Salaam To:ALL

Varshaken has already started the topic on Islam and Buddhism and I feel it is necessary for muslims to get basic understanding of Buddhism before lengthy discussios starts.

Muslims involved in comparative analysis must acquaint themselves with 'Buddhist Mindset'. There is no point quoting literal Quranic text when we have not established a common theme. We as muslims always tend to asserts our righteousness at the expense of the other.

Remember literal quotation from Quran will not satisfy a Buddhist Mind because they are deeply Meditative and Philisophical people. Some muslims tend to shy away from Meditative and Philosophical discussions. Every religion has set of Ideas and Muslims must make an effort to understand from a comparative analysis point of view.

Varshaken is from Sri lanka ( I presume). So here is a bit of Background on Buddhism:

Buddhism A brief Synopsis

Buddhism has been divided into two major branches which have in turn been subdivided into numerous sects. Today one may find in this one family of religions nearly every form of religious belief and expression on the planet.

Hinayana (Lesser Vehicle) or Theravada Buddhism concentrated in Southeast Asia ( Main form of religion in SRiLanka )is conservative and more closely follows the original teachings of Buddha. It sees man as entirely dependent on self-effort, teaches wisdom as the key virtue and regards religion as a full-time job, primarily for monks. They regard Buddha as a saint, eschew metaphysics and ritual, and limit prayer to meditation. Their ideal is arhat (sainthood).

Mahayana (Greater Vehicle) Buddhism has spread throughout the world and rests on the principle that Buddha taught many things in secret to the elect who could properly interpret them. It sees man as involved with others and saved by grace. It teaches compassion as the key virtue and believes its religion is relevant to life in the world; therefore, it is a religion for laymen as well as monks.

. The Mahayana branch sees Buddha as a savior, welcomes metaphysics and ritual, and engages in petitionary prayer. Their ideal is the Bodhisattva--a mortal who has achieved enlightenment and after death postpones Nirvana attainment to serve in heaven answering prayers. Their ideal is the Bodhisattva--a mortal who has achieved enlightenment and after death postpones Nirvana attainment to serve in heaven answering prayers and helping mortals who are in need.

Mahayana Buddhism regards Buddha as a divine savior--pre-existent, planfully incarnate, supernaturally conceived, miraculously born, sinless, with a redemptive purpose, all knowing, and everlasting.

Hope this intro will kick start the discussuion on Buddhism now:

Regards

Fuhad

Thankyou very much my dear brother Fuhad for formally starting the topic, though it was exhaustively being dicussed elsewhere and hopefully, now someone among the administrator may bring that discussion to this thread. BTW where were you uptill this time. Your short introduction on Buddhaism was badly needed once I started discussing it with Bro Varshaken long time ago. Nevertheless, its still good to foramlize the discussion.

Now coming to general understanding of true Buddhaism, I not sure how one can still find an original authentic version (teachings) of Buddhaism taught by Gotama, especially once it is said "Today one may find in this one family of religions nearly every form of religious belief and expression on the planet." Hope to hear some good discussion on it from brothers like Varshaken and others from Buddhaism.

I was impressed about Buddism when I learned Buddha said that everyone could attain enlightenment.

ie. state of Buddha

amlhabibi2000 wrote: I was impressed about Buddism when I learned Buddha said that everyone could attain enlightenment. ie. state of Buddha

Kindly do let me know which Buddha said this as there were numerous Buddha from time immorial to present day, the living Buddha. How do you find that it is the right Buddhaism and not one of those who got mixed up their true values with other cultural impressions or beliefs etc and is highly improbable to discern right from the false? 

As far as I know it was Buddha, Setartah I cannot spell his name.

I always thought there was only one Buddha....

Salaam To: Anne

Welcome to the forum.

Since there is dogmatic legitimism in Shia version of Islam and Subtle dogmas and some rituals in Sunni version if Islam. Dont you think it would have been better not to put your belief in concepts of heaven , hell, dogmas of Imams ( in the case Shia version ), then submitting to one book i.e Koran, whereas Buddhism is doesn't require all these creedal beliefs. Buddhism is paragmatic as well, it doesn't send people to hell as in the case of Islam.

I was thinking why did you choose Islam instead of Buddhism. What are the Physical and Spiritual significance of Islam compared to Buddhism from your own experience.

Regards

Fuhad

I was thinking why did you choose Islam instead of Buddhism. What are the Physical and Spiritual significance of Islam compared to Buddhism from your own experience.

Regards

Fuhad

I guess I was more impressed by the way Muslims Pray for some reason.

Though to be honest I find some similarities in all religions persay 1. prayer, 2. charity and good deeds, 3. The importance of Education and training to be able to support ones family, 4. Making Haj in a three fold way to self others and the world or places of Spiritual significance. 5. Just down right being a good person. 6. Stories and parables of inspiring events or people of which we can find in each of our lives as well.

I found the Quran very interesting and it opened my eyes to some spiritual truths that I had not thought about before.

One thing I did find with all religions or spiritual paths is that there are good and not so good people in varying degrees in everyone and I believe all these people submitt in Islam to Allah in degrees and they have every freedom to choose their return path to Allah.

I believe each revelation brings us forward to more spiritual truths and proofs and that revealation is something that happens within each of us for the world and Allah every moment, every second reveal truths to us and none of us is exempt from this.

I believe with the added spiritual guidance from Islam, Christianity or Buddhism or which ever path one has freely choosen then this assists us with debriefing on the critical and none critical information contained in what is revealed to us in our daily lives.

Some of us choose to belong to a certain path while others do not and each has freedom to choose their path and none can say what is right for themselves is right for others only in that we have felt welcomed, comforted and supported in the community of our choice.

I was going to attempt to learn arabic but I cannot afford an M Pod to down load all the Quran in arabic on it so will have to leave this for a future date.  Arabic is it seems a very challenging language to learn. One day maybe.  (Just a personal note)

I was married to a man from the middle east for seven years and I knew him 2 years before that.  We had family problems and I tried to resolve them by learning his language, cooking his countries foods and learning the culture but he still was not happy and there was some abuse so I eventually devorced him, I still enjoy learning about the people, culture and religions of the middle east and of course the foods.

When people ask me what is the right path I tell them they must do their home work for what works for me may not work for them.

However I do encourage people to look at the spiritual guidance within each religion and see how this meets up with their own personal beliefs and if they feel welcomed by the spiritual community they choose.

As I said one reason I feel Islam is good is because the prayer is daily and repetitive and this is good for bringing some stability and continuity to a person challenged by issues such as drug and alcol abuse, family violence etc.  But then prayer in any form is good too, Islam just has an interesting recipe for it.

As for Buddhism I am not certain that sitting all day and chanting matras is as spiritually moving a process as getting out there and helping others in the world.

I believe Buddhism has a place in the world and that people do benifit from following the teaching and making a spiritual journey.

Fuhad,

Please be aware that Anne Marie has not chosen Islam - her beliefs are not in line with what Muslims believe.  Please read the whole thread under "Inter Faith Call to Jihad" to see what some of her mixed up beliefs are (for example: we are all messiahs and we are all prophets...).  Don't be fooled.

Peace, ummziba.

Salaam To:Ummziba and Anne

Ummziba thanks for your clarification.

Anne

I would urge you to expound on the comments made by Ummziba and also to elaborate on the concepts of messiah and prophets when comparing it with Buddhism.

How do you feel being a messiah or prophet from a Buddhist perspective, because Buddha did said that an individual can attain nirvana through self -effort.

Regards

Fuhad

I would urge you to expound on the comments made by Ummziba and also to elaborate on the concepts of messiah and prophets when comparing it with Buddhism.

How do you feel being a messiah or prophet from a Buddhist perspective, because Buddha did said that an individual can attain nirvana through self -effort.

Regards

Fuhad

Dear Fuhad

In relation to a Person Being a Messiah and Prophet vs Buddha saying we all can reach Nirvana I believe this is true but it will take an ecredible arising in a positive way of all mankind.

It means that everyone is speacial in the eyes of Allah and none are disposable, it means that even the worse among us deserve some dignity.

It means that we as a  people must address the issues of ignorance in peoples lives.

People need information and training and places to ask any question or solution for any problem they are faced with, this place should be a supportive place and a place without fear.

Education, training Counseling, consultation and prayer with living prayers is some of the keys we are seeking to solve the ills ogf the world and for our selves.

It does not mean we all have to carry a banner and say we are a Messiah what it does mean is that we are educated to the best of our ability so we can cope with all the tests that the world throws at us in a dignified and respectful manner.

What this means is that what we create or leave uncreated leaves a lasting legacy in the world of being in all realms, physical and spiritual and in the minds of mankind.

It means that no child of Allah of any age is or can be considered as unimportant or not of value.

It means that no person should live without a home, without food, without training without a job, without medical attention or someone to love them.

It means that change must come to the world for what is to come in the future means all mankind must be unified and everyone must be educated and trained to deal with whta tests are to come.

We can create a lasting heaven on earth and within ourselves and others.

You see the time is short and even saddly as I speak lives are being lost sensely and without true respect or justice.

How many many lives must be lost before mankind understands that when they look into the face of anyone they are looking into the face of Allah for Allah is within us he is part of us and we must care for him in ourselves and others.  Not doing this means the world will become a very bleak place where few will wish to reside.

Addressing these issues will see a people arise and make manifest in asll the realms all the names and Attributes of Allah and thus at that time Allah will fully live among his People and be manifest.

So the choice is in our hands and action needs to be taken on the part of our governments and people to arise and become educated as best they can in all aspects of their lives, like anger management, family planning, good communication skills, healthy conflict resolution and a number of other workshops and supports that can assist us with the challenges we are faced with.

This is what I believe...

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Hi everyone sorry for interrupting. First of all your knowledge about different faiths is quite diverse Fuhad your indeed a humble Muslim which I feel is the real Islam. As for me technically I am Buddhist having been born to Sri Lankan parents myself. But names don�t matter I would be just as happy to be labelled a Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, just another longwinded way of saying I follow anything that emanates good.I have been fortunate to be brought up in a culturally diverse environment. I learnt most of my Islam in 2002 from a Catholic High School, which may seem strange. However I believe it was most needed as prejudice about the faith was spreading rapidly after Sept11.

Back to the topic the best place to start I guess is to explain the Law of Moral Causation (Kamma or Karma). (Karma meaning cause and effect)

People may express different opinions on the matter but my advice know both sides of the argument then using your rationale, think what you see fit.

What is Kamma, well it doesn�t mean good or bad. It is the direct effect or result after some action. It is genuinely believed by some not all that it means if someone endures terrible suffering during life that he/she has done something wrong not so. How is it moral to justify that if someone has a deformity that he/she has done something wrong he/she hasn�t it is just the unfortunate reality. This begs other arguments how is one person born so rich yet another so poor, how is one born in a society of peace and another in a state of war, how is one born to be happy and another so unhappy another kind and another wicked the comparison is endless. Well all this is simply due to past events.

Consider the horrible boxing day Tsunami is it the 250 000 people who died who invited this no. If we go back in time the first cause would have been the disturbance of the mantle the effect shifting of tectonic plates. The shifting becomes the cause effect becomes the dreadful Tsunami. The Tsunami becomes the cause and the effect becomes the destruction of so many lives. Yet it is surprising some people would think that they did something wrong or it is a sign from God it is simply the reality we are after all a part of nature that lives breathes, eats like other plants and animals.

There are five categories of Kamma according to Buddhism and Eastern philosophy.

Kamma Niy�ma: Order of act and result, eg desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results respectively.

Kamma Utu Niy�ma: Physical (inorganic) order, eg seasonal phenomena of winds and rains.

Kamma Bija Niy�ma: Order of germs or seeds (physical organic order) eg rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar canes. The Scientific theory of cells and genes and physical similarity of twins may be categorized in this order.

Kamma Citta Niy�ma: Order of mind or psychic law eg processes of consciousness (Citta Vithi), power of mind etc.

Kamma Dhamma Niy�ma: Order of the norm or the natural phenomena eg gravity, light, sound etc.

Hope this helps above sources from Buddhism in a Nutshell and The Idiots Guide to Buddhism.

Good Post Bro Sanjiv

I would like to extend your thinking to a little further by quoting yours and adding more food for thought:

Sanjiv wrote: ......................................   What is Kamma, well it doesn�t mean good or bad. It is the direct effect or result after some action. It is genuinely believed by some not all that it means if someone endures terrible suffering during life that he/she has done something wrong not so. How is it moral to justify that if someone has a deformity that he/she has done something wrong he/she hasn�t it is just the unfortunate reality.

What about intentions? If my intention is good but action got wrong or the vice versa, shall I still  meet with the reaction of my action and not with my intentions?

This begs other arguments how is one person born so rich yet another so poor, how is one born in a society of peace and another in a state of war, how is one born to be happy and another so unhappy another kind and another wicked the comparison is endless. Well all this is simply due to past events.

Consider the horrible boxing day Tsunami is it the 250 000 people who died who invited this no. If we go back in time the first cause would have been the disturbance of the mantle the effect shifting of tectonic plates. The shifting becomes the cause effect becomes the dreadful Tsunami. The Tsunami becomes the cause and the effect becomes the destruction of so many lives. Yet it is surprising some people would think that they did something wrong or it is a sign from God it is simply the reality we are after all a part of nature that lives breathes, eats like other plants and animals.

I think, its a way how people (usually poor and ignorant) find assuge to their helpless sufferings. However, having said that, we also know that since God has created everything through laws of nature, and for us to discover (thereby identify His glory), therefore, we must not only reflect back on our moral actions or deeds but also on our physical actions where we neglected in our endeavor to understand the physical causes of such disastors. Knowledge is a virtue in Islam, sort of compulsory for everyone muslim whosoever have means to it even if he has to make great efforts to attain it.

There five categories of Kamma according to Buddhism and Eastern philosophy.

What do you mean by " and Eastern philosophy"? Which eastern philosophy are you referring to if not the Pantheism?

Kamma Niy�ma: Order of act and result, eg desirable and undesirable acts produce corresponding good and bad results respectively.

Kindly see my comment above with regard to intentions kind of a thing.

Kamma Utu Niy�ma: Physical (inorganic) order, eg seasonal phenomena of winds and rains.   Kamma Bija Niy�ma: Order of germs or seeds (physical organic order) eg rice produced from rice-seed, sugary taste from sugar canes. The Scientific theory of cells and genes and physical similarity of twins may be categorized in this order.

These, I think, are simple and logical to understand as they are related to physical sciences.

Kamma Citta Niy�ma: Order of mind or physical law eg processes of consciousness (Citta Vithi), power of mind etc.

I not very clear about as how "order of mind" to be same as "physical law".

Kamma Dhamma Niy�ma: Order of the norm or the natural phenomena eg gravity, light, sound etc.

How is it different than 2nd and 3rd category? I even don't even see any logical reason to seperate them (2, 3 and 5) into three distinct categories? For scientists, they are all interrelated based on commonly known laws of physics. For example, in category # 2 (Kamma Utu Niy�ma) the laws of fluid dynamics are the governing principles, which ofcourse then, can't be separated from category # 3 (Kamma Bija Niy�ma), where again the these laws of fluid dynamics play a vital role such as flow of blood etc in living beings. Though, Inorganic or organic may appear different on their outward appearence, however, the basic laws of physics are common to both of them.

Seperating them into different categories implies ignorance to the basic laws of physics, which ofcourse were not known to people when these categories were defined. Isn't it?

Hope this helps above sources from Buddhism in a Nutshell and the Idiots Guide to Buddhism.

Thanks for your reference, I appreciate it, however, if a direct link is cut and pasted that would definitely help a lazy person like me to avoid googling around to find the referenced site but failed to find it. Thanks anyway for begining a thoughfull discussion.

HEY AhmadJoyia whats going down clown. Thanks for the reply sorry post a bit long.

Slight mistake mate with (Kamma Citta Niy�ma) typed physical law for this description. Also Eastern philosophy I mean ancient Indian, Burmese and (Thailand, Cambodia and Laos then known as Siam or further India). The people of those times were highly philosophical even the Middle East. Gravity was well known to them but they did not know the root cause of gravity but the effects are evident. They offcourse didn�t postulate that gravity kept the Earth and other planetary objects in orbit but they were fascinated in Astronomy. I hear from the Golden ages of Islam that medicine schools around Bagdad postulated the existence of micro-organisms since germs seemed to spread from contact, medical wards were then kept apart.

Before I elaborate further I have some other useful words that may help describe Kamma. Keep in mind Kamma is not only associated with humans but aslo everything else.

Kamma = Action and result or Changes

Quote Ahmad Joyia

[

What about intentions? If my intention is good but action got wrong or the vice versa, shall I still  meet with the reaction of my action and not with my intentions?

Aren't you contradicting your own position stated above and I quote "How is it moral to justify that if someone has a deformity that he/she has done something wrong he/she hasn�t it is just the unfortunate reality.

]

Kamma isn�t a divine spirit nor is it a hidden cosmic energy that adjudicates justice if we do something wrong it is just a term to generalise whatever event that occurs in nature it can be anything there will be a result. Even down to the tiniest living and non-living things there are events that conditions change. Say if a thought arises we might be compelled to act here�s a sobering example next time you feel hungry what exactly comes to your mind biscuits, ice-cream or vegemite without even knowing we get up go to the kitchen and pile ourselves this is cause and effect.

Back to people having a deformity the cause for that would be something obviously genetic or external environmental conditions this is what Buddhists mean if you come a across it by them saying (Dhamma or Dharma) meaning seeing the way things are or the way of nature.

The five categories of Kamma if you like is just a general way of saying that Kamma is everywhere and all around us (changes or cause and effect are occurring everywhere). If you feeling now�s the time to be unplugged I don�t blame you but I am no Morpheus.

The world is not static and changes don�t occur in steps it is rather a continuum for example youth to old age there is a lot of causes and effects in between the phases that will ultimately result in the last phase.

You also mention something about intentions (I assuming you mean if you do something good and something bad happens or the result changes). Remember there is no distinction between humans and nature we are part of the large drama of reality .The kamma of nature won�t be just limited to itself but will effect other causes meaning and event that occurs can effect other events along the line. Our intentions maybe wholesome but unfortunately some other external causes are if you like heeding progress or changing the way we perform some action.

Before I finish I�ll share a short story with a meaning. The story below was from a book of narratives not sure on the title of the book. My Uncle told me this one and I loved its meaning.

A young monk observing a snail crossing a footpath thinks to himself hmm this is no good he could get stepped on. Prudently the young monk walks over to pick it up too place it elsewhere where it will be safe. An older monk observing this walks up to him and says, �you just affected its kamma�.

The younger monk replies �I�m only trying to place it in a safer spot�.

Older Monk �the snail had its original intention let it continue on its path�.

The younger monk heeding his advice places the snail back where he found it.

To which the older monk then replied, �you did it again�.

In the above narrative the snail is the human being humbly carrying on with his deeds. The young monk represents the external kamma that is beyond our control could be natural could be something else. Never the less whether good or bad comes our way we should always strive to do our best and have wholesome intentions within our heart we should never retaliate in return.

The Sources I mentioned Buddhism in a Nutshell and The Idiots guide to Buddhism are books AhmadJoyia. I have been searching the net itself and the sites seem only interested in selling incenses and mystical objects haven�t found a good site as of yet on the Tripika. Back with more later.

Sanjiv wrote: ................ You also mention something about intentions (I assuming you mean if you do something good and something bad happens or the result changes). Remember there is no distinction between humans and nature we are part of the large drama of reality .The kamma of nature won�t be just limited to itself but will effect other causes meaning and event that occurs can effect other events along the line. Our intentions maybe wholesome but unfortunately some other external causes are if you like heeding progress or changing the way we perform some action.

So I think, you mean the kamma is truely insulant about human (not to consider animals)  intentions and works through their actions only. Isn't it kind of not giving allowance for humanistic honest mistakes? For example if my action is that I take away my office calculator to home for some official work, and after completing the work, don't bring it back to office. In the meantime, if I meet death, then according to kamma I shall face the reaction of stealing the equipment. However, if my intention was not of stealing but through human error of forgetting the thing to return or simply too lazy to take it back, should I face the same Kamma?

Before I finish I�ll share a short story with a meaning. The story below was from a book of narratives not sure on the title of the book. My Uncle told me this one and I loved its meaning.

A young monk observing a snail crossing a footpath thinks to himself hmm this is no good he could get stepped on. Prudently the young monk walks over to pick it up too place it elsewhere where it will be safe. An older monk observing this walks up to him and says, �you just affected its kamma�. The younger monk replies �I�m only trying to place it in a safer spot�. Older Monk �the snail had its original intention let it continue on its path�. The younger monk heeding his advice places the snail back where he found it. To which the older monk then replied, �you did it again�.   In the above narrative the snail is the human being humbly carrying on with his deeds. The young monk represents the external kamma that is beyond our control could be natural could be something else. Never the less whether good or bad comes our way we should always strive to do our best and have wholesome intentions within our heart we should never retaliate in return.

I think this example does not elaborate what I intended to ask for concerning intentions, therefore repeated my question with an example above. However, I do see the act of natural calmities that you regard them as external Kamma. But then I really couldn't understand when you say "we should never retaliate in return". Retailation against what? against nature? This will be absured? Shouldn't we advance our knowledge to understand their orgin and then take measures to save ourselves if they ever occur again?

The Sources I mentioned Buddhism in a Nutshell and The Idiots guide to Buddhism are books AhmadJoyia. I have been searching the net itself and the sites seem only interested in selling incenses and mystical objects haven�t found a good site as of yet on the Tripika. Back with more later.

Oh, I see. Anyhow, I do see some sites which does provide some info about Buddhaism especially if you look at this http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm - http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/index.htm

and see if you recommend for people like me to get benefit out of it.

The external Kamma could be other beings too that intend to harm us. It is more meritorious to refrain from harming others in return.

I suppose this explanation will have to do. If I find another way to explain Kamma I will post it as soon as possible I have run out of ideas to explain it.

Thanks for the website I�ll take a peek.

I found the The Idiots Guide website. They have subjects on just about anything from Astronomy, Finance even Islam for idiots like me. Just type your search and you might be lucky.

http://www.idiotsguides.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,603_1592572723,00.html#" target=_blank onclick="window.open'/nf/Book/CoverImagePopup/0,,1592572723,00.html','1592572723','top=100,left=100,width=425,height=440,scrollbars=auto,resizable=yes';">  

Good books these are very concise.

I�ll put my references down and thanks for the reply regarding the Bibliography and Koran AhmadJoyia. I'll explain beliefs in another posting from various points of view.

• Narada T, . 1982,Buddhism in a Nutshell, The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational foundation (TCBBEF), Taiwan, pg26-pg33
• Ven U. Thittila, .1996,Gems of Buddhist Wisdom, (TCBBEF), Taiwan, pg129-pg135
• Gary Gach, . 2004,The Complete Idiot�s Guide To Understanding Buddhism, Alpha Books, U.S.A, pg55-pg56

http://www.idiotsguides.com/ - http://www.idiotsguides.com/

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020912.html - http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020912.html

It is interesting how we define religion especially in relation to Buddhism and Hinduism to some degree since it is not a �system of faith�. It does not require worship or prayer owing any obedience or allegiance to a higher power or the Buddha himself.

The Buddha (wisdom and knowledge) was not a supernatural being. He did not claim to be under the monopoly of higher spirits or deities as believed by some to achieve Nirvana or Nibbana (cessation to extuinguish). Nibbana is not otherworldly or a transcendental state but it is something that can be achieved in this life rather than weighting for fruition in a supposed rebirth or afterlife.

He achieved Nibbana through his own mental exertion. He is not a saviour as such who goes freeing other beings from their woes. The Buddha discourages reliance on supernatural powers and others since it is a surrender of ones own efforts and responsibilities. He does not claim to have absolute truth but rather encourages devotees to use their own rationale and based on their own analysis think what they see fit. 

Self dependence is emphasized by the Buddha for ones own deliverance and purity of mind depends on oneself. Through his sermons he makes plain the relationship with his followers pointing out the importance of self �reliance and individual striving, the Buddha states in exhorting his disciples to be self-reliant in the Parinibb�na Sutta: �Be ye islands unto yourselves, be ye a refuge unto yourselves, seek not for refuge in others�. Furthermore the Buddha does not elevate his status amongst other known religious teachers or prophets at that time. He tells us anybody may achieve Nibbana if someone makes the necessary exertion.

�The Buddha does not call men wretched sinners but he gladdens them by saying that they are pure in conception�. According to the Buddha the �world is not wicked but is deluded by ignorance". Instead of reserving the exalted state to himself he encourages others to practice a wholesome and compassionate way of life since Buddhahood is within all who aspire to be one. One who aspires to become a Buddha is called a Bodhisattva.

Dear Bro Sanjiv,

I really couldn't understand your views on the karma with regard to intentions or am I missing something here? Secondly, from your description of Gotama buddha's teachings, I really don't understand the significance of Gotama, especially once we know that there were Buddhas before and after him. Thirdly, your reply suggest that you belong to Hinayana (Lesser Vehicle) branch of buddhaism, can you elaborate as what do you mean by Nirvana/Nibbana?

Another mistake I said Nirvana/Nibbana to mean wisdom and knowledge, it should be replaced by Buddha. Nirvana or Nibbana actually means cessation or to extinguish.Yes there were Buddha�s before Siddhartha I don�t know how many but years of seclusion and the complexity of such an undertaking made it difficult to explain such a way of thought. Even I had trouble trying to explain the meaning of achieving Buddhahood when I was in my teens.

The importance of Siddhartha Gautama is quite significant as it was he who was first to be able to describe the best way to end suffering. Now suffering can mean hatred, greed, craving, sadness these are mental sufferings and also we can include physical suffering sickness and old age. Off course we can�t do much about physical suffering but a good state of mind and positive attitude can help to deal with such situations with contentment. The extinguishing of these mental delusions is called Nibbana.

Mahayana until recently being the larger of the two major branches in Buddhism had a significant impact on most Buddhist schools of thought. It exists now primarily in Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan some parts of China and also dotted throughout the Asian subcontinent. Prior to the 11^th century Mahayana had been wide spread as far as Central Asia (Afghanistan, northern parts of Persia, Hindu Kush region and the countries north to Afghanistan). 

According to Mahayana and most Buddhists the extinguishing of such mental delusions leads to the escape of the Samsara that is the escape of the cycle of rebirth. Some Buddhists from Zen practices and Theravada may emphasize reincarnation based on their understanding. Generally speaking if in your undertaking of a wholesome nature (Dhamma or Dharma that which is natural) leads you to believe that reincarnation and God exists that�s fine according to Buddhism since it�s on your own investigation not of others.

Sanjiv wrote: Another mistake I said Nirvana/Nibbana to mean wisdom and knowledge, it should be replaced by Buddha. Nirvana or Nibbana actually means cessation or to extinguish.

Thanks for your correction as it was kind of confusing, otherwise.

Yes there were Buddha�s before Siddhartha I don�t know how many but years of seclusion and the complexity of such an undertaking made it difficult to explain such a way of thought. Even I had trouble trying to explain the meaning of achieving Buddhahood when I was in my teens.

So do you mean, the seclusion and complexity has made it difficult to find the original message of Gotama or what?

The importance of Siddhartha Gautama is quite significant as it was he who was first to be able to describe the best way to end suffering. Now suffering can mean hatred, greed, craving, sadness these are mental sufferings and also we can include physical suffering sickness and old age. Off course we can�t do much about physical suffering but a good state of mind and positive attitude can help to deal with such situations with contentment. The extinguishing of these mental delusions is called Nibbana.

But, I think, you have just implied that the teachings of Gotama are quite difficult to discern due to seclusion and complexity; then from where do you get this "best way" to achieve Nibbana? Secondly, your message implies, as I think, Gotama didn't bring any new doctrine or message to the people as his Buddhahood was not much different than Buddhists before and after him. This leads to other important questions, such as: Since Gotama was basically a Hindu, did he ever denounced basic doctrine of hinduism? or Did he ever rejected the holy books of hinduism, such as Vedas, and other epics? If the answer is 'No', then how do you see yourself separated from hinduism. My this question is, probably, originating from my lack of understanding of the two religions (hinduism and buddhaism) especially once you say that following the scriptures is not obligatory on the followers of these religions in them. Can you elaborate on this comment as well? I mean, without these scriptures, from where does come the guidance? For example, if you don't follow Triptika, how would you assume that you are following the 'best way' of Gotama? Hence to follow Gotama's way i.e. you say the "best way", one has to follow his teachings which are collected in the book form known to us as Tripitika. So, those who follow these traditions of Gotama, are called Buddists. Am I correct? Can you elaborate on it?

Mahayana until recently being the larger of the two major branches in Buddhism had a significant impact on most Buddhist schools of thought. It exists now primarily in Vietnam, Cambodia, Japan some parts of China and also dotted throughout the Asian subcontinent. Prior to the 11th century Mahayana had been wide spread as far as Central Asia (Afghanistan, northern parts of Persia, Hindu Kush region and the countries north to Afghanistan).    According to Mahayana and most Buddhists the extinguishing of such mental delusions leads to the escape of the Samsara that is the escape of the cycle of rebirth. Some Buddhists from Zen practices and Theravada may emphasize reincarnation based on their understanding. Generally speaking if in your undertaking of a wholesome nature (Dhamma or Dharma that which is natural) leads you to believe that reincarnation and God exists that�s fine according to Buddhism since it�s on your own investigation not of others.

I really don't understand in the point of discussing Mahayana once you have not clarified your inclination of believing it? So, if you don't believe in it, then its kind of little use for us in our discussions. Tell me something about Buddhaism in which you also believe to be true. Thanks for your help and patience to my questions.

AhmadJoyia wrote: I really couldn't understand your views on the karma with regard to intentions or am I missing something here?

Buddhism is mainly concerned about Kamma Niy�ma and Kamma Citta Niy�ma since these are the ones that we have control over. Check definitions in my first posting. We must have deliverance to fulfil the intention; some intentions require a greater self-effort than others. Here�s a simple analogy preparation for an exam requires a lot more self-effort than making a cup of tea if we don�t there is no one else that can do it for you apart from yourself.

I think most people would agree what we now think and feel is due to the way we were brought up. In other words whatever thoughts we have now are likely to shape what we are like (the way we think and act) in future. You will find one who speaks gently of others and is kind generally has a history of doing good deeds, being patient this all shapes what he/she is now. Similarly one who speaks foul of another and is disruptive has a history of doing bad deeds, engages in illicit activities etc. This does not mean a bad person will always remain bad. In other words if you truly take the time to recognise your own faults and through deliverance and self effort we attempt to break whatever habit we have you condition the mind for purification of thoughts and compassion.

You gave a example above regarding a office calculator AhmadJoyia. Suppose the calculator was stolen on purpose the results of this action only, in the mind might arise a guilty conscience, we may feel the urge to return it back on this guilt and admit our fault or we might get aroused by this act which can in turn be a precursor or conditioning for future bad deeds a robbery etc. Don�t get confused with Kamma as being an almighty punisher or praiser for things that we do, any external accidents are to do with changes beyond our control. What we have control over is our own minds, back to your example we can either choose to return the calculator and admit our fault or get into the bad habit of stealing. Offcourse if we were to take it by accident then one would naturally assume if you had a high standard of ethics you would return it back.

In the definitions Kamma is cause and effect, which obviously means there will be processes of change. See examples given so far. Even if we were to break down the steps even further to fractions of a second there are processes of change that result in some outcome that�s what I mean by Kamma is a continuum.

I think I exhausted the possibilities of explaining Kamma with regard to human behaviour but of course if I find another way of explaining it to you I�ll post it soon if you like. I�ll respond to your other post soon.

My Dear Bro Sanjiv,

Though I leave it for you to respond to my last comments, but like to comment upon Kamma as what you have defined or explained that its a continuum. However, in practice we don't see this continuum being applied all the time. Those who are evil, they keep on doing their mischiefs, at times without any check and balance or what you call as action / reaction kind of thing. Those who are oppressors, keep on going in their oppressions of others without hesitation. So where is this Kamma? It seems that it is not being applied ubiquitously.

In my example of calculator, I have given the situation where after committing an act, I didn't have much time to react and got died. Hence, all my Kamma ceased to continue and shall now reflect on either on my action or on my intention. It is in this situation that I needed your comments. However, if I am not wrong, you would propose my kamma in reaction to my action and no weightage to my intentions at all. Is this correct view of your definition of Kamma? Kindly be specific to this example, if you can. Thanks.

Sorry for the big delay in my response�s get caught up in uni work as usual. I know it can get a bit frustrating but I�m in third year now so big tasks to accomplish.

I think part of the difficulty in understanding the Buddha�s teaching for me personally for one I was told mystical stories about him and the state of Buddhahood wasn�t really made clear to me. Things like can a Buddha float six inches above ground can he really heal the wounded were questions that perplexed me as a younger person. Utter devotion to the faith without questioning the why of some issues such as reincarnation, God etc also led me to believe these things as true without the analysis. It soon came to my realization that the Buddha encouraged doubt on his own teachings so that any devotee would do his own self-investigation on the teachings, which is why the Tripitaka is not regarded as the only way since it is recognized guidance can come from anyone or anything but remember the devotee should do his own investigation on any claims before diving straight into his/her own way of practice. The Tripitaka itself contains sermons done by the Buddha and was compiled sometime after his death by some 500 or so faithful disciples and laymen. Whether we get guidance from a book or by word of mouth or whatever it doesn�t matter.

It�s is also recognized that the Siddhartha Gautama made the effort to spread the teachings by doing monthly retreats around the Ganges spreading what he had learnt from his earlier teaches and things he found for himself. In ancient Indian customs it was characteristic in those times for noble men once they had completed their family and social duties to investigate a harmonious way of life this quite characteristic pre Aryan cultural influences. I say cultural influences since there were disputes whether the Aryans came by force or peacefully settled in around Northern parts of India around 2500BC to 4000BC, the gathering of recent evidence suggests it was peaceful. Most noblemen were at old age when embarking on such a journey that if at all they had found a way to spiritual harmony they were to weak to spread their findings by foot but rather had students who were willing enough to learn what they had learned come to them. Most sages preferred to teach one student at a time. I am told by our Malaysian Bhante of one Buddha prior to the birth of Siddhartha Gotama strictly speaking Sambuddha I don�t know the specifics of what he taught but he only taught his closest disciples which numbered from memory about five to ten. Siddhartha embarked on his journey at a very early age 29 compared to most other sages around their sixties and seventies. Life expectancy in India in those days for some sages was up to around 80 and past 90 in some cases.

It�s important that the Buddha does not encourage others to denounce other beliefs since it�s highly disrespectful for anyone to do such a thing even if you don't believe in that faith. The Buddha himself dropped most of his beliefs and started anew but he encourages others to analyze for themselves before making any rash decision.

I think to get a fair understanding of the struggle some noblemen went to I see it fit to tell Siddhartha�s story. Of course with his own struggle his teachings are so freely available to analyze and doubt or perhaps believe after his death.

• Peter D. Santina, . 1984,Fundamentals Of Buddhism, (TCBBEF), Taiwan, pg12-pg19
• Gary Gach, . 2004,The Complete Idiot�s Guide to Buddhism, Alpha Books, U.S.A, pg6-pg9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_invasion_theory - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_invasion_theory

My Dear Bro Sanjiv,

Thanks for your long post, yet it didn't clarify my question on intention VS action in case of law of Kamma.

In this post, initially you mentioned that source of guidance doesn't matter from where they come as you said "Whether we get guidance from a book or by word of mouth or whatever it doesn�t matter ", however, later on you said that Gotama made efforts and went in monthly retreats just to spread his teachings (i.e. guidance for others). This is kind of contradictory and need you help to solve the riddle. On the same note, if Tripitika is not considered as the only true source of guidance, then what else could be considered as its replacement for guidance? Of course, one's own effort is necessary, but he does require guidance, without which the religions are meaningless. Isn't it?

Not to denounce others religion, as you mentioned that it was taught by Gotama, doesn't imply that his teachings (Gotama's) were not uniquely true. That is to say, respect for others doesn't imply the others are true also. Therefore, in this case, I really couldn't get your point when you say "The Buddha himself dropped most of his beliefs and started anew but he encourages others to analyze for themselves before making any rash decision." Do you intend to say that he doubted his own beliefs? This is strange indeed. What was "anew" in his beliefs?

In the end, what is your analysis about your beliefs as Gotama said? What have you concluded or are you still in doubts?

We shouldn�t look at Kamma as a object but as a result (something has changed due to some previous condition) here�s a another analogy borrowed straight from the Buddhism in a Nutshell, the seedling becomes the tree the tree becomes the mulch the mulch becomes the fertiliser for new saplings. It�s obvious that the tree is not the mulch it�s just changed form although the tree has ceased to exist the decomposing provides nourishment for other life Kamma continues. The results of each action will proceed onto something new.

Sanjiv wrote: It�s important that the Buddha does not encourage others to denounce other beliefs since it�s highly disrespectful for anyone to do such a thing even if you don't believe in that faith. The Buddha himself dropped most of his beliefs and started anew but he encourages others to analyze for themselves before making any rash decision.

I mean Siddhartha Gautama dropped his earlier beliefs before he embarked on his journey to search for true peacefulness to become Buddha.

Life Story of The Buddha

Just to clear a couple of things here the caste system in India was assigned to people so they had a specific task kings and royals had a high caste obviously being the rulers, Brahmins the highest caste since they advised kings and queens their duties and labourers having a lower caste than the royals this system was in place so everyone knew their responsibilities. Since the story of the Buddha is long I�ll try and break it down.

Siddhartha Gotama was born around 623BC in the foothills of the Himalayas to one off the richest royals of that time King Suddhodana and Queen Mahamaya. Siddhartha�s mum later died in the early stages of his life due to some sort of illness. Apparently to soothsayers at the time they said that Siddhartha would be either a great King or a Saint since at a very young age Siddhartha was highly disciplined he would be able to sit and do meditation for quite some time, he was also deeply found of nature and those who brought him up. This behaviour extremely worried King Suddhodana since it�s said if Siddhartha was to experience the realities of suffering (death, old-age, sickness, physical pain etc) he would take the life of a Saint. Given this advice King Suddhordana built numerous palaces one for each for season summer, monsoon and winter. Any signs of decay and death were removed from the young prince�s sight, if a flower were to wither in the palace gardens it was to be cut and removed any street processions that were held the sick, elderly and poor looking were taken away. To keep the young prince preoccupied the king had him married at age sixteen.

Soon king Suddhordana would hand over power over to Siddhartha so Siddhartha decided to make a few unofficial visits around his kingdom. He took Channa along with him his beloved servant. On his first outing Siddhartha saw a hunched over man with a grey beard walking between the young crowd in the streets he asked Channa what is wrong with him Channa replied �this a man who has reached his old age he uses a staff to help him walk around everyone will end up like this eventually�. The young prince brooded eventually he will be like this. On his second outing to the country side Siddhartha stumbled upon a fellow who was groaning had blisters on his body and frothing through the mouth. Again he queried �Channa what�s is happening to him?� the faithful servant replied �this person has taken ill everyone will takes ill in there lifetime but you needn�t worry since you have a good lifestyle� again this unsettled Siddhartha. On his third outing Siddhartha thought he saw someone who was sleeping being carried at the front of a procession and mourners crying again the prince queried Channa and replied �this is the unfortunate reality of life everyone faces this even I and eventually you will meet this same fate no one can escape�. This third reality sign came as a real shock for him was there no way to stop this, being the ultimate destination of us all meant not only he will die but those nearest to him and all mortals. On his final trip Siddhartha saw a serene fellow wearing simplistic clothing again asking Channa who is that he told the prince �he is a man who is searching for spiritual truth�. Siddhartha touched by his earlier encounters had the feeling; this is it I must aspire to be one of them to find true peace and happiness. Having these facts withheld for so long made this a kind of wake up call to Siddhatha that there were others out there who faced this same dilemma.

King Suddhordana having found out his son�s despair through a party to keep his son close at home. After the feast Siddhartha was kept entertained by some beautiful dancing girls, he paid no interest and soon fell asleep. The girls having also seen this stopped their activity and fell asleep too. When Siddhartha woke up the once beautiful girls were now sprawled along the floor some drooling and others grinding their teeth. So much of this illusionary happiness through material possessions and how easily our senses get carried away now Siddhartha felt time was right to embark on a new journey. Having realised the universality of suffering the palace and its materialistic pleasures no longer had a place in the heart of the compassionate prince. He took with him for the last time Channa he renounced his wealth and his caste and donned the robes of an ascetic and set forth on his journey vowing to return on completion of his journey, it was the last time Channa would see him before he became the Buddha Siddhartha was now 28.

I�ll continue the rest of the story when I finished completing it.

Bro Sanjiv,

Thanks for your effort but I am more interested in knowing about Buddhaism from its authentic original sources like Tripitika etc rather than popular Buddhist folk lure stories. Can you share some of Tripitika's contents?

I see you would like to know what the Tripitaka contains AhmadJoyia. If you want to know what�s in it word for word I can�t help you here. What it does contain is recounts of the Buddha�s sermons by fellow disciples and laymen and as well as how to meditate. The Buddha�s sermons emphasise in particular the four noble truths. They maybe fantasy stuff in there however I am just speculating so don�t take my word for it.

Four Noble Truths:   

�                      Why we suffer

�                      Its recognition

�                      The diagnosis

�                      Its cessation

We note the Buddha�s sermons were highly structured so messages and points were passed on effectively. His sermons basically revolve around the four noble truths. The Tripitaka also contains poems and stories said by the Buddha. However it must be mentioned the Tripitaka is a guide not a revelation that must be strictly followed. Indeed saying this Buddhism is also a guide not an institution that Buddhists seek refuge in hoping they�ll get somewhere. We must first verify that what is said in the Tripitaka is true from our own experiences and introspection before believing what is said. Indeed anything we are told we must verify for ourselves before believing, �we are the better judge if something is true or not�. The life story of the Buddha I think is also included. The second part of the Buddha�s story I include if you like to read it.

Life Story of The Buddha 2

Having abandoned a life of luxury Siddhartha was on the beginning of a six-year struggle. We note Siddhartha abandons old beliefs here and starts afresh. It is said after watching groups of people sacrificing goats and praying near the river in the hope that it will rain Siddhartha thought to himself they do not see the way things are, they have enslaved themselves thinking they�ll be praised by sacrificing these poor animals he abandons ideas of the existence of higher powers realising how easily we abandon our own efforts hoping someone else will achieve it for us. He paid visits to very well known ascetics at the time and learnt word for word what they knew until they no longer were capable of teaching Siddhartha anything more. Still the ascetics didn�t answer the question of why we suffer and how to be free. While most of the transcendental meditation helped to relax the mind it still diverted from the main issue why we suffer. There are other kinds of meditation apart from the one mentioned here that help cultivate discipline, compassion and tolerance which I�ll introduce later.

Along with five other disciples in search of spiritual enlightenment Siddhartha set forth into the forest. Thinking that extreme asceticism would be the way to end suffering Siddhartha and his disciples practiced self mortification (self-torture) thinking the punishing of oneself would reward him with the eradication of suffering. Days on end Siddhartha practised self-torture and kept to his vow until he was reduced to a thin skeletal like corpse. Near death a young lady spotted him under the bow tree seeing his poor physique she fed him milk rice. It was here Siddhartha realised the fruitlessness of self-mortification.

He discovers a way that would become a salient feature of his teaching and spread to other faiths throughout Asia. That is the middle way, which is purely to do with mindset. He had been born into one extreme spoilt by the sensuous pleasures of the palace to living life of the other, extreme discomfort. In other words the former creates a false sense of wellbeing and the latter dissolves ones intellect. He realises to have a healthy body we need a healthy mind and without a healthy mind there can be no healthy body. He also realises that anything thought of as in terms of rewards whatever we do we will always lead to disappointment since thinking in terms of rewards and punishment always leads to self therefore no self no separation between self and the external environment. The five other disciples disappointed seeing Siddhartha resume eating abandoned him and left to continue on their journey without Siddhartha explaining to them what he had found for himself.

Left by himself Siddhartha went it alone. Sitting under the bow tree Siddhartha realised that unless we are non-attached to materialistic things we will never be at peace with oneself. People may think this is a selfish way of thought but its true the way we think and act is characteristic how we treat others. Same goes with the concept with I and mine if we think in this manner as mentioned we will always be led to disappointment as well since it leads to self so no external self. Meditating under the bow tree Siddhartha makes further headway. He now understands that everyone is destined to meet death, everything is destined to change and the impermanence of life and objects he fully understood. In other words everything is not permanent they are subject to change but once we no longer grasp onto objects thoughts etc we will no longer feel that craving or desire to want that object or feeling.

After further meditation Siddhartha finally awoke to himself became knowledgeable and wise i.e. state of Buddha he was at one with that which is natural. After his six year journey he was finally able to go back and teach what he knew. He however realised �something so simple might not be for everyone� but surely many people would benefit from his teachings. He first went back to the five disciples who abandoned him earlier and showed what he found; delighted they also took on his teaching after introspection. He continued back to his kingdom to which he dedicated his life in the spreading of the Dhamma (that which is natural or good). Close to his death his now 500 strong gathering was wandering how they would continue without him. The Buddha simply replied lying on his back �consider the teachings as your teacher those who practice peace, tolerance and compassion and are willing to practice a wholesome way of life honour me the best". The Buddha does not want recognition or ask for praise for his teachings but encourages everyone to have high morals as their beliefs, compassion and encourages practitioners to give alms and willingly listen to the doctrine of others. After 45 years of spreading his teachings like all life and objects and their impermanent nature he finally passed away. His famous quote before his passing was �May all beings be well and happy, whatever merits we have done may they be shared by all�. He left a lasting legacy to the ethics and morals of India and the many nations that came across his teachings.

I seem to have struck some luck. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations Fifth Edition has some Tripitaka material. If you ever come across this book look under Pali Tripitaka they have a fair few quotes.

Just a brief history on the Tripitaka the Pali Canon constituted the original texts of what would soon be known as the Tripitaka. Pali itself is another ancient Indian style of dialect, which the texts used. To be precise most Tripitaka material were written down in mostly Pali. The Tripitaka or Tipitaka means three baskets (ti �three�, taka �baskets�). The three baskets or sections are Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka.

1Vinya Pitaka

Is a guide to show mainly monks or �bhikkus� how to conduct themselves properly. The origins of the guidance or rules are also provided. Detailed solutions on how to provide spiritual harmony to all fellow beings as explained by the Buddha are provided in this section.

2Sutta Pitaka

The Buddha�s sermons and also texts and accounts �suttas� provided by disciples constitute this section.

3Abhidhamma Pitaka

Basically a summary of the Sutta Pitaka so ideas are more neatly presented for generally anyone who comes across the teachings so they can be more thoroughly tested and investigated.

Quotaions From Pali Tripitaka

• Is it fitting to consider what is impermanent, painful, and subject to change as, �This is mine, this am I, this is myself�? Vinaya, Mah�v (Book of Discipline) I,6
• 1) Refraining from taking life. 2) Refraining from taking what is not given. 3) Refraining from incontinence. 4) Refraining from falsehood. 5) Refraining from taking intoxicants, drugs which lowers mental capacity. The Five Precepts Vinaya, Mah�v (Book of Discipline) I,56
• The Noble Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of suffering is this: It is simply the Noble Eightfold Path, namely right view; right thought; right speech; right action; right livelihood; right effort; right mindfulness; right concentration. (First Sermon of the Buddha) Samyutta-nik�ya (Kindred Sayings) pt. 56, p.II
• What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday, and our present thoughts build our life of tomorrow: our life is the creation of our mind. Dhammapada v. I

There are more quotations which I will post on this thread if you like AhmadJoyia. Hope this helps.

Great Job, my bro Sanjiv, this is what I was looking for. Now, since you are with the correct source, kindly look for the section which provides the information concerning multiple births. Can you find it being explicitly stated by Gotama Buddha? 

Secondly, according to your last but one post where you mentioned a quotation from Gotama Buddha "�consider the teachings as your teacher those who practice peace, tolerance and compassion and are willing to practice a wholesome way of life honour me the best". ", it is now realized how important it is to read from some authentic source that provides the actual sayings of Gotama Buddha and not just any other Buddha. Do you agree with me?

Here is an interesting quote by Gotama Buddha, but really don't understand as who are devas in this quote? Can you help providing some details on this.

"224:

By telling the truth;
by not growing angry;
by giving, when asked,
no matter how little you have:
by these three things
you enter the presence of devas.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Great Job, my bro Sanjiv, this is what I was looking for. Now, since you are with the correct source, kindly look for the section which provides the information concerning multiple births. Can you find it being explicitly stated by Gotama Buddha?

Thanks for the link AhmadJoyia.

Yeah as soon as I saw the Jatarka link (nothing in their yet) you will see plenty of reincarnation stories of all of Siddhartha�s previous lives supposably ( I have attached a link below if you like to see Jataka stories). They are other mentions of reincarnation dotted hear and there. I can�t find any evidence that Siddhartha suggested this theory especially once we know that the first texts was compiled at least 100 years after the death of Siddhartha, which by then there were approximately 500 different schools of thought. Some believed that Siddhartha taught celestial beings could be reached through attainment of Nibbana, most believed in rebirth and others believed it was ludicrous to put beliefs in such things as there was no way of testing these claims just another diversion that can ensnare a practitioner and lead them to fantasies without seeing the true nature of things. This led to a significant split, as you already know Mahayana and Theravada. Similar splits are again observed in the Theravada mainstream and Mahayana. The Pali Canon itself wasn�t even compiled until 100 to 50 BC some sites say 80BC in Sri-Lanka, which by then ideas and thoughts were added based on the bhikkus understanding. The Tripitaka is not the same among all denominations; they are variances between each school of thought. Keep in mind the Tripitika with all its contents takes up an entire bookshelf. Some interesting sites on what the Buddha was like. 

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=00000000010,00000001258,0,0,1,0 - http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=00000000010,00000 001258,0,0,1,0

http://www.harunyahya.com/buddhism03.php - http://www.harunyahya.com/buddhism03.php

I humbly disagree with some other contents mentioned in this Islamic site about Buddhism but agree with what is said on the Pali Canon on this page.

AhmadJoyia wrote: Here is an interesting quote by Gotama Buddha, but really don't understand as who are devas in this quote? Can you help providing some details on this.

Devas means celestial beings or Gods. Another Tripitaka site listed below it may show some texts that might have been unavailable in the one you mentioned go to the first link on that webpage Introduction toThe Buddhist Bible.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9449/perspec.htm - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9449/perspec.htm

http://watthai.net/talon/jataka/jataka.htm - http://watthai.net/talon/jataka/jataka.htm

A bit about Jataka stories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jataka - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jataka

beloved wrote: Your posts are beautiful brother Sanjiv. They are quite informative. Such posts help people like me who want to learn about different religions.

Thanks mate although I can be irritably slow in replying to posts. If you like there is a Islam and Hinduism thread if you like to post some articles on Hinduism below Beloved as there are a number of people who want to know what Hinduism is about. Hope to see you around soon.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=249&PN=3 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=249& PN=3

beloved wrote: How did you know that I am a Hindu?

I have reached enlightment brother beloved well I wish at least. You left your trail in another posting brother recognize this

Here comes Sherlock Holmes

But mark my words, "atleast for the sake of census."

I am still learning religion Sanjiv.  I want to learn it soon.

I thought you were a Buddhist.  I envy you for you know a lot about Buddhism.

Sanjiv wrote:   Thanks for the link AhmadJoyia. Yeah as soon as I saw the Jatarka link (nothing in their yet) you will see plenty of reincarnation stories of all of Siddhartha�s previous lives supposably ( I have attached a link below if you like to see Jataka stories). They are other mentions of reincarnation dotted hear and there. I can�t find any evidence that Siddhartha suggested this theory especially once we know that the first texts was compiled at least 100 years after the death of Siddhartha, which by then there were approximately 500 different schools of thought.

So, you don't believe in the rebirth concept as commonly associated with any of the Pantheistic religions like Buddhaism. Hmm!! This is really strange to me. Then what do you think about life after death?

Some believed that Siddhartha taught celestial beings could be reached through attainment of Nibbana, most believed in rebirth and others believed it was ludicrous to put beliefs in such things as there was no way of testing these claims just another diversion that can ensnare a practitioner and lead them to fantasies without seeing the true nature of things. This led to a significant split, as you already know Mahayana and Theravada. Similar splits are again observed in the Theravada mainstream and Mahayana. The Pali Canon itself wasn�t even compiled until 100 to 50 BC some sites say 80BC in Sri-Lanka, which by then ideas and thoughts were added based on the bhikkus understanding. The Tripitaka is not the same among all denominations; they are variances between each school of thought. Keep in mind the Tripitika with all its contents takes up an entire bookshelf. Some interesting sites on what the Buddha was like.

So you mean there is no authentic book which provides accurate sayings of Gotama Buddha? So almost every one in Buddhaism is just believing in their own cultural-moral stories and associated them as from Gotama Buddha?

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=00000000010,00000001258,0,0,1,0 - http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=00000000010,00000 001258,0,0,1,0   http://www.harunyahya.com/buddhism03.php - http://www.harunyahya.com/buddhism03.php I humbly disagree with some other contents mentioned in this Islamic site about Buddhism but agree with what is said on the Pali Canon on this page.

It is for this reason that I have not quoted nor presented anything from the so-called "biased" websites.

Devas means celestial beings or Gods.

What is this concept of "Gods" or "celestial beings" according to your beliefs?

What is there relevent status as compared with Gotama Buddha?

Another Tripitaka site listed below it may show some texts that might have been unavailable in the one you mentioned go to the first link on that webpage Introduction toThe Buddhist Bible.   http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9449/perspec.htm - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9449/perspec.htm http://watthai.net/talon/jataka/jataka.htm - http://watthai.net/talon/jataka/jataka.htm   A bit about Jataka stories http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jataka - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jataka