Uniting as ONE in Islam and no sects
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Topic: Uniting as ONE in Islam and no sects
Posted By: layalee
Subject: Uniting as ONE in Islam and no sects
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 5:06pm
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As-Salaamu Alakum Al-Imran 3:106- And be not like those who became divided and disagreed among themselves after clear proofs had come to them. And it is they for whom there shall be a great punishment. The Quran is a perfect book. It is a book of guidance. Together this mean that the guidance one receives from the Quran is perfect and an individual do not need to go beyond the scope of the teachings of Quran to receive guidance. While I stand beyond the previous stated opinion, I will strongly state that one can still find guidance through other facets, by attending mosque and turning to close Muslim friends and family members for example. But to support my opinion further, all sources of correct guidance needs to have a direct link to the Quran. If the glorious Quran states that we should not be separated or divided why do so many Muslims choose to follow a particular Islamic sect? There are numerous sects in Islam, for example there are: Ahmediyyah, Nation of Islam, Ansaru Allah, Moors, Suni, Warith-deen, Bahaullah, Shi�tes, Baatiniyyah, Boharas, Dawoodi Boharas, Nusavris, Salifis, Durze, Agakhaani, Jamaat-e-Islami, Sufism, Deobandism, Tableegi-Jamaat, and countless others. Some sects I named are very popular and mainstream while others aren�t, but regardless of their popularity a sect leads to us as Muslims dividing ourselves. The time has come that all Muslims join together and stop the separations. I do not want to witness the wars and battles that are taking place because we as Muslims refuse to simple unite as one. I am an individual that submits completely to my Lord, and is totally blessed to be able to receive the perfect guidance that the glorious Quran provides to me. I am a Muslim. I am a Muslim because this is what the Quran taught me to be. I do not belong to any sect. I do what is right not because a sect says it�s right but because the Quran and valid hadiths say they are right. Al-Hajj 22:79- And strive in the cause of Allah at it behoves you to strive for it. He has chosen you, and has laid no hardship upon you in religion; so follow the faith of your father Abraham; He named you Muslims both before and in the Book, so that the Messenger may be a witness over you, and that you may be witness over mankind. Therefore observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and hold fast to Allah. He is your Master. An excellent Master and an excellent Helper! Brothers and Sisters! Why can we not all unite as one? Are you willing to let go of any title you may hold, and simply be known as a Muslim? Am I wrong to feel that this is what Allah (swt) commanded for me and my fellow sisters and brothers? Please look deeply into your heart and answer these questions. Salaam Your sister Layalee |
Replies:
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 6:39pm
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Thanks Layalee, Good intentions. Accoeding to you, any one who calls himself Muslim is a Muslim. But can you get friends to agree to that? This Unity is always the subject of the Khutbah at Hajj. Has the Imam e Hajj been able to unit the Muslims?? Answer is NO. Can you tell why he could not unite them? You please tell me one good reason why he was not successful in bringing about unity amongst Muslims. I will then get back to you soon, Insha Allah. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 8:54pm
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As salaamu Alakum Brother ( minuteman) The Imams during Hajj try hard in the preaching during Hajj and other times to bring together the unity of all Muslims. Do they reach their over all goal in the Khutbah? In a sense I will have to agree they don't. This is obvious by what we see in the world of Muslims that choose to separate themselves; the disagreements that tear up families, causes confusion and interfere with the true message of Islam. Why does the message of unity in the Khutbah fail to be reached? Well I think it's our own responsibility to gain the knowledge and wisdom which is in the message and to bring it into action. The imam presented the message now it is up to us to follow it. If we chose as a whole to not follow the message then we are the ones that will have to face the consequences. But I want to have faith that the message during Hajj still reach individuals. That their are Muslims that return home after hajj and still hold the message of the Khutbah in their heart and try to form ways to bring a plan of unity in action. I will rather stand up for what I believe in and hold strong in my belief then fall victim to my fears that I wil not be accepted by my fellow Muslim friends,family, and associates, if I do not join a sect that they follow. I feel that all Muslims need to overcome this fear and join in unity. Unity can not be achieve if we continue to be separated. In response to a comment you made earlier about what I feel a Muslim is-- 'Accoeding to you, any one who calls himself Muslim is a Muslim' Well, No that's not how I feel. Being a muslim is more then simply calling ourselves Muslims. We have to also follow a particular action to be true Muslims. Al-Imran3:111 You are the best people raised for the good of mankind; you enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil and believe in Allah. And if the People of the Book had believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are disobedient. Salaam |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 1:20pm
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Yes, good post Layalee. About the Imam Khutbah Hajj, the reason is that the message of the Imam is not good, not complete. It lacks some important item. About my saying that any one calling himself a Muslim is a muslim though for the namesake. That is correct. What you said is correct about a real Muslim in the true sense of the word. Thanks. Now my question to you is: What is lacking in the message (Khutbah) of Hajj?? Can you point out that please??
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 8:11pm
| Brother( minuteman) I must admit I was not able to find a copy of the Khutbah that was stated in the 2007 Hajj so that I may read it. Do you know of a link that may be able to provide a English translation? |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 8:20pm
What is the precise means to distinguish a true Muslim from a Muslim who follows a sect. ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
layalee wrote:Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 8:34pm
I don't want to come off as saying that one is not a true Muslim if they follow a sect. But the quran provides clear verses on why we should not separate ourselves, and following and claiming a sect clearly causes separation. If one begin to realize this knowledge that the Quran has presented then it is up to that individual if they want to continue claiming to a sect. Allah(swt) will make the final decision on the matter of that individual in the end. |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 9:20pm
Forgive me for delving further but I feel that you are doing some question begging. Would you be so kind as to clarify what constitues a sect.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 1:38am
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As Salamu Alaikum I'm all for unity too, but don't know what constitues a sect? Salams
------------- �Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165) "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 5:43pm
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sect n. A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
As I stated above there are various number of sects in Islam ,the number is much larger then the ones I even provided for examples.
A problem that is witness by many of the negative causes of sects are the disagreements that Suni and Shi'tes have had for many years, for example.
I don't think the reality of sects existing can be denied, so I was surprised to see why I was asked what constitutes a sect.
I could name the similarities and differences between each one, but
don't feel that was the point of my posting.
My post was done more out of curiosity to see what other posters thought of the idea of Muslims deciding to no longer claim belonging to a sect.
When I first converted to Islam, I considered myself a sunni Muslim, but then I realized that the quran simply provides the best guidance on how I can be a rightous Muslim, and in fact it is against the spread of ideas that differ about the correct teachings that the Quran and the Prophet Mohammad (p.b.u.h) provides. Now I just want to consider myself a Muslim.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I guess if I'm a be thought of as question begging, then yes, I will say that I am.
I urge to have understanding. Because if the message that has been presented to Muslims is so clear, then why do we divide ourselves into different sects?
Al-Zumar 39:24 'Allah has sent down the best Message in the form of a Book, whose verses are mutually supporting and repeated in diverse forms at which do creep the skins of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts soften to the remembrance of Allah. Such is the guidance of Allah; He guides therewith whom he pleases. And he whom Allah adjudges astray- he shall have no guide.'
Al-Ma'Idah 5:16 'O People of the Book! there has come to you Our messenger who unfolds to you much of what you have kept hidden of the Book and passes over much. There has come to you indeed from Allah a Light and a clear Book.'
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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 3:48pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem assala,u alaikum I think you need to put things in perspective, if you go through the long list of sects, 73 by rasul allah's sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam count, look at how big these sects actually are. Shia the largest Muslim sect is no more than 10% [and im being very generous here] of the entire Muslim population world wide. Sunni's comprise 87-93%, so in reality i dont see how the situation is dire as you say it is. Br Andalus is asking who you consider a sect because most people don't actually know, they will assume things like wahhabbi/salafi's being a sect in Islam the same way shia are which is incorrect. the definition of what you consider a sect is very broad and not in conformity with the Islamic understanding. Sunni's are the large group [as your definition states] and everything else is a sect outside the main body of Muslims. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 4:36pm
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Thank you for the reply you provided Rami. Your posting have gave me points I should consider. But I can't only help but wonder will we as Muslims begin to feel closer together if we were to drop the titles of groups/sects that we have choosen to follow. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 5:33pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem When it comes to titles you need to apply understanding otherwise you would simply be alarmist for no reason at all. Allah has more than 99 titles by which he is known, rasul allah from memory has more than 300 which allah has called him by, there is nothing wrong with titles or labels in and of them selfs its what they mean or represent that is an issue. go back in history to a time when there where no groups or titles you had just muslims, the first group to diferentiate themselfs from the muslim Ummah where the shia [literaly partisans] once you have one group splitting up how do the rest of the muslim ummah who havnt sided with anybody know or identify themselfs its by giving themselfs a lable to show they are not with these people causing trouble, at the time the shia had killed the very people they claimed where in the right i.e ahl al bait. So the Muslims decided on a simple name who by its meaning people understood what they where following, SUNNI meaning a Muslim who follows the sunnah. Its not the labels you have to drop but the wrong beliefs and that will never occur [sister] until the time of the Mahdi and Isa [hs] when Allah him self said [as it is stated in a hadith] he will make our hearts united so we are one group. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 6:35pm
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Thank you for the wisdom you have provided. Especially infomation on the hadith that provides the promise that Allah(swt) will unite our hearts as one. I need to have more faith that Allah(swt) knows exactly what has to be done and everything takes place for a reason. Salaam |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 9:25pm
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rami has given good info. Sects are meant to be some section of the main body of Muslims, even though it be small in number. Allah had forbidden the Muslims to become divided. He wants us to remain united as One Ummah. In the end Rami has also pointed out a good thing. There is no use changing the name only for unification. To be untied in name will not be useful unless Muslims are united by heart. It is like a disease which is showing its symptoms. If you try to remove only the symptoms of the disease but do not cure the disease, it would be very dangerous. But coming back to Laylee, There is a dire need for unity. The situation cannot be allowed to go on as it is. More in next post, thanks.... (continued) ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 9:45pm
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The people of different sects have different thinking and interpretation of the Quran / Hadith. They do not remain in a peaceful state for long. They, each sect start working for the sect and not for ISLAM. They start fighting and the enemies of the Ummah have good chances of breaking in and doing more damage to the Ummah. Then each sect starts calling the other Kaafir. It is a direct disobedience of Allah to be divided into sects: Please read verse 3:103. It says "Hold fast to the rope (line) of Allah and do not be divided into sects." In another place, it is said about those who had been divided into sects that " Every sect is happy with what they have". (verse 30:32). So it is not a good sign to be divided. It is not will of Allah and by doing so we are misusing the liberty that Allah has provided to us to use our choice. It is a bad use of the choice. So it is a sin. Now, we come back to the original problem: How to go about achieving Unity of thought and deed and name (title)? Can any one suggest some simple answer to that? Some answer which may become an easy base for getting united. Not only we should work for the unity of the Muslim Ummah but also It should be our endeavor to work for the real unity of the Jews and the christians too, within their own faiths. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 5:55am
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As I understand it, sunnah means "the way" or "path of" for Muhammad's example/actions to follow. Don't shia's also follow Muhammad? I know they have a few differences. -------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 6:14am
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salaam brother( minuteman) Developing unity may be a challenge, but I hope I live to see it before Allah(swt) take my breath away. Insha'Allah. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 7:54pm
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Yes god wishes are well worth it. You will be rewarded. The Hadith number one is described by Hazrat Umar r.a. It states "Actions depend on intentions." You have good intentions. So be it good for you. Since nobody has come up with any suggestion or nobody has taken any interest in the matter of the Unity of the Ummah, nobody has suggested any basis for unity, may I suggest that the Unity should be on the Kalimah Shahadah. All those who utter (believe) the kalimah are Muslims. Kalimah should be the base of Unity. Let us work on that for some time until some more suggestions come in favor or against it. Thanks. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 1:47am
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem Thank you for the wisdom you have provided. Especially infomation on the hadith that provides the promise that Allah(swt) will unite our hearts as one. Ive posted the hadith on the forum as part of a larger collection, From memory i think it was part of Imam Suyuti's book on the mahdi. Developing unity may be a challenge, but I hope I live to see it before Allah(swt) take my breath away. Insha'Allah.
Developing unity may be a challenge, but I hope I live to see it before Allah(swt) take my breath away. Insha'Allah. Unity wont be achieved by hegemony, "there is no compulsion in religion". not once in the entire history of man has there ever existed a society in which every single individual thought and believed exactly the same as every other individual this is not Unity. But many people from there own words [realising it or not] aim for such a thing when they speek about unity, not even in the time of the prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] did such a thing exist the shabah did not agree on many things, they had Unity and there hearts where one but as allah explains some people are given knowledge and understanding while others are not and you have people of varying degrees of intellect as well as simple human nature which is not perfect. Go back to the time of the prophet and you will see this is the unity they had, the sahabah each had there own level of understanding about the religion and disagreed and argued but they where closer to each other than real family. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 7:27am
| Rami your post is greatly appreciated. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 January 2008 at 7:48pm
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Why does it really matter? In Christianity most of us have come to understand that the different denominations hold the same basic believes, we just celebrate them differently. I believe that GOD loves diversity. Look at all the different types of people, flowers, animals, etc. HE made. Isn't the goal of Islam to be world-wide? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 12 January 2008 at 3:55am
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From the sectarian part of the reptilian brain from SWEETSWORDS 100 [ Nag Panchami ] ------------- awal |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 6:21am
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This is all that I can say about SECTS in Islam... Allah Said in the Quran: ��..and be not of A-l�Mushrik�n of those who split up
their religion (i.e. who left the true Isl�mic Monotheism), and became sects,
[i.e. they invented new things in the religion (Bid'ah), and followed their
vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it. � Quran 30:31-32 �My
followers will be split up into seventy-three sects; all of them will go to
Hell except one.� Someone asked:�Who are they, O Allah�s Messenger?� He (pbuh) replied:�Those
are the people who will follow my way and my Companions way.� (Bukhari and
Muslim) We can take a clue from those above basis, which way to go....GOOD LUCK  ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 6:29am
A great hadith that you provided. May we all follow our great prophet Mohammed (p.b.u.h) Salaam |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 6:33am
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May we all be guided, sister and not be among those who are misguided. Sallam Truth ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 2:25pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem Angel With no context sunnah means what you have said. �My followers will be split up into seventy-three sects; all of them will go to Hell except one.� Someone asked:�Who are they, O Allah�s Messenger?� He (pbuh) replied:�Those are the people who will follow my way and my Companions way.� (Bukhari and Muslim) From memory this reference is incorrect, there are many versions of this hadith but only one talks about hell and that is the weakest one, most versions stop at this ummah spiliting up into 73 groups...Allahu allam. If you look today there are more than 73 "groups", so its not our definition of a sect or group that counts but rasul allah's. How many people know what that is? ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 3:58pm
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Rami, their is still more I need to learn about Islam. I wanted you to share your knowledge on what Hadiths in your opinion should be followed. What I mean by that is that I'm introducing myself to the subject concerning Taqleed. With that said, I been trying to find out more about Sayyidina Rasullullah (Sallallahu alaihe wasallam), but as you stated, sometimes we come across Hadiths which are incorrect. How can I determine what is correct and what is not? I know I'm going a lil off subject with the original topic, but in a sense I think it relates.
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Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 6:27pm
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My desire to learn has brought me to the the study of madhhabs ( islamic school of thought). So I guess I kinda answered the question for myself as far as deciding which hadiths to follow. I will take the time to learn the basics of each and decide which one[ school of thought] is right for me. As the only muslim in my family( and a woman at that) sometimes it feel like I have a heavy weight on my shoulders. But I know the time I take to study will pay off, not only for myself but for my children, Insha'Allah. I found a previous posting on the subject of Madhhabs already on the forum. It's actually fairly new but I figured I should post the link anyway: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9985&KW=Four+Imams+of+Islamic+Jurisprudence - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9985& ;KW=Four+Imams+of+Islamic+Jurisprudence ( I hope the link works) hope the information will be useful. Salaam, layalee |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 7:29pm
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Assalamo Alaykum Rami,
you said from memory..I think brother we need to look into things first before
we conclude that it is weak. The Glorious Qur�an says: "This is my straight path, so follow it and do not
follow the[other] paths, for they will separate you from His path." (Soorah
al An'aam, the 6th Soorah, verse 153) The Prophet said: �All my followers
will enter paradise except those who refuse. They said � O Allahs apostle! Who
will refuse? He said �Whoever obeys me will enter paradise and who ever
disobeys me is the one who refuses it� (Bukhari 92: 384) Narrated by Abdu
Allah Ben Omar said the prophet (pbuh) said there will be a time come on my nation
like what happened to children of israel divided into 72 sects and my nation
will be divided into 73 sects all in hell except one.. 2565 in Termezi 'Abdullah ibn Lu'ayy narrated that Mu'aawiyah ibn Abee
Sufyaan got up among them and said, "Indeed the Messenger of Allah(SAW)
stood up among us and said,'Certainly those before you from the People of the
Book split up into seventy two sects and [the followers of] this religion will
split up into seventy-three sects, seventy-two of them in the Fire and one in
Paradise; that is the group[jamaa'ah].'" [Mustadarak al-Haakim] [Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 35; hadith 4579 ] The bottom line here is that in everything that we do we refer it to Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet. We stand in one name � ISLAM and deviation is not in our religion. Sister study the life of the Prophet and from there you can know many of his ways and deeds. I recommend "The Sealed Nectar". You can find it in www.sultan.org.
------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 7:40pm
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Sis Layalee: Sis, I admire your thirst for knowledge and I pray to Allah (swt)
that He (swt) further increase our desire for beneficial knowledge. I
myself did that research a couple of years back and still at it up to
now for we are ordered to search knowledge from the cradle to the
grave. I even read books that is considered taboo according to some
ulamas but in my search for knowledge I still went through it. It is my
firm belief that Allah Almighty will never lead astray anyone who is
sincerely searching for the truth. I am not easily satisfied by some
ulamas(scholar) explanation, I refer everything to the Holy Qur'an and the
authentic Hadiths of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). We are not parrots who
repeat every word his masters says, we muslims use our Aql(free will) and that is
what makes us different from the other religion. What
made me do this research was the hadith regarding those 73 sects
dividing this ummah and only 1 being saved in the Day of Judgment. So I
started reading books about all the different mahzabs and I was
surprised to see the differences between them. Each mahzab was accusing
the other mahzabs of infidelity. So how can we be sure that we are on
the right mahzab? We cannot choose among these mahzabs like we are
shopping for clothes and hope that we are on the right one. It is not
possible, ever, that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), deliverer of guidance for
mankind, left us with different traditions, ways, etc for it
contradicts the very purpose that he (pbuh) was sent amongst us. The
Prophet (pbuh) was sent to unite us and never to disunite this
ummah. There is only one (1) true sunnah, not 2, 3 or 4, and it is
every ones duty, responsibility to search for it is our hope for
salvation in the Hereafter. Anyway,
I came to one conclusion. We should not be divided into
mere sects. Let us all stick to the Holy Qur'an, the only book that
Allah swt promised us to be free from alterations, and the Authentic
Traditions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). May
Allah (swt) forgive us if we are wrong and, if we are indeed on the
right track, strengthen our resolve to stay on the Right Path. Aameen.
Wasalaam. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 8:01pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem sometimes we come across Hadiths which are incorrect. How can I determine what is correct and what is not? Most of the ahadith you would have in mind are not the ones which deal with fiqh issues but adhab or dua these you dont have to worry about unless you hear the hadith is either fabricated or severly weak [as apposed to simply weak] you can act and do what these ahadith state with out needing anyone to interprate/study/investigate anything for you. Works such Riyad as salihin or what you shouldnt do is try to derive Fiqh rullings from ahadith yourself this you dont have the qualifications for, areas such as fard and sunnah prayer and everything associated with it from its timings to wudhu or ghusl, fasting, zakkat, hajj, Umrah, inheritance....the things in religion which have to be done a specific way leave to those who dedicate there entire lives learning about them. you can learn about what it is a scholar does but unless you are prepared to go and study full time and become one your self you will make many mistakes. The whole point of the madhhab is that you are not following the work of one particular scholar but 1000+ years of Islamic scholarship, one generation of scholars would take the work of the previous generation and refine it correct it learn from it adopt it and apply it to new situations that have not come up before. At the same time you have to understand that at this point in time most of the work i have mentioned above has already been done except for dealing with matters that have not come up beffore obviously  I wanted you to share your knowledge on what Hadiths in your opinion should be followed. Sister i understand you mean this out of respect but i would appreciate it if you don't word things in such a way, you make me out to be a alim which i am not, i am not trying to sound humble in anyway but i truly don't like being referred to in such a way...khair insha allah. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 14 January 2008 at 8:41pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem Rami, you said from memory..I think brother we need to look into things first before we conclude that it is weak. If you can correct what i said br then i would appreciate it, as of now though you have not provided a reference from either bukhari or muslim. So I started reading books about all the different mahzabs and I was surprised to see the differences between them. Where they more numerous than the differences of the sahabah or the ahadith them selfs? if you dont know why differences exist then you are not capable of judging there legitimacy. Each mahzab was accusing the other mahzabs of infidelity. That is a mistake on your part, the madhhab is the work of numerous scholars throughout the history of islam there is no fiqh ruling in any madhhab [ie by all these ulumah] accusing any other madhhab of infidelity what you would have come across is the works of individual scholars at tumultuous times in islamic history. You will see this in the works of scholars especially in the last 200 years of the Islamic khalifah and if you study the works of the madhhabs properly you will find consensus on the acceptance of all four madhhabs and this is the majority opinion, "that we believe what we say is right with a chance of it being wrong" similarly "we believe the other madhhab is wrong with a chance of it being right" this has always been the Orthodox view among the madhhabs. So how can we be sure that we are on the right mahzab? You are forcing this into a black or white issue when it is not, if you study Fiqh at any in depth level you will see it can never be a black and white issue. If islamic law is based upon Quran and sunnah and the shabah themselfs disagreed on issues how can we ever conclusively say a disputed matter is right and the others are wrong with 100% certainty. There is only one (1) true sunnah, not 2, 3 or 4, and it is every ones duty, responsibility to search for it is our hope for salvation in the Hereafter. as long as we keep talking in these simplistic terms we can never see the truth nothing is black and white you have to deal with issues on an individual basis. Even in the time of the prophet they disagreed on certain matters, rasul allah himself would stay silent sometimes so as not to burden his ummah with to many laws like the jews where burdened. We should not be divided into mere sects. Should we be indaviduals then, each with our own version of the religion that we made up from our own study. If you consider each of the madhhabs to be a sect then you dont know what constitutes a sect in islam and thats the only definition that counts. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 15 January 2008 at 12:31am
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem This is a good work by Justice Shaykh Taqi 'Uthmani (Chief Qadi of Pakistan ). http://www.cometoislam.com/fiqh/legal/main.htm - - and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 15 January 2008 at 12:54am
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Assalamo Alaykum
Brother Rami, I wish to know more about what you think in this topic, in a more precise and concise one, if you would please? Can you please explain what is the real rule of those mahzab in Islam that most people asked us to choose which one to follow? Are they a form or part of the sects we are talking here? In what way they are acceptable in Islam?
Please provide Verse from
Quran and hadith to support your answer to make it more authentic. The prophet said: "I am leaving two things
among you, and if you cling to them firmly you will never go astray; one is the
Book of Allah and the other is my way of life." (Farewell Pilgrimage:
Muatta) I think the Prophet would not have said this in his last sermon if he thinks that an ordinary human like us cannot understand what was said in the Quran and Hadith. He never said to follow any other than those two, Quran and Hadith and his companions way. May Allah bestow us more wisdom and understanding to see the light of our deen..ameen. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 15 January 2008 at 8:16pm
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Thanks Rami and Truth_light for the postings. Even though I started the topic to express my desire to wish that Unity in Islam can exist, ironically their are obviously differences in opinions expressed in here . But I guess in a sense what takes place in this topic is a mini prototype of what actually exist in the 'Islamic world'- people have various ways and hold different beliefs on how they strive to remain on the right path. Despite differences, unity can still exist in my opinion. I think a prime example of that will be the four sunni school of thoughts. Even though they carry their differences and similarities they are united because their main purpose is to spread to others and bring a proper format of the sunnah. I personally find it a great blessing that the scholars handled such a challenging job. Can you imagine how life for a muslim would be if no one performed what the scholars have done?!Even if one does not follow a particular school of thought, we all still benefit from the mahzabs works. The pathway to unity is following the correct sunnah and to never let go of the message in the Quran. May Allah(swt)guides us all on the right path so that we will not be misguided. Salaam, Layalee
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Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 10:44am
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Assalamu Alaikum, The way we discuss here our differences in a sincere and honest manner while striving to achieve the pleasure of Allah can make a difference. The unity would come gradually, insha Allah. I have friends belonging to different line of thinking. I don't carry a title; however, I agree, as brother rami said, that unity of heart is paramount. I strive to remain Muslim while following Islam. May Allah guide us all. Peace ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 16 January 2008 at 7:27pm
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Assalamo Alaykum Wr Wb. Indeed Peacemaker, unity of the heart is paramount.. Allah is One and He loves Unity... ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:10am
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In context what would it be?
Thanks rami Do you know what Allah's meaning of sect is? maybe you have said but i've missed it. Your explanation of about unity is similar to mine, I like what you said. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:17am
fanastic point. We are all different. And there is so much diversity out there. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:56pm
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among the sahaba whom to follow Amir Muabiya and Yazeed or Amirul Muminin Ali Mortuza and Ahle Baith ------------- awal |
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:57pm
By the by i am no shia ------------- awal |
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 2:15pm
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by the by again in ISLAM there is only one sect in total sect in humanity is 73 INSHALLAH i will clarify it even further with SWEETSWORDS ------------- awal |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 3:55pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem wa alaikum assalam Brother Rami, I wish to know more about what you think in this topic, in a more precise and concise one, What i was referring to was actually looking into what it is the madhhabs have done in a more specific way so you begin to see that nothing is black and white. You seem to have read many works so you should have the prerequisite knowledge to understand these works. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/alalwani_usulalfiqh/ - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/alalwani_usulalfiqh/ In the English language this work is by far the most comprehensive, Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Islamic-Jurisprudence-Mohammad-Hashim/dp/0946621829 - http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Islamic-Jurisprudence-Moham mad-Hashim/dp/0946621829 Some relevant terms. Legal Methodology The discipline of legal methodology (usul al-fiqh) teaches us how to derive legal rulings from the primary sources of Islamic Law, such as the Quran and the prophetic sunna. It teaches us how to read the primary sources in an honest and unbiased manner to figure out what Allah Most High really wants from us. Legal Maxims The discipline of legal maxims (qawa`id fiqhiyya) teaches us the underlying structure and patterns of the rulings that have been derived from the primary sources. A famous example of such a maxim is, "Certainty is not lifted by doubt." Another example is, "Something obligatory is not left except for something else that is obligatory." These maxims are madhab-specific and are used by scholars to extrapolate existing rulings of Islamic law to apply to new cases. This extrapolation is a complex procedure that often involves the interplay of many different maxims. The mark of a mufti is his/her mastery of this discipline. [1] [1] Shaykh `Abdullah al-Lahji (Allah have mercy on him)--a famous Shafi`i scholar of this century--explained that the benefit of studying the the discipline of legal maxims is, "(1) To easily discover the the rulings of new situations that are not discussed in an explicit text. (2) To learn disparate legal rulings in the shortest possible amount of time ..." (Idah al-qawa`id al-fiqhiyya li tullab al-madrasa al-sawlatiyya, p. 7) by Shaykh Hamza Karamali from sunnipath.com Can you please explain what is the real rule of those mahzab in Islam that most people asked us to choose which one to follow? this article explains the role the madhhabs played in islamic history, http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm - http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm Are they a form or part of the sects we are talking here? In what way they are acceptable in Islam? They are not a sect, they are the main body of muslims that rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] instructed us to stick to. According to your assumption about sects any group regardless of what it is they are standing for [political, religious, human rights, animal rights, conservation, humanitarian aid.....etc] is a sect. I am a seeker of truth too, and I have been trying to reconcile the existence of this mahzab Reconcile it with what? the only people who have kept this religion together are our Uluma, politically we have always been divided. The madhhabs deal with Fiqh its sciences and how to derive Fiqh from the primary and secondary sources, if you learn what it is they did you will understand there is nothing to reconcile. As you know rasul Allah spoke about many things that where going to occur, Al-Nawawi listed three peculiar merits of al-Shafi`i: his sharing the Prophet�s lineage at the level of their common ancestor `Abd Manaf; his birth in the Holy Land of Palestine and upbringing in Mecca; and his education at the hands of superlative scholars together with his own superlative intelligence and knowledge of the Arabic language. To this Ibn Hajar added two more: the hadith of the Prophet, "O Allah! Guide Quraysh, for the science of the scholar that comes from them will encompass the earth. O Allah! You have let the first of them taste bitterness, so let the latter of them taste reward." Another hadith of the Prophet says: "Truly, Allah shall send forth for this Community, at the onset of every hundred years, someone who will renew their Religion for them." The scholars agreed, among them Abu Qilaba (d. 276) and Imam Ahmad, that the first narration signified al-Shafi`i, and the second signified `Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz and then al-Shafi`i. There isnt a scholar alive today who doesnt owe Imam Shafii for the work he did in Islamic law, Further what our Uluma have been doing for 1400 years every single legal system in the world is doing today. "Innocent until proven Guilty" is a principle of Islamic law, this is the foundation upon which modern legal systems are founded it is the Key stone if you like. that I should choose which mahzab to follow..Is it really an obligatory? The first was simply nasiha [advice], the second you have simply assumed for your self. It is not obligatory to follow a madhhab just like it is not obligatory that you become a sunni [ie believe in the Quran and the same Aqidah as the muslim ummah], follow what ever you like and in the akhirah you will see if you where on the right path. Its in that sence that people are advised to follow a madhhab. that Munkar and Nakir will ask you "Who is your Imam?" and what would be the answer to that? That sounds like a shia book, the three Questions are Who is your Lord, What is your religion and Who is this man that was sent amongst you, meaning rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam]. Or would it be that the teaching of those mahzab can only be as our referral? or are we treated as its "followers"? As i stated earlier the madhabs are the works of thousands of scholars not just one. Please provide Verse from Quran and hadith to support your answer to make it more authentic. this is an excelent article on the matter with many refrences from the quran and sunnah, http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhabstlk.htm - - http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhabstlk.htm The prophet said: "I am leaving two things among you, and if you cling to them firmly you will never go astray; one is the Book of Allah and the other is my way of life." (Farewell Pilgrimage: Muatta)His way of life means you follow his example not simply the black and white law. His example includes advice he gave such as "Tie your camel then rely on Allah", i dont have a camel but doesn't this advice also apply in other ways or is it a black and white issue which is only applicable to camel herders. Studying his way means we take the essence of the advise and apply it to our life or other situations not simply take its literal meaning as the "be all and end all" of the matter, this is how Islam is for all times. Mu'adh ibn Jabal states that when the Prophet (PBUH) sent him to Yemen, he asked: "what will you do if a matter is referred to you for judgement?" Mu'adh said: "I will judge according to the Book of Allah." The Prophet asked: "what if you find no solution in the Book of Allah?" Mu'adh said: "Then I will judge by the Sunnah of the Prophet." The Prophet asked: "And what if you do not find it in the Sunnah of the Prophet?" Mu'adh said: "Then I will make Ijtihad to formulate my own judgement." The Prophet patted Mu'adh's chest and said "Praise be to Allah who has guided the messenger of His Prophet to that which pleases Him and His Prophet." Is this advise only applicable to Mu'ad or to the people of yemen or something the Uluma can also use? This is the way he left behind for us not just specific laws but general advice that we can use and apply in our life in our situations which may not be exactly the same as they were 1400 years ago. I think the Prophet would not have said this in his last sermon if he thinks that an ordinary human like us cannot understand what was said in the Quran and Hadith. The Quran was compiled into a book by saydinah Uthman, the ahadith are a fragmented mess that have absolutely no chronological order and seemingly contradict each other in many places due to lack of context. They also seemingly contradict the Quran, how have you reconciled these points when you have come across them? Insha allah you see my point, br i would advise you to read the articles and if you can obtain a copy of that book it is a standard legal text. Angel, In context what would it be? To follow the way or sunnah of the prophet. Do you know what Allah's meaning of sect is? maybe you have said but i've missed it. You mean rasul allah's definition, there is no absolute certainty on who he meant in the hadith but the uluma have given a general criteria on what takes a person out of that one group as the hadith states and that is by having different Aqidah. Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974/1567; R.A.) defined the Sunni Muslims as follows in his book Fath al-jawad: "A mubtadi (innovator) is the person who does not have the faith (aqid'ah) conveyed unanimously by the Ahl as-Sunnah. This unanimity was transmitted by the two great Imam's Abu'l Hasan al-Ashari (d.324/936; Rahimahullah) and Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (d.333/944; Rahimahullah) and the scholars who followed their path." Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Haytami also said in his book al-Fatawa al-Hadithiyya (pg. 205): "Man of bid'ah means one whose beliefs are different from the Ahl as-Sunnah faith. The Ahl as-Sunnah faith, is the faith of Abu'l Hasan al-Ashari, Abu Mansur al-Maturidi and those who followed them. One who brings forth something which is not approved by Islam becomes a man of bid'ah."
Imam al maturidi and Imam Al Ashari codified the Aqeedah of the msulim Umah similarly to how the Imams of the madhabs codified its Fiqh. http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3809&KW=rami - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3809& ; ; ; ; ;KW=rami http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3808&KW=rami - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3808& ; ; ; ; ;KW=rami ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: The Guided One
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 5:44pm
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Asalamu Aleykum Warah Matulahi Wa barakatuh, Brothers and Sisters, there is only one true Religion of Allah which is Islam and the followers are called Muslims. We should Declare our Faith in Allah and believe his Last Messenger by saying La Ilaha ILa Allah Mohamadu Rasululah. anyone with a health brain will know that their faith is Islam and they are Muslim, and that sect has no place in our faith, I believe sects came from misguided leaders. I believe the problem of sects originated from following people with no true faith, who just memorized the Quran and the sayings of Our Messenger Mohammed Aleyhi Salam, be aware of the the ones with unsound judgments that just studied our faith. They claim of teaching true faith of Islam and call it different name other then Islam and call themselves Muslims. Do not they know naming our faith other then Islam and calling ourselves name other then Muslims will make create problem and divide the nation? as well us take us off the fold of Islam?. What ever you believe in, do not call yourself other then a Muslim, and what ever happens do not call your faith other then Islam. The key to unity is calling our selves Muslims, and Our faith Islam, if that happens we will find it easy to correct ourselves and guide each other to the correct path in practicing our faith, Remember the key to a true faith is Taqwa (Iman), Fear in Allah, and being sincere and loving Allah the most. Everyone who Believe in the oneness of Allah, his Messengers, his books, his Angels, the day of Judgment and Qadar (The timeless power of Allah to plan and execute his plans), should obey Allah. Allah orders us to offer our five daily prayers, pay zakat, fasting in the month of Ramadan, and Hajj (if we are able to). We are commanded to follow and implement the teachings of the Quran. The Quran teaches us to do good deeds, be sincere, honest, patient, kind, to learn/teach, avoid evil deeds, and to invite people to the faith of Allah, and to be a good role model for humanity. Brothers and Sisters, if we think deeply, we should not belong to sects of the misguided people, but we should belong to the religion of Allah (Islam) and be true Muslims that Submit to the will of Allah. May Allah guide us to the straight path, ameen. Asalamu Aleykum warah matulahi wa barakatuh. ------------- A. Suleiman |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 6:24pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem Assalamu alaikum jazak allah for your reminder but just to point out a fact, assuming this is what you are refereing to, the madhhabs deal with the Fiqh of the islamic Religion they are not a religion. An apple is a fruit while a tomato is a vegetable both belong to groups....you are mixing things up and condemning something because it simply has a title this is what it means when people say only call your self a muslim and nothing else. Can i call myself a human, a male, a arab, an Australian all these are also groups and titles even my Blood has its own group what do any of these groups have to do with eachother beside the fact they happen to be "groups" do you see what i am getting at. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: The Guided One
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 7:20pm
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Rami Asalamu Aleykum warah matulahi wa baraktuh, My friend, what I am saying is Our Faith is Islam and we are Muslims, We should not call our faith the name of a book /madhahb or a thought or after the name of a person. Let us not confuse Religion with nationality, tribe or gender. We are talking about faith here, if you are a believer in Allah, then your faith is Islam and you are a Muslim, We have no right to call our Religion other then Islam and we have no right to call ourselves other then Muslims in faith, if we believe that there is no god, but Allah and Mohammed Peace and (blessing of Allah be-upon-him )is His Messenger. Rami I hope, this is clear to you and to others now, insha Allah, thanks for the comment, It is always excellent to ask for clarity. Thank you, Asalamu Aleykum warah matulahi wa baraktuh ------------- A. Suleiman |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 7:39pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem Wa alaikum asslam If you think people name there religion after the names of people or madhhabs then you have seriously misunderstood and have made a serious accusation of kufr against these ulumah. Let us not confuse Religion with nationality, tribe or gender. Dont confuse the name of the religion with the names of the madhhabs IN the religion, this you have clearly done. We are talking about faith here, The religion is called Islam, We have no right to call our Religion other then Islam and we have no right to call ourselves other then Muslims in faith, The madhhabs deal with the FIQH [legal rullings] of the Islamic religion. Having wrong AQEEDAH is what takes a person out of the Islamic religion not having the wrong FIQH. Do you know what fiqh is? do you know what a Faqi is? do you know what a madhhab is? beyond it being a group of people...i am seriously asking these questions We should not call our faith the name of a book /madhahb or a thought or after the name of a person As i have shown you are confusing the name of the religion with the name of the Fiqh school in the religion these are not the same type of groups just like Nationality, Tribe gender are not the same type of groups. The haram and Halal of a matter are for Allah alone, you have no right what so ever declaring something Haram unless allah specifically declared it haram. What you are saying is that it is haram to label things in religion, where is your evidence for this new fatwah and who in the history of islam ever believed or even practiced such a thing. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 7:54pm
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I thought i mentioned that I have to go back
You mean rasul allah's definition, there is no absolute certainty on who he meant in the hadith but the uluma have given a general criteria on what takes a person out of that one group as the hadith states and that is by having different Aqidah. I got a bit confused, I was enquiring about what Allah's meaning of sect is. And here you talk about 'who he meant in the hadith' which i concluded is that there is no certainty on who Allah meant in the hadith. what is the contection between that and the meaning of what a sect is by Allah/God? I understood the the second part of the sentence, that there is a general criteria of what takes a person out of a group, and for which you provide two hadiths. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 7:57pm
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Actually a tomato is a fruit ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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perhaps you should use a carrot in the analogy Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 January 2008 at 8:14pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem tomato is a fruit  is that a Victorian thing? but you are absolutely right i didn't know that.http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutother/tomato - http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutother/tomato I was enquiring about what Allah's meaning of sect is. We only know what Allah said through his prophet [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam], while he was alive obviously no sects existed so the matter was not specifically addressed. But after his time....we know what you need to believe to be a muslim and what takes a person out of islam, imagine these as the two extremes of the matter. When you deviate from the Orthodox Aqeedah[i am assuming you know what this word means] then the particular group can be labelled as a sect. Those quotes i provided are not hadith but quotes from respected muslim scholars, just going back over what you said Allah does not talk about what makes a group a sect but in terms of "muslims" and "non muslims", rasul allah goes on to say in these ahadith that muslims will split into 73 groups, according to the Ulumah and shaikh Abdul Qadir al Gilani [another respected scholar who lists the 73 groups and i have read this list] Sunni's are the one group mentioned in the hadith. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: The Guided One
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 9:51am
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Asalamu Aleykum Warah matulahi Wa barakatuh, Hi, how are you Rami? please do not get me wrong here, I am just trying to say we are Muslims and our faith is Islam! we should not call ourselves other then Muslims and our faith Islam if we want to unite! I am not saying some muslims named their faith after their name and madhhabs, what I was trying to say is, it is wrong to divid the believers by calling themselves different names and asking their followers to name themselves, such as wahabi, bahai, alitahad, suffi, etc. when I said let us not confuse religion with nationality, gender and races, I was answering your question when you said People say let us call ourselves Muslims and Islam alone, and you said how about if I call myself a male, Arab and Austrilian? Well we were just talking about Religion, that is why I underlined Faith, religion, Islam, Muslim and Allah, Saying we can be whatever Allah made us of, any gender, nationality, and race, but our religion should only be called Islam and we should call our Selves Muslims in faith.
Ok, thanks for the clarity, what I also meant was having the wrong Aqeedah will take us out of the Islamic religion. Fiqh is Islamic law, and Faqi is legal officer of the law. Madhab is School of thought. Thanks for asking those questions. Once again All I am trying to say is let us be True followers of Allah and his Messenger Mohammed Aleyhi Salaam, We are Muslims and our religion is Islam.
You are correct the haram and halal of matters are for Allah alone, and I have no right whatsoever declaring something Haram unless Allah specifically delcared it haram. I said it is haram to name our religion other then Islam, and call our selves other then Muslims in faith. and Here what Allah says about this matter. Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. those who were given the Scripture did not differ except out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is swift in calling to account. Quran 3:19 All I am trying to say is let us be pure Mulsims and follow the teachings of Islam. thanks.
Asalamu aleykum warah matulahi wa barakatuh.
------------- A. Suleiman |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 3:48pm
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Assalamo Alaykum to All I don�t want to refute any one�s view because that is individual�s stand. We all have ours but one thing that is very clear to me. As long as we believe in the 6 Articles of Faith and we do the 5 Pillars of Islam then we are Muslim. Muslim only Worship One true God and following the Teaching of the Prophet (pbuh) as our daily guide. The Prophet (pbuh) left and told us in clear words...if you follow him you will be wise, if you don�t you will be the looser on that day when our deeds will be asked. When you follow the Quran and the Sunnah your religion becomes complete. In the Quran there are 2 things; to follow and not to follow; there is black and there is white and things that are in grey Allah told us don�t go into those, the more you go into those the more chances you will lose your religion and do kuf�r. It is our duty to understand the Quran, why it was revealed, when it was reveled and what was the reason only then can we understand the depth of that Surrah. We all have brains, haven�t we? Allah gave us all those not only the chosen ones. We all have the capability to seek, then seek we must. If you believe in the prophet and if you believe in what he preached then follow him to the dot and you can�t be wrong in any thing. Islam is so simple this people can�t understand. There was a saying that common sense is one sense that is not so common� these days due to vanity and haughtiness of some. If I am a respected scholar and I told the people, like what Saint Paul done to his people, that you are allowed to eat pork, will you go out and eat pork? It is like a blind man telling another blind man where the apple is located in the tree. The message I want to say here is, we don�t follow any human or any teachings for that matter, other than the teachings of the Prophet and the Quran. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: The Guided One
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 6:44pm
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Asalamu Aleykum Warah Matulahi wA barakatuh. Allahu Akbar, Truth light 24, your Message is clear and simple, We should not follow any human or teachings, instead we should follow the teachings of the Prophet and the Quran. As long as we believe in the 6 Articles of Faith and We do the 5 pillars of Islam then we are Muslim, One Ummah not two. The 6 Articles of Faith and the 5 Pillars of Islam will Unite us. Therefore let us Follow the teachings Of our Prophet peace and blessings of Allah being him and the Quran! "When you follow the Quran and the Sunnah your religion becomes complete." for those who do not know, The Quran is the words of Allah and the Sunnah is the teachings and the way of the Messenger peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. so please do not misunderstand, We are Muslims and we do not have any other faith but Islam, there is only one Islam and there should be no sects. Thanks.
Truth Light 24 Peace and blessing of Allah be with you, your message was clear, that is very simple structure of how the Believers should Unite ( The 6 articles of Faith and 5 pillars of Islam,The Quran and the teachings of the Messenger peace and blessings of Allah be upon him= Muslim). Thank you so much.
Asalamu Aleykum warah matulahi wa barakatuh. ------------- A. Suleiman |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 8:18pm
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Walaykum Sallam Brother Suleiman, Alhamdulillah!!!!! thats what I believe brother and in the deepest part of my heart i know...thats what Allah want me to believe. Allah will guide the heart of those who sincerely ask for His Guidance, sobhanallah!! And indeed brother, you and me and the rest of us are truly guided else we will not be doing what we are doing here...DA'WAH. May Allah grant us more understanding to know Him even better, ameen. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: The Guided One
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 9:25pm
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Asalamu Aleykum warah Matulahi wa barakatuh, Alhamdulilah, all praise and thanks are due to Allah, brother may Allah reward you for your Da'wah, and give us all wisdom, knowledge, forgive our sins and guide us to the straight path, ameen, shukran Akhi, Asalamu Aleykum warah matulahi wa barakatuh. ------------- A. Suleiman |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 9:30pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem it is wrong to divid the believers by calling themselves different names The believers are not divided they are all known by the same name Sunni muslims which has a meaning that requires you to think about and understand, do you have something against its meaning? The schools of fiqh represent the different interpretations of islamic law according to the sahabah and tabiin since much of the ijtihad we follow is based on there ijtihad and since you cant with any certainty say one interpretation of a sahabah is more right than the other you have no right to say there is only one understanding of the Quran and sunnah. The madhhabs have been the Islamic khalifahs legal system throughout history, each country has and needs its own legal system so to even challenge there existence is to challenge the Islamic khalifah system itself which every muslim on earth at one point in time was obliged by Allah himself in the Quran to swear allegiance to...."Obey those in authority" lest we forget the actual commands in the Quran. and asking their followers to name themselves, such as wahabi, bahai, alitahad, suffi, etc. It is clear you are confused, Wahabi refers to a particular fiqh people follow, Bahai are not muslims, Suffi refers to Tassawuf which has nothing to do with fiqh. None of these are of the same types of groups only Bahai is in the same category as the islamic religion becouse it is a religion separate from islam. I dont think you realise how confused you argument is br, im being sincere about this. Well we were just talking about Religion, that is why I underlined Faith, religion, Islam, Muslim and Allah, Saying we can be whatever Allah made us of, any gender, nationality, and race, but our religion should only be called Islam and we should call our Selves Muslims in faith. I thought i had explained to you that schools of fiqh belong to a different category than religion, your argument makes no sence what so ever if you understood this point. If i say i am a hanafi i am referring to the fiqh i follow not the religion or faith, how ever you understand this term. Fiqh is Islamic law, and Faqi is legal officer of the law. Madhab is School of thought. I didnt ask you to translate them for me but if you knew what they actually where, what is a school of thought? what does it do what is its purpose. Once again All I am trying to say is let us be True followers of Allah and his Messenger Mohammed Aleyhi Salaam, We are Muslims and our religion is Islam. And if i choose a particular sahabi to follow in my fiqh i am somehow calling my religion other than Islam. I said it is haram to name our religion other then Islam, and call our selves other then Muslims in faith. You are the one who referred this argument to the madhhabs not me so unless you didn't do that then your entire post has no relevance to anything i have said in this thread since no one called there religion other than Islam....so with respect i have no clue what you are talking about. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:28pm
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Assalamo Alalykum Wr Wb Prophet Saw said �All my followers will enter paradise except those who refuse. They said � O Allahs apostle! Who will refuse? He said �Whoever obeys me will enter paradise and who ever disobeys me is the one who refuses it� (Bukhari 92: 384) This hadith simply means that the criteria to gain the Mercy of Allah is through following the teachings of the Prophet and nothing else. Islam is easy if we will not make it hard. Allah never burden us when it comes to His religion. What He forbids means bring harm to us and what He commands can benefit us. As simple as that. So dont make it too hard on yourselves to lessen your confusion.. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 18 January 2008 at 10:33pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem I don�t want to refute any one�s view because that is individual�s stand. Dont ask people to make an effort and answer your questions if you have no intention of replying to the points raised. It is clear you have made up your mind about your beliefs and refuse to check if they are the truth, so clearly you are not a seeker of truth as you claim. Its ironic you call it my view when when they are the views held by the majority of Sunni scholars alive on this earth while what you say is nothing but your own personnel belief. I have provided nothing but quotes and references for my arguments and you still call them my personnel view. There is hypocrisy in your claims and you dont even realise it becouse you have decided to not seek the truth.....As long as we believe in the The 6 articles of faith and the 5 pillars of Islam are only known becouse of the work the scholars have done in identifying them otherwise all you would have in front of you is the Quran and thousands upon thousands of uncategarised ahadith in one huge big mess. If i was to put your advise to practice you would have nothing but anarchy in this ummah, your message is nothing but anti establishment. We produce some of the greatest minds this world has ever seen our cousins the Jews and Christians recognise there brilliance adopt the best of what they had to offer and here we have muslims them selfs declaring them kufar and munafiqs. Were the sahabah, Tabiin, Ulumah following anything other than the Quran and sunnah....maybe you should check what your claims actually mean or imply br you have made some very big claims. Have you actually read the Quran becouse there is a lot of grey in it, it all sounds good on paper until you actually bother and apply your own advice. Everything looks simple when your a simple person it takes an intelligent person/scholar to point out what you havnt seen. It is our duty to understand the Quran, why it was revealed, when it was reveled and what was the reason only then can we understand the depth of that Surrah. We all have brains, haven�t we? Allah gave us all those not only the chosen ones. We all have the capability to seek, then seek we must. Yes we all have brains some us are more inteligent than others, this is why some people are doctors, scientests, researchers some people lead and the majority follow... Allah himself commands us to follow those in authority, he even made it easy for us by saying he will guide somepeople so they in turn can guide us...but we should ignore that part of the Quran it doesnt fit into your over all message. If I am a respected scholar and I told the people, like what Saint Paul done to his people, that you are allowed to eat pork, will you go out and eat pork? It is like a blind man telling another blind man where the apple is located in the tree. Prove this happened even once in Islamic history your claims are nothing but paranoia and delusions, you are arguing against things that have never occurred.
The message I want to say here is, we don�t follow any human or any teachings for that matter, other than the teachings of the Prophet and the Quran. Muslims follow the Quran, Sunnah, Sahabah, Ahl al Bait, Tabiin, Tabi Tabiin these are all sources for islamic law. It may come as a shock to you but we only know the Sunnah through humans and not rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] personally. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 1:52am
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As'Salamu Alaikum, Brother Rami, i highly appreciate your posts and see that i do not miss them. But here, i differ your views and kindly request you to highlight the differences of the opinions of following post. I was explained by Bro.Abu Zaid, some time ago which i would like to discuss them here. 1. Muslims should be united : The Glorious Qur�an says: �And hold fast, altogether, by the rope Which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves.� [Al-Qur�an 3:103]
The Qur�an further says, �Obey Allah, and obey the messenger� [ 4:59] 2. It is prohibited to make divisions in Islam.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 2:00am
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5. All Four Imam said follow the Qur�an and Sunnah.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 2:11am
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7. Our Prophet was a Muslim No! He was a Muslim, like all the other Prophets and Messengers of Allah before him.
A true Muslim will not follow any ruling or teaching of any great scholar of Islam if that particular ruling or teaching contradicts the Qur�an and Saheeh Hadith.Thus, the only school of thought that a Muslim should follow, is that of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The only Madhab that a Muslim should follow, is the Madhab of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). And Allah knows the Best. This is what i strongly agree with. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 2:23am
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Sobhanallah!!! shukran Sis SeekHidayath for posting that. Alhamdulillah I am on the right path indeed. Because my common sense cannot buy it, to be a follower of a mere human being other than the Prophet astaghfirullah. We would be like Christian sooner or later, like saint Paul who make his own rulings. The only difference is, those imams didnt asked us to be their follower. They do those research for propagation of islam, in the name of Allah. But people make an innovation out of them, Astaghfirullah. May Allah reward you Jannahtul Firdaus for sharing that views, ameen. You just dont know the impact of that to me sis, only Allah knows. Thank you so much  ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 2:39am
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I do not know who wrote all that. It seems to be very good. I also agree with him as follows: 1. The top priority is Quran. i.e. the revelation (Wahi) from Allah to the prophet s.a.w.s. and that is the last book revealed. 2. Then comes in importance the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. i.e his Sunnah, which was from the very first day and continued throughout his life. That is the practical translation of the Quran which every one saw and followed, in large numbers, during the lifetime of the prophet s.a.w.s. That is what the prophet did. 3. Then comes in importance the sayings (Hadith) of the holy prophet s.a.w.s. in the third place. i.e the words that some people heard that the prophet s.a.w.s spoke at different times and some people heard it and some people passed it on to some few people of the Ummah. These sayings (Ahadith) were later collected, compiled and recorded in the books by various writers. Please let us have some opinion on this subject now. Thanks.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 5:54pm
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As'Salamu Alaikum, This question rises in every mind , as to which school of thought shud be followed, or is it necessary that we follow a school of thought etc. Even i were disturbed by these. So had to study over this subject for few months. I seeked help of those who are blessed with knowledge in Islam. Alhamdullilah, brother Rami too helped me with his posts. I pondered over his posts too. I very much respect him for his thoughts over this subject. Truthlight, as you are new here, let me tell you that we add up to our knowledge , the deep knowledge of bro. Rami. Kindly go thru his posts and we realise it. Here i would like to share what i cud learn from Brother AbuZaid over this subject, esp these questions that arise in us. There is nothing mentioned in Quran or Hadith books about concept of Imamate still this is acceptable?. There is nothing called concept of Imamate, this is shia concept. Imam's are just knowledgeable person and one is not at all complled to follow one of the Imam. There were muslims even before Imams are born and they were following Deen without Imam.
Here you have to learn the history of Imams.
After Sahabah, people used to learn ruling through their teachers and parents directly. Later when Islam expnaded in most of the part of world and more people devoted their lives to study Deen, due to expansion of knowledge and availability of vast number of Ahadith. Now some people obviously performed much better than others and people started recogonising their piety and expertise in knowledge. Many of them were students and teachers of each other. So, these were not only 4 Imams, there were many many of various degree. Imam Tabri and Ibn hazam were also well known Imams. These Imams and their students have many differences, but they consider these differences as acceptable under the framework of Ahlus Sunnah. Yet there were other knowledgeable persons who ignored Ahadith and understanding of Sahabh. They have been declared misguided by scholars of Ahlus Sunnah, they are opposed and made to vanish. Among those misguided people whose differences have not been considered acceptable are, groups like "Khawariji, mutazila, Jahmiya and most group of shiah.
Later as history progresses most people gathered on following these four Imams and followers of other Imams got absorbed in these four fiqh.
These four fiqh is not something appointed by Allah or Prophet PBUH. These emergence of four fiqh is a result of a historical process.
Later, as a result of decline of Islamic knowledge many followers of these fiqh got fanatic about their groups and developed stagnation instead of dynamism.
In short, what's wrong is their stagnation and fanatic approach not these fiqh itself. Ahl-e-hadith was a reaction to their fanaticism and stagnation in subcontinent. (unfortunately Ahl-e-hadith also have developed similar traits in their appraoch later)
Most deobandis and barelvis says, its compulsory to follow any of the fiqh. I don't agree with them. However, they have their justification. They says that if all scholars are given freedom to do their research, than their will be too much differences and their will be choas. Though, this justification is not totally wrong, its difficult for me agree with them. And brother Rami , what i feel belongs to this category.
Did the four Imams modify any aspect of Islam as regards to standards set by Muhammad(saw)?..
Prophet Mohammed PBUH, did not give us a list of law in a properly ordered and numbered format. We are asked to follow and obey him. Now, to follow him we have Quran, thousands of ahadith spread in many books. Now these Imams, for the ease of Ummah, extracted ruling from the Nusoos (Nusoos is plural of nass, nass means point taken directly from Quran and sunnah) so that everyone don't have to go through all the nusoos. And practically it was not possible for all the member of ummah to go through all the nusoos. Remember, Hadith is collection of saying and action of Prophet over 23 years and mainly last 10 years. Any ruling is subjected to understanding and perception of Sahabah. These Imams while extracting ruling, might have made mistakes. Because they are human and their ruling is also subjected to their own weaknesses, way of thinking and approach.
In short, we believe that they are not infallible but we also believe they were of very high stature in knowledge and Taqwa compare to us. Almost all muslims including Ahl-e-hadith have concensus that they delibertaly didn't tempered and altered Deen of Allah. They had same differences even earlier and you won't find any record that they or their direct students slandered each other, refuse to pray behind them or declared any of them misguided.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 8:32pm
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Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem Seekshidayath, 1. Muslims should be united : What kind of devisions are we talking about, there is no such thing as hegemony in islam and this is the type of unity this br is talking about, it is actually haram to strive for such a thing as allah was the one who created us into different nations "so we know one another" and created different people with different levels of understanding, a thing which inevitably will create diversity and devision. The sahabah them selfs formed different groups around prominant compaions some would take the Fatwah of Zayd Ibn Thabit while others would take the Fatwah of Ibn Abbas similarly the Tabiin scholars would prefer the opinions of one companion over another, please keep this in mind. The Glorious Qur�an says: �And hold fast, altogether, by the rope Which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves.� [Al-Qur�an 3:103] The type of devision Allah is talking about here can not be the type where it is haram to have different opinions on matters, if it was you may as well accuse rasull allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] himself of committing haram becouse his opinion sometimes fell short of Allah's on occasions, "abasa wa tawala" comes to mind. The sahabah differed in there understanding and this difference carried over into each of the four madhhabs one preferring one companions opinion over another. So br ask your self what kind of devision is Allah talking about. In light of what i just pointed out dont you also see the type of unity he is implying is an impossibility which has not been sanctioned or asked for in Islam ever. To achieve this br in reality you would now have to go through the entire corpus of evidence and judge which companions opinion was right and which was wrong and then force the matter on those who have a different opinion than yourself. Can this type of Unity ever be achieved, that we ignorant as we are correct the opinions of the sahabah who lived with the prophet himself and yet still differed on issues. 2. It is prohibited to make divisions in Islam. It is Haram to apply this as a blanket stamtent, can muslims divide into different political parties or different khalifahs for that matter, was Ali [r.a] committing Haram when he decided to go against muawiyah what about his two sons. No br it is only a type of devision that is haram. The Glorious Qur�an says:�As for those who divide Their religion and break up Into sects, you have no part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.� [Al-Qur�an 6:159] This verse does not reffer to the madhhabs as they all belong under the same group ie Sunni, so the br is confusing group types just like the other brothers in this thread where. In this verse Allah (swt) says
that one should disassociate oneself from those who divide their
religion and break it up into sects. Even by the English definition of the word sect a madhhab can not be labeled a sect in the Islamic religion. It is a misconception that a Muslim should follow any one of these four schools of thoughts i.e. Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali or Maliki. There is no proof whatsoever in the Qur�an or any authentic Hadith that a Muslim should only follow one of these four Imams. As for the first part of this illogical argument the "should" is simply nasiha [advice] no one has ever claimed it is wajib or sinful if you dont follow a madhab, but, what ever else you decide to follow other than these four [unless you can bring something equally accurate and correct] will itself cause you to err, can you provide another body of work on islamic law that you would advise people to follow. If i am now to receive the intellectually bankrupt argument of yes "the Quran and sunnah" i will ask br are you accusing the madhhabs of basing there understanding of Islam on anything other than the Quran and Sunnah? So the Question now becomes should i follow Expert legal opinion of the Madhhabs or my own understanding of the Quran and Sunnah. Your reading of the Quran and ahadith can only ever be up to your level of comprehension nothing more not even at the same level as the sahabah or rasul allah, otherwise you would be saying we are all born with an instinctive understanding of the Quran and sunnah that is never wrong. If you can see any other options apart from expert opinion or your opinion let me know. As for the second part of the statement....as it has never been declared wajib to follow any single individual besides the prophet there is no need for evidence from the Quran or sunnah. There is however plenty of advice in both the Quran and sunnah to follow those whom Allah gave knowledge to and guided, its up to you to decide whom he guided in this Ummah. Can you think of any other people who the entire ummah agree on besides these four imams? One can have no objection if someone agrees with the view and research of any one or more from these four great scholars of Islam. This is in stark contrast to the claim that the madhhabs are sects, these Imams didnt just simply leave a compilation of there fatwah lying around but a methodology of how to [or rather how they] derive rulings from the Quran and sunnah, if you truly understand what i mean by methodology [respectfully i dont think you do] you will automatically understand why we have madhhabs at all. Br you have brought up many points but i have decided not to reply to them until you have read "The legal status of following a madhhab" by Justice Shaykh Taqi 'Uthmani, otherwise we have no common ground to discuss anything, you may find it addresses many of these points you have raised. http://www.cometoislam.com/fiqh/legal/main.htm - http://www.cometoislam.com/fiqh/legal/main.htm - - ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 19 January 2008 at 9:29pm
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Assalamo Alaykum I do respect your knowledge so much so that I am tongue tied whenever you post something in here, Mashallah. But brothers what you are talking about here is soo highly technical so to speak that an ordinary person like me get even confused. Can we agree on one thing? That we are all Muslim regardless of what views individual holds? The final judge is Allah. Many has read all our views, opinions all supported by Quran and hadith. Lets other people decide which way they want to tread. It is Allah that guides each and every one of us. We are just His tool to make people know what Islam is all about. I want to share a hadith: "Abu Ummah narrated that Allah's messenger said "No one who has once found the right way, ever goes astray except throught dispute" Then Allah's Messenger recited this Ayah "They set it for you only by way of diputation. Nay! but, they are contentious people (Quran 43:58).." Tirmidhi 180 and Ibn Majah Abdullah bin Umar narrated "I went to the Prophet(pbuh) in the morning and he heard the voice of two persons who had an argument with each other about a verse. The Prophet (pbuh) came to us and the sign of anger could be seen in his face. He said: "Verily, the people before you were ruined because of their disputation in the BOOK" Muslim 6443 ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 12:12am
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The question of following any of the four mazahab is being discussed against following the Quran and hadith. Let us leave the Quran out of all this because every one is agreed on the importance of the Quran as number one, most important. The question then remains whether we should follow the fiqah of an Imam or we should follow the Hadith. That seems to be the problem under discussion. I know that in the time of the four Imams of the fiqah, there was no book of Hadith as we have today. They had just a few traditions with them. But they had something else which was much superior to those traditions. That was the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. that we call "The Sunnah". The time of the Imams was very near to the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. and Imam malik r.a was a great scholar of Hadith (traditions) too. He was a teacher of Hadith and a very learned man. Similarly for Abu Hanifah. He was very capable and pious person and a learned man. He was also a teacher of Deen when there were no books of Hadith. But Hadith is also useful and supports the Sunnah. The Hadith serves the Sunnah. The case of the Hadith people is very weak. We are all following the practical way of the prophet, from generation to generation, even without looking at any book of Hadith. Now coming to the gist of the matter. We all agree that we must follow the teachings of the prophet s.a.w.s. I would like to know, where shall we find the teachings of the prophet s.a.w.s. I said, leave the Quran out of this because that is agreed upon by all. So, after Quran, where shall we find the teachings of the prophet s.a.w.s. Please explain. Thanks. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 12:22am
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As'Salamu Alaikum, Brother Rami, i shall go thru that book insha-Allah from tomorrrow. Hope and pray that it adds up to my knowledge Minuteman, The question then remains whether we should follow the fiqah of an Imam or we should follow the Hadith. That seems to be the problem under discussion Minuteman, my point of discussion with brother Rami is, Is it necessary to follow one school of thought strictly ? Certainly, these fuqahas, followed sunnah. There's no controversy of it here. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 12:54am
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5. All Four Imam said follow the Qur�an and Sunnah. This statement is something that is self explanatory and it is only when taken out of context by those who cry foul to the idea of following a madhab. The context of the statement is 1) common sense as no great scholar would believe that his own personal opinion takes precedence over an established idea from an authenticated hadith 2) to students/other faqi who might come across something that brings some topic to light 3) this was not to lay people who have purchased their own copies of Sahih Bukhari or Muslim and have no scholarly training, or someone one doing their thesis at Medina University (I have �Salafi� books that use a PhD thesis as evidence that a great scholar was wrong)
This is one of the typical forms of chicanery implemented by detractors of scholarship. This sect will not give you the full picture on an issue (such as the misinformation on islamq&a concerning eid falling on jumma�) but will push their personal view, regardless of what the other schools of fiqh have to say, and will mislead readers into thinking that their view is �the view�, and everyone else is �wrong�. The above example is simply insulting to the scholars who do not agree with the view of the author. As if Imam Shafi was �ignorant� and we can all thank God for the birth of this recent heresy to set everyone straight. The following is an explanation about the topic so erroneously used in the example, as one can read, the example, as presented by the group, is misleading on a number of levels, and diverges from the attitude of the noble scholars of Islam. What is the basis of the Shafi'i ruling that touching women nullifies wudu? The well-known basis for our Imams' ruling that touching a non-mahram nullifies wudu is Allah's saying: �Or if you touched women�. Lexicologists have stated that "touch" (lams) can refer to touching with one's hand as well as to sexual intercourse. The proof [that it is used to refer to touching with one's hand] is: a) Allah's saying �They touched him (lamasu) with their hands� b) the Prophet's saying to the Companion Ma'iz upon confessing that he committed adultery: �perhaps you kissed her or touched her (lamasta)� c) the hadith �The adultery of the hand is touch (lams)�, in addition to other examples from lexicology and jurisprudence. In the book Al-Majmu', after mentioning the above, Imam al-Nawawi says: �Our companions said, and we confirm that [wudu' is nullified upon] all kinds of lams, whether the lams is by hand or through intercourse. Imams Malik, Shafi'i and their companions present as proof the hadith of Malik ibn Shahab Salim bin Abdullah bin 'Umar his father who said: 'A man's kissing his wife or touching her with his hand are both considered touch (mulamasa). Therefore, whoever kisses his wife or touches her with his hand, should make wudu.' And as you can see, this chain of narration is at the utmost limit of authenticity.� As for what the questioner mentioned regarding the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) kissing his wives, then praying, this hadith is narrated by Habib bin Abi Thabit Sayyida Ayesha (Allah be pleased with her). It is a weak hadith according to the consensus of the scholars. Imam al-Nawawi mentions in Al-Majmu': �In response to their using Habib bin Thabit's hadith as proof, there are two possible replies: a) The best and most well-known reply is that according to the consensus of the memorizers of hadith it is a weak hadith. Of those who rate the hadith as weak are Sufyan al-Thawri, Yahya bin Sa'eid al-Quttan, Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu Dawoud and Abu Bakr al-Neisabury, Abu al-Hasan al-dar Qutni, Abu Bakr Bayhaqi and other early and late scholars. Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abu bakr al-Neisabury and others say: Habib made a mistake between kissing while fasting and kissing while on wudu'. Abu Dawoud narrated that Sufyan al-Thawri said that Habib only narrated on the authority of 'Urwa al-Muzani (meaning that he did not relate from 'Urwa bin al-Zubair) who is not known. What has been rigorously authenticated is Ayesha's hadith that �The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to kiss while fasting.� b) The second possible reply is that if the hadith is rigorously authenticated, then it is taken to mean kissing with a barrier in between. In this way all proofs are taken into consideration.� - Amjad Rasheed (Translated by Lida Kahi) 1 What is meant here is the opposite sex. ������: �� ���� �������� ��� �� ��� ������ ���� ������ � ��� ���� ���� ���� ���� ���� ����� ���� ����� ��� ����� �� ��� �� ��� �� ����� � ������ : ���� ������ ��� �� ��� �������� ���� ������ ������� �������� �� ���� ����� : ( �� ������ ������ ) ����� : ������ ���� ��� ���� ����� ��� �� ���� �� ������ ��� ��� �� ��� �����, ����� ��� ���� �����: ( ������ ������� ) ���� ����� ��� ���� ���� ���� ������� ���� ��� ���� ��� ��� ����� ��� ���� ������ :" ���� ���� �� ���� ". ��� ������ ����� :" ����� ����� ����� " . ���� ��� �� ����� ����� ������ � ��� ������ ������ �� "�������" ��� �� ��� �� ���� :" ��� ������� : ���� ���� ������ ����� ������ , ���� ����� �������� ����� ���� ��� ��� �� ���� , ������ ���� �� ������� ��������� ����� ���� �� ��� ���� �� ���� �� ��� ���� �� ��� �� ���� ��� :" ���� ����� ������ ����� ���� �� �������� , ��� ��� ������ �� ���� ���� ����� ������ ". ���� ����� �� ����� �� ����� ��� ���� ". ��� ��� �� ���� ������ �� �� ����� ��� ��� ���� ���� ��� ���� ����� �� ���� ����� ���� �� ��� ���� �� ������ ����� ��� ���� ���� � ��� ���� ���� ������ ���� ������ ��� ��� ������ ������ �� "�������" � ��� ������ :" ���� ������ �� �������� ����� ���� �� ��� ���� ��� ����� � ( ������� �������� ) : ��� ���� ���� ������ ������ , ��� ���� : ����� ������ ����� �� ���� ������ ����� �� ���� ���� ���� ���� ��� ���������� ���� ����� ��������� ���� ��� ������� ������ �� ��������� ���������� . ��� ���� �� ���� ���� ��� ���������� ������� : ��� ���� �� ���� ������ ��� ������ �� ������ , ���� ��� ���� : ��� �� ����� ������ ��� ��� : �� ����� ���� ��� �� ���� ������ ���� �� �� ���� �� ������ ����� ������ ����� , ����� �� �� ���� ����� :" �� ����� ��� ���� ���� ���� ��� ���� ��� ���� ". ( ������� ������ ) �� �� ���� ��� ������ ��� ���� ����� ��� ������ ". ���
Similarly in practice, I claim to be a better follower of Imam Abu Hanifa than those who call themselves �Hanafi�. I claim to be a better follower of Imam Hanbal than those who call themselves �Hanbali�. I claim to be a better follower of Imam Malik than those who call themselves �Maliki�. If being a �Ahle-Hadith� means following Qur�an and authentic Hadith then I claim to be a better follower of the Qur�an and authentic Hadith than those who call themselves � Ahle-Hadith�. All these are mere labels (Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Ahle-Hadith) that are not endorsed by the Qur�an or the Sahih Ahadith. The only label or title given by the Qur�an and the Sahih Ahadith is MUSLIM. A �Hanafi� does not claim to follow Imam Abu Hanifa as a person, but follows the fiqh as derived by the methodology derived by Imam Abu Hanifa and further used by his students and so on. The name represents a valid methodology for deriving rulings from the primary texts. With this in mind, it may be concluded that the above statement is based upon blatantly erroneous assumptions by someone who is extremely ignorant about this subject. The troubling part is that the author is completely distorting the subject and leading people astray, and the author will be questioned about it.
This is another, extremely superficial conclusion drawn from a complete misunderstanding of the subject. This is very troubling. To say that I am a Maliki, is simply a term to denote that when I need a ruling from the primary texts, that I am taking my answers from one of the four legitimate sources that represents the methodology and scholarship that will give me the most �confidence� compared to trying to make a ruling on my own.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 2:31am
|
Bismillahhir Rahmannir Raheem Real and true Islam is based on the Book (Quran) and the Prophet�s Sunnah. These are the two sources of reference and precedent in each and controversial issue. Anyone who tries to find the solution of the disputed issue in some other sources except Quran and the Sunnah, according to Qur�an , is not true believer: �But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you( Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decision, and accept (them) with full submission.�Quran 4:65 None of them Imam urged to anyone to follow their Madzab, on the other hand all of them Imam advised: �Take from where we have taken� means follow the Quran and Sunnah. All the religious scholar of olden times who were considered to be the luminaries of Islamic knowledge, always brought evidence from Quran and Sunnah and they always urge the people to follow it and to take counsel from these two sources. Many of those Imams including those four famous Imams and so is Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim and other venerable religious scholars always warned the people against making innovations in religious matters. They always advised people to be careful and cautioned them
against following anyone except the sinless Prophet (pbuh), no one is sinless
except him, however pious and God-fearing he maybe. So, anything which is in
accordance with the Quran and authentic Sunnah is acceptable and anything which
is contrary to or inconsistent with the Quran and Sunnah will be rejected
altogether. Imam Malik said: �The views and
opinions of everybody may be accepted or rejected except his who is resting in
this grave.� While saying this Imam Malik pointed towards the grave of the
Prophet (pbuh)..Sobhanallah! All the religious scholars and Imams warned and prevented the people from mindless and blind imitation. Allah at many places in the Quran has rebuked such blind followers. History is witness that mindless and blind following of religious leaders and ancestors leads the people to infidelity. All of the Four Imams have said that it is neither permissible nor justified to give a judicial verdict based on their word or deed unless the reason behind that particular word or deed is understood clearly and completely from those two sources, QURAN AND HADITH. They have also elucidated: �If an authentic
hadith is found, then that is my madhab� This means, if an authentic hadith is found, their word is
repealed at once and has so significance before the Hadith; and their faith is
completely in accordance with that hadith, they (Imams) are MUSLIMS without labels. �Judge our words on
the criterion of Quran and Sunnah, and if you find our words corresponding to
the Quran and the Sunnah then, accept them, otherwise turn them down.� In other words, follow the Quran and Sunnah. Many of the sayings of later religious leaders, which were inaccurate, were attributed towards imams and their sects. If they had happened to see and hear those statements which had been referred and attached to their names, they would have not only disowned the statement but also disapproved of them strongly. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 7:58am
|
JazakAllah Truth light Brother Andalus, i shall not comment over your posts since those were your views over my post.But i was surprised to see the explanation of Imam shafi 's example. I shall look over it again insha-Allah. Sects do not come into existence merely because a person does Rafa Yadain and his friend does not. There are always some political factors or in most cases belief factors or indeed some extremism in cases where we should be lenient or that we are lenient in cases where we should be strict. Actually there are many: Middle East that includes Kuwait, Qatr, Bahrain, Palestine, Saudia etc. follow the opinions of Imam Ibn Taimiyah in the majority of their issues. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 8:45am
|
As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Masha Allah a very enlightening discussion. I disagree with anyone who says we must follow ONE Madhhab and I also disagree with anyone who says we don�t need the Madhhabs��
Yes we are instructed by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala and His Messenger (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) to adhere to the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah and we will not be led astray. The four Imams adhered to this principal and made things easy for the layman who wished to practice his Deen in the correct way. Till recently people did not have access to knowledge the way we have, so these Imams and scholars who came after them played a very important role in guiding people on Fiqh issues. Alhamdulillah we have the internet and research for us today is with a click of the mouse, but we only constitute a very small, insignificant portion of the Ummah. What�s about the other billions of Muslims who don�t have internet access how do they get their knowledge, how do they perform their duties in a way that is acceptable and according to the Shariah? Thru the Madhhab that is prevalent in their society or country, they have no other way. So do we tell the billions of Muslims that they are not on the Sunnah. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim!
I am totally against anyone calling themselves Hanafi or Shafi or the like���We are Muslims first and foremost and that is how Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala addresses us in the Glorious Qur'an � Muslims or Believers.
I want to point out that if any one followed any one of the Four Madhhab, they were on the right path. All four Madhhabs were on the Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam). When we find that something is Sunnah in one school of thought and not so in another, it relates to the Hadith that mentions it. If the scholars of one school graded it as authentic, then the practice is classified as a Sunnah or a duty, according to the nature of the report. The same Hadith might not have been known to the other school, or one of its transmitters is graded as unreliable and thus the scholar does not accept it. All this is subject to scholarly research. Such matters are normally questions of detail and not on the fundamentals of our Deen.
I also want to add that I always advise reverts to follow the Madhhab followed by the majority of the congregation in their local Masjid, so that at least they know without doubt that they are performing their basic Islamic duties correctly. Born Muslims like me who have found their way back to the true teachings of Islam are normally on the Madhhab of their parents, till we start our own research.
Once someone starts studying the different rulings that apply to Fiqh and other issues, then there is no need to follow any particular Madhhab and by extension, one is in fact accepting the rulings of the four Imams. But one only reaches this stage after many years of research and study.
On the other hand if someone truly studied the different aspects of Islam before their reversion then there is no need for such person to adhere to any particular Imam from the outset. Alhamdulillah this knowledge is a great blessing from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala.
Not everyone is blessed with such knowledge, in fact very few of us are, and thus the four Madhhabs play a very important and necessary role in Islam.
We must not forget that Islam is not only based on the Five Pillars and the Six Articles of Faith. Islam is a complete way of life.
Where do we get our information from��the Glorious Qur'an and the Sunnah.
Who preserved the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah���the Companions, then Tabi�een��.then the scholars till it reached us today.
Regarding the Hadith about �73 sects� I have also quoted this Hadith many times, out of ignorance, as referring to the Madhhabs, it was only after many months of research I realized that the Madhhabs are not sects. Unfortunately I still have not found a suitable explanation of this Hadith and what and who are the sects referred to by the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam). Like many issues there are many explanations but one thing I am now totally sure about and that is that the Madhhabs are not sects although many scholars say otherwise.
Unity amongst Muslims doesn�t mean discrediting, criticising or denying the work of our great scholars and their Madhhabs. Unity means accepting such differences as a Blessing and Mercy from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala.
May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala bless us with useful knowledge and unity as an Ummah Ameen!
Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu ------------- �Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165) "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 8:49am
|
As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
From what I know many of the scholars in these countries issue fatawa's according to Imam Ahmad, and I think Imam ibn Taimayyih also based his teachings on Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, something to check out. Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
------------- �Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165) "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 11:38am
|
No one has tried to address to my post properly. So, I am now asking about Hadith and Sunnah. Is there any difference between Hadith and sunnah please? It is being said, "Follow only the quran and Sunnah". What is meant by the word Sunnah? Thanks. We are discussing on the right lines. We need only to understand a few more things. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 11:49am
|
minuteman thankyou for this comment about hadith and sunnah. Yes please, can someone answer this for me too. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 11:50am
|
Part less Portion Say's Holy Prophet MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim Said from SWEETSWORDS 7 [ Gemini ] ------------- awal |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 4:17pm
|
Sallam Minuteman I have answered your question in other topic (how to seek knowledge) but for information of those who have not seen it, for the sake of Allah i will post it here.
*Sunnah is the traditions and practices of the Prophet(pbuh) that have become as models to be followed by the Muslems. It is a term used (in the religion of the Muslims) to express the custom of manner of life; the sayings or doings of the prophet. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 4:18pm
|
The practice of the Prophet(pbuh) as well as his sayings
form part of his teachings. And he is our role model in every deed that we do.
Yes it is true that the book of hadith came up years after his demised. Before
the compilation of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), Muslims that time has been
practicing 5 Pillars of Islam as well as knowing many jurisprudence and they learned
about it directly from the Prophet himself and not from any book for that
matter. This Book of Hadith is the compilation of all Sunnah of
the Prophet (pbuh) collected by many Imams; for an example are Imam Bukhari and
Imam Muslim. These Imams travelled to many different places gathering the
precious gems that fell from the lips of the Prophet (pbuh) from those whom
have heard or witnessed his sayings and deeds. It was told that Imam Bukhari
collected over 300,000 Ahadith and he himself memorized 200,000 of which some
were unreliable but he only chose approximately 7,275 with repetition and about
2,230 without repetition of which there is no doubt about their authenticity.
Imam Muslim however, collected 300,000 ahadith but after a critical study he
selected only 4,000 Ahadith. Accordingly, many religious scholars of Islam tried to
find fault (re-checking or re-proving) in the great remarkable collection of Imam
Bukhari but without success. It is for this reason; they unanimously agreed
that the most authentic book after the book of Allah is Sahih Bukhari. I also would like to thank you Brother Minuteman for a
very good question. I have learned a lot too from it, you made me do my
researched mashallah!!! May Allah accept all our effort because we do this for
His sake, amen. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 5:04pm
|
�But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you( Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decision, and accept (them) with full submission.�Quran 4:65 ............................................................ .............................
Side less Section Say's Holy Prophet MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim Said from SWEETSWORDS 7 [ Gemini ] ------------- awal |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 8:19pm
|
Bismillahhir Rahmannir Raheem Real and true Islam is based on the Book (Quran) and the Prophet�s Sunnah. These are the two sources of reference and precedent in each and controversial issue. Anyone who tries to find the solution of the disputed issue in some other sources except Quran and the Sunnah, according to Qur�an , is not true believer: �But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you( Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decision, and accept (them) with full submission.�Quran 4:65 None of them Imam urged to anyone to follow their Madzab, on the other hand all of them Imam advised: �Take from where we have taken� This is now sounding like a mindless mantra. With every reply that has been given to you by Brother Rami and myself, with every point given to you, with the numerous arguments contained in the replies of Brother Rami and myself, it is as if you have either been unable to comprehend what was given to you, or you have refused to reply to what was given to you. All you are doing is repeating yourself, which has now become a �mantra�. 1) No one has stated that one should follow other than the Quran and the Sunnah, the �primary texts�, or �sources�. So the above is a fallacy called a �strawman�. Please prove that following a madhab is anything but following the Quran and the Sunnah. I will repeat, in a condensed format, what has already been given to you which you have failed to address a) A madhab is simply a way to derive religious ruling. If you choose to use your own nafs, then that too is your madhab, a way to �obtain� a religious ruling. It is a foolish way, but it is still a �way�. b) A madhab means a method that one uses to derive religious rulings, hence to say I follow the Maliki madhab simply means that I adhere to the rulings that were derived with a particular methodology that is sound and accepted and gives �confidence� in being the correct in terms of adhering to the Quran and the Sunnah. c) The unity you speak of is found in the scholarly consensus that argue the existence of four methodologies that will bring a Muslim as close as possible to the Quran and the Sunnah. 2) Using a madhab to obtain the most sound judgments about the Quran and the Sunnah is no different than finding a top quality lens to view the stars in stark contrast to just using the naked eye. The scholars are trained �technicians� in every right who have studied at the feet of masters of knowledge that can be traced to the sahaba back to the prophet (saw). 3) To imply that someone who studies fiqh from a qualified fuqaha is not a true believer is �haram� and puts you in a very dangerous position. You are throwing around baseless assertions that have absolutely no merit. Of the statement, � None of them Imam urged to anyone to follow their Madzab, on the other hand all of them Imam advised: �Take from where we have taken� � This is another fallacy known as a non-sequitur. In basic English terms, it means �does not follow�. Your thesis that following a madhab is somehow not following the Quran and the Sunnah does not follow from your statement. This is because you have erroneously used the term madhab. I beg you to please read the points given to you, and study what the basic words of this topic actually mean and do not mean. Madhab simply means way, so what is the most accurate way? You are proposing something beyond absurd: You feel that you must be told to follow the most accurate way to Allah and His Messenger (saw)? Keep in mind, your view is something so out of place in this Ummah that no one would have dared consider this centuries ago. Such a person would have been deemed a fool for believing that following their own nafs while surrounded by qualified experts was somehow more superior. This is simply a non-sequitur and demonstrates that you have not actually studied the topic. Furthermore, given that there were more than four ways centuries ago, the Imams would not have told someone not follow another established school, because the �consensus� is that acceptable methodologies have the one thing in common: establish sound judgments from the Quran and Sunnah. Finally, �take from where I have taken� was to the students who were trained and were scholars in their own right. This is not permission for religious anarchy. Again, no one would have dared place such a statement so out of context as you have just attempted. No fear of Allah or respect of knowledge.
means follow the Quran and Sunnah. All the religious scholar of olden times who were considered to be the luminaries of Islamic knowledge, always brought evidence from Quran and Sunnah and they always urge the people to follow it and to take counsel from these two sources. Many of those Imams including those four famous Imams and so is Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim and other venerable religious scholars always warned the people against making innovations in religious matters. Rhetorical diatribe! You have just slammed down a very serious accusation. Please argue and show that following a madhab is an innovation. You invoke the names of scholars who would be ranked as mujtahid as examples of why you should not take knowledge from a madhab. This is erroneous, as it is their scholarly position that places them above you and me.
They always advised people to be careful and cautioned them against following anyone except the sinless Prophet (pbuh), no one is sinless except him, however pious and God-fearing he maybe. So, anything which is in accordance with the Quran and authentic Sunnah is acceptable and anything which is contrary to or inconsistent with the Quran and Sunnah will be rejected altogether. Imam Malik said: �The views and opinions of everybody may be accepted or rejected except his who is resting in this grave.� While saying this Imam Malik pointed towards the grave of the Prophet (pbuh)..Sobhanallah! This is a stawman argument that is founded in your utter lack of understanding of the topic. Following the Maliki Madhab does not imply or conclude that you do not follow the prophet. Please prove your assumptions. This is yet another assumption that you have blatantly smeared the thread with. I ask you to start arguing your position. It is also a non-sequitur, because this statement does not support your conclusion.
All the religious scholars and Imams warned and prevented the people from mindless and blind imitation. Allah at many places in the Quran has rebuked such blind followers. History is witness that mindless and blind following of religious leaders and ancestors leads the people to infidelity. Who is blind following? Yet another accusation thrown out without any proof. History is also witness that mindless ignoramuses who speak of matters that they are not qualified for.
All of the Four Imams have said that it is neither permissible nor justified to give a judicial verdict based on their word or deed unless the reason behind that particular word or deed is understood clearly and completely from those two sources, QURAN AND HADITH. So who has argued otherwise and how does this prove the stance of this Ummah for the last 1200 years? Another baseless assertion without any proof.
They have also elucidated: �If an authentic hadith is found, then that is my madhab� Who has argued otherwise and how does this disprove the consensus of scholars going back to the 4 imams?
This means, if an authentic hadith is found, their word is repealed at once and has so significance before the Hadith; and their faith is completely in accordance with that hadith, they (Imams) are MUSLIMS without labels. Who has argued otherwise? How does this disprove anything I have stated?
�Judge our words on the criterion of Quran and Sunnah, and if you find our words corresponding to the Quran and the Sunnah then, accept them, otherwise turn them down.� Once again, who has argued otherwise? How does this prove your thesis? I must now draw a conclusion that is evident from this rant: You are completely ignorant of this topic, and you should at least have enough intellectual honesty and integrity to fully study a position as best you can, especially about a topic as important as deen, before you make endless, baseless statements. You have ignored the points given to you by myself and Brother Rami, and simply repeated yourself. Your assumptions are based upon a completely faulty understanding of Islam and fiqh, and your comments are nothing more than regurgitated polemics from a heretical, sectarian movement. I ask you to have the courtesy to argue a position, and not just drop accusations that are extremely serious in nature.
------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 8:33pm
Assalam Aleikum Brother. I was replying to the material that you posted, and nothing was direct directly at you. Please do not take offense, as none was intended. My intent was not to show who was right or wrong as far as Imam Abu Hanifa, or Imam Shafi, but to show that there are two strong opinions, and both are valid and should be respected, and we should not tell those who follow a differing view they are wrong.
I agree with you and understand. My view is based upon centuries of scholarly consensus, which is that the best chance we have to obtain a ruling that comes from the primary sources, and the best ruling that can grant us "confidence", is to seek a ruling from one of the known schools of though that have established methdologies in place to derive ruling. No different from going to a surgeon for surgery, or a butcher for meat. There are some issues that the fuqaha have minor disagreements on based upon the ambiguity of a word, or an issue regarding a narrator in a hadith, that will not allow a universal consensus. As muqlid, we are allowed to seek knoweldge from those who know.
I would say brother, that the four schools are agreed upon due 1) the soundess of their methodology 2) that only four now exist
Ibm Taymiyyah is a highly contraversial figure who was regarded as an exceptional muhadthun, but dabbled in other areas of the sciences which cast doubt on him. His work was pretty mush buried and forgotten about, in fact, I do not know if there is any constant chain of transmission that goes back directly to him from any students. I do know that as a Sunni Muslim, I am not under any obligation to follow any of his fatwas or those of his student. The Islamq&a site loves him and I suppose those who love the site give him some kind of authority. Without the oil funds, he would never have become as known as he is. He is the loved gem of the Wahabi leadership prominent in the areas you mentioned. ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 8:35pm
What methodology do you use to discern between rulings? Keep in mind sister, that if you have obtained a certian amount of knoweldge, you are able to decide, the key word is "able", meaning "ability". ------------- A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 10:43pm
|
Brother Andalus, not at all. I did not take any of yours or bro Rami's post in a offensive manner. Infact i was checking my own knowledge. It was good to discuss and Poga's poetry in the midst Minuteman am sorry that i cud not answer your question as i was struck with this issue in my mind. Br. Andalus, i expected your comments regarding Ibn Tamiyyah, They are n't new Just clear me one more point, that they said that if any of their Fatwas or teachings contradict Allah�s word, i.e. the Qur�an, or the sayings of the Prophet (pbuh) i.e. authentic Hadith, then that particulars Fatwa of theirs should be rejected, and the Sunnah of the Prophet should be followed You did explain it but i did not understand. Can u kindly comment over this again more explicitly. As a common man, i would adopt that which i feel satsified and is easy for me. My heart would respond to one which i feel is close to Quran and sunnah. Suppose if i do not have key factor "Ability" and if my knowledge does n't support me, i would go for the one which i feel eases me and which is close to Quran and Sunnah. Anyways, that was what i cud present over the subject. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 10:46pm
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I must now draw a conclusion that is
evident from this rant: You are completely
ignorant of this topic, and you
should at least have enough intellectual honesty and integrity to fully
study a position as best you can, especially about a topic as important as
deen, before you make endless, baseless statements. You have ignored the points
given to you by myself and Brother Rami, and simply repeated yourself. Your
assumptions are based upon a completely faulty understanding of Islam and fiqh,
and your comments are nothing more than regurgitated polemics from a heretical,
sectarian movement. I ask you to have the courtesy to argue a position, and not
just drop accusations that are extremely serious in nature. Astaghfirullahul adheem! Am sorry but I can�t remember I did make an
accusation to anyone. I am trying so hard to avoid addressing anyone with
insult or harsh words. You know why? We don�t know who among us who has stronger
faith, that cries every time he/she perform salah, sincerely asking for
guidance. Only Allah knows the sincerity of each and everyone of us. We might
be too knowledgeable and confidence enough to look down on those who �are completely ignorant� and has
�less intellect� than us, but
wouldn�t you think that having that kind of an attitude is the most hated in
the eyes of Allah? Are you sure that the one you are addressing to is indeed a �complete
ignorant� and has �less intellect�? �And those who annoy believing men and women
undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin.� Quran 33.59 Hadith of the Prophet: "Allah has revealed to
me, that you must be humble. No one
should boast over one another, and no one should oppress another."
(Iyad b. Hinar al-Mujashi: Muslim) "Verily, Allah is gentle
and is fond of gentleness, and He gives to the gentle what He does not give to
the cruel." (Muslim) "Who are the
learned? Those who practice what they know." (Bukhari) Verily, the supplication
between the oppressed and Allah has no barrier.� Bukhari "O God! I complain to
you of my weakness, my scarcity of resources and my humilitation before the
people. O Most Merciful of those who are merciful. O Lord of the weak and my
Lord too. To whom have you entrusted me? To a distant person who receives me
with hostility? Or to an enemy to whom you have granted authority over my
affair? So long as You are not angry with me, I do not care. Your favor is more
abundance to me. I seek refuge in the light of your face by which all darkness
is dispelled and every affair of this world and the next is set right, lest
Your anger or Your displeasure descent upon me. I desire your pleasure and
satisfaction until you are pleased. There is no power and no might except by You" ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 10:54pm
|
Brother , Madhab can't be called secterianism. But some individuals among the followers of Madhabs make it secterianism. Some people love and associate with each other based on madhab and some people dislike each other based on Madhab. Your comments over this? Bro. Rami i did not read that book yet, expecting your comments over this point . May be if we stop disliking eachother's madhab, then shall we be united inspite of varying eachother. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 20 January 2008 at 10:59pm
|
In doing da�wah, we
should be friendly and show kindness in our approach. We should speak
good words and we should not insult people we are dealing with else we will
fail in our mission and that is to call the non-believers to the religion of
Allah. There was a hadith that said: �Allah forbids you NOT.
With regards to those who fight you not for your faith nor drive you our of
your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them for Allah loves those who
are just..� (Tirmidhi 4995 and Ahmad) Aaysha narrated that a man
asked permission to see the Prophet (pbuh) and the Prophet (pbuh) said �He
is a bad member of the tribe�. When the man entered, the Prophet(pbuh)
treated the man in a frank and friendly way and spoke to him. When he departed,
I said �Allah�s Messenger! When he asked permission you said he is from bad
member of a tribe, but when he entered you treat him in frank and friendly
way?�. The Prophet (pbuh) replied � Aaysha, Allah does not like the one who is
unseemingly and lewd in his language� ( Abu Dawud 4774) Abdullah bin Amr (RA) narrated that the prophet (pbuh) neither talked in an insulting manner nor did he ever speak evil intentionally. He used to say, �The most beloved to me amongst you is the one who has the best character and manners.� "Kind words and forgiving of faults are better than SADAQAH forllowed by injury. And Allah is Rich (free of all wants) and He is Most-Forbearing". Quran 2:263 �O you who believe! Be not like those who annoyed M�sa (Moses), but
All�h cleared him of that which they alleged, and he was honourable before
All�h. O you who believe! Keep your duty to All�h
and fear Him, and speak (always) the truth. He
will direct you to do righteous good deeds and will forgive you your sins. And
whosoever obeys All�h and His Messenger (pbuh)he has indeed achieved a great
achievement (i.e. he will be saved from the Hell-fire and made to enter
Paradise). � Quran 33:69-71 "Whoever is kind, Allah will be kind to him;
therefore be kind to man on the earth. He Who is in heaven will show mercy on
you."(Abu Daud: Tirmidhi) ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:45am
|
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem But then these claims... It wasnt a claim but a Question, you claim something when it hasnt been proven Yet the status of these imams in this Ummah is beyond doubt i dont need to claim anything about them. Actually there are many: Middle East that includes Kuwait, Qatr, Bahrain, Palestine, Saudia etc. follow the opinions of Imam Ibn Taimiyah in the majority of their issues. In the context of what i was saying br then no Ibn taymiyah does not count since he was a Hanbali Faqi and there is no doubt about this point, all his fatwah he derived from the Quran and sunnah using the Hanbali method [i.e imam Ahmads method] so he comes under the category of the madhhabs and not a scholar seperate from the madhhabs. All those countries you mentioned are essentially following the Hanbali madhhab regardless of whether they say they are Hanbali or not.then that particulars Fatwa of theirs should be rejected Who is the one checking if the fatwah contradicts a hadith, i have seen fatwa disproved becouse there existed a hadith that wasn't taken into consideration when the fatwa was being issued but when you read the hadith you think this has nothing to do with the fatwah at all its not even about the same topic....but then you read the Faqi's explanation of how this hadith negates the Fatwah and its a very technical point and you think subhanallah i would never have considered that. So its not about having a fatwah and all of a sudden we have a hadith which clearly says the opposite, these hardly ever occurs, you have to also consider the time you are in, this advice about finding ahadith that contradict fatwah is no use to us we are living 1200 years after the fact, 1200 years worth of scholars have already done this very thing you talk about so do you honestly think your going to find something they missed. But some individuals among the followers of Madhabs make it secterianism. This has been the case from day one, individuals as apposed to the madhhabitself. you see this especially with the corrupt khalifah's we have had but you have to keep something in mind the actual madhhabs them selfs had nothing to do with politics and completely avoided it. Go check in History and you will find many stories of Ulumah being tortured or killed because they would not give fatwah in favor of the khalifah. If you understand that the madhhab is the methodology [or rahter the Islamic sciences] and not the fatwah you will see how the madhhabs can never mix with politics but individual scholars can twist and make up Fatwah as they like for there own personnel gain no ever claimed corruption in politics never existed. ""The ummah's greatest achievement over the past millennium has undoubtedly been its internal intellectual cohesion. From the fifth century of the Hijra almost to the present day, and despite the outward drama of the clash of dynasties, the Sunni Muslims have maintained an almost unfailing attitude of religious respect and brotherhood among themselves. It is a striking fact that virtually no religious wars, riots or persecutions divided them during this extended period, so difficult in other ways. The history of religious movements suggests that this is an unusual outcome. The normal sociological view, as expounded by Max Weber and his disciples, is that religions enjoy an initial period of unity, and then descend into an increasingly bitter factionalism led by rival hierarchies. Christianity has furnished the most obvious example of this; but one could add many others, including secular faiths such as Marxism. On the face of it, Islam's ability to avoid this fate is astonishing, and demands careful analysis."" http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm - http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm Some people love and associate with each other based on madhab and some people dislike each other based on Madhab. Your comments over this? Bro. Rami You have to seperate the practice of humans from religion, Islam [the madhhabs] does not allow this in anyway and none of the great Ulumah have ever condoned such behavior. This behavior nowadays comes from what occurred to this ummah over the last 200 years, divide and conquer was the imperialist slogan at the time and we are still suffering from it, india and pakistan are a good example, the ahmadi movement another. ------------- Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness. |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:59am
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thanks for that. As for 'Orthodox Aqeedah', I know about orthodox but not Aqeedah. Do you have that list of 73 groups from Sheik Abdul Quadir al Gilani ? unless you have already, I have 3 pages to catch up. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
|
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 4:18am
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Brother Andalus, not at all. I did not take any of yours or bro Rami's post in a offensive manner. Infact i was checking my own knowledge. It was good to discuss and Poga's poetry in the midst
Baseless Basic Say's Seventy one JEW seventy two CHRISTIAN and seventy three MUMIN from SWEETSWORDS 7 [ Gemini ] ------------- awal |
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 4:33am
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For needs to burn for eternity We the fuel of hell the humanity We who disrespect our fellow men for mere reputation We buy the ticket to hell the JAHANNAM station ------------- awal |
Posted By: Jazmine
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 5:17am
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sobhan Allah! Poga......You explain it better, in a plain and straight words...2 sects, JANNAH or JAHANNAM... disrespectful men are like buying themselves ticket going to JAHANNAM, would be the fuel of hell? ------------- To Know is To Believe |
Posted By: imp87
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 9:06am
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I cant believe how some of you seem so dishonest or blinded in your approaches and do nothing but confuse people, you cover up your anti Madhab views with sweet words. It is so illogical some of you claim these great imams could be wrong, because they �said so�. Also I find it funny how people who argue against Madhabs or not in favour of them, also get there learning and understanding of the Quran and Sunnah from imams by relying on them. With the way you people make things to be, anyone can pick up a Quran and interpret things the way they want and wish to, or hand pick certain things of religion according to there needs and desires. Anyway I will leave it back to the pro�s, but check yourselves out, put your pride and ties aside, and I cant understand how a Muslim can have the nerve to criticize these great four Imams/Madhabs, I am sure they followed the Quran and Sunnah better then any of us. If you people have any honestly left, then stop confusing people or explain things properly not to confuse people without taking things out of context or making it seem like there is a fault involved when there is not. And thank you to the people who are explaining the importance of Madhabs properly. |
Posted By: Jazmine
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 3:46pm
|
Thats all imp87? You confused me even better. You should speak in plain words than being like those aboves. They speak too long and end up in one-insulting one and another. Trying to smart out others. Thats not sharing, thats not teaching. What they do is competition! Competing who among them is smarter than the others! ------------- To Know is To Believe |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 5:43pm
|
As'Salamu Alaikum, JazakAllah brother Rami, for that thought provoking post. All these discussions were very helpful to me. I thank all the members for there discussions in it. I feel my posts were mistaken by few of our members that resulted to post such. I shall not get down to there levels to reply them but yes, shall clear there misconception as they themselves got confused. I was n't denying the need of madhabs but to stick to one madhab strictly was my point of discussion. We were not crticising any of the scholars. No doubt that they followed Quran and Sunnah many times better than us. It would have been better if some points be discussed rather than posting in such way. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 6:43pm
|
Assalamo Alaykum Wr Wb. I have high regards to
those 4 imams, they really good mashallah, that I pray Allah would grant them
Jannah. I follow Quran and Hadith alone but for things that need clarifications,
we need the guidance of those 4 respected Imam�s studies to make that unclear
verse in the Quran and Hadith cleared and understood but respected as they
were, to be a follower is the thing I cannot label myself into. As they say Quran in itself is
very concentrated stuff you have to dilute it in order to understand and get
the full picture of it. You do that by going to the tafseer of the verses to
understand and get the bigger picture and for things that we still don�t fully
understand, for that we have to consult these 4 imam�s research. We should know
when the Quran was revealed and what was the occasion and why it was revealed
only then can one reach the depth and understand what ALLAH is telling us. In my case Brother, I know what I am
aiming for � JANNAH, and I already know which way to go (Islam)�..still we need
guide (Quran and Sunnah) to make sure that we will not stumble into a pit and
fall down (for way to Jannah is full of thorns and great trials). We need the
hands of those 4 respected Imams to help lead us the way (ONLY ONE TRUE PATH)
for us to reach our destination unscathed�that�s how I believe. You just
cant yank someone and push them to swallow what you believe, through insult and
haughty attitude. Just state what you
know because no one can make anyone understood a thing but Allah. I pray Allah would
help us in our journey and I pray after guiding us to His path, He will never
ever let us gone astray�.Ameen. ------------- And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59 |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 6:52pm
|
The discussions are leading to the two schools of thought namely the Ahle Hadith thought and the Ahle Sunnah thought. Seeks seemed to present the ahle Hadith teachings. Rami and Andalus has presented the Ahle Sunnah teachings. I have mentioned here that hadith is not sunnah. And Hadith comes after the Sunnah of the prophet s.a.w.s. Hadith is to serve and support the sunnah i.e. the practice of the prophet s.a.w.s. from the very first day. If it is understood that Quran is the foremost. Then important is the Sunnah. After that there is definitely the importance of the traditions (Hadith) written in the books. Then there will be no conflict. The four Imams were working on the Sunnah of the prophet s.a.w.s. keeping also in view the sayings of the prophet s.a.w.s. which were until then not collected and compiled. So they gave guidance to the common people about Islam. There was no major difference or mistake in their teachings. So please have the discussion in a friendly manner and continue. Give us your good opinion. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 21 January 2008 at 10:15pm
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ASSALAMUALAIKUM Can some one explain to me how many sect are there mentioned at the day of QIAMAH
surah 30:55-60 Al Rum
And at the time when the hour shall come, surah 30:55-60 Al Rum
The day Resurrection is set the sinners will swear: surah 30:55-60 The Romans (Ar-Rum)
But Ye - Ye Were Not Aware! surah 30:55-60 Al Rum (The Romans)
Some people believe that the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) does not have the power to intercede. The belief of the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'at is that the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is an Intercessor and that he will intercede on the Day of Qiyamah by the permission of Allah Ta?ala. Allah Ta'ala says in the Holy Quran: "Who is he that would intercede with him except with His permission. He knows what is before them and what is behind them." (Part 3, Ruku 1) The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) has been given the station of Maqaam-e-Mahmood. Maqaam-e-Mahmood is that point on intercession where all will praise and honour the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam). (Tafseer Khaazin; Tafseer Jalalain) The Holy Quran states: "It is near that your Lord may make you stand at a place where all should praise you." (Part 15, Ruku 9) The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said: "I will intercede for my Ummah until my Creator summons me, 'O Muhammad! Have you been pleased?' I will say, 'O my Creator! I am pleased?". (Durr Manthur; Roohul Bayaan) Hazrat Abi bin Ka'ab (radi Allahu anhu) reports that the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said: "On the Day of Qiyamah, I will be the Leader and Khatib of all the Ambiya (alaihums salaam) and I will be the master of their intercession. I do not say this out of arrogance." (Mishkaat Shareef; Ash'atul Lam'aat) The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) stated: "On the Day of Qiyamah, I will be the leader of the children of Hazrat Adam (alaihis salaam). I will be the first to rise from my grave. I will be the first to start interceding and my intercession will be the first to be accepted." (Mishkaat Shareef; Sahih Muslim Shareef) The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) stated: "The Ulema, the Hufaaz, and the Shuhada of my followers will indeed intercede on the Day of Judgment. Even the infant whose parents are Muslims will intercede." If, as some misled individuals say, that it is not permissible to ask the creation for assistance but only from Allah Ta?ala, then how will these above-mentioned beloved slaves help us on the Day of Judgment? This again is proof that it is not wrong to ask them for help in this world also! On the Day of Qiyamah, all the people will congregate and they will say among themselves, "We wish we could find some one to intercede for us in the Court of Allah Ta'ala so that He may give us comfort at this point." They will go to Hazrat Adam (alaihis salaam) and ask him to intercede for them. He will tell them to go to Hazrat Nooh (alaihis salaam) as he is the first Nabi that Allah Ta'ala sent towards the people on earth. Hazrat Nooh (alaihis salaam) will tell them to go to Hazrat Ibrahim (alaihis salaam) as he is the Friend of Allah Ta'ala. He in turn will tell them to go to Hazrat Moosa (alaihis salaam) as he is a special servant of Allah Ta'ala. He will say to them to go to Hazrat 'Isa (alaihis salaam) as he is the special servant and Rasool of Allah Ta'ala, and His Kalma and His Rooh. The people will then present themselves before Hadrat 'Isa (alaihis salaam) who will say, "This is not my job. Go into the court of Hazrat Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) who is a unique servant of Almighty Allah Ta'ala and it is through him that Almighty Allah has forgiven those before and after him." Then the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said, "They will come to me. I will ask for permission in the Court of Almighty Allah and permission will be granted. When I see Almighty Allah, I will make Sajdah and Almighty Allah will say, 'O Muhammad (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam)! Lift up your head, ask, request and it will be given, and intercession will be accepted'." (Bukhari Shareef; Ibn Majah) The Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) will then intercede. After him, the great Prophets and Saints will intercede. Those who say that the Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) cannot intercede, how will it be permissible on the Day of Judgment Alamin (humankind, the Jinn, and all other living beings), will be gathered upon a vast, white, featureless ground, under the intense heat of the Sun overhead. They will be naked, uncircumcised and crowded together to the point where some are submerged in their own sweat, as in the beginning of creation (Qur'an 21.104, Sahih Bukhari, book 55 "accounts of the prophets", number 656; Qur'an 5.117-118). The degree to which one is submerged in sweat depends on the extent of his or her piety and goodness. The faces of those who practiced good adab by following the Five Pillars of Islam in their daily lives are nadirah, shining and radiant, whereas the faces of disbelievers are basirah, dark, sad and frowning (Qur'an 75.22-24). Despite being unclothed the anxiety and fear of the situation will be so great that no one would think to look at another's nudity. The creatures thus wait to be brought before God for their judgement. Humans will be so fearful on this "day" that the prophets themselves will repeatedly address God with the phrase sallim, sallim, or spare, spare � that is, "spare your followers, O God," and followers of Muhammad during his lifetime who strayed from Islam after his passing will be engulfed in fire (Qur'an 5.117-118, Sahih Bukhari, book 55 "accounts of the prophets", number 568). Even the angels are fearful, as some hadiths state that on that day, Allah will be angrier than he has been or ever will be ............................................................ .......................... Those who follow Five Pillars of Islam in their daily lives are nadirah, shining and radiant, whereas the faces of disbelievers are basirah, dark, sad and frowning (Qur'an 75.22-24). HOW MANY SECT ARE MANTIONED ABOVE
------------- awal |
Posted By: imp87
Date Posted: 22 January 2008 at 7:29pm
|
Jazmine: You confused me even better. You should speak in plain words than being like those aboves. They speak too long and end up in one-insulting one and another. Trying to smart out others. Thats not sharing, thats not teaching. What they do is competition! Competing who among them is smarter than the others! Well Sister I do not see anything confusing about my post, I made it very clear what I meant, also I did not give any religious ruling or advice, so if anyone does get confused about my post, they should be sure I have no credit or capacity to teach or give such advice, especially on a matter like this. I am simply here to learn, I do not know where you got the competition and out smarting thing from. I do not try and I can not compete with people I am trying to learn from. Anyway, if I did confuse you or anyone I am sorry. Seekshidayath: I was n't denying the need of madhabs but to stick to one madhab strictly was my point of discussion You see, that is exactly my point is, you have been making it like a Madhab is something different from Islam, when it is not clearly not, that is why I said do not confuse people. If you do not deny the need for it, then I am guessing you will agree there is nothing wrong with the four? If not, then what is your problem towards a person following a particular one, strictly or not? Like I said would you rather have people mix and match things? Everyone I know, say they follow Islam and that they are Muslim, not anything else, so what exactly are you trying to prove I do not understand. But anyway I did not get confused, I simply plead that you do not confuse others. Before talking about the way I post you could start by going back to your posts and checking up on what you have said on a much more serious matter then me and you. Also I would be very happy, one day, if you tell me exactly, what level you are at, or what levels you are talking about :) If you are at such a higher level, then look again into my post and you will see all my points, simple and clear. Anyway, sorry if I have hurt anyone.
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Posted By: Alwardah
Date Posted: 23 January 2008 at 10:31am
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As Salamu Alaikum Firstly no one here is being disrespectful to the Four Imams, by saying that there is no need to follow just one Imam. This discussion about the Madhhabs will remain a discussion till eternity. Each and every one of us follows a Madhhab consciously or semi-consciously; by the fact that initially when we learn our Islamic duties, we learn the rulings of one Imam or the other. Then we start studying and make changes in our way of doing things and instead of hopping from one Madhhab to another we make the changes which embrace all the Madhhabs. This brother Andalus is the �ability� to decide to change and it is a Mercy from Allah. Does that mean I am not following the Sunnah? Insha Allah I pray not. Does this make us into Ahlul-Hadith and Ahlul-Sunnah? Why? Are not the Ahlul Hadith and Ahlul Sunnah the same? We cannot take a translation of the Tafsir of the Qur'an and Al-Bukhari and/or Muslim and say okay now I have enough knowledge I don�t need the scholars. Masha Allah these are very valuable books but are they adequate? No it is not adequate, because a lot of rulings are also based on the Hadith compiled by the other four Imams � At-Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, ibn Majah and An-Nasa�i. Brother Andalus you wrote
I follow all four Madhhab so I feel I have 4 times more �confidence� Brother Rami you wrote
I totally agree with you. A previous discussion on similar lines with brother Rami made me realize that even though people generally regard the Madhhabs as sects it is very sad that some �scholars� also regard them as sects. But my research also convinced me further that there is no need to follow just one Madhhab when I can follow all four. To me that is not disrespect but honouring all 4 Imams. That again is another personal view. Maybe Insha Allah I will learn something new from this round of discussion. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala bless us with useful knowledge and keep us on the path that leads to Jannatul-Firdaus Ameen! Wa Alaikum Salam
------------- �Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165) "Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |