Once maybe 30 years ago there was punishment for those things but the government realized that people have to be accountable to themselves in these areas and it is not for governement or individuals to assume they know or understand why someone acted as they did.

As the way I see it if a person has not been taught how to establish and keep healthy boundaries, have good communications skills and excellent sexual health practices information and guidelines then there are a lot of people also who are lonelie and desperate because of various reasons.

Going on a witch hunt to find people who have relations out side of marriage or while in a marriage is futile except in offering courses and workshops in educating them in how to establish and maintain personal bountries and how to respect those of others, courses dealing with issues like how to coipe with lonlieness and greif and loss.  Also we must offer courses in anger management and how to make friends.

In short people biologically are programed to have sexual relations and they need these sexual relations to be healthy and happy.

The problem is that sometimes people enter into relationships or marriage for the wrong reasons and they forget to continue learning how to please their partner or they demand too much and either they or their partner go looking elsewhere for love and caring not to mention passion.

So the key here is to work on ones self and learn skills and good behaviors that will attract the right one and also help us maintain our calm when we feel very sexually frustrated or loniley.

I think if two people choose to have sexual relations this is before one another and Allah and that they have to answer to him no one else.

Also if two people treat one another with respect and dignity and care about one another then there is no harm except if they create an unwanted child in their haste or passion.

I am not promoting people take up having numerous affairs I am only saying that when you choose to be with someone this is before you and Allah and of course their parents if they are under age.

I believe that marriage is a bond that can either be a blessing or a curse dependss as I mentioned on how caring and loving the couple is to one another.

I believe that marriage takes commitment and work and should not be entered into lightly.

Marriage means that our learning does not stop if anything it is increased two fold and then some in learning all we have to learn about our partner and how to have a happy home and please them.

One thing that happens sometimes to couples is that one or both partners is looking over their shoulders trying to see what they missed in terms of a more beautiful woman or a more handsome man instead of focusing on their relationships.

That is why occassional marriage counseling workshops on relationship therapy and sexual techniques sessions might help.

In the end flogging or stoning anyone for having relations out side of marriage or evenb when married serves no healthy purpose.

True Justice is Education, Training, Counseling and Consultation with Prayer and Living Prayers (ie Guiding someone to a workshop on sexual information or anger management) are by far a more productive and therapudic for the whole family that continuing to abuse peoples human rights.

Flogging and stoning people might have been an answer a thousnad years ago but it is not an healthy solution or answer to a intellegent and caring society that has dignity and integrity.

Massallah

May Allah Guiide you well!

Anne Marie Elderkin-Habibi 

ahh, Anne Marie,

Your very unIslamic views shine loud and clear in the above post.

Peace, ummziba.

I would not say they are un Islamic at all for it says very clearly in the Quran and Hadith Allah is the most merciful and there fore we should strive to be merciful as well!

Being merciful means we give people the tools they need to be good law abiding upstanding people and make good and excellent choices with the freedoms Allah has given us.

It is not unIslam to say that it is natural for people to need sexual relations, healthy relationships or to respect the one you choose to have relations with.

Sometime it does happen that a man or a woman becuase of biology need to have sexual relations and marriage to anyone is not always the answer so I think that there are of course things that can be done to deal with the sexual frustration and lonlieness but some times the need is too great a burden and then we need someone.

So if you have not met the person you want to marry then if you have a girl frind or a boy friend or companion then maybe it is okay to have relations.

I am of course hypothosizing.

I do not think a piece of paper means someone is going to be a good loving partner.

Though I think a ceramony celebrating the union of a couple is benifital but not always a requirement for a happy marriage or commitment.

Education is true justice violence is never a solution....

Anne Marie,

Sexual relations of any kind outside of legal marriage are absolutely forbidden by Allah.  You are not putting forward Islamic ideas.  You are using Islam to try to fool weak minded people into following your twisted logic.

Community: I appologize for this getting so far off your original post, but I refuse to let Anne Marie continue to post her thoughts and ideas as being those of Muslims.

Peace, ummziba.

Assalamu alaikum Community,

I think Anne Marie is the perfect example of why people in the west do not wish to follow the Qur'an.  If they did they would not be able to have free sexual relations, as she espouses in her posts!

As well, people feel they should be able to do whatever they wish without consequence.  Thinking about Allah reminds them that there may be consequences for their behavior and they would rather not think about that.  Let's face it, an average western person would have to change their lifestyle almost completely in order to follow Islam - most don't want to do that.

As long as people deny Allah and deny the Afterlife, they can fool themselves into thinking it is alright to do whatever they please.

I think DavidC. is also correct in saying that people do not know the Qur'an and therefore are scared.  They see the very slanted media stories of Islam and Muslims and get all the wrong ideas.

Just reading a translation of the meaning of the Qur'an would not necessarily remedy this situation, for, without good tafsir, the meaning can sometimes be tricky to comprehend.

Peace, ummziba.

Salam to all,

Here are some clear and unambigious verses regarding the discussion at hand.

It behoves not a believing man and believing woman that they should have any choice in their affairs when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely has strayed off a manifest straying. (33:36)

O you who believe! Do not take presidence before Allah and His Messenger [in matters of the shari'ah] and fear Allah; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (49:1)

O you who believe! Obey Allah, obey the Messenger and those who are in authority among you (i.e., the Imams). (4:59)

We have not sent a Messenger but to be obeyed. (4:64)

and many more....

It is not up to us to decide whether or not a clear order from the Quran, the Prophet, or "those who are in authority from among you" (the Shia believe this refers to the 12 Imams, The Sunnis believe this means the Caliph), or to decide if the Fiqh ruling is consistent with "modern times". Islam is a religion for all times, and all places. Islam does not adapt itself to society, society adapts itself to Islam.

Regarding Adultry,

I'm sure the adulterers and fornicators would be overjoyed if Islam did not perscribe any punishment for these crimes. Unfortunately for them, however, this is not the case.

"The woman and the man who fornicate scourge each of them a hundred whips; and in the matter of God s religion, let no tenderness for them seize you if you believe in God and the Last Day; and let a party of the believers witness their punishment. "(24:2)

It is well know and established that the punishment for adultery was stoning to death. This is base on Quran, Hadith and the practices of the first Four Caliphs.

As for your statements regarding Fiqh, Ijtihad, etc. you are free to believe what you like and Allah hu Alim (God is the judge). I would just request that you do not claim that your beliefs are based on Islam, as the major schools of thought (Shia, Sunni, Sufi, etc.) do not agree with you, or does the Quran or the vast majority of Muslims.

If you want to create your own religion, just be honest with people. Others will either follow you, or they will not.

I never said my ideas or opinions were agreed upon by other Muslims I said these are my opinions.

As I said I am not condoning sexual behavior outside of marriage I said it happens and therefor people need ground rules if it does happen because right now 5 Billion women and children are being treated like sexual toys and they are vulnerable to men who do not understand how to cope with their lonlieness or sexual frustrations or appetite.

So I am saying that to those men if they want relations seek them of course first from a marriage partner first and if that is not possible then be respectful and not mistreat the woman you choose and what ever you do do not solicite sex from children!  I am saying stop molestesting children and women and useing them as dispossable souls and start treating them and yourself with dignity and respect.

I am saying some men do not believe in marriage and they need some guidlines.

It is very Islamic to be merciful and provide people with the tools and skills at coping with the reality of their lives with things like how to cope with dsexual frustration or end a relationship or create a new one.

People need training and guidance and it is not enough just to say do not do it, you have to show them how to accomplish this task with courage, faith and dignity.

Extreeme sexual frustration is the partial cause of rapes, incest and a number of family violence issues.

I believe I make it clear these are my beliefs and that Islam in some form does support it.

Then I ask you if you are so wise why does a man who has a wife beat his wife because he is attracted to another woman?

What would you tell him, stop???????????????

Then what let him start molesting his own shildren because his needs are not met?

It happens.

Education and Training are very Islamic.

Here are the topics of this thread, I would suggest we get back on track:

Community wrote: The question i wish to ask you readers is this:  looking through the smoke screen of bad translations of the koran and those who pretain to be muslims and do terrible acts. Does the mjority of the people in the US and europe dislike what Allah has sent down(the koran), Secondly how much of the koranic teachings are applied by the west? I think these are very important questions for a muslim and a non muslim because it shows where each of us stands, we love what Allah has sent down. Also, why is there no legal punishment for adultery or fornication in the west?  All opinions welcome and appreciated,

Peace, ummziba.

Child sexual molestation happens when men are left uneducated that in the act of denying self pleasure one can increase ones sexual desire to a point that is dangerous as at that time anyone can appear appealing including children and people of the opposite sex.

So therefore people need to understand what they can do to alleviate the total catastrophy of falling victim to ones emotionial and physical needs.

That is why freedom to access sexual health information and practices is important vital and key.

To protect women and children from men with appetites out of control.

This phenomina happens in all cultures and religions.

This phenomina can happen to women too.

So given this it is very Islamic I believe to inform people of courses, counseling or places to consult openly on thier issues so they can find solutions that keep them lawabiding and respectful.

The problem is that some people have arcaic ideas about sexual health and sexual practices.

So again marriage is probably the wisest answer but sometimes people are less able to cope with these frustrations because of ignorance or misunderstanding.

I am not saying that it is okay to have sex when ever you want just be sure to respect and care about the person you choose to partner with.

Lets face it it happens all the time why not just say do it if you must but be respectful of the one you choose.

This is not the topic, Anne Marie.... .  Please read the forum guidelines.

Peace, ummziba.

Dear Anne Marie,

I don't usually respond to your posts, however, I will make an exception. Why? Because you have made a somewhat clear and cohesive argument.

You claim to be a Muslim (if not, let me know). If you are a Muslim, then it is obligatory on you to turn to the Quran, the Prophet, his traditions and the leaders appointed by Allah for our guidance. There is a clear and established process for doing this. There is no need for you to re-invent (or "renew") Islam to suit your needs, the answers you seek are already there.

If you are not convinced that Islam is from Allah (s.w.a.), or the the Prophet Muhammad (a.s.) is the divine messenger of Allah (s.w.a.), then this is a different matter. However, if you are convinced of this, then where are you going when you put these things aside?

We, as human beings, cannot control either the beliefs or actions of others, only ourselves. There are many people (both Muslim and Non-Muslim) who are abusive, sexually frustrated, cruel, etc. Some of these people try to use religion to justify their behavior, and some don't. All we can do is encourage the good, forbid the evil and protect ourselves. The rest is up to Allah (s.w.a.)

Not the topic, not the topic, not the topic, not the topic...

We, as human beings, cannot control either the beliefs or actions of others, only ourselves. There are many people (both Muslim and Non-Muslim) who are abusive, sexually frustrated, cruel, etc. Some of these people try to use religion to justify their behavior, and some don't. All we can do is encourage the good, forbid the evil and protect ourselves. The rest is up to Allah (s.w.a.)

Re the above....

Good points, I am not trying to reinvent Islam I am taking what I know of Islam and what I have learned in my life and put the two together and this forms my Islam.

You see if you ask 10 Billion people they will tell you at first question that Islam means a number of different things.

However if you define Islam the way I have in (The Renewal Of Islam) thread then they will agree and hense 10 Billion Muslims who agree that 1. Education and Training, 2. Prayer and living Prayers, 3. giving in charity and seeking it when in need5. Haj to self , family, friends ., community and world are the first levels of Haj and then the next is to a place of spiritual significance.  They will agree that these are keys in submitting to the will of Allah (The State of Islam) therefore as I said 10 Billion Muslims each witha fredom to choose their path to Allah.

I know my beliefs sound different or unuassual but careful study will find their support in Islam.

I express my beliefs and try not to force them on anyone.

As I see it Islam is a recipe and in living our lives we cannot help but add to it.

I appreciate your patience.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Islam is what has been taught in the Quran and the Sunnah. Anyone who advocates anything else under the banner of Islam should be read with extreem caution.

Recently we met a muslim, who was too vocal about how people should be loving eachother and upholding humanity above their needs and desires, and ended up telling in the same breath that he is not careful to guard his daily prayers. Next he mentioned the condoning of riba, on methods of loans from banks .... the bottom line is we can "discuss matters" with anyone, however, what we can take for our souls, is not a light issue.

After the matter of this soul and its future, is what it will reap in the hereafter.

As to the question of punishment in Islam on adultery .... I read a very good article posted by sister Umsami in women's section under a thread on rape. I hope some of you have gone thru it. http://www.karamah.org/articles_quraishi.htm - http://www.karamah.org/articles_quraishi.htm

Islamic society is a society that should base its principles on the teachings of Quran and sunnah. The admonitions and prohibitions in the Quran are laid out for all times and not for just a certain period. There is wisdom in the teaching which outweighs all other wisdom of the earth put together. Successful are they who follow its guidance with patience, understanding, love, and devotion.  Success is counted as the reward of that which is pleasing and acceptable to allah and not something that we may have conceived in our intellects, even if stands up to oppose the guiding principles of the Ultimate Book of Guidance.

I dont think the west adheres to the islamic prinicples with similar devotion as the traditional islamic societies, but curruption is all over the world. It would be hard to point a fingure at just one and not the other.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Salam alakum,

Thank you Nausheen for your wonderful post. Ahsan, you are speaking the truth. I also went through the link your provided, and it is a very interesting and though-provoking discussion. May Allah (s.w.a.) guide us all the the Sirat Al-Mustiqeem.

I often debate with myself (before posting) whether sharing my comments will benefit either the group or the person that I am responding to. I thank Allah that he has humbled me by demonstrating that I have no power in my words (except as Allah (s.w.a.) permits), and that "Verily, Verily" there is none who gives Hidiayah (guidance) except Allah and his chosen messengers and Wali's.

Salam,

Yup. I think that's the 2nd time someone has sent that article to these boards. More people need to read it, I feel.

Kim...

Salaam All,

First off Fuhad I think its unfair to first say that do "all people in the Us and Europe" first and foremost there are people in the U.S and Europe that hates Islam but there are those who see Islam as another path to God and there are those who see Islam as a light of God. There are various groups of people in the world. We Muslims must be careful in linking the ignorant ones with those who have sincerity. Use David C as an example truly he has an open mind and is those who believe Islam is a path to God. Knowledge is truly a cure for the disease of ignorance and I think the hatred of Islam comes from the ignorance of it.

So therefore people need to understand what they can do to alleviate the total catastrophy of falling victim to ones emotionial and physical needs.

That is why freedom to access sexual health information and practices is important vital and key.

To protect women and children from men with appetites out of control.

A note of caution to we muslims who live in the West. Do not adopt non Islamic social structures wholesale without considering the source. If we merely need access to sexual and health information to solve the problems of frustration, rape, child molestation, sexual battery, etc. then these problems should have been solved in the U.S., Canada, and Europe 30 years ago. We have had 30 years to have complete and total access to any sort of information about these subjects that we cared to digest. Then why is it that we have much greater  instances of all these crimes in U.S., Canda, and Europe than anywhere else in the world? These crime statistics are readily available online ( I will provide sources if anyone is interested).

The religion of Islam has made the marriage contract so easy that any believing man and woman can accomplish this in under 5 minutes, with no money or resources. Unfortunately some cultures have placed many artificial restrictions on marriage that have nothing to do with Islam. This is the source of many problems in countries with large muslim populations. If marriage was practiced in accordance with the teachings of our Prophet(p.b.u.h) and not in accordance with cultural or western dogma, this would solve the problems we are discussing above. The solutions are there, they only need to be implemented.

We as muslims need to be cautious and protect our beliefs and traditions. There is an active campaign of disinformation about Islam that is picking up steam. This is being lead by the enemy of Islam and muslims, US President George Bush, please read the following...

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050425/25roots.htm - http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050425/25roots.ht m

Abu Hadi wrote: If we merely need access to sexual and health information to solve the problems of frustration, rape, child molestation, sexual battery, etc. then these problems should have been solved in the U.S., Canada, and Europe 30 years ago. We have had 30 years to have complete and total access to any sort of information about these subjects that we cared to digest. Then why is it that we have much greater  instances of all these crimes in U.S., Canda, and Europe than anywhere else in the world?

More crime, or just better reporting? The west appears to have more crimes like this because they get _reported_. There are statistics and crimes charged and victims are encouraged to speak out.

In other countries, victims are NOT encouraged to speak out. In fact, they are punished if they DO. Do you think these are the countries that will keep accurate statistics on their crimes? Highly, highly doubtful. And how can these countries keep stats about crimes that are never reported?

Kim... 

I agree with that such countries would not keep accurate statistics about these sort of crimes, but don't you believe that these crimes are often connected to alcohol abuse?

Only sometimes. We aren't ALL massive drinkers. And often people who DO drink a lot are more likely just to pass out and go to sleep instead of beating someone up.

Yes - there are crimes associated with alcohol. Always have been , always will be. There are also crimes associated with cars, sex,  drugs, religion, power, politicians, spouses, weird family members, money, business, democracy, despotism, communism, etc, etc. Should we ban them as well?

Crime happens everywhere and all the time. Crime happens in ways that you can't even begin to imagine. What can we do? Almost nothing helps.

Kim...

Salams to all,

I forgot to mention Australia. I should append this statement. "these problems should have been solved in the U.S., Canada, Australia and Europe 30 years ago" . I live in the US and I have visited Canada and Europe many times. I hope kim wasn't offended by this. I think Australia is a beautiful country from what I have seen of tv,  and  I hope to visit someday.

Back to the subject. It is a well know fact that even in the above countries, approximately 4 out of 5 rapes and instances of child molestation go unreported. They don't report these for mostly the same reasons that they are not reported other places (i.e. they are ashamed, they know the attacker and don't want to get them 'in trouble', etc). So these are not even reported on crime statistics. There are also many of these crimes that go unreported in other places. I am not making a statistical argument. I wish we had accurate data from muslim countries on these types of crimes, but unfortunately we don't. As stated above, data in Western countries is not all that accurate either.

Considering the above, I still stand by my original premise. Information and educational programs are not enough to solve the problems of rape, child abuse, and violence toward women. If this were enough, these problems would have been solved in the Western countries, and they obviously are not solved, in the West or anywhere else.

These problems fit into the context of the general problem of Oppression (Thulm, as it is mentioned in the Holy Quran). The Thalimin ( oppressors) are those who violate the delicate balance of humanity by taking by force what does not belong to them. By doing this, they harm other people, themselves, and society. There are obviously degrees of Thulm and one can oppress oneself(anorexia, suicide, etc) , another person(rape, child molestation, murder, robbery), or society as a whole (unjust wars, crimes against humanity).

The root of Thulm is Kufr (disbelief in Islam, ungratefulness of Allah(s.w.a)). You must first commit Kufr before you can be a Thalimin. If you believe in Allah(s.w.a) and follow the examples set by our Prophet(p.b.u.h) and the Ahl Al Bayt(p.b.u.t), you will not commit Kufr and thus will never be a Thalimin. By following the example, I mean attempting , with sincere intention(niyyat), to emulate both the spirit and form of their actions.   It is only when we take ourselves outside of this wonderful system and begin following our own desires that we put ourselves, our families, and society in danger.

Unfortunately there are many people who keep up the outward rituals of Islam, but their hearts are full of Kufr. These people are refered to as the Munafiquin (the hypocrites). They exist in every place and have existed in every period of Islamic history, even during the time of our Holy Messenger(p.b.u.h).

Kufr is the greatest enemy of humanity. No muslim is safe from this and it is a battle we must fight during every moment of our life.

"And have they never travelled in the earth and beheld what was the fate of their forbearers. Far mightier were they; they tilled the land and built more on it than they have built. Their Messengers came to them with Clear Signs. Allah did not wrong them, but they wronged themselves. Evil was the end of the evil-doers, because they had denied the revelations of Allah and scoffed at them."

(Quran, 30:9,10)

Salam to all,

Kim wrote:

"More crime, or just better reporting? The west appears to have more crimes like this because they get _reported_. There are statistics and crimes charged and victims are encouraged to speak out.

In other countries, victims are NOT encouraged to speak out. In fact, they are punished if they DO. Do you think these are the countries that will keep accurate statistics on their crimes? Highly, highly doubtful. And how can these countries keep stats about crimes that are never reported? "

I have studied these issues academically (B.S. in Sociology from U.C. Riverside, with a concentration in statistical methodology), and there is no scientific evidence that I have seen that establishes your assertion that " The west appears to have more crimes because crimes like this get reported more often." It is however, well known that these crimes are TALKED ABOUT more often in the popular culture/media and that there are thousands of groups that ENCOURAGE women to report these crimes. However, there is no evidence I have seen (and I have looked) using a rigorous academic methodology that the % or reporting (number of reports/number of occurances) is any higher in the West than anywhere else. As a result, one must assume a constant % of repots, which would mean that the TOTAL NUMBER of incidents has increased. There is more evidence for this (based on aggregated data, sample data and case studies).

There is evidence that accurate records of sex crimes are not kept in non-Western countries, such as the Middle East. There are two possible explanations for this 1.) There is a deliberate, systematic attempt to keep this information from becoming public, despite the existance of incrimnating data or 2.) No data has been collected(systematically), because the occurance of these events is not statistically significant enought to warrant a "full-scale" study (in the face of limited government resources).

I have traveled many times to the Middle East. It is not as if these issues are not discussed, or that they do not occur. However, you find that among Muslims, it is a very rare occurance. There are many reasons for this, however, based on my personal experience I would favor the 2nd explanation for the lack of data. This is not scientific. This does not mean that the 1st explanation if incorrect, however, there is no data to support either one.

Salam,

RE: ALCOHOL AND CRIME

Not everyone who drinks is a criminal (by western definitions), however, the plurality of crimes commited are related to alcohol abuse.

- Probation officers reported that in 70% of their cases, the last criminal offence commited by the payrolee was directly related to alcohol.

- 45% of the career criminal population have a significant problem with alcohol (i.e, they are addicted to alcohol)

- 44% of all instances of domestic violence involve alcohol

Alcohol use is associate with

- 60-70% of homocides

- 70% of stabbings

- 70% of beatings

- 50% of fights

19% of ALL violent incidents took place in or around bars.

Salam

SOURCE: (for previous post, Sorry!)

http://www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/files/20030905_095659_Alcohol%20and%20Crime%20Statistics.pdf - http://www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/files/20030905_095659_Alcoh ol%20and%20Crime%20Statistics.pdf

THESE STATISTICS ARE FOR THE U.K., HOWEVER, THE U.S. SITUATION IS EQUIVELENT

So, they all misinterpret the Koran?

And, you are the only one now left in the world with the right divine translation? Specially for justifying invasions and occupations.

I am still waiting for an ayat that asks us to lie down and lick the criminal enemy's boots - or to join his army and kill our own brethern.

I am an Afghan. I have 2.2 million followers, 28 schools with Dar ul Shafaqaats (Affection Centres) and 500 acres University being commissioned this October (at Khaliqabad, Pakistan). We hang people who desecrate the Koran in any manner - of course only and by the verdict of a Jirga and after a proper trial.

Have you evaporated Community? Or, are you still waiting for further instruction form the Pentagon's Disinformation through the Koran Ayats Bureau?

Don't you have the courage to own up or take responsibilty of your own postings. Who has appointed you as the Sole Franchise Holder on the Koran and its translations?

Sorry, not good excuse. There is no linkage between any of these strings. Each is a separate section.

I do not see why each is a seperate section when it comes down to talking to you, with all due respect, you have used nearly every forum section i posted on as a basis to attack me on one actually 2 posts about that i respect the muslim who wishes the best even in the worst situations. However, because you are a leader with such grand following and prestige, i will comply to you request of what i interpret through you words as meaning an ayat that justifies my view point of respecting the muslim in the US military, but after this i expect you to reply my post under current events which i already requested you to answer, I hope i can expect a certain cautiousness, deep reflection and prudence in answering it, especially from a leader, and i do not think i need to remind you that this intails great responsibilty. Here is the ayah which i see a muslim following with the right intentions, even in the US military, Chapter The women, annisaa 4:85-who mediates between people with good shall be the gainer by it, and whomever mediate with evil between men, it shall be for him. and a burden from it, and Allah was over everything "powerful?" further in this same chapter it says this

4:92 Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.

Now if we are to see every war as unjust when it comes down to believers being in that land, then how is this possible? a believer belonging to a people with whom you have war?

4:93 If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

Ofcourse a muslim in the US army will avoid killing another muslim intentionally. And a true mu'min will not put inocent lives at stake for some nationalistic ideas, this war is not about faith, and a mu'min will certainly not kill them just because they want to practice their right of casting their vote, or joining the police force or army. Or are you going to tell me that islam forbids voting or joining the army or police force? So was it a good cause to rid Saddam and his system and people from power? does the koran tell us to just look at the injustice and be a witness to it? no not only but Allah asks us yet again in the chapter, and hear again the name of the chapter Annisaa(the women)

4:75 And what is it with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! take us away from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

Allah asks us what it is with us that we do not fight in His cause and the cause of those opressed men and women and childeren. We muslims should be there in Iraq and fight those who see freedom of choice as an enemy to islam.  Instead of helping those who came with the intentions to free them and to help(most of the US army, and the muslims amongst them)  they chose to kill aid workers who had the intentions to help, and soldiers who came to free them, and ofcourse the US military is not made up out of Muslims only, so you see alot going wrong, like bombing first before going in, instead the islamic way of making sure you do not kill any innocents, if this was the case, that the US army was made up out of mostly muslims, the situation would have been much smoother and smoother means faster. Unfortunatly most muslims nowadays are sitting on the bench booing and complaining about how bad of a job the US military is doing, kind of imbarassing to say the least. But i am hopefull that muslims will come to terms with their traditions that are holding them back from really seeing what is good and wholesome (a free people) and what is bad(opressed men women and childeren), and good and bad does not mean what your teacher tells you, but one should recognize this out of his ownself, otherwise that person is just a facade, a programmed robot, and the program might be seriously flawed, depending on who programmed him. Because really, there is no other option.

Brother, I respect your response. I hold no reason or desire to attack you or anyone else at all. I am not the United States of America.

They are in the habit of doing that - at least since 1953 - their invasion of Iran. It was an elected government and no one was oppressing anyone.

This sura is about "mediating" between people. I didn't realise that we need the entire war machinery, heavy tanks, the fastest aircraft and tonnes of depleted uranium to mediate between people. So, from today, I should start reading "mediation" whenever a country is invaded?

Please do tell me what we should do with the word "Invasion". Shall we not have it deleted from the dictionary as it has become a bit redundant?