herjihad wrote: Salaamu Alaykum, Who is Ibn Baaz, besides the son of Baaz?

Assalam Aleikum.

He was a wahabi cleric who's views are highly controversial. He was part of a crowd who indulged in heresy and attempted to assert the Ummah has been in error for centuries, except for him and his friends, and Ibn Taymiyyah, and Abdl Wahab, the main source of their views, which are usually minority opinions.

Knowledge01 wrote: Andalus wrote: Assalam Aleikum. He was a wahabi cleric who's views are highly controversial. He was part of a crowd who indulged in heresy and attempted to assert the Ummah has been in error for centuries, except for him and his friends, and Ibn Taymiyyah, and Abdl Wahab, the main source of their views, which are usually minority opinions.    I agree that Sheikh Ibn Baaz has some wrong opinions and fatawa, but every human, including the best of shuyukh, makes mistakes.

No one is saying that the man was immoral, or irreligous, or dumb, etc, etc. No one is claiming that he is wrong because he was not perfect. The problem with bin baaz is not that he was fallible, or that a scholar must be infallible, the problem is that he advocated ideas that were in line with a sect that has created so much fitnah. He also was openly a member of this sect. His mistakes were from a matter of his choice to follow misguidance, not from simply being fallible.

He also had a lot of knowledge and good qualities, one of which is pointed out in my first post.

His knowledge might have been good, but what does it avail him when he dissented from 1000 years of scholarship, supported a heresy, put out fatwas that created fitnah. If a man's methdology to derive religou rulings is based upon an ideology that is contraversial, then how does a muqliid shuffle through his views and discern between the good and the fallacious? The threat of misguidance dictates that the logical path is to go to sources that, might have a mistake secondary to an author who was fallible, rather than secondary to a theologically bankrupt ideology.

The idea of groups of scholars who have worked for generations in the religous sciences decreases the odds that mistakes have crept in. This is in contrast to an ideology that everyone has been wrong fro centuries and so a couple of handful of men will correct what everyone lese was unable to to in a century and a half.

Make 70 excuses for you brother in din and ask Allah to forgive him and be pleased with him.

contextually, you bet!

As Salamu Alaikum

Bro Andulus, I still don�t understand your immense dislike for the wahabi scholars as you call them.

There are many in the Muslim world who cherish their works����give it a break brother.

Shaikh ibn Baz (Rahimahullah) has already met His Lord, you still have time to repent���make good use of that time.

May Allah forgive us for our foolishness. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

Knowledge01 wrote: Please move this topic back to where it was because this is not the appropriate section for it.

Assalamu Alaikum,

Brother, with all due respect, this is where such discussions belong. May Allah guide us all.

Peace

Alwardah wrote: As Salamu Alaikum Bro Andulus, I still don�t understand your immense dislike for the wahabi scholars as you call them.

It is not personal. It is not the individuals per say, or what kind of people they were. It is about the ideology they espouse which is the anti thesis to over a thousand years of scholarship that has served Muslims for generations. It is the anti thesis to solid pieces of work that we now call the four madhabs which is the product of centuries of scholarship by people who were experts in their field and fulfilled the qualifications and standards set into place by the ulema to ensure that "muqliids" would have actual experts to go to, no different than one would want if one were to seek out a surgeon or engineer or a baker.

Being that they are the anti thesis to a methdology that is at the foundation of what millions follow and ahere to, the real question should be, why do you support and promote such men who represent such an ideology.

There are many in the Muslim world who cherish their works����give it a break brother.

And there are millions more who would like to bury their works.

And it was only that oil money was in abundance that any of their works ever saw the light of day. Kitab A Tawheed, Fiqh Assunah, or any of the works by the self trained muhadithun Albani, are thought of by a minority as being actual classics is due to the massive oil money that went behind their translating and production and distribution, while not deemed as much as a serious read by any reputable scholar of the four schools of fiqh.

Shaikh ibn Baz (Rahimahullah) has already met His Lord, you still have time to repent���make good use of that time. May Allah forgive us for our foolishness. Ameen! Wa Alaikum Salam

Sister, I completely respect you, and I am always refreshed by your good will and honesty, and you are so right on so many different levels with the above statement, and on a lot of other things you say and contribute to this fourm. But in this context, we simply cannot appeal to emotion.

Assalam Aleikum

As Salamu Alaikum

Bro Andalus,

You are so right there are many who cherish their works (the wahabi scholars) and many who bury them and I guess as far as the scholars are concerned I do tend to get emotional. 

There is far too much scholar bashing on the internet for the past few years��okay you say you are not bashing the wahabi scholars and they say they are not bashing the Bid'ah scholars��..to me both are bashing each other. That hurts.

Maybe your intention is good, they also say their intention is good��Insha Allah, Allah will be the final judge.

At the end of the day, we all can choose what to read and what to trash and we are only accountable for ourselves���but a word of caution to myself firstly and then to the rest of the members of this forum. We will also be accountable for each and every letter we type, our hands, feet, eyes ears, all our faculties are going to bear witness for or against us. So beware brothers and sisters.

Bro Knowledge, you posted a very good Dua. May Allah reward you for sharing it with us. Ameen! You know the more negative articles I read about any scholar, it arouses my curiosity to read more about them. I end up respecting them more than the scholars who wrote the negative articles about them. For me it works both ways.

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala bless us with useful knowledge. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam

 The Ahle Hadith (Wahhabi) leaders may have many good things with them. But I noticed that they are Ghair Muqallid (do not follow any one) and they do not respect/ believe in the good work done by the many scholars of the Ummah.... such as the Imams of the four Fiqah.

 If ever any argument is presented to the Ahle Hadith friends with some support from any scholar, they do not accept it and they say that they follow only the prophet s.a.w.s. Such attitude creates problems. When they do not trust any other scholar then how the others will look to Bin Baaz or any other Ahle Hadith person for guidance !!

If Bin Baaz wakes up his children for the morning prayer then that is very good of him and his children will benefit. But that sort of thing is being done by many other good Muslims too. Was it necessary to mention what Bin Baaz sahib was doing??

Andalus wrote: Alwardah wrote: As Salamu Alaikum Bro Andulus, I still don�t understand your immense dislike for the wahabi scholars as you call them.   It is not personal. It is not the individuals per say, or what kind of people they were. It is about the ideology they espouse which is the anti thesis to over a thousand years of scholarship that has served Muslims for generations. It is the anti thesis to solid pieces of work that we now call the four madhabs which is the product of centuries of scholarship by people who were experts in their field and fulfilled the qualifications and standards set into place by the ulema to ensure that "muqliids" would have actual experts to go to, no different than one would want if one were to seek out a surgeon or engineer or a baker.   Being that they are the anti thesis to a methdology that is at the foundation of what millions follow and ahere to, the real question should be, why do you support and promote such men who represent such an ideology.   There are many in the Muslim world who cherish their works����give it a break brother.   And there are millions more who would like to bury their works. And it was only that oil money was in abundance that any of their works ever saw the light of day. Kitab A Tawheed, Fiqh Assunah, or any of the works by the self trained muhadithun Albani, are thought of by a minority as being actual classics is due to the massive oil money that went behind their translating and production and distribution, while not deemed as much as a serious read by any reputable scholar of the four schools of fiqh.     Shaikh ibn Baz (Rahimahullah) has already met His Lord, you still have time to repent���make good use of that time. May Allah forgive us for our foolishness. Ameen! Wa Alaikum Salam Sister, I completely respect you, and I am always refreshed by your good will and honesty, and you are so right on so many different levels with the above statement, and on a lot of other things you say and contribute to this fourm. But in this context, we simply cannot appeal to emotion. Assalam Aleikum

Salaamu Alaykum,

JAK for that succint explanation, Brother Andalus.  I had actually taken the time to look up some things about the Brother Ibn Baaz in a few places.  I appreciate your comments as well as knowing that some of our Brothers and Sisters admire this person.  Generally I agree with your assesment, and I appreciate your opinions on this.  This is a discussion board, and we should always be careful of what we say, do think, write, comment, and post.  When people post threats of Allah, The Most Loving, to prove their points and as if their points were completely supported By Allah, The All-Knowing, and the person they are disagreeing with is opposing our Loving Lord, I find it distasteful, inappropriate, and childish.  Your response, however, was mature and thoughtful.  JAK.

Sorry, Brother Knowledge that you intended this to be a tribute to the man's good qualities, and that is why I didn't post anything after I researched and realized who this person was and some of the other things he has done and caused to be done through his teachings.

However, when we post things here, we need to expect that people will disagree with us.  Maybe you could entitle it:  A Tribute to Ibn Baaz, no negative comments please" ?

Any good deed will be reward by Allah, The Just, and waking children lovingly and consistently for Salat is certainly one of them.

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

When one talks about accountability before Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala on the Day of Judgment I don�t see how that translates to threats. If someone sees that as a threat then they are denying almost half the teachings of the Glorious Qur'an.

My comments have always being distasteful and inappropriate and childish to you sister Herjihad whenever I quote from the Glorious Qur'an or Hadith pointing to Allah�s punishment.

Just as any good deed is reward by the Most Loving, Most Merciful Allah so will every bad or evil deed be punished by the same Most Loving, Most Merciful Allah. HE has told us so many times in the Glorious Qur'an.

Furthermore this is a discussion forum, so we should not be painting a rosy picture for people who are trying to find the true teachings of Islam- that there is only reward and no punishment. Its only when we realize that we will be accountable for our actions that we strive to do good and refrain from doing evil.

May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala guide us and save us from our shortcomings. Ameen!

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

As Salamu Alaikum

Sister I don't have a grudge against anyone who does not agree with me, so there is no need for a new thread.

Your comments were directed to me even though you were responding to the brother's comments, and I had responded as such.

We have walked down this road many times in the past. Quote from the Quran or Sunnah about Hell-fire or punishment, or accountability and you get offended. Only Allah knows why?

May Allah forgive me for abusing His Name to prove a point.�meen

He knows my intention and He will reward me or punishment me as He feels fits.

Have a good day Sister,

Wa Alaikum Salam

I remind you of this Hadith Qudsi:  When Allah, SWT, created this earth, He promised that his Mercy is Greater Than His Wrath.

My dear sisters, please do shed off the coldness of your hearts. Its satan who 's waving between you. Please, let's not hurt each other, remember, these days are very auspicious. Hope you solve yourselves thru PMs.

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Sister Herijihad

If I did attack you or Brother Andalus, then Insha Allah I will apologize and beg Allah�s forgiveness.

Your comment was in respond to Bro Andalus response to my post. Correct.

Your comment:

Generally I agree with your assesment, and I appreciate your opinions on this.  This is a discussion board, and we should always be careful of what we say, do think, write, comment, and post.  When people post threats of Allah, The Most Loving, to prove their points and as if their points were completely supported By Allah, The All-Knowing, and the person they are disagreeing with is opposing our Loving Lord, I find it distasteful, inappropriate, and childish

So where did I post threats of Allah to brother Andalus, show me, where did I use Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala�s name in an inappropriate manner to prove my point, Or maybe the �people� did not refer to me. I doubt it because if it did, all you had to do was say so, that you did not refer to me and were speaking generally. If I made a mistake and jumped to the wrong conclusions because of our past discussions, then all you had to do was correct that misconception.

All I pointed out to brother Andalus is that ibn Baz is dead, and he Brother Andalus still has time to repent��.is that a threat. To me that is a Nasiha��.. Masha Allah brother Andalus has a good knowledge of the scholars and their background and he also has a good knowledge about Islam, so basically I was disappointed he found my Nasiha as emotional. No problem, I explained my point to him, in my next post. Maybe that post was the one in which I threaten the brother by reminding him that we are accountable for all our actions big or small. It was no threat to you brother it is a fact repeated many times in the Glorious Qur'an. Oops using the Qur'an again to prove my point���but it�s not an opinion sister it is a fact. I don�t use Qur'an or Hadith for opinions only to prove a point, a fact.

Sister you can call me childish and an idiot or what ever you fancy, I don�t mind but don�t say that I threaten the brother because I asked him to repent, or accuse me of posting threats of Allah, the Most Loving, to prove my points. If Ayah from the Glorious Qur'an or Sunnah are used in support then Insha Allah, Allah�s support is there as well. The disagreeing person can also quote from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah to substantiate their point of view. This is the general principle, agreeing to disagree with evidence.

Brother Andalus, if you took my post as an attack on you, you should have said so in the first place. Be honest from the start, there was no need for you to say:

�Sister, I completely respect you, and I am always refreshed by your good will and honesty,�������.

Some times, we are so busy worrying about the faults of others that we fail to see our own. We are all human and we all make mistakes, if we don�t make mistakes we cannot learn; and the beauty of all this is that the channels are open to seek forgiveness from each other.

I would have asked your forgiveness immediately brother Andalus if you felt that I attacked you.

I would have even asked your forgiveness immediately sister Herjihad if only you stated that your comment was general; not anyone in particular and definitely not me. All this unpleasantness would have being avoided.

The reason why I do not respond to your comments sister, point-to-point, is I have a bad habit of quoting from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah in support of what I need to say as you know. So I try to be brief to avoid an even worse confrontation with you, which ever way we go, it turns sour.

Thanks for reminding me about that beautiful Hadith Qudsi.  Insha Allah, Allah will reward you with Khairan both in this world and the next. Ameen!

These are happy days - its Eid Al-Adha if I hurt you sister or brother Andalus in anyway, I beg your forgiveness if you have it in your hearts to forgive me.

Eid Mubarak to everyone

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

Alwardah wrote:   Brother Andalus, if you took my post as an attack on you, you should have said so in the first place. Be honest from the start, there was no need for you to say: �Sister, I completely respect you, and I am always refreshed by your good will and honesty,�������.

Slow down sister. I have not read every detail of this thread since my last reply due to time problems.

I have never been offended by anything you have said and I was honest with you and I have no problem with you and there is nothing to ask forgiveness for. :) Really!!

Slow down Sis! I am sooooo busy right now and hope to participate again later this week. May Allah forgive us all.

Andalus wrote: Alwardah wrote:   Brother Andalus, if you took my post as an attack on you, you should have said so in the first place. Be honest from the start, there was no need for you to say: �Sister, I completely respect you, and I am always refreshed by your good will and honesty,�������. Slow down sister. I have not read every detail of this thread since my last reply due to time problems. I have never been offended by anything you have said and I was honest with you and I have no problem with you and there is nothing to ask forgiveness for. :) Really!! Slow down Sis! I am sooooo busy right now and hope to participate again later this week. May Allah forgive us all.

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother

Jazakallahu Khairan for your response, you have relieved me from a great burden.

Ameen! To your Dua

Wa Alaikum Salam

Alwardah wrote: Andalus wrote: Alwardah wrote:   Brother Andalus, if you took my post as an attack on you, you should have said so in the first place. Be honest from the start, there was no need for you to say: �Sister, I completely respect you, and I am always refreshed by your good will and honesty,�������. Slow down sister. I have not read every detail of this thread since my last reply due to time problems. I have never been offended by anything you have said and I was honest with you and I have no problem with you and there is nothing to ask forgiveness for. :) Really!! Slow down Sis! I am sooooo busy right now and hope to participate again later this week. May Allah forgive us all. As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Jazakallahu Khairan for your response, you have relieved me from a great burden. Ameen! To your Dua Wa Alaikum Salam

Assalam Aleikum!

Sr, there should never have been a burden and now I feel bad.

Sister, I have THICK skin. Really. I do thank you for your concern, and the forum is blessed to have you here in it. Thank you for coming back.

Thankyou for sharing that piece of information with us sister. All parents should try to encourage thier young ones for Salah.

Oh wow, its funny, but congratulations Mr �scholar�.

Now lets look at what the Wahhabi sites don�t say about him.

Further can be read from the site below, here is just a few extracts.

Heres a few paragraphs from this site:

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As former overall president of the Directorships of Scholarly Research, Ift�', Da`wa, and Irsh�d, Ibn Baz is on record for issuing a fatwa declaring as unislamic the Palestinian people's uprising against the Jewish State of Israel, whereas he never condemned the practices, in his own country, of gambling, horse-racing, and usury. In the late sixties he declared any and all forms of cooperation with the kuff�r prohibited and cast a judgment of apostasy on `Abd al-Nasir for employing a civilian force of a few hundred Russian engineers to build the Aswan dam. In the early nineties he again made it hal�l for kufr forces to come, under their flag and sovereignty, in hundred of thousands, to occupy Muslim lands and destroy Iraq, because of "necessity." There was also no problem for them to stay after the "necessity" was over.

In his infamous al-Adilla al-Naqliyya wa al-Hissiyya `ala Jarayan al-Shamsi wa Sukuni al-Ard ("The Transmitted and Sensory Proofs of the Rotation of the Sun and Stillness of the Earth"), he asserted that the earth was flat and disk-like and that the sun revolved around it.

Like all the anthropomorphists of his School, Ibn Baz added modifiers to the Divine Attributes, asserting, for example, that Allah Most High and Exalted "istaw� `al� al-`arsh haqqan" - variously translated as "He established Himself over the Throne in person" or "actually" or "literally" - haqqan being an innovated addition which violates the practice of the true Salaf consisting in asserting the Divine Attributes bil� kayf - without "how" - any modifier being by definition a modality. What is worse, of course, is that such an innovated addition is an avenue to anthropomorphism.

 In his footnote to article 38 of Imam al-Tahawi's `Aqida http://www.abc.se/%7Em9783/o/t-aq_e.html - - - - - - - - ("He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created entities are"), he asserts, "Allah is beyond limits that we know but has limits He knows." This is, like haqqan, a true innovation of misguidance and innovated phrase as stated by al-Dhahabi and others, utterly unsupported by the Qur'an, the Sunna, and the Consensus, and violating the practice of the true Salaf who refrained from indulging in speculations of modality whenever they mentioned the Divine Attributes. (This footnote also appears in Shu`ayb Hassan's translation in English, which also contains other major doctrinal errors.) 

In his tract translated into English as Authentic Islamic Aqeedah and What Opposes It (p. 16), Ibn Baz calls those who visit the graves of saints "unbelievers" who commit what he calls kufr al-rub�biyya. This fatwa compounds three innovations: (1) the dreadful sin of indiscriminately declaring millions of Muslims k�fir without the proofs and due process required by the purified Shari`a: (2) the blind, wholesale dismissal of the numerous orders of the Prophet http://www.abc.se/%7Em9783/durood.gif - -

- . http://www.abc.se/%7Em9783/ibaz_e.html#fn7 -  

Another astonishing deviation of Ibn Baz in his remarks on Fath al-Bari is his characterizing the visit of the Companion Bilal ibn al-Harth - Allah be well-pleased with him - to the grave of the Prophet - Allah bless and greet him - and his tawassul for rain there as "aberrant" (munkar) and "an avenue to polytheism" (was�la il� al-shirk)." http://www.abc.se/%7Em9783/ibaz_e.html#fn8 - 8

One of his innovations in us�l is his public declaration - in the Saudi periodical al-Majalla - that he does not adhere to the Hanbali Madhhab "but only to the Qur'an and Sunna," whereas Ibn Taymiyya said himself asserted in Mukhtasar al-Fatawa al-Misriyya that the truth is not found, in the whole Shari`a, outside the four Schools. Nor have any two Sunni Ulema on the face of the earth agreed on the qualification of Ibn Baz as an absolute Mujtahid capable of extracting his own proofs and School from the primary evidences of the Law. On the contrary, his fiqh is superficial compared to his subordinate Ibn `Uthaymin, his natural bent for taql�d is evident, his blunders numerous, and his innovations countless.

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 So much for your "scholars"

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We are as pieces of chess engaged in victory and defeat, our victory and defeat is from thee.