Anatolian,

you said:-

All this effort you put in pointing your silly little fingers at Christianity and
the West know this. Palestine and millions of Muslim orphans and families
are surviving by the good grace of Christians. Maybe if Muslims truly
loved one another then Pakistanis and Afghans should raise money for
Palestinian children and not Jihad

There are many muslims who do not point the finger at Christians. As there are many Christians who do not point the finger at muslims.

If fingers are to point anywhere they should be directed at those in our own faith. I try to respect everyone regardless of their religion, race, or colour. At the end of the day we all belong to God/Allah, and we should be making the world more peaceful for all. The British are often critised for the wrong they have done in the past, with little emphasis on the good they do now. Whilst politics generally controls everything and everybody everywhere, the world has little chance to live peacefully and in harmony with one another. Stripping everyone of their  position and pride would make us all equal in the eyes of God/Allah.

I have great respect for religious leaders including the Pope,  he unifies his people.

Many Christians fail to understand Islam. Many muslims fail and often dont try to understand Christianity. That is their choice. But none of us can hide from God/Allah. On one thing we can all agree, that is we all will stand before Him and answer for our deeds. The Allah I worship now, is exactly the same God I worshipped before.  And He knows me very well, understands me, and guides me.

I know that many Christians do many many good things for others, especially muslims. I am not so blinkered to see this fact.  Christians will always be Christian with others. So thankyou.

Anatolian, obviously you have a long way to go before you truly understand the Palestinian problem.  I have read the book you mentioned as well as done a great deal of study into this matter.  Evangelical Christians have been the largest supporters outside of Israel for building the illegal settlements.  The people who live in these settlements steal the land from the Palestinians, bulldoze their homes down and force them into these refugee camps.  Also, what research have you done into the aid Arab countries have given?  Just because it doesn't always reach our media here in America doesn't meant the arab countries aren't helping the Palestinians though I admit they could do more.  Just yesterday it was announced Saudi would be giving $500 million. 

Before you speak you need to do more than read one book.  Also, that book is very pro palestinian and does not side with the Christians hardly at all.  I am not sure where you got your view point.  Here is another book for you to read "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" by John J. Mearcheimer and Stephen M. Walt.  This book can help you to get even more insight.  It just came out this year so it is up to date.

Hi Anatolian,

I suppose the only thing I can add to this thread is this.

The Jewish people were scattered over the face of the earth. From what I understand, God allowed this to happen when the Jews failed to recognise Christ as the Son of God.

However the Jews also know that in the last days they will be allowed to return to Israel, the promised land. This was Gods promise to them. So it will be then I suppose that the Jews can, without compromise from anyone else, be able to worship freely in the Dome of the Rock.

Of course at this time the great battle of Armegeddon will take place. Israel will belong to its rightful owner. As like the rest of the world, carnage will be at its greatest. Only the righteous will escape and God/Allah will save those he chooses to. Some will say the fortunate will be taken in the 'blink of an eye' But we also know that some righteous people, as is in the case of many current world events, will be caught up in the fighting, and perish.

I have yet to fully understand The Islamic view on the end of the world, So would appreciate it if someone could explain it to me. I only heard one explanation about gogmegog. And that was a bit difficult to understand, as a young muslim boy told me that lots of little people came out of the earth with picks and swords killing all the bad people.

Anatolian, I cant give a satisfactory explanation as to why the peoples of the world are so misplaced, and ill treated. But one thing is for sure, God/Allah gives us the opportunity as individuals , to gain knowledge, so that hopefully we are in the right place at the right time when the all important and inevitable end of the world takes place.

NB I have written this without intending harm or upset to any religion or person. So please remember that I am only poor martha, trying to make sense of it all myself.

Anatolian wrote: Excuse me I don't remember defending Israel in my post neither do I defend the settlements. I believe Palestinians have a right to demand what belongs to them. They are the ones who were forcefully removed to create a state for a people who barely share any common roots. I know more of the conflict there then you Mrs. Wife. Your attacking me for really no reason. I stated that Palestinians receive more aid from non- muslims then many of you would like to think. I know all about the secret deals being made by Syria, Lebanon, and most of the Arab world who are still in a "war" state with Israel. And of course the open dialogues and economies of countries like Jordan, Egypt, and Saudia Arabia never help the Palestinian cause. You want my opinion about that affair. At this point the Jews are there to stay no matter what anybody else wishes. Jerusalem is to become under a Jewish, Christian, and Muslim leadership, stop settlements in Jerusalem and the West Ban and return the land that was forcefully taken and the Israelis can keep the ones they purchased legally. At this point this is the only way to go. Evangelicals are not helping I never said I supported what they do. They are forcefully bringing the "end" of days by reestablishing a Jewish state in the land that was once called Israel. What's 500 million for the Saudis really? If they stopped funding Jihad infused madrasas in Pakistan and Africa and spent it on funding real schools and hospitals and actually buying back the land even (everything has a price) wouldn't that help the Palestinian lot?

Anatolian, forgive me if your original post seemed to side with Israel rather than the Palestinians.  That was the impression I got.  Thankyou for clarifying that with your rude attack at me and your presumption of what I do or do not know.

I also agree that Israel is not going anywhere and people need to get over that.  Yet Israel's illegal actions and victimizing need to be stopped.  As you said, the land stolen from them should be returned and Jerusalem be made available for all three religions. 

It is not to say that Christians haven't done a lot for Palestinians.  I don't deny this.  What I do say is they also raise considerable money for Israel to continue building settlements which defeats the purpose of helping the weaker Palestinians.  The US government gives over 4 billion dollars a year to Israel and sometimes up to 10 billion.  I hardly think the 500 million they are giving the Palestinians compares.  I cannot see how you can think giving the big, stronger guy considerably more money is made up for by giving the weakened one a much smaller figure.  It barely helps anything and often Israel stops the money from getting to the Palestinians anyway.  These are my points.

As for it being preached that there are 3 Gods, in essence that is what many Christians preach.  I was arguing this with my Pentacostal family just recently.  All growing up I was told that the Father, son and holy spirit are the seperate entities that make up God.  Yet I couldn't figure out how the son could speak to the father if there is only one God.  Yet they preach that Jesus is God too.  I cannot speak for every sect of Christianity, but I can speak for what I learned in the Pentacostal and Baptists churches I went to and was babtized in.  Finally when none of my questions could get answered, I gave up and found a religion that did satisfy my answers and made sense. 

So I would appreciate you speaking to me as someone whose roots are in America since before the United States became a country and was forced to sit many Sundays in church.  I am not defending all that the arab countries do.  I think they could have helped the Palestinians in a far more productive way and I never said they did do a lot for them (I had quoted that they should do more if you had read that).  Also, I agree they often do more harm than good.  Yet you cannot accuse all arabs/muslims of not trying to help Palestinians.  There are plenty that do just like Christians.  Which you obviously know from your statements that Christians do a lot to further the Israeli cause of gaining all of the land it wants.  Until Christians stop doing that, I can't take the donations they give to Palestinians more seriously.  Remember the US government is Christian (except a couple of congressman).  If you can blame all muslims for their governments actions than you can blame all Christians for their governments actions.  Otherwise you need to seperate the two and give them each their own credit.

As for religious tolerance in the United States, it is better than many countries, but it is far from perfect.  I can't get days off for the muslim holidays but the Christians can.  I can't go to Friday prayers at the mosque because they are held during work hours.  Yet Christians can be given time to go to church.  I don't even have the right to wear the hijab at my work, so please don't tell me about religious freedom.  I don't see it being perfect as you seem to display it here in America.

martha wrote: I suppose the only thing I can add to this thread is this. The Jewish people were scattered over the face of the earth. From what I understand, God allowed this to happen when the Jews failed to recognise Christ as the Son of God.

Please don't add some thing that is not historical fact--They do not recognize Christ being the son of god even today and lots of other folks- the destruction of the temple and the Jewish diaspora was the result of them not recognizing Roman emperor "Caligula" as god and rising up in revolt and losing.

martha wrote: However the Jews also know that in the last days they will be allowed to return to Israel, the promised land. This was Gods promise to them.

You need some history lesson here so bear with me!

The promise of God for the promised land was for all children of Israel from slavery to freedom and not for the Jews only that did come to pass after their roaming in the desert of Sinai.  And then they refuse to do the God's missionary work and bickered and fought among themselves till they were destroyed by the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar II and taken in slavery to Babylon. They were given a second chance but their were allowed to come back o Jerusalem but then again the same story of   political infighting and love of money against God's laws. The God's contract with children  of  Israel was annulled by the immaculate birth of Jesus born of Mary.  It was sign from God with this miraculous birth that the chain of God's revelation  was to be finally pulled away with Jesus being the last chance to repent and believe through the House of Israel. But when Jesus flipped their money tables in the Temple they planned to have him killed/crucified and lose their way. Then there was nothing left but  confusion and conjecture that has made up the sects and religions that came out of the ashes of destroyed Jerusalem by Caligula's forces!

Out of lost tribes of Israel what was left the Juda's; the jews they survived with their love of money intact and they imploded their old captors in Europe and benefactors amongst Ottomans into wars and out came the monster of Zionism.  The Zionist schemed with their  background in the modern warfare being nurtured in the homes of the colonialists to  dispossess Arab Palestinians of their homes. The world was in disarray after the great wars and  any claim against an Arab lands was fair game for the colonialist. The countries were created as the winner of the WWII saw fit so that is the way Zionist saw the opportunity to have a  the  piece of the province called Ottoman Palestine, they had better armed than the local leaderless camel riders -- In final analysis you snooze you lose. There are other causes too but I leave those for some other time. 

martha wrote: So it will be then I suppose that the Jews can, without compromise from anyone else, be able to worship freely in the Dome of the Rock.

Martha  do you know what the Dome of the Rock is?

Non Muslim particularly the Jews (& Xians) are forbidden to go over the Temple Mount where the Dome of the Rock is located till the arrival of their messiah. The Xians are the ones who brought the most filth to the Temple Mount during their occupation of Jerusalem.

Jews can pray at the wailing wall (the western wall)only.

martha wrote: Of course at this time the great battle of Armageddon will take place. Israel will belong to its rightful owner. As like the rest of the world, carnage will be at its greatest. Only the righteous will escape and God/Allah will save those he chooses to. Some will say the fortunate will be taken in the 'blink of an eye' But we also know that some righteous people, as is in the case of many current world events, will be caught up in the fighting, and perish.

In the Book of Revelation, God, ushering in the Great Tribulation judgments, commands seven angels to pour "seven vials of the wrath of God" upon the Earth. Armageddon then follows the pouring of the sixth vial (or bowl):

"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

They are trying to make it self fulfilling prophesy by creating a destruction in ME and justifying the killing for sake of oil. Why did boy king invaded Iraq cuz he was totally immersed in the  dual propaganda on one side the evangelical Xians and other the MIC conglomerates itching for the loot. Now the biggest den of thieves and  killers is housed(Occupation HQ) in area called Green zone is right on the  Euphrates riverbend walled of behind 12 feet tall concrete barriers like the infamous Berlin Walls in Baghdad as we speak.

Has anybody seen angels come down to approve all that when the death toll is running over a million Iraqi civilians and thousands of Americans dead and wounded and trillion tax payer dollars down the pockets of thieving  corporations. Where was the other army? The concept of Armageddon is based on the preterist gobbledygook:

martha wrote: I have yet to fully understand The Islamic view on the end of the world, So would appreciate it if someone could explain it to me.

I just wanted to pick up on something Salams_wife said. I hope you are not including the UK in your list of countries regarding the immigrants. We do allow them to come here and settle, and work like the rest of us. There is a huge gap between British and Asian communities still, but not as the fault of the British Government. We are strict with anyone who does not follow the rules ie illegals, though we should be more strict. Muslim women can wear the hijab in most work places, and employers do allow their workers to go for Friday prayers. I have to say though that many muslims abuse this and take extra time to socialise after prayers. I dont feel this is right, but thats my view. Islam is freely taught in schools, along with other religions, and ramadan and Eid is recognised as important to muslims. There are a growing number of muslim politicians. Any disturbance of the peace is usually kept between rival muslim gangs, so we generally dont see the rioting as happens in France. Of course we are only a small country, and dont have religious belts as the US, so it is probably easier here in some ways.  It's a shame that the US being a world super power, has so many internal issues. It must be hard sometimes for you salam's_wife.

OK back to the topic. My previous comments were Bible based. These in themselves become part of history at some point. But as much as possible I stear clear of politics. That subject never satisfies anyone, and we keep going over old ground. But thats my opinion.I realise that the Jews have yet to accept Jesus as the Son of GOd. And I dont know if they realise about the final gathering in Israel. I only mentioned the Jews, because of the Bible connection. I have yet to understand if muslims were mentioned in the Bible regarding the last days.

I do know that the Dome of the Rock is significant for both Jews and Muslims. Many years back when I was in Israel I visited it, and also the Wailing Wall. Yes, I did pray at the Wailing Wall, and left a note in the wall as is permitted(well it was then,dont know now)

I know I have kept my answer very brief again. And I have probably left out more important details again And I'm very happy when someone corrects me. Its the best way to learn isnt it? Unfortunately I dont have foresight to anothers reaction when I post here.So bear with me if I seem dumb sometimes. My intentions are always well meant.

Dear salams_wife,

There has been a  misunderstanding I'm afraid. You didnt specifically mention Britain, that's why I said 'I hope you're not including the UK'. Dont apologise, these things happen to us all . Salaams sister

 Salam-wife post of 20th December (2 posts) are very good. Anatolian has also explained his previous posts and seems to know a lot about Muslim countries. The Saudis may be giving money to the Palestinians. But what they are doing in their own country is more important. There is a one man rule. Many Muslim countries could learn a good lesson of decent behavious towards masses from the nearby democratic countries.

 Too much love of the religion without understanding it and without actually practicing it has let down the Muslim countries. There is all sorts of corruption there. I would feel that there is no freedom of speech in Muslim countries. That was the basic principle of Islam. Same is being denied now even in Makkah.

Martha was right in saying that Jews were punished due to rejecting Jesus. S-R has tried to give different reason that the Jews did not agree to the Roman Emperor Caligula or revolted against him. I agree with the reason given by Martha. This act of rebelion was also due to not accepting a man of God (Jesus). The Jews were misled people once they rejected Jesus. So the calamity befell them as a punishment.

People might think of you as an anti Semite we wouldnt want that to happen would we?

Some, in fact, most of us who can see through this "Aunty See Might" scam really are not bothered by or even about it. The number of people who are getting irritated by this blackmail is increasing by the hour.

There was a very interesting debate at Oxford the othe week when I was in England. Very interesting trend is now rising. Please take this label and stick it on a lamp post nearest your door.

Why should any Pakistani, Saudi or Afghans pay for the Anglo-American crime against the Palestinians. Almost the whole world had asked the Imperial Masters of that time not to play with such fire.

You created it, my son, now you pay for it. Don't ever mention Afghan or Afghanistan in any of your deformed posts.

minuteman wrote:    Too much love of the religion without understanding it and without actually practicing it has let down the Muslim countries. There is all sorts of corruption there. I would feel that there is no freedom of speech in Muslim countries. That was the basic principle of Islam. Same is being denied now even in Makkah.

Are you 100% sure that Saudi Arabia is absolutely a free place? Have you tried to travel in that place as an observer of reality? It is garrisoned in disguise country and OBL had stated his fundamental dispute on that long time ago and Rep. Ron Paul also reiterated that in  Republican Prez'l debates. It is an open  secret now. There is hardly any free Muslim country that has any natural resource that the west needs or has some strategic location.

As long as they are under neo colonial scheme of the supremo US/K; how can we talk about the rule of the law. The law is for the free people and not for the slaves per se. And freedom doen't come free! You know even Quran reduces the penalty for the slaves by 50%.

minuteman wrote: Martha was right in saying that Jews were punished due to rejecting Jesus.

Martha wrote: The Jewish people were scattered over the face of the earth. From what I understand, God allowed this to happen when the Jews failed to recognise Christ as the Son of God. &I realise that the Jews have yet to accept Jesus as the Son of GOd

minuteman wrote: S-R has tried to give different reason that the Jews did not agree to the Roman Emperor Caligula or revolted against him. I agree with the reason given by Martha. This act of rebelion was also due to not accepting a man of God (Jesus). The Jews were misled people once they rejected Jesus. So the calamity befell them as a punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War - First Jewish-Roman War

 S-R, you are right about the destruction of jeroshlem by the Romans. Punishment does not come at once. Had the Jews accepted Jesus as a prophet of God then they would have been guided to a better thinking, better way of life. Istead they became disobedient, disloyal. After 40 years (i.e. 70 A.D.) their time was up. The serious punishment "Azaab" comes after rejecting the man of God, sooner or later.

 If the Jews had accepted Jesus as a prophet then they would have benefitted. They would even have got freedom from the rule of Romans in a peaceful way, some how. First they had to behave themselves amongst themselves before they could prosper in the world.

 I was in agreement with your post excpt that I had connected the punishment of the Jews with the rejection of Isa a.s. And I did not take good note of Marthas remark about the Jews accepting Jesus as son of God. That was my mistake and not true and not necessary. Thanks for your correcting advice.

Sign*Reader, you have asked that I review my posts with this question in mind.

Martha: Would you mind reviewing your posts?
Why  you want Jews to accept Jesus as SOG?

My comments were written from the CHristian perspective only. I only passed on what I understood from my pre-muslim days, and as such your question needs no answer. But I see where you're coming from  Sign*Reader, you need to understand that I embraced Islam, in all  faith that all would be revealed to me as and when necessary. Answers dont come in one big package.

 And it matters not to me how the Jews accept Jesus.