As an officer, you always admire business owner courage, however we never encourage them to take the law in their own hands. The perp [short for perpatrator] may have left her with her life but the next time she does it to someone who is a REAL robber we may not be reading how brave she is but how badly she was killed. A business can be rebuilt. A store can resurrect itself but when your life ends you cannot bring yourself back. She is no "Hijabi warrior" [which is a term I find funny] she is lucky. At 4'5 90lbs if I were a robber I'd throw her across the room like a child and take the cash myself.

I've done cases where even when owner complied robbers still kill them. But owners are more likely to come out with their lives if they comply than those who fight back. the reasoning here is, if you fight back the robber may be scared where the firearm will discharge and may hit the store clerk.

Israfil wrote: As an officer, you always admire business owner courage, however we never encourage them to take the law in their own hands. The perp [short for perpatrator] may have left her with her life but the next time she does it to someone who is a REAL robber we may not be reading how brave she is but how badly she was killed. A business can be rebuilt. A store can resurrect itself but when your life ends you cannot bring yourself back. She is no "Hijabi warrior" [which is a term I find funny] she is lucky. At 4'5 90lbs if I were a robber I'd throw her across the room like a child and take the cash myself. I've done cases where even when owner complied robbers still kill them. But owners are more likely to come out with their lives if they comply than those who fight back. the reasoning here is, if you fight back the robber may be scared where the firearm will discharge and may hit the store clerk.

No one cares what the "law" encourages or doesn't. If they did, no one would speed, or litter, or do anything the "law" doesn't encourage :)

"Lucky" is such a silly word to use. If you ask this lady which of the favors of her Lord would she deny, I'm sure she wouldn't deny any of them.

Political correctness is nice, but only in moderation :)

ak_m_f wrote: Israfil is right, always follow the robbers instruction & don't make any sudden moves, it usually scares them resulting is injury/ death of a person. This clerk was extremely lucky.

Ditto! However one does have the right to protect their property and as she mentioned, 'I didn't want to give him the money.'

`Abdullah bin `Amr bin Al-`As (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "He who is killed while defending his property is a martyr.''
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].

Commentary: The Hadith highlights the fact that whoever gets killed in an effort to protect his property is a martyr.

Agreed.

If you're going to fight, fight fire with fire. Ak you with your military background you know that any individual in going to battle should never "bring a knife to a gun fight" in this case it was an axe.

Abuayisha,

I too agree that every store owner has every right to defend their property. But in situations where life is at stake we must analyze risk and whether we want to take that risk. Today I did a call where a store owner lost her life trying to fight a robber. Like the woman in the article she was small framed and fought when the robber pushed her to the side to take the cash himself. Instead of letting the robber do what he wanted, she fought which ended up in her being killed.

Sakeena:

No one cares what the "law" encourages or doesn't. If they did, no one would speed, or litter, or do anything the "law" doesn't encourage :)

"Lucky" is such a silly word to use. If you ask this lady which of the favors of her Lord would she deny, I'm sure she wouldn't deny any of them.

Political correctness is nice, but only in moderation :)

Your beginning post is nonsense. People DO care about the law and yes people speed but its not because they don't have any respect for the law they simply don't have respect for the lives of others. People litter not because they don't respect the law they just have no concern for the environment. The thing here is God gave every human a brain, and, I don't think some 4'9 90lb woman used it. I call it "luck" because of the high probability of being killed in such a situation in which was not her consequence for fighting back.

Well in a way rock on Sister!

I do however, agree with Israfil. I teach self-defense and we always recommend if it is a property crime to give them your property (and this is in US, I speak for no other cultures). If a person has a weapon they most likely will use it if you resist.

I have heard more stories of people who resisted a proprty crime and had been shot or stabbed to death. This goes for men and women.

We never teach women to fight for property. It is not worth you life. If it is a personal crime-rape, sexual assault, physical assault, it is often better to fight then not. But always its a woman's choice.

She "reacted" and kept her wits about her, but more often then not, this response would result in grave injury to her. 

I am sad she had to go through the expeience. It is VERY scary! Thanks to Allah she is alright.

semar wrote: http://www.nypost.com/seven/10242007/news/regionalnews/tiny_chop_keeper_kicks_gunmans.htm - http://www.nypost.com/seven/10242007/news/regionalnews/tiny_ chop_keeper_kicks_gunmans.htm

As-salaam Alaikum,

I have a question.  If the story stated she was killed by the robber after she gave he/she what she wanted.  She didn't fight back.  What would be said on this forum?

Hakeema

hakeema wrote: semar wrote: http://www.nypost.com/seven/10242007/news/regionalnews/tiny_chop_keeper_kicks_gunmans.htm - http://www.nypost.com/seven/10242007/news/regionalnews/tiny_ chop_keeper_kicks_gunmans.htm As-salaam Alaikum, I have a question.  If the story stated she was killed by the robber after she gave he/she what she wanted.  She didn't fight back.  What would be said on this forum? Hakeema

Hakeema very good question and good inquiry on the issue. I would say it would not have made it to the forum. However, if it had, I'm sure I'd respond with something relating to my condolences but I doubt it would get the responses it has now.

The "law" of Allah (swt) says you can defend yourself. If you are successful, you deserve to be congradulated not criticized or second guessed.

Masha-Allah she did well against a "REAL" robber.

aka2x2 wrote: The "law" of Allah (swt) says you can defend yourself. If you are successful, you deserve to be congradulated not criticized or second guessed. Masha-Allah she did well against a "REAL" robber.

No one cares what the "law" of Allah (swt) says. Ok, astagfirallah, end sarcasm.

Yes, she did very well, even if it was wrong for her to do it, which the majority of folks seem to think. Which is absolutely fine by all means. It's ok, I suppose, to say she was "lucky" instead of blessed. But I guess that is matter of opinion *shrug*

It's fine to talk about the "what if's", but it's just allegory brought about to prove a certain point. Wait wait wait, I feel that I am going to end up banging my head against a wall. Disregard.

Sakeena wow that was a weird post you made.....

Aka2x2,

I applaud this woman's courage however I don't encourage it. Here is why I don't think what she did was smart

1) She is a small framed woman. Her frame is important because she was wielding an axe, and if the robber is a lot bigger asnd stronger he can easily use the weapon against her.

2) Most robberies of this nature usually end up with little loss. Arson happens to be a bigger crime than simple robbery. Because most local stores carry petty cash not large amounts of money, but robbers tend to think store owners carry large amounts of money in registers.

3) If it is money, it can be replaced. If it is items it can be replaced.

This isn't about criticizing someone its about stating the facts. If you had a store would you encourage your mom to defend it with an axe or a gun? Even as a police officer I would not fight the robber and leave the crime solving to the proper authorities. I encourage no individual to try to take the law into their hands.

Sakena,

I don't think it is cricizing as much as it is educating. If everyone is like "oh great" etc. etc. And women then think "I ought to protect my property "and they try and get killed. I would feel responsible for not having spoken up.

Its like any endeavor, there are better options then others. Self-defense as been my profession for years. I feel it would be wrong if I do not let other women know this is probably not your best choice. Yes it is a choice but not the best one. If we go around "promoting" it then it might lead to a very deadly decision by someone.

As Israfil said, would you want you mom risking death for $100?

Take care.

Israfil

You have given good advice. I understand your reasoning. It is very logical and it may even be true most of the time. The problem is fights are seldom logical. Therefore, the outcome is never predetermined. The story of this lady proves that point.

I also believe we are losing sight of the bigger picture here. I think this kind of story has a big impact on hoodlums. Because of the courage of this tiny woman thugs are less likely to initiate violence against Muslims. If that becomes the case all of us will be safer and we will owe it to her and people like her.

aka2x2 wrote: Israfil You have given good advice. I understand your reasoning. It is very logical and it may even be true most of the time. The problem is fights are seldom logical. Therefore, the outcome is never predetermined. The story of this lady proves that point.   I also believe we are losing sight of the bigger picture here. I think this kind of story has a big impact on hoodlums. Because of the courage of this tiny woman thugs are less likely to initiate violence against Muslims. If that becomes the case all of us will be safer and we will owe it to her and people like her.

Perhaps hoodlums in her neighborhood may think twice. Perhaps she may not be harmed. we can think of the many possibilities of this inital behavior but what I'm concerned about is the probability that she will be robbed again. I wish one day that it toook one action to change how people behave but sometimes it doesn't work that way. Not all the time, but most of the time.

I also don't think it will deter crime. Not all of the "bad" people talk to each other. And its not like that are scoping out watching the news.

My brother-in-law has been mugged at gun point three times. People are attacked cause people perceive you have something that other people want-money or goods.

I also do not think she was attacked cause she was Moslem. She was attacked because she was working a counter at a store.  Many crimes are crimes of opportunity. The nextgroup of hoodlums who go in and see a lone woman in the store will probably not even know of previous attempt.

I taught a self-defense workshop this past weekend and even in a small group, two people had known of robberies, in which the people resisted who were killed.

Crimes against Muslims in the US have increased several folds since 9-11. This is well documented by organizations like CAIR and others. Authorities have done very little to counteract this trend. In fact, the message has gone out that there is open season on Muslims in Americas.

Not all Muslims are treated the same in this regard. Those who do not �look� Muslim are sometimes spared these atrocities. Not so for women in hijab. The moment a woman puts on the hijab she becomes a visible minority regardless of her race and ethnicity. These women know the depths of anti-Muslim feelings in this country.

I have no doubt the would-be robber wanted money in this case. I also have no doubt he knew he was attacking a Muslim. I don�t advocate vigilante justice but I want him and people like him to think twice before they target a Muslim. If we get labeled berserkers so be it. The new message should be �Don�t mess with Muslims�. That won�t happen unless some of us stand up for ourselves.

As Salamu Alaikum

I asked my cousin's son, who is 10 years old what he thought about this super Hijabi.

"She's Dumb" he said, because his father, my cousin, was killed while defending his property.

I'm with you on this Israfil..........Yes this lady was extremely lucky.

Salams

>>>I have no doubt the would-be robber wanted money in this case. I also have no doubt he knew he was attacking a Muslim.<<<<

This is simply ridiculous

Alwardah wrote: I asked my cousin's son, who is 10 years old what he thought about this super Hijabi."She's Dumb" he said,

Muslims have a God-given right from above the seven heavens to defend themselves, property and honor.  If she took this decision it was her right and if Allah decreed her death as a result, our sister, insha'Allah, would have died an honorable death.  If everyone allows evil to spread unchecked certainly there will be much fitnah in the land.  Police only arrive afterwards for forensics and reports.  Ultimately if we are to live in safe societies, we must, to our ability become involved.  Some are brave, others cowardly and those who are circumspect, but we should allow those who take a daring stand the honor our religion gives them.  And Allah Knows Best 

http://www.sodahead.com/poll/22671/ - http://www.sodahead.com/poll/22671/

>>>>Police only arrive afterwards for forensics and reports.<<<

The above comment is absurd.

If citizens act accordingly, the police can serve as a preventative force but only and if only the citizens acts accordingly. This whole thing has nothing to do with religion its about going back to our natural instinct, which is sruviving. Its not cowardly to allow someone to steal your things especially when you know the next day you'll restock on those items. If you choose to defend your property that is fine too, but individuals must make correct judgements on whether they should act. Like I've been saying I've judged her decisions not because of her acting I judged her based upon her physical frame. Like I said she is lucky, most REAL robbers who don't have any regard for life would have blown her head or have beat her down. Not because she is Muslim. Not because of a woman. But because she has a vulnerable figure. Maybe Arabs or far easterners think fighting back is ok and yes I've encountered them [and that whole honor system] however its not so wise. That is why  you see on the news why they get murdered.

But saying cops only show up only "after the fact" is an absurd comment and its obvious you hve no background in law enforcement, well, actually most to none of you guys do really.

�Maybe Arabs or far easterners think fighting back is ok and yes I've encountered them [and that whole honor system] however its not so wise. That is why  you see on the news why they get murdered.�

��.I judged her based upon her physical frame.�

So, had she been a large woman of another ethnicity�.?

I agree with Israfil regarding the comment about police..

Frankly,  it is impossible for the police to be everywhere. If the police had been around, the crime probably would not have been committed.

Not saying this about anyone here, but people often have unrealistic expectations about what thep police are capable of doing. They will never be on every street corner, in every home, in every business, etc.

Ofcourse w could be like in Pakistan, where many businesses, etc would have  security guard at the door with his big, big gun.

I also do not think that the average "hoodlum" is too knowledgeable ot acting upon the whole anti-Islam agenda. Honestly, many average people who are "outside" the system are quite skeptical of anything that the government may promote... and really most could care less about the "war on terror, " etc.    

Criminals are too st**id to take religion into account unless the nature of the crime is deliberate hate specified at a group [race, religion, sex, etc].

So, had she been a large woman of another ethnicity�.?

It may or may not have made a difference and no her ethnicity would not matter. Culture, any culture plays into effect on our decision making. In the previous comment that I've made I was taking into account the culture of pride that many cultures of the Middle East and Far East have. Many Asians for instance who have businesses tend to act as if their sold items are extensions of themselves. Some feel that it is necessary to defend those items, because its an "honorable" thing to do.

Store Clerk Fights Back Against Would-Be Robber

October 30th, 2007 @ 4:04pm

(KSL News) A man carrying a rifle tried to rob a Salt Lake City convenience store Monday, but the clerk fought back.

Police say Brent Hansen entered an EZ Mart yesterday afternoon and demanded money. The clerk and the man began fighting, knocking money and store items across the counter.

The clerk then grabbed the rifle and began beating the would-be robber. Police arrived and arrested Hansen.

After the incident, the clerk said he was experiencing chest pains. He was taken to a local hospital as a precaution.

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