Did he betray me?
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Topic: Did he betray me?
Posted By: mowgli
Subject: Did he betray me?
Date Posted: 22 February 2008 at 5:35pm
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Assalamu'alaikum sisters,
I've been lurking on this forum for the past few hours, masha'allah you all give excellent advice! I hope you can help me gain some perspective on this issue: I have recently divorced my husband through khula. It was entirely against his wishes, he has never wanted this divorce, and is convinced that we can make our marriage work, but I had lost faith in him after 1 and a half years of experiencing problems (8 months of that in marriage). I saw him recently, where he convinced me to give him another chance. I still believe that he will not be able to change, but I love him very much, and I know he loves me too, hence I wanted to give it one more try, for his sake. Just before he convinced me to come back to him however, he told me he had a 'fling' with a married woman that ended just a few days ago. He had been talking to this woman via email to get over me, and recently this woman had come back to his flat, where they kissed (he says SHE kissed him) briefly. At the time I was shocked, but didn't think too much of it, since he says the ISC had called him to tell him he was divorced a week ago. However, now, the more I think about it, the harder I am finding it to put behind me. I am feeling physically sick from what I think is a betrayal. I don't understand how he could love me as insanely as he does, and allow another woman to touch him. Even worse, a married woman. He has always had the strictest principles masha'allah, on things like this, but he says our divorce has left him wondering what is the point of holding on to his islamic principles, if the woman he was waiting for has divorced him. I called him to tell him I could not come back to him in these circumstances - he is distraught and making noises about ending his life, quitting his job (the woman he had a fling with works there). Am I being unreasonable? Can I put this behind me? He says he knows he made a terrible mistake, and that was why he called me the next day, crying. But that he thought we were divorced and there was no hope for us, and that he wanted to do anything to get over me. I feel ill when I think about them together. I believe him that it was no more than a kiss, but I am sure it was not as chaste as he says it was. If we really are divorced (I have not received any confirmation yet) then I suppose he has not betrayed our marriage, but I feel he has betrayed me. I want to get over this, but I don't know if I can ever trust him again. Does anyone have any advice for me, it would be most gratefully received. Jazakallakhair |
Replies:
Posted By: Aminah07
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 6:01am
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Posted By: Aminah07
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 6:11am
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Posted By: mowgli
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 7:47am
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Wa alaikum assalam sister,
Thank you so much for your comments, they have been invaluable. I too have questioned how I can stay with a man who lacks the strength of character to have avoided these things. Also, I have lost respect for him since he has talked about harming himself, and I have asked him not to emotionally blackmail me like this. He used to be such a strong upstanding character, I would never have thought he would break down like this. I do not feel the same about him because of what he has done, and partly because of this I am not sure that I can return to him with the same degree of respect. I also feel our relationship has been tainted with another womans presence now, even though I know he did not go so far as to have intercourse with her. This is the one thing I am not sure I can ever get over, but maybe the hurt of betrayal will ease with time. However, I thought that the remarrying thing was only true if you had had 3 irrevocable divorces? We have had only one. |
Posted By: Aminah07
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 11:10am
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 23 February 2008 at 12:24pm
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I agree with Aminah, you both need someone else to help you both work through these feelings and the relationship. now he acted irrationally to "be" with anothe woman in sort of what might be termed an "emotional" time.Actually this is quite common. Not that it is "right" but actually people react without thinking. Only you can speak for you. What is an additional issue is his "telling" you he will hurt himself. Now if he is saying that to get you to come back, that is emotional blackmail. And if not, then he needs help. Also seems that he is highly emotional (and they say women are more emotional!). His reactions sugges this or he is REALLY young. I think he need guidance irreguardless of the outcome. As his behavior for himself is not good. I have no idea bout divorce etc.. I'd seek an Iman or scholar's help.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: mowgli
Date Posted: 25 February 2008 at 12:57pm
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Sister Hayfa, you are right, he is a very emotional person. Unfortunately this
can't be explained by his age, he is 28 years old, and old enough to know better. Thanks for the help, I have contacted the ISC and have determined that we are not divorced until he signs the talaq nama. If he does not sign it, they will dissolve, but not annul the nikah. We have decided to go for counselling, although I am not sure yet that I can put this hurt behind me. Please pray for us, and especially for my husband. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 March 2008 at 7:26pm
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Quite a case. The threat of killing himself is the worse. If he could kill himslef for any reason, he could kill the lady too. That is a dangerous thing. Keep in mind. The Khula is equal to resignation. It is surprising why it is not effective until the husband signs it. Does it mean that the lady will be left hanging around unable to remarry until the husband releases her?? No. The authorities should pronounce the annulment of marriage and set the lady free. This case is not for any of us. It is up to the lady who is asking here. Only she can understand and judge the matter and jump back into the dream wagon. Nobody else can judge and advise. Whatever, the decision should be firm resolute and final. The last words of the lady are in favor of the person as she is calling for prayers for her husband..... whom it seems she has not discarded. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 March 2008 at 9:08am
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Sister I have a question (something a lot of women miss)..... If you divorced your husband and he had a "fling" with another woman how did he betray YOU? You divorced him and you in that lapse in your relationship was not committed to each other..... |
Posted By: mowgli
Date Posted: 05 March 2008 at 1:59pm
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Brother Israfil, its not about whether we were married at the time, or not.
I feel like he has betrayed me emotionally. He claimed to love me so much, how could he have done something like this with someone else? Even though I initiated a divorce (which was not completed, therefore we are still married, and were when he was with this woman), I could never dream of touching another man. The only thing I can console myself with is that he was desperate to get over me, and put this behind him, and that is why he resorted to an email and telephone relationship with this woman that he works with. He claims he felt nothing for the woman, and did not initiate the physical contact. I guess I am disappointed that he did not honour his feelings towards me. |
Posted By: sa92k2
Date Posted: 10 March 2008 at 2:56pm
| you cant change a man. or a woman for that matter. most of the time what you see is what you get. if you remarry thinking you will change him, forget about it. |
Posted By: mowgli
Date Posted: 10 March 2008 at 5:34pm
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I don't want to change him, but I hope we can understand each and respect
each other better, insha'allah. That would make all the difference in our relationship. He is a good man, and his intentions towards me and his family are always good masha'allah. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 March 2008 at 6:40pm
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Mowgli, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything to you here but, HE doesn't owe you anything. If you two are divorced and you both have consciously made that comittment to NOT reconcile what rule of thumb does it say that a man should maintain his feelings? Of course as humans its only natural that we sustain those past feelings of emotional attachment aftera divorce (or serious breakup) however regardless whether these feelings are natural does not necessitate that we should "honor" emotional ties. I personally think you are wrong to say that he should be anyway ashamed of having "flings" with other women. Now, if you both plan to reconcile and both made the committment to reconcile then its his duty to NOT go astray from such a committment, but if his attitude is haphazard and is not fully committed then you should not expend energy to an individual that is not 100% committed. He claimed to love me so Ok. Again if both of you made th joint committment to divorce and both of you are conscious of such a committment then there is no rule forcing either of you to maintain emotional ties. Even though I initiated a divorce (which was not completed, therefore we Both of you are bound by marriage only legally. Now, I'm not sure if you are telling us the entire story but unless you both plan to reoncile in the near future he does not owe you anything emotionally. For the sake of sanity if you both plan on not reconciling its best you go through the divorce because so many people stay married legally becase of not letting go or some stay married for the benefits of being married while the two members go out looking for inimacy elsewhere. If you decide to stay faithful to him for whatever reason is a personal choice you have made but if he has shown you that he is not full committed to you and has not expressed reconciliation then let it go. The worse thing to do is stay committed to an individual who does not want to be with you. Its better for you and your psyche to move on and find someone else worthy of you instead of maintaining this attachment with this person. *Note: I had to re-read my post and the author's post and passed over the remark made by the author: "He said SHE kissed HIM." When I re-read that I laughed. That type of intimate act involves conscious involvement unless they were conversing and she lauched foward surprisingly and kissed on the mouth. I think he should not be exempt for such an excuse that is typical guy move. LOL
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Posted By: proudmuslima3
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:35pm
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Asalamu Alaikum Sister Mawgli I was wondering how ru doing ? I will make dua 4u and ur husband. I understand how ur feeling and its very hard 4u i know. I sometimes want 2 divorce my husband 2 but i love him sooooooo much. It sounds crazy right? But Allah knows best and everything happens 4 a reason so just ask Allah 2 guid u and ur husband. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 4:35pm
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Assalamu Alaikum Sister: First of all, and I can't stress this strongly enough, Sisters need to know their rights in Islam. Otherwise you are at the mercy of whatever anyone wants to tell you, which may or may not be correct. I can recommend a book entitled: "Woman in Shariah" by Abdur Rahman I Doi, which is pretty good and touches on the basic subjects. Second, if you ask for Khul, and return your dowry or an agreed upon portion, then your husband has no choice but to accept the divorce. He is not asking for talaq, you have asked for the khul. Why does he have to sign anything? The khul is irrevocable. Once you ask for the khul, you are divorced. You do not have to wait for him to pronounce talaq three times, you don't have to do the khul three times, once you have asked for it, returned the dowry, it is done. He has no right of return. You can remarry, if you want to, but you have to remarry. You cannot just go back together. That being said, I can understand your hurt and confusion about what your ex-husband did. I can't think that "technically" he was unfaithful as you are divorced, but the fact that he could turn to someone else so quickly while professing love to you has to hurt. And it must feel like a betrayal. How can he love you and be with someone else? It doesn't speak much to his character or his principles at this point, but he is probably hurting also. But putting this sense of betrayal aside, perhaps you should look back to why you wanted the divorce to begin with. There must have been a reason, despite the fact that you love him. If the original reason has not changed, then why would you consider going back to him? Won't you just want out again? Since you are already out of the marriage, maybe you should take some time to get over this hurt, the loneliness and feeling of loss that divorce brings, and give yourself a chance to heal. Then you will be able to think more clearly and decide if he is really what you want or if you are just reacting to all of the drama and emotion. Salaams ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 6:48am
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Shasta's Aunt, Well said I agree women need to know their rights..this ties back to a lack of education for many, but mostly women. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: mowgli
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 12:25pm
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Salaam sisters,
proudmuslimah3, thank you for your concern. Shasta's Aunt, you were right, the reason I left him in the first place has not changed, and he has not stopped his destructive behaviour. I wish I had left things as they were, now I am going through the same threats to kill himself, involve my family, quit his job etc that I have already been through once. Please pray for me sisters, that I can come through this quickly, and that he can insha'allah find peace within him to put this behind him and start afresh in his life. He is a man with a lot of turmoil in his life. I have been doing tasbih for the whole day, in the hope that he will leave me alone, he has been calling me nonstop since yesterday, and I and his family are finding his behaviour and threats so so distressing. I really hope I have to strength to see this through, insha'allah! |
Posted By: mowgli
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 12:27pm
| PS I also wanted to say thank you again to Shasta's Aunt, you put a lot of things in perspective for me, which was what I needed, and you understood the feeling behind my original post. Salaams, and may Allah bless you and the other sisters for your kind words! |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 10:48pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
May Allah give you ease in your situation, and may He show the light of guidane to this brother who was your husband, ameen.
After having read the entire string for the frist time, few unrelated things came to mind. Hope you will not mind commenting on your string, since you have discussed this matter on a public forum.
I: Khula rulings are very different from talaq. There is no second or third chance in a khula. You are technically divorced in the first time, and cannot get back with your ex- unless you marry someone else, consumate that marriage, then terminate it. It is like this in islam to make us all understand the sacredness and seriousness of a marriage contract.
II: Having some experience with marriage can tell you that a marriage that is so young as 8 months old, has lots and lots of room for compromise and mending. And, every marriage has a potential to work or break.
However, if one is living in a bad marriage, one has only two solutions and no third. One, you change yourself, your take at things, your attitude to life in short fix yourself - and if you cannot do this, then know that it is close to impossible to fix your partner. Two, walk out of this marriage.
There is no third alternative.
Since you have taken the second alternative, now be content with it and find a new life. Masha Allah you mentioned you are turning to Allah for help in His rememberance. May He grant light to your heart, and show you a new way.
III: Please forgive me if this sounds dry :- To my understanding I cannot comprehend your being hurt by your ex-husband's fling.
He was the one who was left, despite the fact that he did not want to be left. You were the one who walked out on him. So in the first place he is the one who should be hurt, and very hurt, dear sister - please try to understand this. A young man, whose wife of 8 months has walked out on him, should he not feel hurt and lonely, and inconfident, losing control on his life - doubting himself, his personality ??
To my understanding dear sister, you left this man weak, and someother woman took advantage of it.
We can blame people for acting the way they do, but we cannot blame them for feeling hurt, and his circumstances made him feel hurt.
I am not condoning his reaction, all what I say is that I did not see in your posts any allowance for his hurt.
All what you should have concern for is the reason for your leaving him. You did not leave him for his fling, you left him before the fling. If that reason is still there, that is all what should have mattered.
secondly, after you left him, by your own choice, do you still want his feelings to be tied to you? if so why? if not, why are you hurt if he could not handle his hurt in a manner more poise than how he did? After you have left him, he can do whatever he wants with himself and his feelings ... is this not so? Why do you still want him to keep loving you the way he did when you were his wife? If this is not what you want, then why are you hurt?
thirdly, men dont love in the same way as women do. When a woman loves a man, he is the only person in her life. Men can love more than one - like it or not, this is how it is. They are allowed by Allah to marry more than one. We should not think they will love just one, but still have 3 other. They have the potential to love all 4 ...
Please don't think I am saying your ex loved this woman, I am only trying to bring this fact to your mind that love of a man towards a woman is not like that of a woman towards a man. Thus their expectations and our expectations are different.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 12:04am
Salaams Sister,
When I was younger I had a similar situation. It was so painful and confusing and all of the drama made me crazy. It wasn't until it was over and long past that I realized how lucky I was to have gotten out when I did. Hindsight has amazing clarity and I am just sorry I wasted so much time on such a person.
I am sorry that your situation has worked out this way, but Insha'Allah you will get through it and one day you will look back like I do and wonder WHAT were you thinking... You will Sister, trust me.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
mowgli wrote:Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 03 June 2008 at 4:16am
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"sacredness" denotes this is from God. Why then is divorce permissible? It's insane that in order to remarry an ex-husband or wife (?) one has to first go through a sham of a marriage, consumate it then divorce spouse before it's okay in the eyes of Islam to marry the one you really want to marry? Makes absolutely no sense. How do woman feel about this, er, rule? and how this rule come about?
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 1:49am
Hi there Mystical.
Yes Marriage is a sacred Institution, and in Islam. . . divorce is one of the things Allah likes the least. Does that make Divorce unpermissable . . .No. Because Allah knows that sometimes breaking up is necessary, inevitable and better for both parties. Thus by saying that divorce is disliked, what is meant is that it is the ultimate and last resort and couples are strongly encouraged to try and work things out before opting for Divorce.
That is why Divorce is permissable . . . sometimes, that is what is practical. Rather than forcing couples to stay together, hate each other, mess up the kids "until death do us part". They can release each other from a bad marriage during thier lifetime.
As for the part abt the woman having to marry/consumnate with another man before she can be remarried to the ex . . . heres the Islamic version:
The divorce between a couple occurs when either of them initiates it. HOWEVER both are still legally married, and bound in the contract for the next 3 (or perhaps 4, forgot) months/menstrual periods. They are not supposed to indulge in sexual activity though. The wisdom behind this 3/4 month period is to allow time for any possible pregnancy to show. AS WELL AS provide a mandatory period during which the couple may realize any folly, and decide to stay together. This provides an opportunity to make-up. If both decide to resume sexual relations, the divorce is void and they remain a couple. If they reconciliate, no new marriage contract is needed and they remain married. HOWEVER, they have lost ONE of thier chances to divorce. Thus this was the first warning.
If the SAME couple goes through a rough phase, and want a divorce AGAIN. They go through the same procedure . . .If they decide to go through the divorce, after the 3/4 mnth reconciliatory period, the marriage contract is null & void and they are free to marry someone else. If they AGAIN decide not to seperate and reconciliate AGAIN, they may do so during the 3/4mnth period without a new contract. After a divorce is finalized, they need to renew the marriage/nikah contract - with a NEW mahr/dowry. This time around, they have incurred a 2nd warning, and have lost thier 2nd chance to stay as a couple.
The entire episode can be repeated a THIRD time as well. AFTER the 3rd divorce of the same couple . . .Islam uses a no-nonsense and Stricter stance. This is the last chance, and the couple know that. If they DIVORCE this time . . .they shoould know that they will not be allowed to re-marry . . . because past patterns have shown this marriage has always been rocky from the start and has had 3 chances to work out. THUS. . . after a 3rd divorce between the same couple has taken place . . .they are NOT allowed to remarry. They have had 3 warnings to shape up before.
AFTER this . . . if during the natural course of time, they get married to someone else, and get widowed/break up again . . . THEN they may be allowed to remarry thier exes. HOWEVER . . .I STRESS that this has to happen in a natural way, as in a proper marriage. If a sham marriage is contracted JUST so the parties can remarry thier exes. . . it is considered Haram or Unlawful or a Sin. And Allah does not hold sham marriages as legal . . .and thier 'consumnation' is considered Adultery in the eyes of Allah. The pure "Intention" to marry is considered a major point for a marriage to be legal in the eyes of Allah.
WHY? you ask . . .this is a 'punishment' for the couple for taking divorce and marriage lightly and making a mockery out of it. This is to ensure that couples THINK before they take any hasty action. It also prevents ppl from making marriage/divorce a mockery by divorcing and remarrying again and again and wasting thier own time and resources, and ALSO the State's.
Howver, it is pertinent to note that Islam is being more tha lenient by allowing the couple 3 chances to work things out between themselves. This is because Islam goes out of the way to ensure that a couple stay together hence gives them so many chances. Why is it that ppl often completely IGNORE the leninency that Islam shows before it decides to take a stricter approach. How many ppl do you think will go through 3 divorces with the same person in thier lifetime? It is an anomaly, but Islam still makes room for that.
You ask what women feel about it. I as a muslim woman and somewhat tepid feminist feel that Islam's divorce and family laws are refreshing . . . and almost ALWAYS are in the woman's favour. Due to my post already exceeding length I have not mentioned the privelgaes Women get during Divorces etc, but I can post them for you later if you want.
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 12:39pm
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Chrysalis, Very nice answer..
Yes we do have many rights.. its interesting when you look at is from other perspectives what we DO get.. the PERKS of being female
 I ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 7:42am
Jazakallah.
It isnt easy being a female!!! But Islam is so considerate of the fact that Women have special needs. I love that about Islam. Infact, in MOST societies. . . being a woman is no laughing matter, it is Islam that gives us all the perks :)
For example, Islam puts all the burdens on the husband *yay* and Women don't have to work unless they WANT to. And the Islamic Motto for women "Whats mine is mine, and whats yours, some of it is mine too" hah. :p
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Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 8:20pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Subhan Allah, a very powerful and succinct response. May Allah reward you much!
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 1:21am
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Chrysalis:-For example, Islam puts all the burdens on the husband *yay* and Women don't have to work unless they WANT to.
This is a lovely concept, but practically doesn't always work that way. I have also heard many muslims here in the UK saying that British women like to work. This is also not correct.
Some sisters have to work to survive. It all depends on personal circumstances. ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 2:48am
And ofcourse like I said . . . there is absolutley NOTHING wrong with women earning/working . . .as long as they are doing it out of free will. There is also islamically nothing wrong with the woman being the breadwinner AS LONG AS she is doing it out of her own free will or has an understanding with the hubby. . . For women who are forced to work because thier husbands expect them to or are lazy lugs. . . All I can say is may Allah reward them (these wives). . . and He will surely not let thier actions go unrewarded (and He will also give the lazy-husbs wht they deserve)
I know that Islamic concepts do not always work IF they are not APPLIED. Which is why Allah tells the muslims to marry believing, pious partners. If women marry good muslims. . . they wont hav such probs (yes, I am aware good muslims r hard to find. . . Im just saying)
And unfortunatley nothing can be done about the not-working Husbands in a non-islamic state . . . but that does not mean that the problem lies with Islam . . .Islam is giving us excellent laws, but obviousley it needs to be implemented to work.
The Muslim States NEED to enforce these laws. . . and some are already doing so. If Im not mistaken, UAE financialy maintains families where the husband cannot work, so women can choose NOT to work. This law just needs to be applied more, thats all.
To say that the lovely concept doesnt work practically . . .it does. But you need to implement that law. . .like some countries already do. Just 'cz nobody is enforcing the law doesnt make it impractical. By saying that, one is suggesting that there is something impractical about the law itself . . .which there is not.
One should try and be careful they are not marrying a man who is just after a greencard, visa or the money. Though ofcourse, many women wouldnt marry such a man if they knew about him beforehand. . . still many do . . bcz they believe that being married to a no-good is still better than remaining unmarried. . (and no one can judge them). And it again stresses the foolishness of marrying a guy one has met recently, out of "love". The "love" of the woman may actually be "greed" for the man. This is especially a warning to our foreign sisters. Make sure you know your husband's intentions are honourable and he intends on maintaining you.
This can EASILY be ensured through a pre-nup contract . . .or simply, the NIKAH contract (You can put in any reasonable conditions you want, including restrictingv your husband to one marriage, and the husband has to agree to them, or negotiate with u before Nikah) . . .If the potential husband is reluctant to sign something . . . I hear warning bells. I am not at ALL saying that ALL men are like that. . .and one needs to wary of EVERYONE. Just men you cannot find anyone to vouch for, and do not know or have met recently before he proposed. And you dont have to worry about the validity of your nikah contract in the eyes of your foriegn law. Because a contract is a contract, and once signed NEEDS to be fulfilled. Simple legal principle.
(Btw, to those who may be thinking about the part of restricting a muslim man to one marriage in the nikah contract . . .if a muslimah feels she cannot share a husband, she can put forward her reservation b4 the nikah, and include it in the contract. Nothing wrong abt it islamically. The woman can put in as many securing clauses in there as she wants. And by agreeing to marry her/signing the husband is bound to honour his contract. I'll try find a refernce for this later, however this view is shared by Dr. Zakir Naik, and his views are always according to Sahih Hadith, Sunnah and Qur'an)
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 4:14am
hehe, have you read my other posts? 
btw, I didn't say anything about the woman being the breadwinner. Often both husband and wife need to work,especially if the husbands money goes back home to care for family members that don't work. Of course in Pakistan, women sit around gossiping and drinking tea dont they. What a shame they don't see life as it is in the UK. Perhaps then they would understand the 'real world' instead of their own insular culture. No offence intended, sister. Unfortunately, many see life in the UK as an easy ride.
Feel free to pm me if you want to know more  ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 6:57am
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Agian it comes down to perceptions..
Lots of women all over the world work, really in essence TWO jobs, in and out of the home. They financially have no choice. Either you are poor OR the place you reside in is tow expensive to live in without two incomes.
Yes there are some women who COULD stay home and work only at home and choose not to.
Some well to do women in Pakistan do sit around and drink tea.. so to speak, but really only the well to do. THat is only a small percentage of women there. Most women work, they work hard keeping the home cleanm and neat, or if they are villagers, collecting wood, water, feeding livestock etc.
I know a guy in US, whose wife spends all her time and work, he works also and does all the cooking and cleaning as well as picking up kids etc. She has made a choice to do the work she does.
So we can pull out all types of examples.... ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 10:26am
WHOA!!! Hold on there!
First of all . . .since I NEVER said ANYTHING abt British Women . . .NOR did I ever say they have an easy ride . . . Wht gives u the right to paint all Pakistani women the same way (as tea-drinking gossip-mongers)?
Perhaps u didnt mean to be offensive, but that hardly seems like a positive perception.
Do'u wanna know which section of the Pak women 'sit around gossiping and drinking tea'? A part of of the middle or upper class. You would be surprised at the number of working women.
You find them in the villages working in fields, or making handicrafts at home. Or you will find them working as househelp (OFTEN as the breadwinners might I add.)
MAJORITY of all teachers in Pakistan are WOMEN. Women have worked in the Parliament, as head of state . . . .our current Finance Minister is a lady . . .
They work in Madrassahs, and teach religion. They run NGOs. Btw again, the number of females compared to males in NGOs is higher in Pakistan. MORE women are principals of Schools and Colleges than Men.
Medical field. . .same story. And not ONLY as Nurses, as DOCTORS.
The ONLY feilds where I see a lack of women workers is as Engineers, Researchers, Taxi Drivers and .... will have to think of another field.
I come from a middle class background. . .and many of my female relatives have not had high-school/univ diplomas even. But I have 5 Aunts from both sides, and ALL have worked at some point on another. 2 of them still do. I know LOADS of women from all walks of life who work. . . I have a (sort of) grandmother, who is 60 plus, and STILL works . . .
To cut a LONG story short. Pakistani women are not the idle-minds you think they are.
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 11:28am
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Chrysalis,
Well, thankyou for putting me straight.
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 1:50am
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Salaams Sisters:
You have only to go to KIVA to see Muslim women from all over the world applying for microloans to help them with their small businesses. Many of these women are the sole breadwinners, even when married, and there are a large number from Pakistan.
While you are there you might ponder joining in. The loans are interest-free and once repaid you can loan the money again.
http://www.kiva.org/ - http://www.kiva.org/ ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 5:49pm
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Chrysallis you brought up a good point. Not to derail the topic at hand but sometimes a woman (and man) are compelled to work based off of societal circumstances.
I sometimes constantly remind people that society isn't how it was in 500 A.D. Even if you don't live in luxury sometimes its hard getting byb, like I said all of which are dependent upon one's arrangement.
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Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 8:41am
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Chrysalis, perhaps you would care to add police force in your list of duties where women are few
Since the string is being side tracked why not I just add a few points to that flow ...
In response to " there is nothing wrong with women working if they want to " Sisters, please consider ... our society has a divine set up. That was for the man to be the breadwinner, and woman the homemaker. When the roles are crossed, exchanged or shared there is something wrong with that - we like it or not. When women enter the workforce with men, they are forced to acquire qualities which are not contingent to her feminine nature. This affects the set-up of a family, which is at the unit level of our society. A woman who is (highly) qualified and is earning, holds a same or similar position as her husband in work force, is meant to be very independent in her thinking - this surely has an impact on married life, which in turn has an impact on children that is not always healthy.
I am not saying every marriage where both husband and wife are working is a trouble marriage, but I am saying today the value and fulfilment one should receive in marriage is deteriorating, and this is because of the exchange or mixing of roles of man and woman in our society.
Brothers, please, please, if you are able to, do not encourage or expect your wives to go out and "earn" for the family. There is nothing wrong in having a business, or a source of income for a woman, which is solely hers' but her primary role is that of "your follower" in the institution of marriage, where you are the head and the " leader of your flock". A wife is complementary to her husband, she is not his "equal". Any set-up that makes her compromise her feminity, will have an affect on the tranquility of marriage. So be the breadwinner, and make your flock give you the honor and respect you must receive for doing so. This is important for your happiness, and that of your wives and children. If you think you cannot maintain a standard of living you want to on a single income, then have trust in Allah, and do with less, till He opens ways of provision for you, but it is not a very good idea to meet a certain standards or living on a shared income. It will not be a source of happiness and tranquility in married life. Trust me, there are 101 problems when both are working, but life is too short, and in such a busy schedule - stressfull set-up you wont get the time to smell the roses.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 9:29am
There is much truth to this statement as a general rule, however I don't believe the issue is so black and white. How many of us are thrilled and overjoyed when able to find a female ob/gyn and not suffer the indignity of males fulling this role? The islamic society as well as families are in need of women for not just homemaker roles. Likewise, families would also benefit from more men taking an active role in homemaking chores. And Allah Knows Best.
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 1:25pm
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It is also a point that I have seen is that the men work many, many hours to support their families, sa living expenses are high, and the spouses don't see each othe much. With the changes in technology, people are not working short hours by any means. They often do not have time to spend with wives or children for that matter.
Take for instance you live in US, in some areas you have to wrk alot not just to afford the basics, but let's say you wish your child to attend Islamic school rather than public school? Or you have parents or family elsewhere to support.
I agree with Abuatisha, we do need women to serve women. We need women teacher, health care providers etc. Plus once the kids are in school, parent's time is different. There is nothing that says they cannot each or help people in other ways.
One thing is that many men ARE working hard tp support families. And people still need to learn and have services provided. And some women have the means, time and talent. For instance, I am teaching at the masjid summer camp. A good program for the kids for the summer.
I also think that women in the west who are at hope are quite isolated. Its hard to get together, and have friends as people are more spread out. Not like all the people are around you are Muslim. And isolation is not healthy. many women suffer from depression. And we women tend to "think" too much so its good to be active and involved
Un fortunately there are men who expect the women to earn money and give it to them. Its fine if for srivival to happen. But men should not expect or push their wives to do so.
Islam is about living in balance. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 7:54pm
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"I am not saying every marriage where both husband and wife are working is a trouble marriage, but I am saying today the value and fulfilment one should receive in marriage is deteriorating, and this is because of the exchange or mixing of roles of man and woman in our society."
I'm inclined to disagree-atleast the issue of semantics. I wouldn't go to the extent as to say marriages are deterorating I would say marriages are changing but this depends on the geographical location. The breadwinner time has passed and very few families are practicing it. Muslim professionals both men and women are in the workforce doing their duties and still able to have a viable family. I don't think a woman going into the field where it is heavily populated by men must attain male characteristics. This is false. If it is true I'd like you to specify in which occupation (if not all) are women to act like this.
As you all know because of my background and where I live a woman at least until she is about to give birth to my child has to work until our lives are stable enough where one of us can stay home. As one male speaking for myself, I have high academic standards which will get me in areas where I'll be able to make a very, gvery, very good living. But if there are Muslim women still stuck on the "I'm gonna stay home you take care of me bit" then obviously I won't choose them. Islam is about balance but its also about being realistic. We all live in different parts of the world. Our environments at least economically may differ and you can't suggest someone to pack their things up and move to a smaller town especially when their lives have already been established-it's not that easy.
Me personally I think a woman has more economical freedom in the workforce than at home. She doesn't have the burden of living under a man who supports her with essentials when she can provide her own essentials. all marriages don't always last so its important for a woman to at least be financially stable herself if she isn't already this doesn't even take into account the educational aspect of it. I'm sorry this is one area within Islam God and I "butt heads" but God knows my reasons and I hope sincerely he doesn't fault me for thinking the way I do. It isn't about disobedience, it's about survival.
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 10:44pm
La hawla wala quwwatta illa billah - 'No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to him....(39.67)� |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 14 June 2008 at 11:22pm
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Is it bad I say I butt heads with God? I'm sorry its a figure of speech. But then again why am I sorry for what I feel? |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 June 2008 at 7:42pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
I am of the view that a woman in marriage is required to have a certian temperament towards her husband, besides her roles, duties and responsibilities. These are very subtle, nevertheless weigh on the health of marriage. And these temperaments are a part of her feminity.
Example: 1. obedience to husband (in all matters except when he asks her to disobey Allah).
In our times one may argue it is not possible or correct ideally speaking, nevertheless a husbands expects to be obeyed, either due to his being the man or being the head of the family.
2. Puting his needs before others (herself, home and children) - manytimes in busy households this is undermined, because she is equally busy, working and tired. Women by nature have the tendency to care and comfort. It is missing in our homes and social set-ups where women are working.
3. to not assert herself as equal in many qualities - working women have the ability ot excel, and not every couple is able to handle this with grace - rather not every working woman thinks she may be stepping over her husband's sensitiviteis if she asserts herself in a certain ways.
I am not debating that a woman is going to lose ALL her feminity if she goes out to earn a living - but it affects her, when she is away from home for same number of hours as her husband, and is facing similar challenges of the world as himself she is not the same woman as one who spends her time in more feminine chores.
AbuAisha, I agree with you women are needed in certain areas, and we cannot debate absolutes. But again am sure when you say we need women in the area of obgyn, you dont mean every woman shld study this feild. This only means we need to make exceptions in certian areas - this does not mean as a rule all women should go out and work.
Hayfa, I agree we need to keep ourselves busy, but we do not need to keep ourselves "equally" busy. There is a big difference between the two. Joining the workforce like a man, being 50% provider of family's financial needs, are different from pursuing a talent or doing community service . When we choose to go out and work "like" men the balance is jeopardised.
Israfil, when I said marriages are deteriorating, what I meant was look at the future of most marriages in our times as compared to old. In US 50% of first marriage ends in divorce, the rate being higher for second and even higher for third marriages - this is from qualified discussions about the reasons for faliure of marriages.
Being financially independent somehow conveys the meaning that man and woman in a marriage are not one unit, they are seperate individuals. This is how people think today, and this is how they behave, treat each other. Theoritically being financially independent sounds great, but practically the great thing is when the husband provides and the family honors him for doing so -
Thus it is not a kind of manual labor which will make a woman muscular - rather it is the manner of thinking, her attitude, her temperament which is affected when she is earning, and it makes a big difference in how she handles her marriage affairs.
I may sound like a woman of 60s, but this I say after reading and researching a great deal on this subject. If you disagree, you have all the right to do so.
Still, I will say in our times the socials norms are wrong. We have lost quality life. We have lost the meaning of love and tranquility. We are losing very fast the meaning of a family, and a home. A home is where we sleep, and a family is those with whom we share this home. Family events are numbered and marked on the calender, which are very few - this is the life we live, and we think we are okay. Islam teaches us a balance, but this kind of lifestyle is far from balance.
Education does not mean a woman should have learnt a profesional skill. If one cannot live a descent living in a big town in one income - times HAVE changed, and they have dampened the meaning of life - love and tranquility that I mention. I am not giving a solution package, nor do I assert any absolutes, and you may disagree with everything said here, but we cannot give quality to lives unless we give quality to marriages - and this is something to be thaught deeply.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:03am
Well, since I was naming the career-areas of women in Pakistan, I can assuredly say that women can also be found in the Police-Force.
 And to all those who think women should not be part of the police-force, because it compromises thier 'feminineness' etc, then are you going to suggest we have male-police manhandling our female protestors and criminals? There are full-body searches required, handcuffing etc etc, I would not like to give the male-police a chance to 'grope' those females. Female Police are a necessaity especially in a muslim society where u dont want males manhandling women in public. With all due respect sister, there are points I disagree with and believe hold more of a traditional, cultural significance compared to an islamic one.
Sister, Islam places the brunt of the responsibility on the husband. That does not mean however, that if the wife is working the 'divine order' is disrupt! And there is nothing wrong with that! Those are personal, cultural opinions. . . not islamic ones. For instance: Hazrat Khadija, Prophet Muhammad's wife . . . was a businesswoman. And she willingly spent her money for Islam. The initial emancipation of slaves during Islam's advent were mainly due to Hazrat Khadija and AbuBakr's financial genorisity. Infact, it can be said that Hazrat Khadija was the breadwinner since being Hazrat Muhammad's employer, she earned more than him. Even after marriage, her income was more than the Prophet's. And alhamduliah they led a prosperous, long and happy married life, without the least bit of 'sensitivity' on Prophet Muhammad's part !
Does that mean that the reason a husband/father deserves respect is because he is the breadwinner? Does that mean, that when a man is unable to earn/work or is jobless that he no longer deserves the love/respect of the wife n kids? No! (Having said that, it does not excuse the lazy-lug husbands. . . )
And I think that the decision to survive on a low-income cannot be generalized, and it soley upto the couple. What if, in a case the husband is not capable of earning much, and as a result cannot provide certain provisions to his family? Its not fair to expect his kids and family to go without things simply bcz he cannot bear to see his wife earn more!!! (only if the wife wants to) we cannot ask ppl to survive on limited means, and wait for a Divine miracle to happen, when the answer is as simple as the wife working! If both are happy with the wife not working, Alhamdulilah. But if the wife wishes too. . . nothing wrong. You say that '..Allah opens ways of provisions'.. , who are we to say what the provisions are! Maybe Allah has made the wife a means and provision! Just like He made Khadijah a means of provision for the poor muslims of the time!
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:15am
Exactly! Abuayisha has a very valid point.
We need women to work, simply so they are able to serve women. Not only as teachers, doctors etc. Also as businesswoman. . . because I can expect a woman to know MORE about the needs of women and develop products for the female market compared to a man. Also as researchers, so they can better research of female-specific things/issues.
Also in the government, so they can help improve family-laws. . . Hazrat Umar often would consult females, on issues they were better aware of. One of the well-known instances is when he consulted his daughter, so he could make an appropriate law to have soldiers return home to thier wives after certain periods of time.
We need female ulema. They can better understand feminine issues and pass more female-friendly fatawa.
Female shop assistants, tailors,
I would also prefer to have a female personal trainer in the Gym.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 7:05am
As far as I know, the only point according to you a woman can 'disobey' her husband is when he asks her to disobey Allah. I dont think any muslim husband asks his wife to do shirk or expressivley disobey Allah. Hence, apart from that, is she ALWAYS to obey him? What about when his orders infringe her rights?
For example, some men order thier wives to serve thier moms-in-law and service thier families. (like cooking for the entire in-law house, despite the presence of capable ppl who can cook on thier own, ) now this is not an express order that asks her to disobey allah, does that mean she is bound to fulfull his every whim? In this case, replace the word 'wife' with 'slave'. For only is a slave supposed to follow the masters every whim. A wife is different, she has the option of saying no.
I dont think we need anymore pointers how women could be good muslim wives. This issue has been driven into the ground. . .
A husband is a grown man , an adult. His needs do not come before a child's. (Stop crying honey, I know ur hungry, but daddy needs to be given dinner first)
 And rather than drilling into the wife's mind, that ur husband's needs come before yours is wrong: She needs to adderess BOTH thier needs, depending on whose need has priority. It cannot be a standard rule i.e husband is first. Sometimes, the husband's need has to be adderessed first. . but sometimes, the woman's own needs may be more important. For example, if the woman is hungry, and her husband wants something. In this case, the wife's need come first.
Some women are not the 'perfect housewive' and dislike household chores, does that mean they are not feminine? Household chores are not 'feminine'. And are not only the woman's responsibility. The husband should help around the house, and that will not make him less of a man.
Prophet Muhammad would mend his own clothes, sew his own button, he would ALSO perform other chores around the house to help his wive's . . . there is mention that he would often sweep the house, and milk the goats (which was a feminine chore of the time). And if anyone was a 'Man' . . .it was Prophet Muhammad.
Hazrat Zainab would tan leather at her house and sell it, simply so she could spend the money in charity. . . because she wanted to perform charity off her own income.
Once, Hazrat Aisha was cross and she broke a bowl due to her hieghtened emotion. The Prophet simply smiled, picked up the pieces with his blessed hands and asked someone to go get another.
If Allah had meant this as a "Divine Order", he would not have given women thinking, analaysing skills or the skills to earn. He obviousley gave such skills to His female creations so they may be able to survive and not overtly-depend on the male for survival.
If the husband is not ok with her wife's excellance, thats his problem. . . and an issue that has a psychological/emotional basis. That is what needs to be adderessed, not banning the woman from working.
Again, it is an insult to men to suggest that all men are insecure about thier wives' capabilities. And besides, there is nothing to be insecure about! Allah made both man & woman a compliment for the other. If the wive excels in one field, perhaps the man excel's in another. Just bcz a woman has some capabilities does not mean she is she-man, she still needs her husband, for emotional support or sometimes to unscrew the pickle-jar or kill the rat
 There are so many things husbands-wives need each other for. I know a couple, where the husband is a pathetic driver, and is always getting into accidents, so he prefers that his wife drive , and she does so happily -but in all other aspects they are a typical man-wife couple. . ! I know another lady who is seemingly very tough and confident, and is the boss of her house, but whenever she sees a spider, or a rat, or a lizard, she screams the house down, and her husband has to be the knight-in-shining-armor who had to rescue the maiden-in-distress! A happy marriage is not about standard-stereotypes. . .its about mutual support and what works best for them.
Having said that, I hope I have not offended you. . . nothing personel, if you hold those views and they work for you Alhamdulilah !
I simply wished to make it clear to those interested, that those views were not necessarily based on Islam. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 10:22am
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Assalamu Alaikum:
Well, I am amazed that in essence there are still women who think they must dumb themselves down to men to keep harmony. Islam supposedly did away with this type of thinking 1400 years ago...
Not only was Hazrat Khadija the main breadwinner and a very intelligent business woman who could read and write, I suppose she had to hide these skills, Hazrat Aisha actually lead an army into war. She was also responsible for memorising 75% or more of the Hadith and often settled disputes regarding fiqh between the men.
The Quran states:
O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, Who created you from a single person (nafsin- waahidah), created, of like nature, his mate, and from them two scattered (like seeds) countless men and women--reverence Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.... (Qur'an 4:1)
"Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he/she male or female: you are members one of another..." If any do deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them. (Qur'an 4:124)
For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patent and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (Qur'an 33:35) O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (one who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Qur'an 49:13) The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His apostle. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise. (Qur'an 9:7) And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (2:228)
The degree is qiwamah, the maintenance of the family.
No where in the Quran does it state that women are less than men, subservient to men, that we are to treat men as closer to God, that we should show less intelligence than men, or that we are not equal in the eyes of Allah. In fact, the Quran makes it very clear that we are protectors of one another and equal in every way except the qiwam.
Sister Nausheen, I am usually in agreement with your posts but this time I am surprised. For someone who is obviously so intelligent I find it hard to believe that you feel a woman's intelligence or superiority over her husband in the workplace should be hidden. Didn't Allah give us our intelligence and command all Muslims, men and women, to seek knowledge, to learn.
Why would Allah(SWT) give any woman an excellent mind and great intelligence just to have her suppress it to please a man? If we were meant to be less intelligent than men, Allah would have created us that way and we probably never would have known the difference. To give us the intelligence, make it clear in His Word that we have been blessed with intelligence and are in fact to seek knowledge, and then to expect us to act st**id makes no sense and I see no proof that this is what Allah expects from women. I rather think it's an insult to that which Allah has created. Why wouldn't you want to use what Allah has given you to do something great and wonderful?
If men feel threatened by the intelligence that Allah gave women, or their equality, that is the man's problem. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 1:42pm
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And really it comes to how people raise their sons and daughters. If they rasie them both to be respectful to all, strong in faith, capable and to be kind then we have less of a problem. If they see the wife and husband respect and listen to each other, supprt each other, in essence be positive role models, they do will hold those same values.
If men feel threatened by the intelligence that Allah gave women, or their equality, that is the man's problem.
I agree. Allah endowed me with a wonderful brain. For me to pretend not to have it.. what kind of life is that... having to live my life falsely cause someone else has an issue with it.
Of course women should be taken care especially in child-bearing andearly child-rearing. That is the hardest job to do.. be at home with young children...
And what are womanly chores by the way? I have yet to figure it out.. and if I don't like cleaning a bathroom that makes me less "feminine?"
And we are each other's helpmate.. not a servant. And its about letting someone be able to make a final decision. But a good man is not afraid to consult his wife. And its not about NOT being obedient. Its about being treated with respect and dignity. There is a difference to being able to follow a good leader and another to be another person's doormat.
I am glad that there are plenty of men out there who appreciates not only the beauty of a woman but also a good conversation over the dinner table. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:04pm
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I am not debating that a woman is going to lose ALL her feminity if she goes out to earn a living - but it affects her, when she is away from home for same number of hours as her husband, and is facing similar challenges of the world as himself she is not the same woman as one who spends her time in more feminine chores.
How are chores feminine? How can you genderize household work? Of course it exist but for the sake of argument and being a devil's advocate I'd like you to explain this point if you can.
Israfil, when I said marriages are deteriorating, what I meant was look at the future of most marriages in our times as compared to old.
The difference between now and then is because in the past, American society was a lot conservative than it is now. Women were constrained more in the household with less opportunities than now. When women tried to work, they were discouraged and when they were working they were discriminated against and placed in jobs that were "feminine" making less-than equal pay to that of men doing the same job.
In US 50% of first marriage ends in divorce, the rate being higher for second and even higher for third marriages.
True. But what are the contributing variables to why this exist in the United States? Simply stating that its because of financial reasons is not enough.
Being financially independent somehow conveys the meaning that man and woman in a marriage are not one unit, they are seperate individuals. This is how people think today, and this is how they behave, treat each other.
This is an opinion which I respect but its not universally factual. I have friends who work independently and still maintain the mindset of a unity. Just because both the man and women work indepenedently does not mean they are in marriage seperate from each other. Some have the collective mindset of wanting to provide for the family. Perhaps your experiences are different than mine-obviously.
Theoritically being financially independent sounds great, but practically the great thing is when the husband provides and the family honors him for doing so -
I disagree and I do so on thr grounds of my cultural biases. I was raised with the philosophy that a man should help provide for the family. Key word HELP. A woman should value a man for who he is anyway not by the fact that he is able to provide for the family. Any man who is economically sufficient within himself can provide for a family but does he have the characteristics of being a good human being? I don't like the idea of man being the sole breadwinner because for some men, this is leverage to use against unsuspecting women. Some men like to throw in "I took care of you" bit...
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 7:38pm
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A very good discussion going in here
But i view similar to sister Nausheen. We do not read any stance wherein Khadeejah RA, moved out for bussiness. Unless and untill its a must to leave out for jobs, they can go for it. Else, home is her best place.
And regarding Ayesha RA, shasta's aunt, that was complete different situation. And we get to read there that she was in veil seated over a palanquin { i did not get an exact word for it} on a camel.
This thought of "Mine" and "Me" gets them {husband and wife} divided. Naturally, it does rise within them that its my money. Conditions are still worse when a woman earns more than her husband.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 1:55am
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A discussion in which I seem to gain one vote against so many ... well folks, my apologies if I take ages to respond, since my time here is too limited. Not trying to cop out, just the honest truth. I did not expect these many overwhelming responses, so please bear with me ... meanwhile feel free to add your disagreements (or agreements) if any ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 2:25am
True, we do not expressly read any instance which mentions tht Khadeejaj RA travelled for her business. . . but nobody is suggesting its a MUST for a woman to go out of her house. Especially today there are numerous opportunitites for women to work with thier home as a base (home-office, online businesses ) etc etc.
However we DO know that she operated in a male-dominant society, which required a lot of skills and determination and 'independence' on her part. Like Shasta's Aunt mentioned, she knew how to read & write, Subhanallah! Which MANY MEN of the time could not do! Out of Prophet Muhammad's sahabah, the majority could not read/write. . . there were a rare few who had those skills, and Alhamdulilah Khadijah RA was one of them!
Yet we do know that she had to professionally interact with her employees, mostly men. . . and she had a remarkable dignified reputation.
There were other Muslim Females of the time, who would venture out of thier houses to work as well! I forget the names, but there are mentions of them in the Ahadith. I think one of them was Zubair's RA wife (pl correct me if I got the name wrong), who would go with her husband to the field's and would carry water, so much so that the water-bag's strap would leave a mark on her shoulder.
The muslim women worked in fields, came to the Prophet & Hazrat Aisha to learn religion.
They attended Jihads/wars. . . and tended the weak and injured. Some EVEN fought in wars when they had to, some even fought with the pagans who tried to enter the forts/houses where the muslim women would be.
Hence it can be concluded that there is nothing wrong with women venturing out of the house, when they are observing Hijab. The only reason why women are reccomended to stay at home is for thier own safety and comfort. Hence when the woman's safety is not being compromised, she can definitley venture out. Gone are the law-less days of frequent wars. . . women can safely venture out now without ever having to come into contact with male-strangers or exposure to danger (cars)
We may come up with that now. . . But Islam makes a clear distinction between the 'Mine' and 'Ours' money. Islam clearly states that the husband has NO right to his wife's property or income. And if he thinks he has a right to it he is wrong. The ONLY instance when he can touch her Property is if she WILLINGLY of her OWN accord asks her husband to take it, or use it or share it. (thus, asking the wife to give it to him, and pressurizing the poor wife does not count, it has to be out of her own free-will. . . there are cases where the man's family ASKS the girl's family to forego the Mahr, and they have to due to social pressures. That is unislamic & wrong) The husband cannot/should not assume that he has a "right" to his wife's money. That is unislamic. Thus there is nothing wrong with the "Mine" concept when it comes to women.
Having said that, if a wife gives her property to her husband, or asks him to look after her financial affairs, or gives her husband a share in her property, there is nothing wrong with that. . .and may Allah bless her.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 2:48am
Subhanallah . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 2:55am
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Conditions are still worse when a woman earns more than her husband.
This is quite a broad sweeping statement..so in essense a woman should only marry men who have the capabilites of making more money then them? So if a woman in an accountant she should not marry a restaurant worker? Or a doctor should not marry a government worker?
I did not expect these many overwhelming responses, so please bear with me ... meanwhile feel free to add your disagreements (or agreements) if any
salaams Nausheen, guess it did.. lol I think it has to do with that it if often hard to peg down 5 billion people and say all women are and should be one way and men are and should be another way it terms of characteristics and such.
For instance we can say men should be strong. Well so should women. They need to make tough decisions, raise kids and deal with the tests given to her.
We say women are soft. Well so are men. How many women worry about "right" time to approach their husbands with an issue? We don't want to "upset" them. Are men soft and weak? How many men are told to be gentle with their wives?
I remember reading in Seasons Journal from Zaytuna institute. Aboyt, I forget her name, but she was in battle with Prophet (PBUH) and defended his life. I think in those times, most women were quite "tough."
And really, so many women back then would not be any measure be described as "weak" and "submissive." These women talked ot the Prophet (PBUH), asked him questions, argued with him. I think he liked an intelligent woman..
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 10:14am
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"Conditions are still worse when a woman earns more than her husband."
Hazrat Khadija not only earned more than the Prophet Mohammed, she was his employer. It did not seem to cause a problem in their marriage, even Hazrat Aisha spoke of the Prophet's love for Khadija.
I would venture to say that if a man has a problem with his wife earning more money or having more money then he has an issue with his self-esteem.
As for Aisha going to war in hijab, she was still commanding the army, hijab or not. Which should tell today's Muslim women and men that it is perfectly fine for covered women to be out and about and even the boss of men.
I wear hijab and the reason I wear hijab is so that I might move about outside of my home. The Quran says that believing women should cover in front of non-mahrem men. It does not say that women should be secluded or locked away. If you are observing purdah or were meant to do so, which is not from Islam, then there is no need for hijab and detailed instructions on the wearing of hijab would not have been necessary.
Sometimes it seems as though we are going backward instead of forward. Who decided that Muslim women have to be locked away, barefoot, pregnant, and ignorant? Certainly not Islam.....
Look at the bidah that is prevalent now: separate rooms at the mosque,(which prevents women from seeing the Imam), separate businesses for men and women, not allowing girls to attend school or women to vote, drive, etc.... None of this existed at the time of the Prophet, nor is it prescribed by Allah in the Quran.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 10:36am
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http://muslim-canada.org/prenuptial.pdf - http://muslim-canada.org/prenuptial.pdf "A careful reading of modern female theologians of Islam would cause western women to be impressed by legal injunctions more than 1,000 years old that, for instance, grant women legal rights to domestic help at the expense of their husbands. Three of the four Sunni schools consider domestic chores outside the scope of a woman's legal responsibilities toward her husband. Contrast that with US polls showing that working women still do 80% of domestic chores." |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:21pm
It doesn't matter what rights Islam gave women if men refuse to acknowledge them and women allow this by refusing to demand them.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 7:31pm
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Let's be clear here:
A man who is breadwinner does not mean a woman in Islam has more rights than a non-Muslim whoever has this kind of logic needs to rethink it....
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:07pm
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As'Salamu Alaikum, Sister {Chrysallis}, you quote Dr. Zakir Naik very much. Here are his words A women in Islam, if she wishes to work she can work - There is no text in the Qur�an or the authentic Hadith which prevents or makes it prohibited for a woman to do any work, as long as it is not unlawful, as long as it is within the preview of the Islamic Shariah, as long as she maintains her Islamic dress code But natural, she cannot take up jobs, which exhibit her beauty and body - Like for example, modeling and film acting, and such kind of jobs. Many of the professions and jobs which are prohibited for the woman are also prohibited for the man, for example serving liquor. For example working in gambling dens - For example doing any unethical or dishonest business - All these jobs are prohibited for both men and women. A true Islamic society requires women to take up profession such as doctors. We do require female Gynecologists - We do require female nurses - We do require female teachers But, a woman in Islam has got no financial obligations - The financial obligation is laid on the shoulders of the man in the family - Therefore she need not work for her livelihood. But in genuine cases, where there are financial crisis in which both the ends do not meet, she has the option of working Here too, no one can force her to work - She works out of her own, absolute free will. Besides the professions I mentioned, she can work in the house and take up tailoring, she can take up embroidery, she can do pottery, she can make baskets etc She is also allowed to work in factories and small scale industries in which, which has been designed exclusively for the ladies. She can work in places which have got separate sections- gents and ladies, because Islam does not agree with intermingling of the sex She can also do business, and where it comes to doing transactions, where it involves interaction with a foreign male, with a Na-Mehram, she should do it through a father or a brother or husband or a son And the best example I can give you is of Bibi Khatija (may Allah be pleased with her) who was the wife of our beloved Prophet (may peace be upon him) She was one of the most successful business women of her times and she did the transaction through her husband, Prophet Muhammed may (May peace be upon him) A woman in Islam has been given more financial security, as compared to the man. As I told you earlier, she� the financial obligation is not put on her shoulder - It is put on the shoulder of the man in the family It is the duty of the father or the brother, before she is married and the duty of the husband or the son, after she is married to look after her lodging, boarding, clothing and financial aspects of her. Now, coming to Dr.Israr Ahmed sahab. You must have heard him many a times over this topic. Last years , when he was in India, he clearlt explained, how it causes instability in a family and thus a society. I was searching for his words, but cud not get it. They were similar to sister Nausheen's explanation. What i say is, certainly, she got go out for jobs, but still home is her best place.. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 1:54am
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem, Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
I responded to the notion "There is nothing wrong in a woman chosing to work" and my response was there is something wrong with is idea ... Let me rephrase myself, in case someone has missed the point - there is something wrong if a woman choses to work outside her home. - and this does not mean everything is wrong with this notion. If one is able to detect any difference between something wrong and everything wrong it should be borne in mind - as it will help us allow flexibility in conversation.
As for Quranic injunctions - may I ask a rehtorical question to all of you. Does Islam say that work outside her home is obligatory for woman? Is it a recommended sunnah for a woman? Is it a praiseworthy act for a woman?
When we are to consider that there is something wrong in her chosing to work does this mean it is haram for her to work? Does this mean it is blameworthy for her to work? Does this mean it is prohibitably disliked for her to work?
To the best of my understanding an answer to all of the above is a NO.
The only fiqh ruling that can apply on her working outside her home is that it is "permissible". What is a permissible act in our sharia? A lose definition may be - any action that does not entail any blame for leaving, nor does it earn any reward for performing, however it becomes rewarding when started with a noble intention.
Her marital right is that she may be fed, clothed and sheltered in kindness. - Thus Islam makes it obligatory for a man to take responsibility of all her needs. Our religious traditions (ahadith) instruct the father or the guardian to marry her into a family that has social and financial status ssimilar to her own.
These obligations on the father/guardian and the husband relieve her of the "responsibility"of working to earn a living, to run the house, or to be the breadwinner. And if she "chooses" to work - there is no blame on her, it is "permissible" for her to do so. I hope we all agree so far?
Islam says that the best and the first teacher for a child is his/her mother (till the age or 6). - Does this have any "subtle" message?? Does it say that a mother is demanded at home for the little ones? Islam says the best of ibadah is salah and the best of salah is the fard salah. The best of a woman's salah is that which is offered in the private quarters of her home. - Does this have any "subtle" message?? And for the record, la ikrah fid din :: there is no compulsion in religion. As long as you pray in clean clothes, in a state of ritual purity, facing the Qibla, and reciting all the injunctions of the salah with presence of heart, there is no reason for you to think it will not be accepted. and it is her "choice" -(no compulsion) if she wants to pray a most superior salah or just an okay salah. Beacuse when she "chooses" by her free will to work outside, she is choosing by her free will to offer a salah which is okay but not as superior in the eyes of Allah - when she is in a position to "choose" to offer a better one. - Does this not say that Allah likes a woman to stay at home (when she is forced by necessity to work outside, there is no blame on her, since working is "permissible").
Islam also says that it is the wife's duty to make the home a place of comfort for the husband - how do wives fulfil these duties who work all day outside? Islam says that a mother when she is wakes up in the night to change the diapers or tend to other needs of the baby gets the reward of a hajj. Islam says that a woman's jihad is to look after her home with good cheer, and make it comfortable for the family. Allah made the way to Jannah through the feet of the mother - not necessarily a working mother! And there are many, many subtle injunctions in our religion which indicate a woman's place of honor is within the premisses of her home.
Let us look at the secular world now - In olden times when women were not acquiring professional training, and majority of them did not qualify to work as men did, they had little choice in the outside world. This somehow got translated into the notion that working outside the home is superior to the household chores. A woman who is looking after her family, cleaning the house, cooking, etc is somehow doing something inferior to the one who is facing the challenges of the world like men. Perhaps she is less intelligent and less capable of handling those jobs - this concept got undone when women joined the workforce in great numbers. However what got undermined in the process was the huge responsibility of a household. Now when both work and are racing in the competitive world to "survive" and "excelle" in their careers, when it comes to who shld take the trash out, and who shld change the diapers, a vote needs to be caste. As if marriage is democracy. The times today have fooled women to come to the workforce and prove their intelligence, their capability, their apptitude etc. This is foolish because it is her "islamic marital right" to not to have the pressure to prove herself in this area. A woman who cannot be accepted as intelligent and appealing; and respected, honored for her character, and thanked for staying at home to make it an abode of pleasure for all, then either she does not have the art of being a wonderful wife, or she has made a terrible mistake in her choice of a husband!
Now the question of when she is forced by necessity : and this is no question at all, because in that case everything is okay if she has to work to either support herself or herself and her children - she does not have another choice.
If by choice a woman wishes to work because she has a lot of time, and not many responsibilities at home, like a young unmarried woman who is waiting for a suiter, or an elderly whose children have grown up - then she may choose to take a job which does not consume her beyond her need to tend to her homefront.
What happens when a woman chooses to work ourside, when she is better off at home, or when she is more needed at home:- This is what I was trying to shed light on when I said there is something wrong there. In most jobs there is competition, one needs to stay in workforce in order to be promoted or sometimes just in order to have ones footing there. If you go away for 6-8 years, which are more cruicial for your family, you cannot return to as nice positions as your other female collegue who made the "sacrifice" and stood the ground when the going was tough. This is one of the temptations pressuring talented, educated women to make the necessary " sacrifice" and keep working.
The work pressure and the homefront pressure weighs on her - she is stressed and this affects the marrital relationship.
Other ills of this scenario are that now she has proved her worth in the man's world - she is no way a submissive petit for the husband, she knows the rights and wrongs, and she knows what is best for herself, for him and for the family. She thinks it is okay for her to attempt to change him. She thinks it is not necessary for her to obey him in all matters. She steps in the day-to-day decision making ... undermining the authority of her husband as the head of the family. She establishes an example for the children, which is : disobedence to authority is okay if you " think " you are correct. Islamic families should not be built on such foundations.
The husband looses his respect as the head. This is also not correct for a muslim wife.
After working long hours both are tired, and but there are further demands at home and from children - the home is no longer a place for relaxation with the family - it becomes a second job for both. This causes stress, irritability, lack of patience, lack of time to spend with eachother - in short deterioration of a marriage. This is what I should have said in the first place, but did not have a very well formed chain of thoughts earleir. I have skimmed through all the responses, which helped me better to write the above peice. InshAllah I will read again all your responses and see if anything is not addressed through this post, will deal it seperately. Otherwise, this is my collective response to all of the above. ------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 2:13am
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem, Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim, Just to add, please don't bring the examples of Khadija or Aisha radiallahu anhuma - today's women do not measure up to their character in sum total. They are models to be followed, but how may wives follow them? If they did, there would not have been any marital crisis in any home. Khadija's qualification is to be certified in the words of praise and honor from rasul sallallahu alaihe wasallam. Do wives of our age earn such certificates of praise from their husbands? Aisha never worked on a pay job, but she was most beloved of all wives - what was so special about her? I don't think a sensible man's esteem is hurt merely because his wife is earning more or holds a better position at job. But his esteem is hurt when she tries to prove herself better than him. Did khaidja ever try to do that after having earned more than the beloved prophet sallallahu alaihe wasallam, or are we speaking of same Khadija who herself used to carry food for him when he spent days in medidation in the cave. Or the same khadija who was a tour of support and encouragement during the boycott! And where is "respect" for a husband if a woman would try to hurt her man's esteem by trying to prove she is better.Domestic help is her right. Now tell me, is it her right after she has contributed a fair amount to the household or without that contribution? and what country are we talking about? In Japan I have not heard of domestic help. If a wife is working she is doing a job indoors and a job outdoors. How much does it cost in USA or UK?? If you are talking about Inida, Pakistan Bangladesh, or any other country where there is disparity in standards of living, perhaps every household is having domestic help, and that has nothing to do whether the wife is working of not.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 3:02am
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Just to add, please don't bring the examples of Khadija or Aisha radiallahu anhuma - today's women do not measure up to their character in sum total. They are models to be followed, but how may wives follow them? If they did, there would not have been any marital crisis in any home.\
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 4:24am
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Where do I start?
 First of all Sister Nausheen, I'll be honest enough to add that your views really have affected me! I feel depressed and deflated.
 Had I not done my own readings, and met other strong muslim women . . . my view of Islam would surely have gone down. . . especially had I been a non-muslim! One should be really careful not to mix up personal views with those of Islam.Like I said before, If you are happy being the submissive housewife, and that helps your marriage, Alhamdulilah . . . and all the more power to you. But I cannot digest your views generalizing over all the muslim women, or using Islam to to defend them. . . I'm just being honest.
Sister, Like I said those are your personel opinions, based on your views, your upringing, mixed with culture, traditions and norms. And I respect that. . . I have a problem with you using Islam to justify those views. Because Islam DOES NOT anywhere IMPLY that there is "something" wrong with working outside her home. Islam need not use "subtle-ness" or hint at things. . . Islam is very clear and vocal about its injunctions. . . and therefore one cannot use thier personal views, and try to justify them with "subtle" Islamic injunctions that only one sees themselves.
Sister, if we use your way of quoting Islam, we can easily make-up Islamic injuctions for everything from using hairdryers, to women driving to whatnot. Ppl can justifying the female-driving-ban by saying "Does Islam say it is obligatory for women to drive?" No. . .hence the ban is justified!
Sister, ofcourse Islam does not say it is obligatory for women to work. That is not the issue. . . But Islam also does not forbid women to work outside thier house, and that is a fact. If working outside thier houses had been detrimental to the women or thier marriages, Allah would clearly have forbidden just like he forbade so many other things that are detrimental to us, such as Pork, Alcohol, Gambling, taking Interest etc.
Any act in Islam (like u mentioned) that is done with a noble-intention, and according to Islamic principles becomes an act of 'sawab' i.e reward-worthy. No gender-bias. There is a hadith that says that even when a Muslim keeps the islamic ettiquette in mind when going to the toilet, and recites all the duas, even that act brings him sawanb. Hence if a woman, in proper Islamic hijab, goes out to work, and uses her income to give charity, perform Hajj, support her kids/husband, doesnt take interest and her job is within Islamic limitations - then her act is not only permissable, but it becomes an act of sawab/reward.
There is a Sahih Hadith that says that a Husband may not give Zakat to his wife, since she is already his responsibility. . . but a wife may give Zakat to her needy-husband, because he is not her responsibility. Obviousley the hadith assumes that the woman is going to have some sort of income to give zakat! Bcz she has to have a certain financial sum/nisaab to be eligible for Zakat. Thus, this again confirms the fact that Islam assumes that muslim Women may have incomes and financial superiority over husbands. Making it perfectly OK. And thus, again, giving zakat out of her income makes it an act of sawab=praiseworthy.
I agree with you here. However, like I mentioned above, the woman's intention can turn her job/act into reward OR sin. If she intends on working so she can show-off her financial superiority, or use it to flash her material wealth, or rub it in the face of her husband it is wrong.
But if her intention is to be a helping hand, make use of Allah's blessing of giving her a brain/intellect/talent, being a contribution to her fellow females, society -Then her job, whether inside/outside the house, becomes an act of sawab.
Infact, if it was ever an ideal age for mom's to work, it is today. Because companies actually allow omen to bring thier babies to work, and have very flexible timings. And don't say that it is not the same thing, it is the mother's choice. Infact the facilities are greater than available at home, they have feeding rooms, a nurse to help with medical issues/help new moms, etc etc. We have maternal leaves, not only in the west, in islamic countries. Malaysia gives new moms a PAID maternal leave for 2yrs. And the employer is bound by law to give the mom her job back after she returns. Maternal leaves allow women to stay at home and be with the child. After that, the child already starts school in most countries, and by working during the child's school hours, she is not at all missing out on her child.
Sister, Islam suggests that keeping in mind the comfort of the muslim woman. That is another discussion altogether. However, let me just add by saying that praying at home does not neccessarily mean a good/perfect Salaat - just like praying at a mosque does not necessarily mean a perfect Salaat. And I say that keeping in mind all the aspects of Salaat you correctly mentioned. It all depends on the niyat, concentration, level of spiritual involvement, riqqat, dua etc. Some women find they can perform a Salaat with all the above attributes at home - Alhamdulilah. Some find that the environment/serenity of the mosque, and the aspect of collective dua & jamaat is what helps thier Salaat. Which is why, for those women, Allah & His Prophet asked the Believing men not to forbid thier women from going to the Mosque. Sahih Hadith.
Also, one cannot make a sweeping statement that Allah likes a woman to stay at home. Allah judges each individual according to thier individual burdens, circumstances. A muslim woman can be a 24hr stay at home housewife, and yet be a bad muslim. . . it all depends on her actions and imaan. And a muslim woman can be a working woman, yet have stronger imaan. . . depends on the individual. And the level of closness to Allah is determined by taqwa & imaan, something that only Allah can judge - not whether or not she stays at home.
I am restricted by time and other obligations to continue my response at the moment (plus I hav to now hand the computer to my sis) Insha'allah I shall continue (yes, I cannot help it. I have a lot to say
 ) later, and respond to Brother SeeksHidayat as well.Wassalam.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 7:29am
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Women were not forbidden to go to the musjid, even at night, and at the time of the Prophet men and women all prayed together in one room.
Hadith - Bukhari 1:832, Narrated Salim bin 'Abdullah
My father said, "The Prophet 'Abd Allah bin �Umar reported: I heard the Messenger of Allah (SAW) say: "Do not prevent your women from going to the mosque when they seek your permission." Bilaal bin �Abd Allah said: By Allah! We shall certainly prevent them. On this, �Abd Allah bin �Umar turned towards him and reprimanded him so harshly as I had never heard him do before. He (�Abd Allah bin �Umar) said: I am narrating to you that which comes from the Messenger of Allah (SAW) and you (dare) say: By Allah! We shall certainly prevent them. (Saheeh Muslim) Ibn �Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: "Do not prevent women from going to the Mosque at night." A boy said to �Abd Allah bin �Umar: We would never let them go out, that they may not be caught in evil. He (the narrator) said: Ibn �Umar reprimanded him and said: I am saying that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said this, but you say: We would not allow! (Saheeh Muslim) As for taking care of your home being the jihad of women, here are the words of the Prophet:
Hadith - Bukhari 2:595, Ibn 'Aisha
"I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shouldn't we participate in Holy battles and Jihad along with you?" He Even here the Prophet does not forbid women in battle, just advises as to the best jihad for women, Hajj. Which, by the way, does oblige women to leave the home and mix with men. And if a woman has no mahrem to accompany her, she should go in a company of women, alone!!!!! GASP!
Sisters, if you are the submissive type and find that this makes your life easier and complete, Al HamdilAllah. But please do not suggest that Islamically women should, have to, or must, behave in this manner because it simply is not true.
And to suggest that we cannot use Hazrat Khadija or Aisha as examples because women today are not worthy is ludicrous. By that reasoning no man could ever use the Prophet Mohammed as an example because no man today is worthy.
The examples of the Prophet's wives show that they were strong, intelligent, leaders of men and women, and they did not simply sit around and wait for some man to do everything for them.
Making a peaceful, loving home environment in a marriage takes both partners. Both must have respect, caring, patience, mutual understanding, and a desire to bring out the best in their spouse. It is mutual, not one-sided. Men and women have mutual rights over one another: "reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights)", (4-1), these are the Words of Allah.
As for working:
4:32 And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
said, 'If the wife of any one of you asks permission (to go to the mosque) do not forbid her." Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 5:59pm
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 6:00pm
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Okay sisters. just answer this question of mine .
Single out one profession in the present day scenario, especially at a non-muslim countries wherein you don't confront men, wherein there is a separate working section for ladies and many more. Does she speaks sternly in a harsh voice , if at all has to deal with men, be it over phone --- ? Answer them sincerly.
Sisters, what i find is woman are breaking up many rules, in this madness of doing jobs. It does n't matter them, if they are to travel alone, they don't mind shaking hands with men. Do women in Islam stricklty adhere to these rules. May be few, but not all. Examples of sahabiyas are suggested. But do we ever see them diretly dealing with men. Khadijah RA, never directly transacted. Ayesha RA - The great Teacher - used to teach from behind curtains. There's nothing wrong if a muslimah moves out when necessary and adheres to these Islamic rules.
And Shasta's aunt, the verse you cited is perhaps in a wrong context.
As for working:
4:32 And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.
Here is the same verse from Tafsir Ibn Kathir.
32. And wish not for the things in which Allah has made some of you to excel others. For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise
Imam Ahmad recorded that Umm Salamah said, "O Messenger of Allah! Men go to battle, but we do not go to battle, and we earn one-half of the inheritance (that men get).'' Allah sent down, " And wish not for the things in which Allah has made some of you to excel others" For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise) for women there is reward for what they have earned,) indicates, according to Ibn Jarir, that each person will earn his wages for his works, a reward if his deeds are good, and punishment if his deeds are evil.
It was also reported that this Ayah is talking about inheritance, indicating the fact that each person will get his due share of the inheritance, as Al-Walibi reported from Ibn `Abbas.
I would like to remind you all this verse - "
�And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance� [al-Ahzaab - 33].
Ibn Kathir explains this part of the verse - stay in your houses and do not come out unnecessarily. Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: �I have not left after me any fitnah that is more harmful to men than women"
Both men and women are to strictly lower there gaze if they confront.. There are many cases around us where in man becomes infatuated with a woman, or vice versa, which is due to mixing and prolonged interaction. So i feel in this present day scenario, home is the best place for a woman. Else she shall be responsible for erupting whole fitnah around her.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 6:11pm
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Single out one profession in the present day scenario, especially at a non-muslim countries wherein you don't confront men, wherein there is a separate working section for ladies and many more. Does she speaks sternly in a harsh voice , if at all has to deal with men, be it over phone --- ? Answer them sincerly.
I know you want the women to answer but I can name a few starting with one: Beauty Salons......
Sisters, what i find is woman are breaking up many rules, in this madness of doing jobs. It does n't matter them, if they are to travel alone, they don't mind shaking hands with men.
Many of these women are professionals. Many of these women do travel and are independent and don't need a man to walk them around. These are autnomous human beings. Many of them greet men shaking their hands for a variety of reasons. for one, out of politeness. In other cultures it is rude to not greet someone now if this is a relgiious mandate them of course the professional women will tell the men that there is a religious prohibition. However, this is not universal. there are many muslim women who gret shaking hands with no problem.
I do however think its wrong to say women in today don't measure up to Khadijah and Aisha. I mean there is 6 billion humans on the planet and millions of Muslims. Making broad generalizations like that discourages women to be the best they can be. Women today shouldn't strive to be anyone else but themselves. I don't strive to behave like the prophet because I know there is only one Muhammad ibn Abdullah. there is only one Israfil. I stive to be the best human I can be and I think if any example we should take its what they did in their lives to improve their community. But I certainly think its wrong to judge the chaarcter of all women of today especially if you don't know them.
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 6:25pm
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 10:57pm
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 3:30am
Indeed Brother, I have quoted Dr. Zakir here more than once, and I believe he is a knowledgable man. However, though I find myself agreeing to almost everything, there are certain things I do not agree with . . . one of them being the 'debates' :p though they are interesting, I don't believe they achieve thier purpose (tho his intentions may be noble). (Except perhaps a few 'debates') I accept Yusuf Estes opinion on 'debates' rather than Dr. Naiks.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. And that is all I am trying to say. . . which means that one cannot say that working for women is wrong. If Brother, some sisters do not follow Islamic principles in thier daily lives, thier action is held accountable with Allah alone , and we are no one to label working outside the home as 'wrong' , simply because some sisters are not aware/care about Islamic injunctions.
Brother, let me use this to elaborate another point of mine. (Now this is a personal opinion of Dr. Zakir . . . because Islam does not say that any certain profession is better for women or not)
Can you seriously suggest that a sister can today become a qualified, medical doctor all the while depending on her male-mahrams? I am perfectly aware of the 'recommendation' of male-mahrams accompanying muslim women, and I believe Allah had a maslihat for that, and I am in whole-hearted agreement with it. However, I also believe that is a 'strong reccomendation' rather than a forbiddance. I do not believe that a woman who is unaccompanied by a non-mahram male is sinning, niether is it haraam or forbidden. Islam gives us levels of permissabilty of actions.
This especially meant a lot at a time when travel was unsafe, usually on foot or camels, which could easily be intercepted by burglars or mischief-makers. Travel was long, often for months, and females are given to discomfort at certain times, thus travelling with a male companion makes things easier, especially when it came to dealing with rowdy men, or non-muslims - at that time, women as a general rule were not respected. . . anywhere. Even travelling as a group, women were not safe. Because the absence of a male guardian meant anyone could mistreat the women since they were vulnerable.
Plus the muslim males of the time had more chivalry . . . they thought of thier guardianship as a responsibility. I am afraid the males today look upon it more as a burden, and rather than go through the trouble of accompanying thier women, would rather have them stay at home. I have seen brothers stomp around and refuse to get thier sisters things from the shop down the street. Many a times my friennds could not come to school events, bcz it was the driver's day off and the brother/father did not want to take the trouble to drive thier daughters bcz it would waste thier weekend. . . and simply asked them not to go.
Women have to go to university, can you expect a male guadian accompanying them eversingle day, twice a day? What about AT university, isnt the sister alone at university now? Or should she have a male mahram there too? Most universities are co-ed, since it takes double the resources to make one exclusive for females, and many countries dont offer them, thus she comes into contact with non-mahram males. Sometimes the timings are not fixed, are the men really, practically at the beck and call of thier women, so as to drop everything they are doing and go pick up a sister. What about higher studies? If a sister gets a scholarship in another city or abroad, can you expect the males of the house to accompany them? What about when they are in the professional field now. . . Can you expect the male-mahram to be present during the Dr.Sister's daily rounds? Wht abt night duties? She is coming into contact with non-mahram males during this time as well.
Even if you take the 'islamically' preferred job i.e. Medical Profession. . . a woman cannot become a qualified doctor if she is to rely soley on her mahrams to depend on. Perhaps 1 out of 100 men would be dedicated enough to do that.
In today's day and age, women can safely commute/travel Islamically and securely without the need of a male-mahram. And when there is no hurdle to a woman's security . . . there is no harm. Because that was one of the main reasons/maslihat Allah reccomended a mahram. A car is safer and more secure than any travel item. She is even hidden from prying eyes, and can fulfill even the strictest forms of hijab. She doesnt even have to converse/deal with strange men. At any urgency/emergency . . . one has to dial 911 or anyother number (any mahram in this situation would do the same, call authorities. . .not take out a sword and fight.) She doesnt even have to perform physical labour such as put up tents on rest-stops(like in the olden days) or change the tyres. . .she can simply call ppl for that.
As for conversing with unrelated males. . . Brother that is a neccessaty you cannot escape. Even if a woman is at home 24hrs she has to converse with males at sometime, whether it be the Plumber, Milkman, servant, driver, gardner etc. The only way she can 100% prevent conversations with the opp sex is if all the above positions are filled with women. . .
 and that again brings us to the subject of the neccessaity of women in the workforce.From an Islamic point of view, Niether Allah nor His Prophet forbade conversing with the opp-sex. WHICH IS WHY Allah sent doen conversational ettiqeute. Bcz if it had been forbidden, Allah would not have sent down, 'how-to-talk-to-men' instructions. Men and Women are asked to lower thier gaze WHEN a brazen thought comes to the mind. One does not have to avoid eye-contact when there is a completely harmless/stricyly professional conversation is going on. Many scholars agree on that. And some women have a tendency to be very flirtatious or soft-spoken, and male colleagues may mis-interpret the signals. HENCE Allah asks the women to talk in a no-nonsense tone of voice. . .so even the st**idest of men do not mistake thier intentions/signals. And honestly, if a woman does all that, no man will ever look upon her more than a professional colleague.
This I believe Brother, is again a personal preference or opinion. Not many factories are woman-only. And even if they hav mixed employees, you will notice a natural tendencies of muslims to group with thier own gender. I have seen clips of Factories workers on TV (of Pakistan, where nobody forbids the mixing of men/women) yet the women will be naturally seated on one side, and men on the other. . . busy in thier work. In an assembly-line, believe me Brother. . .workers dont have time to scratch thier noses, let alone gaze at each other.
And I repeat, Allah would not have sent down instructions regarding dealing with the opp-sex, had Allah not known about the inevitable neccassity of dealing with the opp-sex.
I believe Brother, this again. . .is more of a personal opinion/cultural reflection. I agree, Islam does not encourage intermingling BECAUSE of natural sexual tendencies. But Islam does not forbid it either. Let us take the example Dr. Zakir gave himself. Even if the medical field was the only profession, Female Doctors cannot avoid intermingling with men.
Islam ONLY has a problem when sexuality comes in between unrelated/nonmahram members of the opp sex.
Not every muslim sister has an able Father or Brother. And even if they do, not every father, brother or husband is willing to take up the extra burden of dealing with another business's issues. . especially when he has his own responsibilities. I believe only a certain minority of men are that God-Fearing and willing to help out. Thus you are excluding a huge chunk of the female population.
My Dad works 9-6. And I have no brothers. Am I to say good-bye to my skills/education/talents and not apply them in the workplace, just because I do not have any Male-Mahrams apart from my Dad? (Btw, I do not work, so wanted to add that I am not defending working muslim women just because I work. It is a matter of principles)
Alhamdulilah. And with all due respect. . . Khadija R.A was already a succesful business woman before she met our beloved Prophet Muhammad. Infact, she gauged his suitability as a husband while he was her unrelated employee. True she had not exactly met our Prophet, and she bascially conducted business-affairs through her trusted male servant Maisra (that the name right?) Thus even her servant was a na-mahram male. And she trusted him with business affairs. She trusted him enough to decide her propsal of marriage to Muhammad based on Maisrah's account of Prophet Muhammad's character. True, that Khadijah never travelled with her trading caravans, but she always hired agents and traders to do that for her, and that meant dealing with males.
Infact one of the reasons I respect Dr. Israr is because he asked the muslims not to fanatically follow or believe in any certain Islamic Scholar . . . but to always get a variety of views on the issue and form an opinion accordingly. Infact he said, don't even take my own words to be set-in-stone, and listen to other scholars, and if you find a better islamic point of view. Follow that. And I believe it takes a lot of humility and self-respect to say all that. Which is why I respect him, and very respectfully disagree on the issue of working outside the home.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 12:46pm
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Assalamu Alaikum:
I always enjoy when Muslims today point out that women must be always be accompanied by a mahrem, even though this is not the case Islamically, and that women should stay indoors, should not mix with men, etc...
I notice that it is usually men or married women who hold these very strict views. I also wonder where these same Muslims are when it comes to single, divorced, or widowed Sisters who must work for a living, who must go out alone, who must mix with men. I rarely if ever see them coming forward to offer to financially support and pay the Sisters' bills so that they will not have to do any of these things that they consider "wrong". Isn't that what such observant and strict Muslims should do?
I remember after September 11 it was very tense here and there were a number of hate crimes against Muslims. I knew a couple of Sisters who had to work and removed their hijab because because they had been threatened or were afraid. Instead of getting support here in the community they got talked about and told how haraam it was. This by women who were married and did not even venture out for months without their husbands, some not even then out of fear. Their husbands did the shopping, checked the mail, took the kids to school, etc because it was not "safe", yet they were the ones screaming "haraam" the loudest at the Sisters who HAD to go out and so removed their hijab. Not once did anyone offer to pay the other Sisters' bills to keep them safe and covered, or for their husbands to shop for the other Sisters, or run errands for them so they wouldn't be as exposed.
Personally I found it all rather hypocritical. It is easy to tell someone they should or shouldn't do something when you are sitting safe and are not in their situation. And instead of being so judgemental and turning on these women, they could have been truly GOOD Muslims and do as Allah told them to do in The Quran and care for them.
I think this was one of the single most disappointing times for me personally as a Muslim. To watch the judgement and total lack of empathy for women who in the Islamic ideal would not HAVE to work to begin with because all of those passing judgement should have been offering monetary help.
No, I was not married at the time, and yes I wore hijab. I did not take mine off, but more out of stubborness than anything else. However, I was physically assaulted in a grocery store and after that I seriously thought about removing it for a while. Ironically, when I was attacked, even though there were other Muslims in the store, it was non-Muslims who helped me. Another eye-opener.....
I guess my point here is that until the Ummah as a whole and Muslims as individuals are ready to step up and live Islam, then we have no business condemning others because WE are not doing what we are supposed to do either. And I'm not talking about salaat and fasting. I'm talking about taking care of women and orphans and treating each other as equals and truly believing that the best of us are the ones closest to Allah, and no longer refusing to be friends or in-laws with other Muslims because of their race or ethnicity, or just feeding a hungry homeless person instead of looking away, or protecting innocent animals from harm.... or any of the millions of small and not so small things we should be doing every single day but just do not do. Once we start doing all of these things along with our salaat and fasting then perhaps we can advise others on how to be good Muslims. But I suspect by then we would all be so busy actually being good Muslims and good human beings we wouldn't have the time or the energy to harass others.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 5:21pm
The above Ayat is not about inheritance as an inheritance is given to you, not something you earn AND this Ayat following it addresses inheritance specifically:
4:33 And unto everyone have We appointed heirs to what he may leave behind: parents, and near kinsfolk, and those to whom you have pledged your troth give them, therefore, their share. Behold, God is indeed a witness unto everything.
and the Ayat after that about men spending on women:
4:34 MEN SHALL take full care of women with the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on the former than on the latter, and with what they may spend out of their possessions...
It is clear that these Ayats concern monetary/material matters and while the Ayat might also mean the deeds which we have earned, it speaks of Allah's bounty bestowed upon us and we all know that Allah allows us to create our own good or bad deeds, so the bounty spoken of must mean something else. As it is written in the context of covetnous and the following Ayats speak of monetary matters I think it can only mean something other than our deeds, that it probably means just what is says:
4:32 And in no wise covet those things in which Allah Hath bestowed His gifts More freely on some of you than on others: To men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn: But ask Allah of His bounty. For Allah hath full knowledge of all things.
And I would like to know who made women responsible for the bad thoughts of men? Since all of us are resonsible for our own deeds and actions and men are told to lower their gaze and observe hijab just as much as women, why are women the ones who must stay home sequestered away so that men won't be tempted? Isn't it their responsibility to control themselves? It appears to me that Allah made it clear in The Quran that we are each responsible for ourselves. Women already wear hijab, do not wear perfume or make up do not laugh or flirt or talk with men in any way other than straight forward, AND that still isn't enough? Just how weak are the men today?
I believe this Ayat was directed toward the wives of The Prophet after someone accused Aisha of fitnah:
and the Ayat that follows:
33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
MEN and WOMEN... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 5:29pm
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"but if she has to travel alone beyond the limits set by shariah , is she not going against Islamic rules ? She needs a mahram ."
I posted the hadith that states if a woman has no mahrem for Hajj to go with other women. Islam is not so difficult and Allah did not place the restrictions on women that men try to. Please show me one Ayat in The Quran that states a woman cannot work, travel, think, be intelligent...
There is a Hadith where The Prophet came upon a woman that he knew walking back from the date fields where she had been working. She had several miles to walk so he told her to get on his camel with him, but she said no as her husband would be too upset.
I like this Hadith because it shows that women worked, women were out alone, The Prophet was not afraid to touch her as He offered her a ride behind him, and she turned him down and kept walking, which shows her strength....
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:05pm
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As'Salamu Alaikum ,
Sisters, i now, understand this wisom behind the hadith that when a woman sins, even her husband, father , son or brother, whoever in there life , are also dragged into hell. Your posts did flash over the negligence of brothers or husbands towards there families. And also of muslim men towards society. It is equally important that they be educated over this issue. To bring up a peaceful and good society, there is need for co-operation and equal contribution from both sides. Both are equally responsible.
"Please show me one Ayat in The Quran that states a woman cannot work, travel, think, be intelligent..."
Sister, i never said, nor did any member say that woman cannot work, or think or be intelligent. Kindly, clear that misconception. Especially, in my posts i did say that she can come out when it is necessary. I never said , she cannot think or be intelligent. That would not rear the wheels of a man's life.
Yes, regarding travelling alone - here is a point of discussion. Limits set by shariah is 50 KM. Here again let me remind you that the definition of "travel distance" varies. Most of them agree to be 50 KM. If she has to travel beyond that limit them she surely has to travel along a mahram.
Here are few hadiths
It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: �No woman should travel except with a mahram, and no man should enter upon a woman unless there is a mahram with her.� A man said: �O Messenger of Allaah, I want to go out with such and such an army, and my wife wants to go for Hajj.� He said: �Go for Hajj with her.� Narrated by al-Bukhaari (1763) and Muslim (1341).
It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: �It is not permissible for a woman who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel for the distance of one day and one night except with her mahram.� Narrated by al-Bukhaari (1038) and Muslim (133). According to al-Bukhaari (1139) and Muslim (827), from the hadeeth of Abu Sa�eed: �The distance of two days.�
Sister these were the hadiths that clearly forbids women to travel alone. Can you give me the link wherein hajj is permitted without a mahram. I did not read all the posts. If you have posted it, let me know.
Sister Chrysallis said :
This especially meant a lot at a time when travel was unsafe, usually on foot or camels, which could easily be intercepted by burglars or mischief-makers. Travel was long, often for months, and females are given to discomfort at certain times, thus travelling with a male companion makes things easier, especially when it came to dealing with rowdy men, or non-muslims - at that time, women as a general rule were not respected. . . anywhere.
Sister, hadiths are general rules and are applicable for all muslims and for all times. Even these days we habe burglars and mischeif makers. Infact they are far improvised in there techniques. However the journey may be safer, the happiness of obeying the commands of Islam are far more rewarding. Don't look wisdom behind the hadith, as a muslim lets try to obey.
Shasta's aunt says
guess my point here is that until the Ummah as a whole and Muslims as individuals are ready to step up and live Islam, then we have no business condemning others because WE are not doing what we are supposed to do either. And I'm not talking about salaat and fasting. I'm talking about taking care of women and orphans and treating each other as equals and truly believing that the best of us are the ones closest to Allah, and no longer refusing to be friends or in-laws with other Muslims because of their race or ethnicity, or just feeding a hungry homeless person instead of looking away, or protecting innocent animals from harm.... or any of the millions of small and not so small things we should be doing every single day but just do not do. Once we start doing all of these things along with our salaat and fasting then perhaps we can advise others on how to be good Muslims. But I suspect by then we would all be so busy actually being good Muslims and good human beings we wouldn't have the time or the energy to harass others.
Sister you highlighted a very important issue that needs attention. Certainly, we need to start up with our own selves, at the same time, if the strength of faith permits us we are to educate people around us too. May Allah swt help us to improve in other areas too which badly needs to be corrected. My final words - Muslimahs when out for jobs when necessity arises , follow the Islamic rulings and be mindful of Allah swt always.
May Allah swt guide all of us, esp the brothers in Islam, May they be conscious of there responsibility towards there sisters and towards the society too.Ameen
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:26pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem, Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
SeeksHidayath, assalamualaiku, There is a difference of opinion between ulema regarding the permissibility of women in traveling. A hanafi woman cannot travel without mahram, but a shafii woman can if she is in a group. Also if a woman is alone, with no mahram in this world - eg a revert, who has no family member as muslim, she may travel alone. Also some time ago I personally asked a hanafi scholar about the rigidity of the hanafi position, and he responded that acc. to the fatwa of Mufti Taqi Uthmani - who was the grand mufti of Pakistan - women can travel alone for the purpose of job or meeting family, if they are travelling in a group. And the meaning of group is eg an aeroplane journey will take that qualification.
So, I know this hadith which you have quoted, but there is a despensation there. InshAllah when we have despensations, we cannot make an issue with muslims who want to settle on a different position. Khair inshAllah.
I agree with many of your points and thank you for supporting my notions. Jazak Allahu khair.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:46pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Crysalis, All through your arguments the bottom line is "since it is a woman's prerorogative to work, why should she not use it!" An argument which generates a counter-argument telling you that sugar is halal, but if you have diabetes running in your family, it is advisable to take it in small quantities. A woman can work does not mean she should work under all circumstances ... You called my statements generalizing, when I listed the categories of women population who may work without any if or but ... My posts are directed to women who are young, married, and have small children (and I should also add - living a life without doemstic help). Even in this category I would say if they are forced by necessity, they may work because it is afzal to eat what ones hands earn rather than begging. If the category of women to whom my responses are directed comprise a major chunk of any country's population I did not design this scenario ... and you cannot call me generalizing due to the presence of this scenario. If most women of a population are young, who do not have any domestic help or any extended family support, working outside the home can prove a nightmare at times. Just because she is intelligent, talented, educated and its her prerorogative to work does not make it the most wise decision for her. [and if the situations are favorable, ie she is able to find domestic help, plus her working hours are not odd she is living in bliss, no really!!] Please do not presume things for my personal circumstances or upbringing, simply because you don't know me or my background. I am not offended rather found your statements chuckling. You said: Sister, no subtle messages here. Islam is very clear, that the mother is the best care-giver /care-taker of the child. How does that help the argument against working mothers? Are working mothers deficit of maternal qualities? This is your assumption, not mine. You also said: Infact, if it was ever an ideal age for mom's to work, it is today. Because companies actually allow omen to bring thier babies to work, and have very flexible timings. And don't say that it is not the same thing, it is the mother's choice. Infact the facilities are greater than available at home, they have feeding rooms, a nurse to help with medical issues/help new moms, etc etc. We have maternal leaves, not only in the west, in islamic countries. Malaysia gives new moms a PAID maternal leave for 2yrs. And the employer is bound by law to give the mom her job back after she returns. Maternal leaves allow women to stay at home and be with the child. After that, the child already starts school in most countries, and by working during the child's school hours, she is not at all missing out on her child. This I have issues with. I don't know of any part time jobs or contract jobs that allow a paid maternity leave. May be my knowledge of the world is too little. Last time we were in Canada, I was on a full time contract job and I was told I cannot get paid maternity leave. Which meant I had to go on leave without pay, and return to work for at least 6 months to receive the payment for my days of maternity. To best of my knowledge if a woman is enjoying paid maternity leave etc she is working a 9-5 job, which is also permanant - how many jobs fall in this criterion? I am tempted to say you are generalizing things to support your views. Now, back to your previous comment - where from will she find time to spend with her babies in a 9-5 job? A 9-5 job at an average means one needs to leave the home at around 7 or 7:30, to deposit the baby/kid in the day care, before proceeding for work. Then in the evening after collecting them return home at about the same time. If there is no domestic help, she will have to cook, clean, feed the family, and prepare the children for bed - pray and take rest herself because she needs to rejuvinate her body for another day which will be as hectic as this one. - where is the time for teaching the tender hearts and impressing their sponge like minds with her values? where is the time for husband, or even for that matter for herself. In a country where daycare is cheap, extended families live nearby, domestic help is invariably available, women actually enjoy working. They are not stressed. Further the cultural set up is such that every stress can be buffered by the society. Marital problems are few caused by work stress. A stark contrast of this is life in the west. In USA and Canada, child care for an infant is $1000 per month. I dont know in UK. An average salary is between $20oo and $2500. Additionaly domestic help also costs a huge sum - though i have not heard of the exact costs. If you did not know this, please stop here to think for a while. Because leaving the kid in day care for a 9-5 job means she is first spending almost half to one third of her income on day care fascilities - she is also leaving her children in the care of people who have values very different from those of muslims (when this is the best time to impress on them her own values). She is spending so much of time on her job, losing so much of children's growing up, being stressed a work and at home, all for just a little extra money and her so called prerorogative to work ... Just an extra note here, my son gets sick in daycare whenever there is a virus or infectious bacteria in the air - then the whole family takes turn to get sick because he brings the infection home, and our homes are too small in Japan - all day cares in japan have this problem - all mothers complain about this. They just cannot keep children from catching infection from eachother. once when he was 1 yr old I had to stay with him a whole week in hospital - with a continuous IV on his foot, because he got sick from the day care ... perks of being a working mother! Another scenario ... muslim men from developing countries go to USA and hunt for spouses with green card. Sometimes these ladies are christians and on others new muslims. These men dont want to work because life is tough - work is also tough. They love to be lazy around their US national wives - slaving them to work. - again this is not a generalizing statement - not all are like this, but many many women are trapped in this circus because they dont know an option other than their so called prerorogative to work. Working can be wonderful as long as you enjoy all the freedom, with little neglected responsibilities back at home, and get huge pocket money. But in reality the working package is not all that of a fairy tale. Young couples should organize their money and building of their family in a manner which does not throw women in this stressful life style. Because stress on a woman means not only deteriration of her physical health, but also her mental health - this affect they way she deals with people who are in close contact with her. There can be ways of working about this problem - the first step to this will however be realization of a problem, otherwise they will continue to live in this working package which can never be a fairy tale.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 1:24am
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I think it is fair to say that many people fall apart and are not fulfilling their religious duties. This could be on diferent levels for men and women.
Sadness its the reality.. society really has gone a bit mad.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:31am
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Sorry for the double posts. Had to edit this one. . .cz dont have the option of 'delete'. . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:33am
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Sorry for the double posts. Had to edit this one. . .cz dont have the option of 'delete'. . . . ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:35am
I have heard this before as well . . .however I find that hard to believe since it seems to go against the Qur'anic verses which talk about both Men and Women being responsible for thier own actions. I believe a Qur'anic verse also says something like , Noone shall bear the burden of another. So, I would appreciate Brother if you could provide me a source for the above sayings. . .however my natural inclination would be to tilt towards the Qur'anic ayat, since I have come across many that talk of how muslims are each responsible for thier own actions.
I do believe that if any muslim remains silent in the face of another muslim who is doing wrong, than he shares a little responsibilty as well, since it is his/her duty to do 'amar bil marouf, anhil nahi munkar' . . . but I believe it goes for BOTH men & women. Hence if a wife sees her husband going against Islamic injunctions, ithere is an equal parts duty on her to inform her husband of the islamic injunctions. This is solely not the man's responsibility.
I believe Sister Nausheen's references regarding the issue of Mahrams have clarfied the issue to quite an extent. Jazakallah to her.
And thankyou for posting the ahadith Brother. Let me stress that I do not dislike the concept of a mahram accompanying a woman , niether do I think this infringes a woman's rights. It makes me love Islam all the more because Allah puts extra burdens/responsibilities on the man, just for the sake of the woman's protection, rights, care etc. Alhamdulilah.
Infact, if anyone is losing out in this situation, it is the man, because he is the one with the burden here, not the woman. For me, the ideal and preferred situation would be that the Mahram accompany the woman. . .HOWEVER when Mahrams are not available, or refuse to perform thier duty, My opinion is that the muslim woman should not have to suffer, just because she doesnt have a mahram, or her mahram refuses to accompany her. She should go about her business, when there is a lack of a marham. And all I am saying is that we are noone to tell that woman that she should not go out, if she doesnt have a mahram. since all individuals have different circumstances.Besides Brother, one doesnt even have to worry about the Mahram issue. Believe me Brother, women have this natural instinct of having a support-group. Did you ever notice that women wont even go to the toilet alone, and always drag a sister along?
 On a serious note. You will notice this, even amongts non-muslim women, who dont have the concept of a mahram. Whenever they venture into an unsafe environment, or an environment that they are not comfortable with, they TOO will drag a male escort along. Same is with muslim women. They will only venture out alone, if they are confident of the security issue. And if they are going to a market-place known for its hooligans, she will always go with a bro, husb or father. . .
So my point is: An outsider, especially a male, need not tell muslim women that they are not to venture outside without a Mahram, because MOST Muslim Women have the common sense to know when they need one. When circumstances demand it, Muslim Women will naturally opt for a Mahram . . .in the majority of cases, especially if they are aware of Islam. However when the circumstances are devoid of the need of a mahram . . . She may venture out without one as well. And the reason I feel there is a need to make this distinction is so that ppl know it is not 'Haraam', and make sweeping statements and ban thier women frm going out. Or take that as a ruling to make generalized laws such as the one in Saudia Arabia today, which makes it illegal for a woman to leave the house without a mahram. . . because we know that although the Prophet reccommended Mahrams, he did not forbid women from going out as well.
There are numerous incidents in ahadith that mention women outside the house without a mahram, and yet the Prophet never reprimanded them. And the reason he didnt do that was so in the future, Muslims wouldnt use that instance to make Taliban-like rules that forbade women from going out.
Like I said before, on the Islamic preference scale (Halal, Mustahab, Makrouh, Haraam) One may put without-a-mahram on a 'less-desirable' scale, but definatley not on the 'forbidden' one. Hence, this does not give anyone the right to pass judgements on women who venture out without Mahrams since we are in no position to know thier circumstances, hence not comment on it.
This Hadith is more for the men, since it is telling them that when thier wives wish to go somewhere, they should accompany her. . . and not refuse. Subhanallah, the Prophet did not say, Go on a war and tell your wife that since you are busy, she should delay her plans and go later. He put the woman's need equal to the man's!!! Even though BOTH the man and wife had an equally important need! And Even though Hajj can be performed any year, yet Jihad is a now-or-never opportunity! Thus, this is a message to all Brothers. If your wife needs to go somewhere, and asks you to come, Don't refuse because ur napping or watching TV. . .GO WITH HER. Because the Prophet equates the wife's needs to the man's. As long as they are of the same level (like Jihad/Hajj is a similar need, Mall/TV is a similar need.) Obviousley a man doesnt have to delay obligatory actions such as prayers etc for an unimportant request.
So if the Travel distance is less than two days, the woman can travel without a mahram?
I agree wholeheartedly with the Ahadith you quoted, and am aware of them. However, my application of the Ahadith differs from yours Brother. I believe that in order to apply Islamic Principles in our lives, in the face of changing times and circumstances, we have to look behind the wisdom of injunctions as well. And apply it accordingly. Thus, I will not say that Ahadith get aborgated na'aazubillah, but thier application changes, according to circumstances. For example, we all know that after 3 divorces, Allah still gives a chance for ex-spouses to remarry after they've been married once, right? But during Umar R.A khilafat, circumstances changed, and ppl started misusing the ruling and divorces-remarriage became rampant. So for a certain time-period Umar R.A made it illegal to remarry the same spouse after 3 divorces. . . He did not say the Hadith were not applicable anymore, he had to temporarily change the application of the ruling, for the greater good - due to circumstances. Islam also does not set a limit to the Mahr a woman may demand, but due to the circumstances of the time, and marriage-expenses sky-rocketing for the man, due to a high-mahr trend in arabia, Umar R.A put a maximum limit to the Mahr women may demand. Thus, the ruling was there, yet the application changed for the time bieng according to circumstances.
Thus, though I will not say that this Hadith is nauzubillah no longer valid. I believe that due to circumstances, the application may change. Which is why scholars today looked at the wisdom behind the Ahadith and made furthur explanations, clarifications for Mahrams, and concluded that in certain circumstances, a Mahram is not necessary e.gs of Hajj, Airplanes, Cars and other things that Sis Nausheen quoted.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 9:02am
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It is interesting when I was in Pakistan i stayed in Karachi for a few weeks with friends. And often did not get ot go anywhere alone. Which on one hand is nice (no one wants to loose a guest in a city of 15 million). One the other hand, I felt like a tremedous burden. I would love to have gone and walked around and seen things, but I knew folks were not interested. So.. I went slowly mad.. drinking tea and well.. drinking tea.
For a few days later I went to Lahore on my own..playing tourist. Got my owm rickshaw driver and did the sights. Later I went to the bazaar to do some shopping. And it was a release not to feel like I was dragging someone around. I've been dragged around shoppping (I am not a shopper type) and let me tell you..I could take my time and not fel like I was imposing on someone.
When I was a teenager my class trip went to disneyworld. And we had to stay in groups. Two of the young girls I was with wanted to "shop" I almost went insane looking at mickey mouse dolls.. I mean, how many does one need to see?? I was all ready for the rides.. ended up looking at stuffed creatures.. uggh
I learned to bring something to read with me everywhere I went in Pakistan. The group stuff wears me out!
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 9:52am
So one can say, that unless a person has Diabetes, he/she may eat as much sugar as he/she wills. . . since this is his/her God-given right. And another person does not have the right to comment on the amount of sugar consumed by another. Even though I really dont think this analogy translates to working women, I gave it a try.
I never insisted that women should work under all circumstances. I believe that the decision is solely upto the woman alone, and we are no one to say when she should work, when she should not, how long, under what circumstances etc etc. It is the sole decision of the woman in question.
Prerogative: 'The exclusive right and power to command, decide, rule, or judge'
Sister, I believe the muslim lady in question, is better able to decide whether or not it is a wise decision. And other ppl can simply put forward thier opinions when asked. . . but cannot conclude on other's behalf, what is a wise decision, and what is not.
I dont believe I ever presumed anything about your circumstances or upbringing! I simply stated that your views probably represent your own upbringing/circumstances. . . I believe that is hardly any presumption, bcz but natural, everyone's views are often a product of variables such as upbringing.
However, If in anyway you felt I was being presumptious about you, let me say that was not my intention. And I apologize.
Sister, I never said that all jobs offer such services, I was saying that due to an increase in the facilities, flexibilities for women at work. . . if it has ever been ideal for women to work, it has been today (or in the future) Infact, I'm sure you are correct when you say there are no such leaves/incentives for moms working part-time. Because, obviousley a part-time employee doesnt have the same responsibilities, thus incentives as a full-time one.
Then again, part-time jobs arent even a problem, since they hav flexi times. Moms working 9-5 jobs can make use of the maternity incentives.
Like I said before, lets leave that decision to the working mom. Unless a working-mom sees a benefit/need/neccessaty in working - she will not work. Every one has different capabilities, abilities (to multi-task), some brains need more intellectual stimulation, others are better off taking things slow . . . hence it all boils down to the individual decision.
I was merely giving examples of the opportunities today's women have. I am also aware that women with lower educational qualifications will also not get these jobs, thus be excluded. This was an example of flexibility women have, not a generalization.
I can also quote examples of flexibilities that women are given in non-mutlinational companies. I am sure there are other examples of other countries as well, bcz if Pakistan gives these benefits to women (and its not known for its women rights) then I am sure other countries have far better policies (such as Malaysia, UAE). For example, married female teachers are often exempted from late duties in schools. Or exempted from accompanying students on extra-curricular trips that lie outside of normal teaching hours. They are also more leniently treated when it comes to medical-leaves, coming late. Many are also provided exclusive door-to-door transport facilities. Universities often run subsidized pick-n-drop services solely for female students. . . just so they have one-less reason to miss out on education.
Again sister, I am not insisting that all new-moms go out and work. I believe that if they want to, have good arrangements for the baby, and can deal with the pressure, then there is no harm. Often a times, women can rely on close relatives such as Aunts, Grandmothers to take care of the babies. Even if that means a 9-5 job (Again Sis, Im not suggesting all hav that option, ) .
If a sister is facing all the above stated problems, I think her natural inclination would be to quit her job. And she will. I know a sister who has worked 20+ yrs, and she recently quit, due to health issues, and bcz her kids are now grown and can take care of financial needs. She is married, and worked willingly, not because they were starving. . . but bcz her husband couldnt earn enough to send the kids to a good school. She wanted her kids to have certain things in life. And though she may not have always been at home to bake lasagnes . . . she was always there. And I hav seen her 3 sons respect her all the more because of her extra contribution. More than I see other kids respecting thier stay-at-home moms, cz they take them for granted. (I am not using this example to say that all women should start working tomorrow!) I'm saying, what works for certain ppl, doesnt work for others.
Which is why I have mentioned time and again on this forum, as well as to other sisters, that working is not an obligation on them . . .rather a personal willing option.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 10:33pm
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 10:44am
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I'm sorry but Muslim scholars must continue to look at the changing world and the professions women are doing. I guess I can only speak from experience because I've seen it with my own eyes, but the problem I'm having is twofold: Who decides what's best for the woman? The interpretation of Hadith by scholars (who are men) or God? Like the intellectuals before us like Al-Ghazzali, Ibn Sina, and Ibn rushd I'm of the opinion that God communicates us through 'divine providence' somehow and I believe if something is truly wrong God speaks to us in our conscious. Of course mines is the uorthodox approach but bringing all this back I'm basically saying how we justifiy the restriction of a woman's travel if its not even universally agreed upon? Especially if such is considered divine. Also, I am of the opinion that in the working world I believe exemptions must be made because a lot of professionals positions require the gender neutral "handshake." It appears we keep looking at it from the standpoint of sexuality when it is always not the case. A woman's job maybe on the line if she does not greet someone appropriately. For instance in japanese cultures you bow as a sign of humility and respect. In Western countries and others you shake hands. Now if you are closing a deal between your company and the foreign company (whatever country it is) aren't there exemptions that are made where in order to show a sign of respect and hospitality you greet strangers appropriately on for the purpose of work?
As you can see there are stark difference between the skaing of the hands in a work related setting than casual. I'm merely focusing on the work related setting. I just can't believe that in law, there is on exemptions.
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Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:45pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Israfil, I hope muslim scholar are doing this - looking at the changing world and giving fatwas that allow the flexibility in Islam which makes it a religion for all nations, in all times. Although, when i say "giving fatwas" these days it has more negetive connotations than productive ones. I hope we can keep this aside for a while. When scholars do not agree on any one position, ( and here I mean real scholars, not just the so called ones), they "respect" the difference of opinion. A despensation is a blessing, and the best example of it is in hajj, where one cannot stick to any one Imam's way for entire hajj - were one to do so, it would become extremely difficult to complete all rites, when as it is Hajj is a very difficult form or worship in itself.
As for your question on to justify the restriction of women travelling ... well the answer to muslims is that following an imam is indespensable. We may know the rulings of one madhab and try to stay with it. If there is a dire situation where one cannot follow, then look for despensation in another madhab and take that position for that circumstance and there is no blame in this case. This should be so simply because we cannot, in a life time study the entire religion, and know all its rulings, and at the same time remain devoted to our daily routine, our own careers ad go about our daily life in the normal way. Being a scholar in Islam is a devotion in and of itself. Those who have set out in this line, it is required of them to devote their entire lives, only then they can understand all the rulings and all the exceptions ... and in some cases, with the changing world they may still fall short. So how can a comman man level up to those requirements?
For the general muslim public it suffices to know only that of religion which is sufficient for their safety in the hereafter, and leave the rest as scholar's business. Just like a normal civilian does not need to know all the laws of state - he needs to know only those which keeps him from breaking them. If he has a problem, or his rights are infringed, then there is a court, and there are lawyers who are professionally trained to know/learn all the laws - their pros and cons etc - just an analogy.
So when we follow a particular madhab, then the responsibility of "justification" is of the scholars not us. Our responsibility is only to follow.
You are correct to presume that all men are erroneous, and this is why we have not one but four madhab in sunni schools of thought, and one must respect all four positions. One is free to follow any of the four. One is also allowed to mix between the four opinions, as long as one does not do this as a habit merely to choose the easiest position of all the four.
However one must not presume in ones own qualification, and the devotion given to study religion that one will be able to correct the mistakes of the pious imams. We are not in a capacity to correct them - here is another analogy, if you do not know how to tailor a suit, you will depend on a person who is skilled in the job. If he made something that does not fit exactly to your size (ie fits only nearly), it is still not wise to want to make a suit yourself, rather settle with the fact that the tailor is not perfect, and go about your business in that suit - if the little defect in tailoring is not hurting your business.
The problem today is that we forget that imperfection also has degrees, and if our four imams were imperfect, their station with Allah is still better/higher than ours, because our wara(scroupulousness) and our taqwa (fear that generates obedience) is poor with respect to theirs.
As for your opinion on the working world - we must not forget that our sharia has limits. There is bending and flexibility possible within this limit and not beyond. As long as we mind this I dont think there should be a problem.
We cannot however compromise the sharia to please the world. eg, there is no difference of opinion on whether a woman should cover or not - so come what may, a woman who does not wear a hijab for business needs is in error.
On the issue of shaking hands again there is a difference of opinon, and one may settle to whatever opinion one can bring his/her heart to conformity with. Personally I would not want to shake hands with any man under any situation. Though this is a state I have arrived at in years. I would never dare think low of any muslim sister who shakes hands. Simply because I don't know the quality of her prayers, and the strenght of her iman. - and for that matter any muslim brother.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:21pm
Nausheen that is probably the best explanation I have received, in YEARS....
Although I have serval position rgearding some of the Madhabs I do believe a sign of one who is trying to improve their Iman is that they make errors whether in lawand philosophy so that they may improve on their faith.
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Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:59pm
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To say this tread has been derailed is an understatement, but how interesting it has become. Anyway, once my internet dsl line went down and I called for repair. There were three male technicians and one female technician in my office all trying to get me back online. They worked for about two hours until finally the problem was solved. Everyone was ecstatic about solving the problem. All male repair staff upon leaving were joking and smiling and shook my hand. At this time I was also of the opinion that shaking hands was not permissible, but just couldn't bring myself, given the situation, to not acknowledge the efforts of the female, who like her counterparts, worked hard at getting my office back online. So when she extended her hand like the others I did shake her hand also. I was happy some years later to read the fatwa of Qaradawi. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 12:22am
:) Honestly, you can never keep a thread in a forum strictly topic-wise. If a thread is about apples, the discussion will naturally grow into one about oranges. . . and as long as the discussion is about fruits, its ok
 I think everything we talked about here relates to muslim women, so alls good!
Brother, could you pl share the Qaradawi Fatwa? I'd like to know more.
My view is the same as Sis Nausheen, Israfil & Abuayisha's. . . I personally try not to shake hands with opp gender, and if the male in question is a Muslim, I do not feel awkward/embarrassed to decline. Bcz I expect a muslim man, no matter how ignorant, to know his limits. And sometimes, I'v noticed they are just trying to show how 'westernized' or modern they are, others wanna knw how far they can push thier luck . . .
However, my attitude towards shaking hands with Non-Muslims is comparitively lenient. . . and though I will not extend my hand, but if there are ppl standing around, I will not stick my hand behind my back and say no . . .simply because I do not want to embarrass the other person in front of others, and make him look bad. . .cz it looks rude. And I do not expect all non-muslims to know that muslims dont shake hands with the opp sex, especially since it is the muslims themselves telling them 'Aww shucks, its only the extremists, im a moderate!' :-/ Especially if I'll not be meeting them again.
However when it comes to colleages at Univ, I politely explain why I dont shake hands . . .since I know I'll be coming into contact with them everyday and then will be expected to greet accordingly every single time. The only time I made an exception was an african student, because he was being given a cold-shoulder, and nobody wanted to talk to him/ sit with him etc etc. . .so I didnt wanna seem like a racist. (tho, mind you I didnt extend myself!) ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 12:50am
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
Talking about derailments, when I was moderating this used to my prime effort not to let things get side tracked - just cannot beleive how silly I was back then! Sorry to all old folks whom I caused undue distress. Once I went for an interview for a part time job of teaching english with accompanied by an iraninan friend. This guy, who would have been our boss came to interview us - two women in hijabs, was perhaps a strange sight for him in Japan - he being a westerner. He extended his hand for a shake to my friend, and she in her natural way declined saying "no sorry I wont shake hands". To this he asked why, and she said, "for family" ... those two words were her only reason - and it was so hilarious an experience for me - the guy was left totally perplexed!. D�n't really remember how the interview went, but you might have guessed by now, we did not get the job
Refusing is not such a big deal, as long as you don't explain yourself as breifly as "for family"!!
In Japan I just have to say no, sorry. It is sufficient most of the times. And the best part is that their culture is so much like ours (Indian) they do not offer a handshake in most cases. If they are doing so, its perhaps due to the reason you are a non-jap, so refusing is no big deal. I kind of feel luckier than sisters in the west who may have to go through more awkward situations in their nos.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 5:32am
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 3:07pm
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I am curious as to which madhab the Holy Prophet followed?
"So when we follow a particular madhab, then the responsibility of "justification" is of the scholars not us. Our responsibility is only to follow."
I am also curious as to the daleel of this statement. Is it in The Quran or a Hadith?
39:17 Those who eschew Evil,- and fall not into its worship,- and turn to Allah (in repentance),- for them is Good News: so announce the Good News to My Servants,-
39:18 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.
17:36 (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart--of each of these it will be asked.
2:166 Then would those who are followed clear themselves of those who follow (them) : They would see the penalty, and all relations between them would be cut off.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 8:41pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
If one is to follow those who have no knowledge, or those who are professing things that are contrary to sharia, then some of the above quotes apply. Fortunately, or unfortunately we were discussing the four sunni Imam, who are far from the qualifications of these people. The basis of our religion is ittiba. Because Allah has said that if any want to reach Allah through any route except the following of Rasul sallallahu alaihe wasalla, their efforts will be rejected - thus Allah has raised his (sallallahu alaihe wasallam) rank by making him the door to His nearness. Further, in a hadith it is mentioned that prphet sallallahu alaihe wasallam said that his heirs are the ulema from his umma.
In another hadith it is said that if one does a bad deed and others follow, the punishment of the one who initiated the bad deed is sum of punishments of all those who followed him. On the other hand, one who leads or guides others to way of Allah, his reward is the sum of rewards of all those who follow. This can be further emphasised by the hadith which says that teaching an act of sunna is sadqa-e-jariya, ie a charity the reward of which one will continue to reap as long as people continue to act on his teachings.
and Allah knows best.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:43am
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17:36 (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart--of each of these it will be asked.
I would say that The Holy Quran is telling us that it is our responsibility NOT to blindly follow anyone, unless we are knowledgeable about what they are saying, because we will be asked about this on the Day of Judgement.
The four madhabs did not exist at the time of The Prophet, nor at the time of the sahaba, not until about two hundred years after the death of The Prophet in the third century of Islam.
As a former Christian I find that any talk of blind following makes me extremely uncomfortable. Imams, scholars, even The Prophets were just men. To raise any man to a point where you give him blind obedience without any question is a dangerous path. That is how The Prophet Jesus became divine, and how other religions have gone wrong.
Allah has stated numerous times in The Quran that we should seek knowledge, that we alone are responsible for our actions, and from the Ayat above that we should not blindly follow. Why would any Muslim still choose to do so? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 12:20am
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
SA, you have mixed a few concepts together. 1. Following a lay person and following a scholar is not the same thing.
2. We are not talking about following a whole new religion. Nor are there any disagreements regarding the essentials of religion.
The matter is not about God is or is not. Or If there is one god or onethousand and one. Or which prophet should be followed. Or one should face the Kaba or something else in prayer .... about the essentials of religion if anyone differes in opinion he is a separate sect, and he should not be followed.
In minor issues where there is room for a difference of opinion, like how long should the beard be, how high should the trousers be, whether your hands should be folded on the chest or the belly button during the intention of prayer, should you or should you not wipe on the socks .... and the list is pretty long.
If we don't have scholars, everyone will be giving out fatwas, and there will be chaos. Well, we do see this phenomenon taking predominance in our times, but the majority of ummah still stays with the madhabs.
Those who refute the madhabs are very few as compared to the total muslim population - and I must add - but they have a loud voice.
From the time of the Sahabas, if people were unsure about any such issues, they used one of the following courses, a) they asked someone who was known to be knowledgeable in the matter, b) they searched the issue themselves.
Depending on this knowledgeable scholar was called taqleed. Searching the matter by oneself is called Ijtihad.
Both methods have been valid till date.
3. Not following a scholar is a must for a person who is eligible to do his own ijtiahd.
4. One who does not have enough knowledge and training to do his own ijtihad, his taqleed should be rejected. If you do not, your responsible for your actions.
5. If you do not have enough knowledge and training to do your own ijtihad, but you still follow only your own ijtihad, it is no different from following the taqleed of another who does not have knowledge (case 4). Again you will be responsible for your actions.
In the 3-4 century AH Some knowledgeable scholars lifted the burden of individual ijtihad from the shoulders of majority in the ummah, by forming schools of thought.
Majority of the muslim ummah went with them, because that made matters easy, and allowed the non-ulema to devote on other life issues.
However the process of researching the deen and refinging the veiws on the minor issues did not stop. In fact it is going on untill today. If any two people are to study sincerely and devotedly the proofs on certain matter they are going to arrive at difference of opinion, because there are matters in our religion where there is room for this.
The only thing is, when a person does a sincere and devoted research on certain matters, he realises that he is inclined to a certain position, although the position of the other sincere and devoted researcher cannot be rejected altogether.
Those who reject the madhabs altogether are not sincere and devoted in their research, rather quite the opposite of it.
You have said: "When you are not knowledgeable about what they are saying do not follow them"
If YOU are not knowledgeable about what the four Imams are saying you don't know if they are correct or not. The better and more cautious way is to "find out what they are saying". They did not exist till the 3rd century AH does not mean whatever they are saying is wrong. This argument is faulty in its essence.
Because even when schools of thought did not exist, there were scholars, and people asked them for guidance. Omar Ibn al-khattab is know to have been giving fatwas.
People did ask Ibn Abbas regarding interpretations of ayah.
Muadh bin Jabal was asked by people of yemen to teach them Islam - people did depend on others to teach them - this practice is as old as Islam.
Only thing that is new, is a challenge on madhabs. This challenging of the credibility of scholars and the madhabs is a fitna of our times. Worse still is that it is thrown by people who know the least about these Imams. And the madhabs came into existence in the 3-4 AH means they have been around for about 1000 years, but this particular type of challenging of the madhabs is as new as the oil money of middle east.
Those who informed you that madhabs are wrong have attempted to misguide you.
It is one of the signs of the end of times that which is wrong will appear correct and that which is correct will appear wrong - this is happening to many people.
If you do wish to research the matter here is a good book.
http://www.cometoislam.com/fiqh/legal/main.htm - http://www.cometoislam.com/fiqh/legal/main.htm
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 7:09pm
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"In the 3-4 century AH Some knowledgeable scholars lifted the burden of individual ijtihad from the shoulders of majority in the ummah, by forming schools of thought."
Sister, I am not sure where Allah gave these men the right to take individual ijtihad from anyone's shoulders when The Quran made it very clear that each individual is responsible for their own actions.
Before the madhabs existed Muslims studied and learned and gained knowledge of their own accord. yes, they may have asked questions of someone who had more knowledge, but that person did not make up their minds for them. Nor were they dissuaded from searching and reasoning on their own. During this period Islam and Muslims flourished in the sciences, literature, mathematics, critical thinking. Muslims were encouraged to have their own thoughts, not restricted within the limitations of those who thought for them.
To say that the only thing that is new is a challenge to the madhabs is incorrect, as the madhabs themselves are an innovation that did not exist at the time of The Prophet, nor is there mention of them in The Quran. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 4:45am
There is also a Sahih Hadith that says that a muslim should not believe/accept anything (news/rumour) immediately on hearing unless they have confirmed its authencity or reliability. . . I'd say that goes especially for religion.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart--of each of these it will be asked. Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:38am
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I was thinking about this a lot last night. It has really bothered me because the statement that all we have to do is follow and not question is so diametrically opposed to what I believe Islam teaches.
Sister Nausheen, when you say that I am mixing concepts I beg to differ. I see little difference in being told that all I have to do is believe Jesus died for my sins and Jesus will take responsibility for those sins, and being told that the madhabs will tell me what to do and all I have to do is follow, the sin if they are wrong falls on them. Both take away personal responsibility and suppress freedom of thought.
So many times I have heard Muslims say, indeed post here, that there are no middle men between man and Allah. That Islam teaches that we will be paid for our own deeds, good and bad. Yet, you are saying that the madhabs have taken the responsibility for our ignorance from us and by merely following them they will accept the payment for my sins if what they told me to do is wrong. Where is my responsibility in this equation? If Allah told all Muslims to seek knowledge, read, learn, be responsible for your deeds because you will be answering for them on the Day of Judgement, how can I claim ignorance and blind following as an excuse?
There is a huge difference between learning from someone, a scholar, who has more knowledge than you, the concept being that once you learn you will use that knowledge to make up your own mind, and allowing a scholar to tell you what and what not to do and you just doing what he says without verifying that what he has told you is correct. Especially since we have the means and the ability: intelligence and common sense, to verify its validity.
Perhaps I am rejecting the madhabs, I am certain I am rejecting the notion that I can choose to blindly follow someone yet not be held responsible for that choice if what they tell me is incorrect. I have still made the choice of blind obedience when I could have just as easily chosen to research and verify. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 9:55pm
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
SA, I began to respond to your comments, but realized I was repeating myself on what I said in former post. Thus decided to stop. Because either I am not very good in conveying concepts or this will take a while for you to absorb. Many points that you have raised above can be understood if you re-read my post above. Wanted to say that the criterion of accepting or rejecting something should not be based on "hey that sounds very christian to me". Rather analyse the concept. I saw a similar comment from you on the book I refered to in another thread. It was recommended to me by my teacher (muslim) who said that 70% of the akhlaq taught in this book is close to islam. - So if one is a well read muslim will know how to seive things.
I am not a revert, yet I know there is no end to learning in Islam. Thus its my understanding that reverts do come accross many things which either they thought never existed in Islam, or they think its a misconception.
I have a fiqh teacher who is a revert. She told us her story that the very first month she fasted in ramadan she was so excited and happy, when she met women in the eid prayer and told them she fasted the "whole" month women looked at her in surprise. One of them pulled her aside to tell women cannot fast the whole month, and to this she thought this must be a cultural thing. She said that was the point from where Allah opened her heart to learn more about the figh rulings and now she teaches.
I know reverts from this discussion board who could not accept Islam in entirity, and reverted back to christianity.
There may be many who accept the new doctrines (which have become prevalent only about 200 years ago) and others who adhere to traditional islam.
I know reverts who are erudite scholars of this age, and reverts who are spiritual guides. - so it all depends on how much one is open to learning.
If you sincerely research this concept of madhabs, the truth is as plain as day. And if you are already convinced with what you presently know nothing I write can change your mind.
So may Allah be your guide.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |