping" which amounts to jumping from "assertion" to "assertion", taking swipes with unargued and unproven "claims" that are too numerous to even begin replying to, not to mention they are "irrelevant" to this thread. You hide behind these cheap rhetorical tricks, and then cry foul as is the usual chicanery of Jewish Zionists. I can debate you on any of the "countless" red herrings you have dishonestly dumped in this diatribe. Just place the topic in the appropriate section, and then try very hard to stay on topic. Keep in mind that you have been given your first official warning."

Since when are you an official? The aforesaid just sounds like another cheap and cowardly cop-out because of your indolence and laziness. You have not been able to debate me. You have just contradicted yourself, and managed to let your cursory education shine very well. You have also managed to show how historically unaware and ignorant you really are; your lack of critical thinking skills consumes you.

You wouldn't survive in my neighborhood for a day. And I really don't care about your dealings with this Rabbi. I am sure that when he realized that he was dealing with a monkey and when he ran out of bananas, he stopped interacting with you.

Your such a clown!

postamble();

Another response with so many "claims" jamm packed that it would be impossible to comment on everything. Since you continue with these antics, I will lack the thread after a few comments of my own.

Israeli_Avatar wrote:

"Wow! Did you think of that all on your own? LOL....pathetic I guess this is more of your "facts"."

So if you knew that I did not make this up then why the aforesaid comment? Talk about critical thinking blunders.

Yes, that is what I said, but I apologize for giving you waay too much credit for being astute, since you were unable to recognize a glaring example of "sarcasm" I will now "dumb" down my replies be very careful and thoughtful. I am sorry.

the "mark" defined by the basic rules of logic that govern rhetoric. I am sorry if you wish to go against the rest of humanity in this matter. Regardless, you need to take your concerns up with the rest of humanity.

1) Take the time to learn what a word means. Your group throws this word around so much that it begins to loose its intended meaning.

Paranoia

A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
Extreme, irrational distrust of others

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/parano ia

Could you please paste the exact statement I have made that fits either one or two.

2) Zionism is bankrupt: spiritually, morally, and intellectually

Some? They are all pro-Zionists, and every name appears to have some "Jewish" persuasion. You are obtuse if you truly beileve this is an "unbiased" piece.

I never said it was a fact, please read carefully.

You stated it was a fact and you asserted it as such. You are welcome to debate your theory in the interfaith section. You will probably be met with links to to older threads where this subject has been debated to a large extent.

And calling one of the matriarchs of Judaism a female dog is what? Proper Muslim conduct? And I commited no violation, if you read properly.

1) I did not say I think she is, I stated that your Torah makes her out to be one. Another evidence of its complete corruption. I hold the wife of every Prophet (as) with great esteem, which is far different from pointing out the position another source makes.

2) I allowed you to throw a jab at my faith, and I simply provided you with an example of your own medicine, which you had repeated countless times.

I see nothing else worth commenting on.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/

Israeli_Avatar View Drop Down

Guest Group

Joined: 08 August 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 34

Posted: 17 August 2007 at 11:38pm

Stop making excuses for your laziness and lack of depth; and instead of saying that my comments are too numerous and fallacious, maybe you should be a little more specific and address something with logic and clarity, instead of all of these contradictions.

"Yes, that is what I said, but I apologize for giving you waay too much credit for being astute, since you were unable to recognize a glaring example of "sarcasm" I will now "dumb" down my replies be very careful and thoughtful. I am sorry."

Sarcasm, are inteligent people supposed to know this because of the "LOL" and the quotation marks around truths? And after calling me a fool and speaking of the moon, a symbol of sacriligious Arabia, why would you even think of being sacrcastic?

"the "mark" defined by the basic rules of logic that govern rhetoric. I am sorry if you wish to go against the rest of humanity in this matter. Regardless, you need to take your concerns up with the rest of humanity."

The basic rules of logic dictated by the Koran? What are you speaking about here? Humanity has defined basic rules of logic? And you managed to follow these rules? An example would be good with such a reply, not having any example just shows that your are speaking out of your behind. If in fact you do follow these imaginary rules of absurd logic, I can see why humanity consists of a majority of idiots.

Take the time to look into a few dictionaries before pasting definitions.

par�a�noi�a [par-uh-noi-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

�noun

Psychiatry. a mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others, sometimes progressing to disturbances of consciousness and aggressive acts believed to be performed in self-defense or as a mission.

baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others.

Your labeling of everything as being a "Zionist conspiracy" and your automatic refutation of sources on the basis that they are Jewish fits the second definition.

"2) Zionism is bankrupt: spiritually, morally, and intellectually"

There are several problems with this statement.

1. We do not and will never have a common definition of spirituality; try to use a dictionary again for this word.

2. Morals are a serious matter of perception.

3. Intelectual value is also a perspectivist domain.

"Some? They are all pro-Zionists, and every name appears to have some "Jewish" persuasion. You are obtuse if you truly beileve this is an "unbiased" piece."

I said some of them are Jewish, and you don't know anything about their politics, you are talking out of your butt. Nothing is really an unbiased piece, some writings have more biases than others. And if the name does have Jewish persuasion that doesn't neccessarily denote any political position, or religion; you are truly a camel. Lastly, many "Jewish names" are actually German. And even if they are Jewish and Zionist, that doesn't disprove what they are saying, that MAY show that they have biases, but so does everybody, proving the degree of bias is a more complicated matter that cannot be done with a "cursory" education of your caliber.

"You stated it was a fact and you asserted it as such. You are welcome to debate your theory in the interfaith section. You will probably be met with links to to older threads where this subject has been debated to a large extent."

I never stated it was a fact, I said it was alleged, now you are "obfuscating." Just scroll up and read it properly.

"1) I did not say I think she is, I stated that your Torah makes her out to be one. Another evidence of its complete corruption. I hold the wife of every Prophet (as) with great esteem, which is far different from pointing out the position another source makes."

That is the same thing as me saying that Mohammed was a petiphile because he consumated his marriage with somebody that would be considered underage. This is a malicious interpretation, and something that is extremely inflamatory.

And do not speak of the Torah that way, you Camel. Your own Koran considers the Torah a holy document, and you know nothing of it.

"2) I allowed you to throw a jab at my faith, and I simply provided you with an example of your own medicine, which you had repeated countless times."

You are making excuses for your fowl tongue, you are the one that started throwing around insults.

"I see nothing else worth commenting on."

Because you are a blind camel!

Edited by Israeli_Avatar

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 18 August 2007 at 1:01am

Israeli_Avatar
Newbie
Newbie

Thank you for some of the most blatant distortions, of your own history, for reasons, I am now convinced, which are even beyond your own control.

People like you are the route cause of strife and bloodshed, not just in your area, but anywhere in our world.

Please, save your response because I am not going to even read your posts, ever again, leave aside feed your strange condition with my response. Sir, I have no time or the required professional qualifications, for nursing any such cases.

Edited by Whisper

Israeli_Avatar View Drop Down

Guest Group

Joined: 08 August 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 34

Posted: 18 August 2007 at 1:57am

Your imaginary political correctness and agenda will not get you anywhere, you can back out of the debate, it is not a problem, this only proves that you are a coward. If I am wrong, please be specific and point my fallacies with sources. Otherwise, cut the wannabe psychological analysis out.

Just by you asserting that Muslims never persecuted Jews, I can see that you have a seriously malicious agenda up your sleeve.

"People like you are the route cause of strife and bloodshed, not just in your area, but anywhere in our world."

And what exactly is my area? The aforesaid is a moronic statement.

Edited by Israeli_Avatar

Andalus

Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187

Posted: 18 August 2007 at 9:19am

Israeli_Avatar wrote:

given that my reply was directly to what you have attempted to assert, any complaints about "depth" should be addressed to yourself. This rant does not even make sense. You are obviously trying to increase your vocabulary but you still need to learn what the words mean and how to use them. They simply do not suit you.

The moon is not on any flag from the peninsula. Your ignorance betrays you yet again.

By the way, this is now your second official warning. I already warned you about your nasty habit of throwing in red herrings (you use them as a way to lash out in a tantrum).

One more warning left.

Strawman, I never mentioned the Quran. I am not sure if I should comment further, as your lack of knowledge and education would be as if throwing pearls to swine.

Yes, logic as defined by humanity, beginning with classical logic from the classical Greek period, and further developed by Muslims and then the west. LOL....imaginary rules. Once again you show your lack of education. Please, you cannot superimpose your own ignorance on to the rest of the world when it appeals to you. Please do some reading and research and join the rest of humanity.

Take the time to look into a few dictionaries before pasting definitions.

par�a�noi�a /ˌp�r əˈnɔɪ ə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[par-uh-noi-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

�noun

2.	baseless or excessive suspicion of the motives of others. Your labeling of everything as being a "Zionist conspiracy" and your automatic refutation of sources on the basis that they are Jewish fits the second definition.

Now you are showing how illiterate you are. This states the same thing I posted in meaning, and your cheap quibbling further diminishes your credibility. In other words, you are whining for the sake of whining.

"2) Zionism is bankrupt: spiritually, morally, and intellectually"

There are several problems with this statement.

1. We do not and will never have a common definition of spirituality; try to use a dictionary again for this word.

Thank you for agreeing with me. Not only is my statement correct, but you just confirmed it! Riotous. Not having any common notion of spirituality is "spiritually bankrupt". LOL......Looks like you not only need a dictionary, but a basic course in logic. You were unaware that you just proved by statement.

Moving on....

2. Morals are a serious matter of perception.

incoherent drivel. And this does in any way prove that my statement has problems.

3. Intelectual value is also a perspectivist domain.

More incoherent drivel. Not only does this "not" show that my statement is problematic, but this statement make absolutely "no sense".

"Some? They are all pro-Zionists, and every name appears to have some "Jewish" persuasion. You are obtuse if you truly believe this is an "unbiased" piece."

I said some of them are Jewish, and you don't know anything about their politics, you are talking out of your butt.

Actually I do know, but your response tells me that you had not even thought about the idea that your piece was so highly biased. It appears that you pulled this one out of your "backside".

Nothing is really an unbiased piece, some writings have more biases than others.

Nice attempt to evade the point. You do this when presented with uncomfortable facts about your movement....."well every nation has had racism"......"well every nation has done some wrong"......"well there is nothing that does not have some bias"......

Irrational.

And if the name does have Jewish persuasion that doesn't neccessarily denote any political position, or religion; you are truly a camel. Lastly, many "Jewish names" are actually German. And even if they are Jewish and Zionist, that doesn't disprove what they are saying, that MAY show that they have biases, but so does everybody, proving the degree of bias is a more complicated matter that cannot be done with a "cursory" education of your caliber.

Actually, it proves that you committed the fallacy of "appealing to authority". Obviously, any piece written by Zionists about Muslims will have a slant. The nature of zionism establishes this immediately. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds, as you would be the first to cry foul of Saudi thinkers wrote a piece about Israel and Zionism.

I never stated it was a fact, I said it was alleged, now you are "obfuscating." Just scroll up and read it properly.

"A fool like you can definately be made to worship the moon!"

"And the fact that you worship the moon was not made up by me."

enough said...

False analogy. The Quran and Sunnah do not diminish his character, nor is anything that is stated inherently wrong. The Torah gives an account that morally reprehensible, and demeans Isaac and his wife.

And do not speak of the Torah that way, you Camel. Your own Koran considers the Torah a holy document, and you know nothing of it.

The Quran simply states that Moses was a messenger and had a revelation. The Quran does not confirm the "Sanhedrin�s" compilation. In other words, the Torah may have some things that are from God, mixed with things that are not. You are welcome to discuss this in "interfaith".

"2) I allowed you to throw a jab at my faith, and I simply provided you with an example of your own medicine, which you had repeated countless times."

You are making excuses for your fowl tongue, you are the one that started throwing around insults.

"I see nothing else worth commenting on."

Because you are a blind camel!

postamble();

No, I simply revealed your chicanery in your response to Sister herjihad. You lashed out with verbal games in response.

Given that you could not even hold a rational discussion with Br Whisper, I believe this thread to hold no more benefit. I will now close it. If you have any further desire to debate some of the irrelevant issues you raised, you may do so in the appropriate sections.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/