Salaam

             The weakness of informative discussions is the reality that there will be at least one individual stating valid claims based on individual experience. In previous threads several members have made claims against men in the context that men around the world are perhaps inherently oppressive towards men. Without getting too much involved in religion, it is quite factual to make claims with respect to the treatment of women that women in general are under-represented and lack basic rights that would allow them to attain many opportunities. This reality is caused by the dominant culture of patriarchy and although this has been a consistent reality it is nonetheless formed by cultural evolution based no sex distinctions.

             My main concern with this reality is that there have been many remarks that lump all men together in this giant pot as if men are bread (as well as inherently) to be oppressive and evil and sadistic. This is not the case. Women as well as minorities and others share a similar plight: the fight for equality. However I believe it is important both Islamically as well as non-religiously to recognize that men and women are not equal just as the sun and the moon are not equal. It is, with benefit to humanity that we share these differences and appreciate them. But personally we should shed this self-righteous attitude that one gender has some sort of superiority over the other. Women who say �we give life� I would say are wrong. Without men women wouldn�t be able to bare any human children. A man cannot say he created life because without a woman there is nothing to partake in. Although it is nice in words to say each sex has a part in the creation of life we must recognize that God is the Creator of life not humans. God has given the human body the ability to create humans to sustain our species.

Salaams Israfil,

I have just seen this post. Time is short for me today, but I'll return to this, as I would like to add some things of my own

Israfil wrote: But I also think its quite easy for us to get carried away in our own sufferings to over generalize the issue which in the context of language may turn the disadvantaged to the one with the advantage (I can explain later how this is so).

Working mothers - common issues

"But you must understand for the past 6000 years of civilization, women have not been able to voice the problems and in much of the world they still cannot.  Even here in the "progressive" west, many women are forced into silence by their abusers and society."

So has people of color. So has the poor. So has many disadvantaged groups. I agree women have not been able to voice their views on the level of openness as men, but unlike you, I believe optimistically this trend is changing.

You may not like it, as I have said in numberous PMs recently, but the reality is still 1 in 3 women are victims of abuse in their lifetime here in the US.  The ratio worldwide is unknown.  1 in 5 boys are also victims of abuse in the US, and they go on to become abusers statistically.

In my original language I presuppse the idea NOT to generalize. Notice the above bold you are citing U.S. statistics which is fine but the tone of your comments are genrelizations of men globally. My point is since,  the basis of many of your arguments on men you seem to lump all men globally around the world yet you are citing U.S. statistics. If you are trying to support any arguments for such generalizations it is best you use the best reliable global information, not U.S. statistics.

"There are different degrees that a man can harm women in general.  These include economic oppression.  Our society has become dependent on working women.  Some men feel a woman is somehow lazy if she doesn't add a career onto her full hands and yet men rarely assist at home.  Even what you speak of as equality, isn't."

Angela this is a fallacy. Just because men want women to work is not oppressive. In some sectors of society both parents working is necessary, again this is more of an emotional statrement than a factual one. In Los Angeles the average salary to live decent between two working adults is $60k a year. I've said many times over I want my wife to work because I do not have the job or the resources to support myself, a wife, and my future kid(s). Until I can come into a better position in life I cannot afford a housewife. This has nothing to do with wanting to live lavish this is just reality in Los Angeles.

I certainly think its wrong of you to judge men on the basis of so-called economic oppression. Yes you cite statistics but they do nothing to advance your argument on economic oppression. The household duties are just as the man's responsibility as the woman's. The same thing can be said about children. Women do not have greater rights to children than men they are both the parent's responsibilities. Many times I've seen fathers bring their children into the local emergency rooms because their children is sick so there are men who are taking a greater parental role at home. Maybe its cultural. Maybe its change who knows?

As far as pornography is concerned I hardly constitute watching as oppressing the woman committing the pornographic act. One may support the activities by purchasing the pornographic material but I wouldn't say in the midst of watching it you are oppressing the woman actress. You would have to provide a better example on how this is so because this is totally an invalid inference.

Asalamu alaikum:

Can we look at this from a different perspective? The bottom line is that everyone has a choice in how they treat others. Not every rich person steps on the poor, not every white person oppresses a black person, and not every man mistreats a woman.

These forums simply allow those of us who are mistreated to reach out for the help we desperately need. Those of us who are loved and respected by our husbands have nothing to "complain" about, but I am sure we are out there. Sisters, those of you who are in a happy marriage, please take this opportunity to post. I know you do not get the chance often, because those of us who are suffering usually want to hear from others who have had similar experiences and what they did to resolve their issues. So, please, give us all some inspiration and share what you think are the secrets of your success inshaAllah!

sister_a

Israfil,

I hear what you are saying. On the other hand I don't think that the womem say on this board "lump" all men together. Yes we discuss social issues as a whole. We discuss it because we can relate to it as we are women.

I myself think there are three categories..

1. The Piggish men. The Dirt. These are the men who have reprehensable attitudes and actions towards women. They belittle, demean and abuse women. They view women as nothing as the sum of their body parts or how they can best serve them. They are not a human being to be valued. but to be abused, objectified and subjugated. 

2. The Clueless men. The men who are generally "good guys" who dont think about things much. They are like my brothers and brother-in-laws who are good guys,  have a good life and don't necessarily question or think about the way society treats women.

3. The Amazing men. These are the men who are pro-active. They know the situation that women are in. We are more vulnerable. They value strong and empowered women and are not threatened by them. In Islam these are the men who truly, seek to follow the model of the Prophet in their sense on integrity and depth in their treatment of women and others who are vulnerable.   

Pornography. It is often hard for men to understand how watching porn is oppressing women. I understood Angela completely when she said it. If you regularly watch it, then yes, on one level you validate the industry and its ideas. Yes if you happen to see it in passing that is different.

You also viewed Angela as "judging" men. I don't look at her post at all. When she pointed out that men want women to "work" its not about wanting them to "work" to bring in money, but then also they should cook and clean for them. They should, even though exhausted with work and raising children, then want to be waited on or not be expected to also then carry 50% of the load.  

And them wanting them to work is tied into this view that "working" at home with house maintaining and child care is not "work" that is the point. They belittle the child raising which is usually women's domain so to speak.

On one hand you talk about that we personalize our experiences and yet you don't want us to generalize with the statistics that, for example, Angela gave. You want us to not "judge" all men, lump them together and yet also, not speak from personal experience.. what do you want?

All of us post from personal experience. You did that when you gave an examle of "living in LA," expense etc. So this is your reason for saying men are are not "economically oppressing women." as you did write: The weakness of informative discussions is the reality that there will be at least one individual stating valid claims based on individual experience.

I really think self-righteous women should shed the egotistical behavior and really look at the beauty in both sexes.

As far as disucssion, can you give an example and a context? I  feel you posted this for a reason and I am confused as to why. Itsounds like you are on a "Pro-feminist" board where alls they do is complain about those "terrible men".  I studies tons of this stuff in college. I know all about this segment of society. And no one on this board has come across this way to me.

Sister Hayfa,

I am not saying you or other women are lumping men together however I can only evaluate language on the basis of their current context as it is presented here. From what I've seen, when comments are made stating "men are this" and "men are that" those generalizations are indeed lumping men (even me) in the context of said comments.

What I'm saying is if I say "women are thus and so" I'm generalizing women over the world. All I'm saying is we should watch what we say regarding comments. I feel Muslimah's have strong opinions which is fine but I feel that its unfair to judge me based on what men have done in the past.

okay os you wanty people to clarify their language? Say  for instance

"Some men are like...."

"Some women are like..."

Inthis case you should post under a General discussion about the use of language by all people. I find women no more generalizers then men. Just in general. Also, some people are "words" types of people. They are more lingusitically adept. Language, I agree, has a powerful effect. Considering we are from all places in the world.. most people do pretty good!

Whne you post it here you are saying that women are the ones to do this, lump all men together. I think people lump all over the place!

Well sister the reason I post the topic here is because I do want to discuss the treatment of women beyond the scope of the meaning of words. I actually wanted more sisters to discuss their personal experience and how they view the world in relation to those experience. What do women want in men? What do they expect of men aside from the religious obligations? This is not just helpful information to me but to the men who may potential browse this section.

Forgive me if it sounds like I'm singling women out but some of our female members have strong opinions about men in the world and some have conservative views. What I'm trying to do is shed light on the issue of how women are treated around the world not just by men but by society but I more and less wanted to get a personal account not just the stories of others. I'm currently having a private discussion of the issue with Angela and what I've mentioned to her was that "good men" or using your words sister Hayfa, "amazing men" are varying terms that are not concrete because this is how we define them and thus are sub ject to change from our experiece.

For instance there is no such thing as a "perfect man" obviously this is assuming a man has flawless qualities which is not true for humans on this planet. Even calling men amazing may be due to what YOU think are qualities you may think makes a man "good" or "great man" what I want are the core ways how you'd like to be treated by a man if this makes sense.

Israfil,

I would like to ask you about your statement of:-However I believe it is important both Islamically as well as non-religiously to recognize that men and women are not equal just as the sun and the moon are not equal.

What do you mean by this? My first reaction is(purely because I'm woman) is that you could be  saying  man is like the sun, and woman like the moon. As this is how you have chosen to liken it  by the above. You obviously feel that man and woman are not equal. Why do you feel that? 

Why do you feel that Allah created man and woman anything other than equal? 

 Physically man is stronger and in his paternal role would, if the world allowed, be the sole provider for the family. And if the world followed its natural course, the womans place would be meant for caring for the home and raising the children. This could be an example for men to feel superior over women.

But we know that this is Allahs way, not mans invention.

I understand that the title of your topic is 'Treatment of Women', but I feel that until both sexes are in agreement with their main purpose I dont really see that you will get a reply to satisfy you sufficiently.

Throughout the course of history, man has predominantly ruled, and has dictated womans role, thus making him feel more superior, and so not equal to her. In modern times it has become necessary for woman to also work. And there is no problem with that as such, providing she feels she can accomplish all her other tasks. Unfortunately it is often the case that women face discrimination in the work place from man, who feels under threat from the woman who appears to tread in mans shoes. This is not how women see the role on the whole. Women like to be able to work. It gives them a feeling of self worth, that enhances their life as natural wife and mother. She does not become better or superior to man. Nor is she inferior in any way.There are also many women who must work to help provide where man alone is unable to, as I have already said above.

Now I know that many women will be shouting out at me, saying that I am maybe being manipulated by mans thinking, and that I am forced to stay at home. This is not the case. I am also not being forced to work. I have worked extremely hard all my adult life. sometimes a few hours, sometimes many, depending on the circumstances. I have been to adult college, primarily to give me that feeling of self worth, not necessarily to further a career, but to keep the grey matter working well. Many women will say years of child raising drives one slightly insane. So an extra curriculam for her is helpful.

So we need to assess all things, but not detract from the original plan. That is not easy. Because men and women will always be different in their thinking. However it is possible for a married couple to be in agreement with their current situation. When this happens they are equal in their purpose and so fullfilling Allahs plan. At the end of the day, there is no superior sex, each compliment eachother, making adjustments along the way as their life dictates.

I have only mentioned married couples so far with children. The single woman might still face opposition in the work place from man, but less because she is single and needs to maintain her personal situation. (I generalise, and only do so on my personal experience when I was single.)

Many couples that have no children will both work, and will aim for success in their individual fields of their chosen profession.

I feel the work place is an area where women often can face ill-treatment from men, which is why I've mentioned work so frequently throughout this post. And I have explained why this is the case.

But I would still like to know Israfil, why you feel, being a man, why women are not equal to men.

I will post again on Treatment of Women. But I think I've said plenty today to keep you going. I will share my thoughts on women and society, and women in the home, using personal examples as that is what you have asked.

What do you mean by this?

My point in that quote you posted was referring to the behavioral differences of men and women. Not only acknowledging obvious physiological differences but also behavioral/cultural differences. The way men deal with things are on a general basis different than how women deal with things thus in totem, men and women are not equal when it comes to behavior this is not to say morally speaking one is greater than the other it is to say we generally go about life differently.

Physically man is stronger and in his paternal role would, if the world allowed, be the sole provider for the family. And if the world followed its natural course, the womans place would be meant for caring for the home and raising the children. This could be an example for men to feel superior over women.

But we know that this is Allahs way, not mans invention.

Actually women staying home and men providing is a product of culture not nstyre. Where does it say that a woman's biological makeup is meant for her to be at home. Surely child bearing is not an argument for this so what is.

As far as the equal bit again don't misconstrude what I'm saying and think that I'm referring to women are unequal to men for this or that. I'm saying the way we treat each other the way we behave is different.

ASA,

you posted: Although it is nice in words to say each sex has a part in the creation of life we must recognize that God is the Creator of life not humans. God has given the human body the ability to create humans to sustain our species.

I would have to say this is one of the best passages in your post.

I do think men and women are not equal in some very obvious and basic aspects of life. But I also think Islam elevates muslimahs to the same equalities as our brothers in other areas of life that's one of the key things that makes Islam stand out from all other beliefs because it cherishes women.

I happen to think a woman can go out and earn a living and all that good stuff if it's what she wants to do. But I am also thankful to have a loving husband that provides for our family.

Also, I don't know about these postings you are talking about since I'm not always here at the site my family life is very busy these days. But I would think that any sister that pins on her hijab every day would be the last one to point a finger or be the first to stereotype another group or gender since we are so used to being looked at and having fingers pointed at us.

Good luck to you br. and it's been a while since I've been here but I did like your old avatar very much in fact my son cut and pasted it he is really into S/Ws' and it was a great pic'

As'Salamu ALaikum,

Bro.Israfil why did you post it here in this section? Do you have guts to face all these sisters and you alone

Israfil,

OK, so how men and women behave to eachother is different. Yet give several men the same situation, and odds are they will all react differently to it. And women also. That largely I suppose comes down to upbringing and culture. And our own individual personalties.

I'm sure I would be right to say that all religions promote that women stay in the home. It is generalising I know, but scriptures tell us this. Just as it is men who go to war. It's just the way it is.

And again I'm generalising to Aminah07s comments but there are other religions that cherish women too.

I dont think I need to post those extra things I said I would, as I'm not sure its what you're looking for. But I'll continue to follow the thread . Salaams brother.

 Aminah pointed out some good things. I remembered that ladies can work and earn and hold property in Islam. This may not be so in other faiths, as per their written sacred books. Ladies, young or old, married or unmarried, inherit property in Islam.

 I remembered that Muhammad (whom no uncle supported, nor gave any daughter) was called up for a trade mission by a lady (Khadijah r.a.).  It means she was trading, doing business in those old days. Later, she had the idea of selecting Muhammad as her husband. The two were living very well happily and later revelation (Wahi) started after 15 years of successful marriage.

 When Wahi started and it was the first encounter of the prophet s.a.w.s. with the angel gabriel a.s., the prophet s.a.w.s. was very much worried as to what would happen. He rightly feared for his life. But the wife (Khadijah r.a.) gave solace (strength and comfort) to the prophet s.a.w.s. counting his good deeds and good behaviour with the public.

 I am sure that there are some very useful practices in Islam about the ladies. There is officially no burden on the ladies when getting married. All the burden is on the gentleman. But now, the bad practices have crept into the muslim families too.

Aminah07
Groupie

But I did like your old avatar very much in fact my son cut and pasted it he is really into S/Ws' and it was a great pic.

Because you like it I will put my old avatar on.

martha
Senior Member


Yet give several men the same situation, and odds are they will all react differently to it. And women also. That largely I suppose comes down to upbringing and culture. And our own individual personalties.

Martha this is exactly my point.

Both men and women react differently to different stiautions although they, according to researchers, activate brains areas stereotypically attributed to their sex. I'm more concentrating the language some women have concerning men. Angela has pointed out some interesting facts to show how men treat women but I get the feeling that these facts are personal accounts of what they believe about how women treated and how men are. I've heard this before by other Muslim women here. It is not disrespectful language but its pointing out that generalizing the opposite sex despite data and despite seemingly overwhelming evidence is wrong. But more importantly I wanted to know the experiences of women and how they want to be treated. It sounds like a dumb question but trust me according to my experiences women have varying views on how they want to be treated.

WAS,

Israfil, I hope the following is helpful. You wanted to know how women like to be treated. I can only answer for myself.

Well, in my own instance, I feel very different now to how I felt when I was, say, in my late teens. Back then I liked to be treated with flowers and chocolate, and eating out at restaurants. I grew up as a typical westernised woman. I liked a man to have good manners, to open the car door, and make me feel that I was the most important woman on earth to him. I wasnt interested in men that used bad language. But one that minded his 'p's and q's. His behaviour with others also counted. It mattered to me whether he wanted to progress career wise.  So I looked for this in a prospective husband, but also realising that married life would change our lifestyle. Material possessions at that stage in my life were important.

As a young married woman I always appreciated a helping hand, and when we both worked we mutually agreed to divide household tasks. And the flowers and nights out were still appreciated, but were less. Consideration for the other is paramount. Small sacrifices are sometimes necessary. Help when children are very small, ie mid-night bottle feeds and diaper changing was important. I didnt like my husband getting heavy handed with the children at all. So it seldom happened, and then he had me to deal with.

As an older woman now, the most important thing to me is honesty. Above all else. Without it there is little basis for a successful marriage. I say this because a woman should always feel secure. It matters more the older you get. Well for me it does. After honesty- respect and consideration. I have never been a wife to demand nice things for the home, expensive holidays, loads of clothes. Material possessions mean very little to me on the whole. Returning to the young woman 3 decades back, material possessions were important then, but that was before I did missionary work in South America. After seeing the poverty there my views on life completely changed.

Have I helped in any way? Is there anything else you want to know?

As Salamu Alaikum

Masha Allah, very interesting points raised here. I tend to agree more with what brother Irafil is saying.

Salams

Israfil,

Yes, I wondered why you were asking. Communicating with a partner is more than just talking. Men I think sometimes 'listen' but dont actually 'hear' what the woman is saying. I always like eye to eye contact. Then at least you feel you are getting somewhere.

Unfortunately, in this rat race of a world, good communication can be lost purely because of lack of time, or some other distraction ie TV. 

Like you say, men are not mind readers. And women can be very sensitive beings, and need reassurance more than the man. I dont know why. I know of many men that just cant relax after work. That is a huge shame for both partners and can give added tensions too.

Interesting Martha.....

Obviously I realize communication extends beyond simply verbalizing what you want out of your partner, but extends to other areas such as body language, hand gestures etc. From my studies (which I will do my utmost to not generalize) lack of communication and organization (qualities that stem from our frontal lobes of our brains) may come from different thing ssuch as the inability to communicate properly, lack of time, insecurity. and the list goes on. But again I want more views here on how women want to be treated it helps me understand better.

Israfil,

I hope more sisters reply.

asalamu alaykum,

I would say some key points in addition to Martha's (which were great by the way) would be respect and consideration.  A woman likes to know the man is in charge of the house, but she also likes to know he will listen to her advice and input.  Affection is also very important for a woman.  She needs to feel wanted or else this will make her more insecure. 

I will think some more on this and add anything else I think of.

Asalamu alaikum:

Additionally, women like to feel appreciated, not ridiculed and belittled. Compliment her and she will do more for you, complain too much and she will do less.

sister_a

I think overall women want to be treated with respect, love, be able to talk - communicate (but I think women also need to be mindful that men don't talk like women do and some men cannot express like women do and this frustrates women and so they complain that their men don't listen. sure there are some men you can talk and express themselves quite fine). 

Friendship, kindness

feel safe & protected

Share in with the common things and do your own thing too (although that is my personal notion) I believe that you need outside interests as much as sharing the interests you have together. You need time on your own as well as being together - and each individual has varying lengths of time. (also my personal notion)

equality

share in responsibilities

acknowlegement - I don't mean not praising every 2 seconds.

Anyway I think only individual women can only answer what women want, because all we can do is repeat the same things and assume, when indivdual women vary in what they want. 

Hi Israfil,

Have our comments been helpful? It seems we are all very similar

Martha yes your comments were very helpful.

Salams_Wife I concur that women are complicated but so are men. When dealing with human beings its quite hard to understand what the other wants this is why I ask this question. I hope the brothers are reading this.

As-salaam alaykum warhamatullah

I wish I had been privileged to join this discussion earlier.But am glad mash'Allah that my dear brothers&sisters who have contributed so far did justice to the'topic'.

I agree with so many facts stated here.And I would like to reiterate that,the complexity of human nature makes it difficult to really understand each other.And I believe communication is a 'major tool' in breaking this barrier.

This fortunately enough (the topic we're discussing) happens to be something I insha Allahu want to Write about in the future.The relationship that exists between men &women (Islam as a case study).I have discovered over the years that,so many things go unsaid,unaddressed& somewhat 'ignored' as sacred &a no-go area,which isn't supposed to be the case.In most gatherings,what we hear all the time is how the 'wife should be "obedient" to her husband&not the other way round.Isn't it time we changed that cliche by addressing the fact that some women suffer in silence all in the bid of being'a Pious wife'?The Ummah needs to know that women,just like men deserve the goodness they derive from their spouses in return.They need to understand that,even though Allah has given the man,right over the woman,He did not deny her the gentle treatment,kindness,affection and respect from her husband.The man is the head of the family no question about that.But the woman needs to know she is respected&appreciated for all the support she gives,whether she's working or a stay at home wife.The work she does at home cannot be quantified as it's a continuous one.And this is the reason she needs to feel secured.To feel that her efforts are been appreciated.

I personally believe every woman wants her man to be caring.No one wants a rigid,holier than thou man for a husband!What's the joy in that?

asalamu alaykum sister lovesakeenah,

Everything you said is so true and isn't discussed enough.  Thankyou for sharing your view as well and inshallah you do write more on that topic.  I would love to read it.

 Everything written by lovesakeenah is 100% correct. If man does not want to get into trouble then he should give maximum facility in the house to the lady. That will keep her happy. It will keep the husband also happy. In that case, the wife should not make the husband feel sad for anything.

 Wife should look after the wishes of the husband. The house should run as directed by the husband but it should be run by the wife and husband should not stand on her head for every little thing.

 Wife should be given enough funds to run the house and she should have security of living. There should be assurance to the wife of continous living accommodation no matter what happens. If the man makes or buys a house and they have children then it should (if possible) the house should be in the name of the wife.

 It is true that muslims (husbands and wives) both need to be trained according to laws of Quran & Sunnah. Some men try to misuse the wife as if it was a piece of shoe. I will post more soon,Insha Allah,  if I can get hold of the right material that i heard some where.

As-salaam alaykum warahamatullah wabarakatuh

Bro.Israfil,don't throw away the baby with the bath water.Giving up on women isn't a 'solution'.It is a'denial',it's like running away from the 'inevitable.Whichever way you look at it,whether you get married or remain a celibate,you'd have to relate with women in your own family.You must have a mother,perhaps a sister,an aunt a paternal or maternal grannny, a neighbour,a colleague or a fellow sister in faith(like we here even though we don't see physically)&the list goes on.

If you decided to neglect womenfolk on claim of their complexity,what do you think would happen if all women did the same?

It is not easy to get over a hurt,but it's not the end of the world.And just like we agreed that you can't judge "all men" by the actions of a few,the same rule should apply to the women.

Humans generally are a complex being,irrespective of the gender.We live with domestic animals&understand them easily.it's not the same case with humans&that's the way nature has designed it.

Even if you were disappointed in the action of a number of women,simultaneously;it doesn't suffice to say 'every woman is that way.For instance,if you're Asian,you can't judge European women according to the acts of Asian women.And the same goes for Americans or African women.This is not even mentioning the diversities in culture,customs&traditions.Should we delve into religion?You'd realize that it's almost inexhaustible.You would find that a sample of one woman each from all these Continents would differ in characters,traits&attitudes.

If you haven't gone beyond your home country or your country of resident,you can't make a blanket judgement.You shouldn't give up because if every woman was as coniving&unpredictable as you said,other men wouldn't have wives nor would there be multiplication of the human race.

If each woman here also starts to relate their different experiences in the hands of men,you'd feel disgusted&disappointed.

Some men abuse their wives,emotionally&physically.Some women still get the courage to're-marry' after horrifying experiences in the hands of men.They could as well discard that idea&decide to remain unmarried.But you know,life isn't that simple.Some decisions are made not just in 'our own' personal interest,but in consideration of other factos such as family,religion to mention a few.

Am not just directing this post to you,but to everyone who had been forced to make a 'blanket judgement'.We've all in one way or the other had our own share of life's lessons.

May Allah continue to strenghten us&guide us aright.

Yes there are conniving women. And there areconniving men.. Sad as a reality isn't it?

Funnily, I have a distrust of men. That does not mean that thee are not good men byany means. But men appear to be from Mars.. lol

A huge part is that generally men and women want certain things and how it is demonstrated or fufilled is not often complementary. Women discuss feelings and chat more easily. Men less so.

As a girl growing up in the west. I thought the only thing men wanted was sex with nothing of caring involved. As a nonMuslim there is of course intermingling.   How many men (boys and young men) would tell me they "loved" me upon first meeting.  All in one aim. It made me very wary of men. It made me tihnk that all men look at with women is the superficial... what they are like (how they look) on the outside.

Am sorry I can't go into details,but I've had my fair share as well.But it hasn't stopped me from being who I truly am.I can't let some ingrates confuse me that ther're no good men around.Though,they might be hard to find.I don't mean to sound controversial,but I have equally learnt over time that even being religious doesn't make anyone "infallible".That attribute belongs to Allah only.I've been privileged to listen to the ordeals of some Sisters&I just had to tell them to take solace in Allah&expect reward from him.

Sis.Hayfa,it doesn't happen in the West alone.But Africans also have youths who have been influenced by the Western world& some,just being who they really are.You're right to think 'all men want is sex,as a teenager'.I mean,that's just what we see all around,till date.Sorry if am drifting away from the main topic here.There're teenage pregnancies flying around like the air we breathe in.And loads of bastards.So,you were not wrong to think that way cos ifwe want to look at it,how many of those 'relationships' ends up in marriage?

lovesakeenah,

Very nice post but I may disagree with you on several points. Without involving any of my own clinical studies I'll relate to you my own observations of the many people (of many ethnic and national origins) I've came across to. I would like to first acknowledge in agreeing with you that you are right and in exclaiming the truth that all human beings are different. From the patterns of our fingers to the pigmentations of our skins we all have unique qualities. HOWEVER, as I've mentioned already I've observed many personalities and although there are varying differences there are what I've come to known, "common behavior."

For example with respect to a traditional and conservative setting women want men for certain things such as food, and shelter as well as security (security I define as the basic emotional elements e.g. trust, love, affection) in both the physical and emotional aspect. But these basic necessities I find are mostly common to women ( a generalizable fact as it appears from here).Like most relationships that fail there is a sense of defensiveness in both men and women and this is a common reaction to the failure of a relationship in which the emotion (what Freud would call the ego) protects itself from being hurt again thereby refraining from the natural reaction of allowing someone to get close.

but unfortunately lovesakeenah you have extended your own version of truth from what I meant in such a small paragraph in my previous post. What I truly meant was that instead of holding women in such high esteem as I've done in the past I have instead concluded that women are on the same level as men in the sense of emotional output. Women much like men, are diabolical coniving and deceiving. I am even tempted to tip the scale in favor of women in this respect but because (I do not know every single woman on the planet so a generalization of this magnitude would be false). I have recently conseled women who have confessed to lying to their ex husbands on child support. I have spoken with women who have confessed to lying about rape just to keep a man. I have spoken with women who lie cheat and steal. Of course this is not to say a man does not do this but the point is, is that with respect to my own faith I have come to the realization that I shouldn't have to bend over backwards for a women and although women should be treated with absolute equal respect, they should also do the same for a man.

For example if a man takes care of a woman a woman shoudl take care of a man. Too many times I've spoken with Muslimahs who interpret the Islamic doctrine concerning the treatment of women as a way of "milking" the man. Of course this is limited to my own experience and not generalizable to everyone else but my point is it exist. In addition, so many times women use bearing children as a reaosn to use against this (the equal treatement in relationships) and I would say that conceiving a child is a choice both partners made and should not be used as leverage against the other in arguments rather, it should be a celebration and support between both participants.

Just because women give birth doesn't mean women are extra special and should be treated special because women in the sense of giving birth are as important as men.

Lovesakeenah you said: Giving up on women isn't a 'solution'.It is a'denial'

Hmmm  how am I in "denial?" I said in my own personal life ( not my clinical practice) I've given up on women  and trying to understand them but this is not to say I do not want a relationship with a woman. The human personality is too complex to try to understand in a friendly way, rather, I'd just try to take what I can get and go from there. However, despite your opposition to my generalization you did not address the following: "Funnily, I have a distrust of men"

With the same tone I have a distrust of women as well. I don't even trust Muslims. Being in the sam religion as me does not make one impervious to doing ill will to other humans. I believe if women wanted to, could really do much psychological damage to men and could really abuse the Western legal system. Because women have some say in the law women can and could manipulate the  western legal system. Again as I've said before I've spoken with women who have falsified their stories for an agenda this is not to say men haven't but to point out that women are just like men in every sense and this have a commonality among them.

"Your statement of'giving up on women' was ambigious&I just assumed,'you didn't want anything to do with women,personally or professionally'.Sorry for the wrong assumption.

Just like I said earlier,the examples you've stated about the'unthinkable things' women do isn't prevalent where I come from.Now,am not trying to be self-righteous here,but I've grown to a point in my life where'disappointments' by humans like myself doesn't throw me off balance.So,the distrust I have wasn't what I chose,but it was a resolution I had to make to keep my sanity as I can't deal with the thought of'infidelity' in relationships.I don't distrust'all the men' I've known in my life,like my father,brother,cousins&the rest.But,I've had my fair share of 'heartbreaks'& I know it might be hard to convince you,but the fault wasn't mine.That am very clear&certain about.I grew to a point of wanting to pursue a career&just live my life without having to worry about someone hurting me,especially when the person in question is a close relation.

Where I come from,Muslimahs marry for the sake of Allah.They bear all the baggage that comes with marital bliss&heartaches,astagfirullah.They hang-in-there.They're not as mean as some women who woud kill their husbands for 'alimony'(we don't even have that).They carry on with life like everything's fine,when it's actually not.I look at some of these women(Muslimahs)&pray that Allah rewards them for their patience&forbearance.

In our non-Islamic world on the other hand,I have seen same women with love&devotion to their marriages.I can't really begin to narrate the very irritating incidents I had been witness to.How I ask myself,"what would I ever do with men,if not for Islam"?I mean,I have seen these things& as much as I agree that women could be deceitful,manipulative&impatient(esp where material things are concerned); I have seen far worse of men&just had to learn to accept the fact that,"humans would always be humans".

I rest my case!!

Israfil, would you say thatwomen can appear more "conniving" because in a basic functional sense, women have needed men more than women. Islam aside (marrying for Allah) why do men marry? Intraditional cultures both marry cause its the thing to do. Everyone does it. Women may seem more conniving as they are given the basic functional reality of caring for the children.. in most cases. So thus security is a big thing. As you see in the west, where marriage is no longer the "norm" men feel no need to make a commitment. Why? Cause they don't need it to have access to sex.

And interestingly, men tend to have more partners than women, men in many cultures can marry more than one woman. Women tend to do this far less. Women have more to loose, both socially and economically with the father or "man" involved.

Am I making any sense?   

I do think there are plenty of sweet and good women all over the world. Of course the oneswho do the bad stuff gets the press. As we see with the rate of AIDS, 75% of cases for women are getting it from their nonmonogamous partners-be it husband,  partner etc.  Women do tend to hve better impulse control (thinking of consequences) than men.

I think there will be abuse by some people. That is the choice we have in our lives.

Lovesakennah it's quite obvious from your own experiences much like mine you stated some subjective truths about how you feel. I think the key to what you've stated was that the behavior of some women are "unthinkable" to you because they are not as prevalent as it is where I live. I have thus taken into account the state, city, and location where I live as contributing elements to everyday personality. I live in the fourth largest economy in the world and the second largest movie production state in the world. I live in a state where materialism i nsglamorized in films and in the media so its quite possible that all these elements contribute to an individual's personality. So allow me to again reiterate my previous statements and say all what I've said are with respect to my experiences and have not bearing on an objectivity nor are they generalizable, but I have seen common behavior exhibited by women.

Where you come from Muslimah's marry for the sake of Allah which, from face value is a noble thing and have no doubt that such is true where you live. I am with viewing this statement however skeptical that Muslims do in fact marry for the sake of Allah. Without challenging the truthfulness of your statement are you certain those  Muslimah's marry for the sake of Allah? I'm even skeptical of such statements. As a Muslim man I've always done thing not for the sake of Allah but for the sake of others (when I'm doing acts that may benefit another). If I love a woman and told her I marry her for the sake of another it does not sound humanly sincere (if that makes sense) rather it means in a semi-selfish way I'm doing such because "God told me to." This is not to get into a discussion about the semantics of words but to point out intentions in our relations with each other.

If we love out of sincerity and care for that person without thinking of a benefit of ourselves we may in turn love for the sake of Allah. Just imagine someone giving you a card on your birthday and saying "the only reason I gave you a card was for your sake, because I think it nice." To some, it may not have no effect, but to others it may come across as an insincere gesture, only brought about through an occasion not from a self-motivating act. But more imporantly, my point in all this is in addressing the behavior of women in relationships some men do not know a woman's intention and with respect to the legal system here in the United States I have been firmly convinced women can, and could manipulate the system both in the marital sense and legal sense.

Need I remind you that I am in law enforcement so we have delt with false cases of rape however these are far less common than the actual crime. Remeber sister your experiences (and words here) are strictly limited to where you live as well as mines and so the common area I can say we may agree is that human beings in both sexes males and females can be hurtful to each other. I just think its unfortunate that there are some women who are unappreciative of good men and are careless in both muslim and non-muslims. You ask "what would you do with men if it weren't for Islam? Isn't this such a biased and generalization? Oh by the way you mentioned alimony? I'm really curious where you live because in California (and other states where such happens) women seem to win everytime. I'm now convinced when I hit the 6 figure mark (which I have already) when I marry I'm getting a pre-nup.

Sister Hayfa,

You made a very valid point that men in the western culture dont feel the need to make the commitment to women in marriage. Of course it doesnt always apply, and some men make very good husbands. But I remember a comment made by an egotistical man, some years back. He was married but felt it acceptable to have mistresses whenever he chose. His view of marriage itself was that it was only  legal prostitution!  I'm sure no woman would never refer to marriage in this way. At least I hope they wouldnt.

Hayfa you said:

Israfil, would you say thatwomen can appear more "conniving" because in a basic functional sense, women have needed men more than women. Islam aside (marrying for Allah) why do men marry?

I had a tough time trying to put this together but I think I have it.

Would I say women are selfish, diabolical, or ruthless because of those basic functions (which you've listed above)? No. In marital relationships these qualities are equal. I believe its important in marital relationship men and women have some emotional and physical dependencies, however it becomes diabolical, selfish, and ruthless when these dependencies are illusory to the real intention which is to take advantage of the person irrespective of their partners feelings towards them.

why do men marry?

I wouldn't know because reasons vary, but if I were to make an educated guess I would say religionist men marry for the same reasons as religionist women. There are no significant differences in these reasons and if there are please point them out in several cultures in the world where there are obvious significant differences.

Intraditional cultures both marry cause its the thing to do. Everyone does it. Women may seem more conniving as they are given the basic functional reality of caring for the children.

Sister I'm curious to ask (with no disrespect to you) do you understand the concept of conniving? It means to conspire against someone secretly in case you didn't know. So I was unsure of where you were going with the above bold, but perhaps I myself was not clear. If so, my apologies.

As you see in the west, where marriage is no longer the "norm" men feel no need to make a commitment. Why? Cause they don't need it to have access to sex.

I don't think the changes in family (e.g. marriages) are just from the result of what you've stated above. From studies since the 40's families have changed with the times which includes the advancement of technology (development and production of more vehicles) to the 80's with the creation of computers and internet. Women work more than they have and have more opportunities than they did so the shift in the family has changed. Men on the other hand when it comes to the family have not changed much except with the advancement of technology being more accessible. With respect to sex, the opportunity to access this is open to both genders how else can you account for the reported cases for STD's?

And interestingly, men tend to have more partners than women, men in many cultures can marry more than one woman. Women tend to do this far less. Women have more to loose, both socially and economically with the father or "man" involved.

Hayfa I hope you weren't making this statement as a universal one? What you stated above is more along the lines of tradition and social conditioning verses what actually is and even so, this is limited to the type of society you live in. Again, I have to redirect us back to the state of California where there are women who see having multiple partners as a great benefit especially if they (these women) are materialist. If multiple partners are giving you money and other expenses this is a great benefit both economically and emotionally because you basically have nothing to lose. Again we can only address the issues of our respective societies using the experiences we have.

Am I making any sense?  

Yep.

I do think there are plenty of sweet and good women all over the world. Of course the oneswho do the bad stuff gets the press.

The bad women don't get the press in the sense that you have worded it. I believe this is just common knowledge among men period which has nothing to do with media. The only element I would say that may contribute to a mindset of addressing all women as bad is through family or through media but this is dependent uupon the society you live in. I firmly believe being bad is more of a common attribute in our planet than good. A lot of people do things out of pure selfishness than sincerity.

As we see with the rate of AIDS, 75% of cases for women are getting it from their nonmonogamous partners-be it husband,  partner etc.  Women do tend to hve better impulse control (thinking of consequences) than men.

How would the reported AIDS cases have anything to do with the character of women? I just recently did a report on AIDS cases in the world with the CDC (Center for Disease Control) and I'm curious what country is the 75% from? Or are you speaking in the general sense?

Israfil,

I have to agree with some of your comments. The modern world has changed women to a great extent. The picture you have painted of women using several partners at once is true in many ways. You could say that women have become just as immoral as men throughout the ages. Now I dont know why this is the case. I personally dont like this kind of modern woman. It gives us all a bad name, in the very least it makes it harder for nice girls to find a genuine man. After all, if men have such a poor concept of women, how on earth can women be happy?Trust is obviously lacking in all areas.

Has there been a time in history that you feel women were loyal to their spouse? Is it not possible to have these kind of marriages now? I'm sure there already are many successful marriages.

It is a common trait in man/woman to be deceitful. We are all capable of anything both good or bad. Life requires a huge amount of restraint. Life is hard, there is no doubt about that. But we can find the right person. At the end of the day I think it comes down to luck.

To some extent I agree with all posts.

I think one point is missing about some women thou and why they act out the way they do, is their past, what was their relationship with their father like or the man/men in their mother's live like. Or what was their mothers attitude to men like. Some women act the way they do towards men because of negative emotional baggages if they haven't sorted it out it will be carried out thoughtout their relationships with men. Some women keep attracting bad men that is usually because of the past and the learning they got. Women going from one abusive relationship to another and can't hold on to a good one when it comes along is because of their perspective about men and relationships, if they saw their mother being beaten or some other abusive act from their father or another close male when they were young then this is going to affect them later when they start relationship/s of their own and attract the same kind of men because they think that is what relationships with men are. Until the cycle is broken either from learning about the causes in adult life and re changing your perspective, And how certain things affect kids while growing up for which is then the parents responsibility and/or other close adults.

Of course this goes for men and their relationships. And again of course some of this may not affect the person but has an healthy view.

Another point, for me there is 2 meanings to selfishness which is on par with being self centered, one is where its all about you and you don't care about others and you just take and take, the other is actualy taking care of yourself and surival at times comes into this to. I think some women may act out for survival reasons either taking control so they are not hurt any in way.

Of course some women are just witches who don't give an absolute damn so its all me me me.

The past is pretty much significant for all of us both males and females. It is what makes up cultures and ethnic groups and the entailing behaviors. I believe I covered this in my last post about being conditioned not only from personal experienced but by culture as well. But Angel you brough up some excellent points concerning the aqspect of how difficult it is for women to break away the cycle of abuse and their attraction of abusive men. ith respect to abuse (because its a topic you brought up) many women choose to stay in abusive relationships for a variety of reasons (some  you mentioned) such as: past parental relationships, their experiences in family whether sexual or physical abuse is present.

It is definitely important that women break the cycle because the continuance of negative behavior will only damage potential good relationships in the future. I can only say recently I was some what a victim of that.

Israfil wrote: It is definitely important that women break the cycle because the continuance of negative behavior will only damage potential good relationships in the future.

Well, women, those who are in abusive or bad relationships who tend to repeat, only can break the cycle if they know what it is and why, they tend to be attracting these kinds of relationships.

men need to learn to why they abuse women so they to can break the cycle.

Ok Angel this is where we disagree slightly getting off topic here......

Women in abusive relationships KNOW they are being abused whether its verbally or physically they know in their minds its abnormal. However research has shown that some women stay in abusive relationships because its a formative pattern from a previous abusive relationship in childhood. In these instances it may not seem abnormal to the person per se since this is an experience they have been through before they know (through various psychological studies) women in abusive relationships are distressed and mentally unstable. That in itself shows they know something is wrong even if its an indirect knowledge.

With regards to men studies have shown that men who abuse have been abused themselves in childhood. Also, if the father or mother is seen as the abuser at home, a child going through these experiences may believe such a behavior maybe acceptable. But all of which are factors dependent upont the individual's environment. So when you say "men need to learn why they abuse women so they can break the cycle" even if you learn something change is quite different than actually learning it. Changing one's own behavior (or views) is the most difficult. The similitude of this is like a man trying to smash concrete with a small hammer. Change can only be made when drastic measures to change are done.

Israfil wrote: Ok Angel this is where we disagree slightly getting off topic here...... Women in abusive relationships KNOW they are being abused whether its verbally or physically they know in their minds its abnormal. However research has shown that some women stay in abusive relationships because its a formative pattern from a previous abusive relationship in childhood. In these instances it may not seem abnormal to the person per se since this is an experience they have been through before they know (through various psychological studies) women in abusive relationships are distressed and mentally unstable. That in itself shows they know something is wrong even if its an indirect knowledge.

There's no disagreement here Israfil.

I've gone one step furthur than what you mentioned, I thought you been a psychology major would know that but I guess not. You seemed to know it for men. Some of those who are abused would know its wrong because they would have a feeling that something is not right but cannot get out of it or break the cycle of repeated bad/abusive relationships - they need to know why and where it came from before they can break the cycle, you need to address that until you do then the cycle stays. 

With regards to men studies have shown that men who abuse have been abused themselves in childhood. Also, if the father or mother is seen as the abuser at home, a child going through these experiences may believe such a behavior maybe acceptable. But all of which are factors dependent upont the individual's environment.

I know.

So when you say "men need to learn why they abuse women so they can break the cycle" even if you learn something change is quite different than actually learning it. Changing one's own behavior (or views) is the most difficult. The similitude of this is like a man trying to smash concrete with a small hammer. Change can only be made when drastic measures to change are done.

Why couldn't you apply this to women,  

I've said pretty much the same thing for which you agreed with me. But you seem to be on the side that you think because women "know" they need / should be able to break the cycle like that. its not entirely true and or that easy, like I said you need to KNOW why (and I've talked about the past for which you agreed) & that takes counselling.

So why don't you seem to be on the same side as me anymore?

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Because the wording was not in agreement with what I had intended but perhaps I saw it differently. I disagree with your pressumption of knowing and doing. I've recently learned through faculty members that knowing and doing are separate things even though in many instances we tend to think one transitions to the other such as if  I know my ABC's I'll be able to read in which case it is not always true. Even women who get counseling are not always going to break the cycle and what I mean by the comment "sometimes it takes drastic measures" I'm referring to an act where the woman's life is immediate danger and the individual has to be forcibly moved into a different environment for their own safety. Unless you have clinical experience you won't know what I'm talking about.

Remember Angel you wrote two sentence in the post I responded and now you wrote a whole paragraph so maybe you need to be more thourough with your post. It is not to say I don't agree with you I don't agree with your presentation, besides this is off topic.

Israfil wrote: Because the wording was not in agreement with what I had intended but perhaps I saw it differently. I disagree with your pressumption of knowing and doing. I've recently learned through faculty members that knowing and doing are separate things even though in many instances we tend to think one transitions to the other such as if  I know my ABC's I'll be able to read in which case it is not always true. Even women who get counseling are not always going to break the cycle and what I mean by the comment "sometimes it takes drastic measures" I'm referring to an act where the woman's life is immediate danger and the individual has to be forcibly moved into a different environment for their own safety. Unless you have clinical experience you won't know what I'm talking about. Remember Angel you wrote two sentence in the post I responded and now you wrote a whole paragraph so maybe you need to be more thourough with your post. It is not to say I don't agree with you I don't agree with your presentation, besides this is off topic.

maybe I do need to be more thorough, the reason why I said one sentence about men needing to learn also why they abuse, is so I wouldn't go off track and to quickly counter-balance you.

As for presentation i never claimed that i'm a great writer.

Back to the issues. What you explained in the above paragraph is something i've known for some time. I know couselling will not always work for some, I know there is a difference between knowing and doing and i also know that knowing your abc's is not going to make you read.

I never assumed/claimed that counselling will always work.

I never presumped that knowing and doing is one. I kept on saying that there is knowing and then there's "KNOWING" which only in many cases couselling will bring about. I did agree with you that some women will know that is not right but they need to know why they cannot break the cycle and couselling will help. You went on about women know so they need to break the cycle, to do. I just kept on that it doesn't really work that way.