What is KUFR???

KUFR is infidelity and it is disbelieving in Allah and His messengers, whether the disbelief is associated with denial or not, rather with doubts, suspicion, aversion, jealousy, arrogance or following some whims which deters from adhering to the Message.

Greater KUFR

1.     KUFR of denial � referred to in the Quran 29:68

�And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against All�h or denies the truth (Muhammad) and his doctrine of Isl�mic Monotheism and this Qur'�n), when it comes to him? Is there not a dwelling in Hell for disbelievers (in the Oneness of All�h and in His Messenger Muhammad)?�

�And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam.". And they prostrated except Ibl�s (Satan), he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to All�h).�

�And he went into his garden while in a state (of pride and disbelief) unjust to himself. He said: "I think not that this will ever perish. And I think not the Hour will ever come, and if indeed I am brought back to my Lord, (on the Day of Resurrection), I surely shall find better than this when I return to Him." His companion said to him, during the talk with him: "Do you disbelieve in Him Who created you out of dust (i.e. your father Adam), then out of Nutfah (mixed semen drops of male and female discharge), then fashioned you into a man? But as for my part (I believe) that He is All�h, my Lord and none shall I associate as partner with my Lord�

�We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them except with truth, and for an appointed term. But those who disbelieve turn away from that whereof they are warned.�

 TL-24, thanks for your guiding input. It appears that There is many kinds of Kufr.

 The questions arise:

 1. Every one who has not uttered the Kalimah, is he a kafir?

 2. If some one (non Muslim) is given the message of Islam and explained all about it but he is not convinced and does not accept Islam. He is peaceful and says that he does not feel that Islam is right religion. Is such a person a kafir?

 3. A person believes in Allah and also believes in Moses and Jesus a.s. but does not believe in the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. Is he a kafir?

 4. A person is given the message of Islam well explained. He does not accept it and does not like it. He opposes it and tries to deny it with force and uses his time and money and weapons to stop the message and even persecutes those who have believed in the message. Is such a person a Kafir?

 5. Those who are now living in the world and they are having various religions of their own but they do not believe in the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s.  Are they all Kafirs?

 6. A person, say a Hindu, is worshipping his idols. Is he a kafir? 

Please give your best judgement in these matters, as much as you know. Reply to each situation separately. Thank you very much.

Assalam alai kum

It is a good post. I will try to answer the questions to the best of my knowledge

Question 1. Every one who has not uttered the Kalimah, is he a kafir?

Answer:  The accepting and reading of the Kalima is a must for a person to be called a Muslim and one who does not accept it is on one who rejects it and is a kafir (one who rejects).

Question 2. If some one (non Muslim) is given the message of Islam and explained all about it but he is not convinced and does not accept Islam. He is peaceful and says that he does not feel that Islam is right religion. Is such a person a kafir?

Answer: Yes any on who does not accept the truth even after it is presented to him and rejects it is a kafir (one who rejects)

 Question 3. A person believes in Allah and also believes in Moses and Jesus a.s. but does not believe in the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. Is he a kafir?

Answer:  To be called a Muslim we need to accept Allah as the only God and Mohammed (PBUH) as the Prophet of Allah. Jews accept Allah as the only God and Moses (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) as the Prophets of Allah but do not accept Mohammed (PBUH) as the Prophet of Allah and they are not Muslims.

Similarly, Christians accepts Allah as the Only God,  Moses (PBUH) as Prophet of but made Jesus (PBUH) as the Son of God and do not accept Mohammed (PBUH) as the Prophet of Allah and they are not called Muslims.

 Question 4. A person is given the message of Islam well explained. He does not accept it and does not like it. He opposes it and tries to deny it with force and uses his time and money and weapons to stop the message and even persecutes those who have believed in the message. Is such a person a Kafir?

Answer:  Yes he is a Kafir and we are required to conduct Jihad against him.

Question 5. Those who are now living in the world and they are having various religions of their own but they do not believe in the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s.  Are they all Kafirs?

Answer :  See answer 3.

Question 6. A person, say a Hindu, is worshipping his idols. Is he a kafir? 

Answer:  This person is associating partners to Allah and and doing Shirk. Since he does not accept Allah as the only God and Mohammad (PBUH) as the Prophet of Allah he is a kafir.

Assalamo Alaykum Wr Wb

Kufr means infidel. One who hides or covers up the truth.

1.  Every one who has not uttered the Kalimah, is he a kafir?

Yes, he is a kuffar. Kuffar are those who don�t believe in Allah after knowing the truth, that does not testify to His Oneness as the Quran says:

All�h bears witness that L� il�ha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He is always) maintaining His creation in Justice. L� il�h illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. Truly, the religion with All�h is Isl�m. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ay�t (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of All�h, then surely, All�h is Swift in calling to account.  Quran 3:18-19

The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in All�h, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)."  Quran 2:285

Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of All�h and of the angels and of mankind, combined. They will abide therein (under the curse in Hell), their punishment will neither be lightened, nor will they be reprieved.  Quran 2:161-162

�And believe in what I have sent down (the Quran) confirming that which is with you, [the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel)], and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and buy not with My Verses [the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel)] a small price (i.e. getting a small gain by selling My Verses), and fear Me and Me Alone.  And mix not truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth [i.e. Muhammad Peace be upon him is Allah�s Messenger and his qualities are written in your Scriptures, the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you know (the truth) �. Quran 3:41-42.

�Say (O Muhammad): "Obey All�h and the Messenger (Muhammad)." But if they turn away, then All�h does not like the disbelievers.� Quran 3:32

�Verily, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (men) from the Path of All�h, and so will they continue to spend it; but in the end it will become an anguish for them. Then they will be over come. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto Hell.� Quran 8:36

�Beautified is the life of this world for those who disbelieve, and they mock at those who believe. But those who obey All�h's Orders and keep away from what He has forbidden, will be above them on the Day of Resurrection. And All�h gives (of His Bounty, Blessings, Favours, Honours, etc. on the Day of Resurrection) to whom He wills without limit� Quran 2:212

�And (remember) when Luqm�n said to his son when he was advising him: "O my son! Join not in worship others with All�h. Verily! Joining others in worship with All�h is a great Z�lm (wrong) indeed. Quran 31;13

�This is the Guidance of All�h with which He guides whomsoever He will of His slaves. But if they had joined in worship others with All�h, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them.� Quran 6:88

 Thanks. My questions were modified and no answer was given for question No.3. I had asked "is he a kafir" The reply was that he is not a muslim. It has not been told about that person if he is a kafir. Does it mean that every one who is not a Muslim is a Kafir? I hope not. Anyhow....

 Replies have been  given to other questions after changing the text. I had asked "every one who has not recited the Kalimah, is he a kafir?" Of course we don't know if any one had presented the Kalimah to that person, say in remote area of Afrikah, it was a general question about all people who had not recited the Kalimah for any reason. Are they kafirs? I hope not all of them are kafirs.

 TL-24 has tried to support the answers with long references. That was not needed yet. Only short clear replies were needed. Then if need be, i could request for the supporting proof. So short clear replies of YES or NO may please be given again.

 There is no need to alter the wording of the question. Just try to present the question in original, understand it and then reply. Thanks again.

Assalam alai kum

Truth_light24 Masha Allah your answers with the support of Qur'an were very informative and this shows how important Qur'an is to you as a guide from Allah.  Surely Qur'an is the criteria (Furqan) which clearifies the truth forrm the falsehood, the right from the wrong.

Keep it up and May Allah grant you more knowledges and wisdom

Ameen

The answer is "Yes, they are Kaffir!"  but if people comes from remote places never heard about Islam, Allahu Alam.

To me, all the circumstances you presented is obviously very clear ones...they are kaffir.

. May Allah swt bless you sister.

Islam does not distinguish between an Arab or non-Arab as the prophet said :

�We are all equal as the teeth of a comb. An Arab is no better than a non-Arab, the white over the black, men over women but the noblest one in the Eye of Allah is the pious one�.  

So Islam belongs to those who believe in it, adhere to what Allah�s command and abstain to what He forbids. He can either read the Arabic text or not, or speak the language or not, what important is he believes in the Oneness of Allah by practicing the 5 Pillars of Islam and sincerely believe in the 6 Articles of Faith. It is an individual choice, to elect to become a Muslim or not for he himself will carry the burden of his acts.

The acts of Shirk and kufr nullifies all the good deeds that we do because it is a gross injustice to Allah. And if we die in that state, Allah will ban us from Jannah and will throw us to the Hellfire forever. As what He (Allah) said in the Quran:

� Where they to commit shirk, then the good deeds, which they accomplished would have been nullified� Quran 6:88

�Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Isa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Isa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong�doers) there are no helpers.� Quran 5:72

As'Salamu Alaikum,

Sometimes we believers do commit kufr. Here are the notes which explain us the term kufr, its characteristics ---- Hope we shall all learn from it.

Kufr and its characteristics:

For the Believers there are certain essential beliefs and practices, the source of which have been established with absolute certainty (Tawaatur ) the certainty of such beliefs and practices is of such an absolute degree that there does not admit the slightest doubt. These beliefs and practices are called Dhurooriyaati Deen. Belief in all of them is Fardh (Obligatory), denial of any of them amounts to Kufr (Rejection) even if  is a Mustahaab act such as using Miswaak. Although Miswaak is a Sunnah and not Fardh, to deny that is part of Deen, that is, deny the Sunnah is Kufr.

The Dhurooriyaati Deen (Essentials of the Deen consist of Ahkaam (Laws and rules) covering all aspects of life and all categories. What is Fard (Obligatory) what is Waajib (Absolutely necessary) Haraam (What is unlawful), Halaal (What is Lawful) Mubah (That which is   merely permissible to do), Mustahaab (that which is praiseworthy but not mandatory to do) etc. About the Essentials of the Deen we should understand that: 

1. It is Fardh to believe in every belief and practice that constitutes an Essential of the Deen even if such practices are Sunnah, Mustahaab, and Nafl etc.

2. Denial of any of the essentials of Deen. practices or beliefs is Kufr.

3. Neglecting or discarding any Fardh, Waajib or Sunnatul Muakkada is not Kufr if one still believes them to be correct and accepts them as essential. This person becomes a Fasiq (One who knowingly transgresses the Limits Allahu ta �ala has placed upon Mankind or neglects the Ibaadah). Such a person, though not a Kaafir, may be punished by Allahu ta ala for his transgressions if he doesn�t repent before dying.

4. Omission of a Mustahaab act is not sinful provided one believes it to be Mustahaab.

The Four Types of Kufr

There are basically four kinds of Kufr and anyone guilty of any of these types of kufr is described as a Kaafir in terms of Shari�ah. They are:

1.         Kufr Jahl

2.         Kufr Juhood

3.         Kufr Shakk

4.         Kufr Ta�weel.

Kufr Jahl:

Kufr Jahl means kufr occasioned by Ignorance. Islam or the true teachings of Islam are denied on the basis of Ignorance. The rejecter believes that Islam is false. This was the type of kufr of Abu Jahl and his compatriots.

Evidence: Suratul Maida 107

And when it is said to them: Come to what has been sent down from Allah to the Rasul. they say: Enough for us is the ways of our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were totally devoid of knowledge and guidance?

Kufr Juhood:

Kufr Juhood means deliberate kufr. The denial of Islam or its teachings done deliberately in spite of realizing its truth. This is the type of kufr of Ahli Kitaab (Jews and Christians) and Shaytaan may Allahu ta ala curse him. About this type of kufr we find a clear description in Holy Quran Suratul Baqara 89 ayah wherein Allahu ta ala says:

�And when a Book came to them from Allah, confirming what was with them, and they previously prayed for help to overcome the unbelievers, when what they recognized came to them, they disbelieved in it (Became Kuffar); and the Curse of Allah is on the Kafireen.

Al Imaam Tabari Rahmatullah alaihi reports in his Tafsir �Jami� al bayaan �an Ta�weel ay Al Quran� that Hazrat Ibn Abbas Rathiallahu anhu says about this ayat (whose source is Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim):

The Jews used to pray for the help of Muhammad Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim, before he was sent, to overcome the Aus and Khazraj. But when Allahu ta ala sent him from among the Arabs. they disbelieved in him and disclaimed what they had been saying about him. Then Hazrat Mu�adh bin Jabal and Bishr ibn al Baraa lbn Marur Rathiallahu ta �ala anhum ajmain, one of Banu Salma (Tribe) said to them: �0 community of Jews, fear Allah and embrace Islam. You used to pray for Muhammad�s (Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim) help to overcome us when we were polytheists and tell us that he would be sent, and you described him to us.� Then Salaam ibn Mishkam, one of the Banu An Nadeer. (one of the Jews) said:  �He brought us nothing we recognize and he is not the one we used to mention to you.� So Allah sent down about what they said. �And when a book came to them from Allah, confirming what was with them, and they previously prayed for help to overcome the unbelievers, when what they recognized came to them, the disbelieved (Committed Kufr) in it; and the Curse of Allah is on the Kafireen.

About the Kufr of the Christians, their kufr is deliberate as they are mentioned in Suratul A�raaf ayah 157 wherein Allahu ta ala says:

�Those who follow the Rasulun Nabiyy the Ummi who they find mentioned in their Books, the Taurah and Injeel: For he Commands to what is Correct and Prohibits corruption ( evil ); he allows them what is Halaal and Tayyib and prohibits them the Khabaaith the bad and impure ); he releases them from the yoke that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him (Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim) and honour him and help him and follow the noor sent down with him, they are the Muflihoon (Successful).

Kufr Shakk:

Kufr Shakk is kufr occasioned by doubting the truthfulness of Islam and because of their doubts they reject Islam and thereby are Kuffar considered Kuffar. About this group of Kuffar Allahu ta ala says In Suratul Baqara ayah 23:

And if you are in doubt (Rayb) with what we have sent down to our Servant, then produce a Surah similar to it, and call your witnesses apart from Allah, if you are sadiqeen. (truthful in speech)

In the Tafsir of Al Imam Tabari we read:

�if you o polytheist Arabs. and the unbelievers among the people of the scripture are in doubt about the light, the clear demonstration, and the verses of Furqaan which We have sent down to Our Servant Muhammad (Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim). that it is from Me, that It is I who have sent it down to him, them produce a proof that will refute his proof. For you know that everyone who has Prophethood proves the truth of his claim to it by producing a demonstration, the like of which no creature is able to produce.�

In the very next ayah Allahu ta �ala tells the doubters that they 9 will not be able to produce a Surah the like of which they doubted had come down to Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim from Allahu ta ala. Their inability to produce a Surah even with all their helpers manifest the truth of the Holy Last Nabi Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim. Allahu ta �ala further announces the punishment to face them by saying:

And if you do not, and you never will, then fear the fire whose fuel is men and stone, prepared for the Kafireen.

Kufr Ta�weel:

Kufr Ta�weel is kufr by way of interpretation. The kufr is not done through outright rejection of Islamic principles or beliefs, it is done by distorting or giving a meaning other than that which the established meaning giving to it by Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim. Qur�anic ayaah and Ahadith are given meanings which conflict with the true and original meaning as explained by Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim. For this reason we are not allowed to give out our own opinion or understanding of Ayaah of Holy Qur�an and Hadith. By means of Ta�weel, many who were born Muslim or who have converted to Islam have become Kuffar. In Mishkaat Shareef we read:

Ibn Abbas Rathiallahu anhu reported that Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim said: Whoever interprets the Qur�an according to his opinion (Ra�yah)? let him seek his abode in the fire.� (Tirmidhi)

Further Allahu ta �ala says about Kufr Ta�weel, Suratul Ali �Imraan 7 ayaah;

He is the One who sent down to you the book. In it are ayaah muhkamaatun (With a clear established meaning), they are Ummul Kitaab (mother of the book), and others are allegorical (mutashaabihah). But those who have perverted hearts follow the allegorical seeking to cause fitna and seeking it�s hidden meaning Ta�weel ) and none knows the Ta�weel except Allah. And those who are really knowledgeable say: �We believe in it. all of it is from our Rabb; and none mind except men of understanding.

Further proof of the incorrectness of Ta�weel of Quran based upon 10 personal opinion (Ta�weel Bir Ray) is the well known ahadith in the Sahih of Imaam Muslim �Kitaab ul �Ilm wherein Hazrat Ummmahaatul Mu�mineen Hazrat Aisha Siddiqah Rathiallahu anha reported that Rasulullah Sallallahu alaihi we sallim recited the above mentioned ayaah and commenting on it said that when you see those who go by the figurative (mutashaabihah) know that they have gone astray and avoid them.

Types of Kuffar:

As we have attempted to prove with decisive proof, every person who is not a Muslim or mu�min is described in Shari�ah as a Kaafir, every one of them. There are several types of Kuffar:

1. The Munafiq who verbally attests with the tongue (Iqraaru Bil Lisaan) but not with the heart (Tasdiq Bil Qalb). Both must be present in a person to qualify as a Muslim or believer.

2. The Murtadh (Apostate or Renegade) is the person who after accepting Islam renounces his acceptance because of doubt, etc.

3. The Mushrik who associates something else as a partner with Allahu ta �ala or believes that other things have power and ability independent of Allahu ta �ala.

4. The Kitaabi, who follows a previously revealed book which Islam abrogates such as the Christians and the Jews. (see Kufr Juhood).

5. The Dahriyyah are those who believe in the eternity of time and attribute the creation to time. These are those who believe in dialectical materialism (Marxist�Leninists), as well as those who subscribe to the big bang theory of the universe and the origin of the species as propounded by Charles Darwin.

6. The Muattil is the one who outright denies the existence of Allahu ta �ala otherwise known as the atheist.

7. The Zindeeq is the person who acknowledges the Prophethood of Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim and proclaims belief in all the principles and beliefs of Islam nonetheless hold beliefs which are unanimously branded as kufr in the Shari�ah. A Zindeeq would be the individual who though claiming to believe in Paradise and Hell believe these to simply be spiritual states of existence and not a physical reality on the day of Judgement.

Acts which nullify Iman:
Certain acts nullify Imaan just as water quenches fire. We should be very careful about doing or uttering anything which is beyond our knowledge as well as refrain from giving any interpretations of Holy Qur�an and Hadith not based on sound Tafsir. Below we list a few people who by their wrong beliefs or actions fall into the category of Kaafir. (see �The 4 types of kufr)

1. A person who believes in a Nabi ( Prophet ) after Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim, thereby rejecting Khaatamun Nabuwaat (Finality of Prophethood ) of The Holy Last Messenger, Prophet Muhammad Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim.

2. One who believes that anyone from among men or jinn be they an Angel or a Prophet with message, is equal or superior to Rasulullah Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim.

3. One who believes that the Office of Prophethood can be acquired by disciplining and purifying the animal desires (Taskiyat wa Tasfiyat tun Naf s).

4. One who claims he has received Wahi (Divine Revelation) even if he doesn�t claim to be a prophet. (Not to be confused with Ilhaam i.e. pure inspired thoughts from Allahu ta �ala as some Auliyah receive).

5. One who denies the Miracles of the Prophets outright or by way of interpretation (Ta�wil).

6. One who refuses to believe that followers of other religions are Kuffar even though Allahu ta clearly states this. (Ali �Imraan (3) 85 Ayaah)

7. One who claims that the Khulafaahir Rashideen are Kaafir or Murtadh (renegades) are themselves Kaafir.

8. One who shows reverence to other religious practices, by the wearing of their religious symbols (cross, ankh etc.) or by sharing in their customs (Christmas, kwanza etc.)?

9. One who expresses satisfaction of any statement of .Kufr or considers anything of the Kuffar to be superior to that ordered by Allahu ta �ala.

10. One who utters kufr even in jest unless under compulsion of necessity (torture etc.).

11. One who slanders any of the Prophets or Messengers or claims that they committed sins.

12. One who makes Halaal Haraam or makes Haraam Halaal.

13. One who denies that Allahu ta �ala is as He has described Himself through his Names and Qualities (Asmaa was Sifaat).

14. One who finds fault, or makes light of any teaching of Islam.

15. One who claims a belief in the Unity of Religions, that is, that all of them are true and leading to Allahu ta ala and are just different ways leading the One. 

Conclusion:

Finally, The gist of the matter is that all forms of transgression and disobedience are types of kufr implying ingratitude, because gratitude requires compliance and obedience. Therefore, human endeavor could be manifest in gratitude, or in kufr, or in something other than the two. Only Allah knows what is in the heart of everyone

We pray that Allahu ta ala grants us all the fruit of true Imaan and allow us to remain amongst those who are truly Ahli Sunnah Wal Jamaat.

Our Rabb Do Not cause our hearts to deviate after you have guided us aright and grant us Rahmat, Indeed you are the Most liberal Giver [Ale Imran Ayah 7 ]

 These are man made ideas or extracts from the man made books. The scholars or some persons feel that it is so. Kufr needs some intentional bad activity against islam. A kafir is a definite non believer in Islam. He may be a passive or active non believer. A passive non believer does not harm any one.

 If the word Kafir or kufr is taken very lightly as a smple minor thing then what is quoted above by Seeks can be true. But it is not so. Kufr is a very serious thing. According to Seeks, any one who does not believe that Miswaak is essential is also a Kaafir. If this principle is followed then we will have many kaafirs around us, almost all the Ummah will be some kind of kaafir.

Seeks had the following too:

 6. One who refuses to believe that followers of other religions are Kuffar even though Allahu ta clearly states this. (Ali �Imraan (3) 85 Ayaah)

 I have examined the verse 3:85. There is nothing about Kufr there and no word of Kufr is there. That verse only states that if any one will present (or adopt) any religion other than Islam, it will not be acceptable to Allah.

 I am posting that enmity (intentional enmity) against Islam is essential for Kufr. If there is no such enmity and activity against Islam then there is no Kufr. That is, willing disregard of Islam and disbelief and opposition to Islam to up root it, That is Kufr.

 But the friends here have got many small kinds of Kufr too. So well with them.

 According to Seeks, any one who does not believe that Miswaak is essential is also a Kaafir. If this principle is followed then we will have many kaafirs around us, almost all the Ummah will be some kind of kaafir.

My dear brother, I hope you agree that Kufr means disbelief. Lets continue with the same example of Miswaak. Suppose if a muslim, knows that it is sunnah to use Miswak, but does not practice it because of some reasons like carelessness etc, then it is not Kufr, but weakness of faith. But if he rejects this sunnah, saying that why shud i practice it ---or deny it -- etc then it is Kufr. Hope you did understand this concept. One who rejects Quran and sunnah, and disbelieves it then he is also commiting kufr, though he shall still be under the folds of Islam. Such muslims are either called faasiq or faajir.

 I have examined the verse 3:85. There is nothing about Kufr there and no word of Kufr is there. That verse only states that if any one will present (or adopt) any religion other than Islam, it will not be acceptable to Allah

 Its just below this verse {85}, refer verse 86

 "How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the Messenger is true and after clear proofs came to them And Allah guides not the people who are wrongdoers" - These type of people are kaafir.

That is, willing disregard of Islam and disbelief and opposition to Islam to up root it, That is Kufr.

That is also a type a kufr. Not the only Kufr. As explained in the notes above, even we muslims commit kufr. Did you notice that brother.

 [3:85] And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him, and, in the Hereafter he shall be among the losers.

 Please see the verses of the Surah Aal Imran, above. Read them. They are only referring to the people of the books. These verses are about the Jews and the christians.  I do not believe that  the Jews and the Christians are Kaafirs. They are a separate category called Ahle Kitab. Not all of them are Kaafir.

 Only those who oppose the religion of Islam with time,money and weapons are Kaafir. They are those people who had bellieved and then later they disbelieved and increased in their disbelief. That is something serious. That is Kufr.

It is true that the Kufr starts from mere disbelief. The first step is disbelief i.e. not agreeing to the message. But if the person stops at that, it maybe alright. He says that he does not understand Islam and he does not believe in Islam. That is alright.

 But if he enters into another field of not believing and not allowing any one to believe, i.e. not allowing any peace to the believers, that is Kufr. That is enmity with Islam. I had posted that Abu jehl is a good example of a Kaafir. So is Al Shaitaan, the dare devil. Inna Hu lakum A'aduwwum Mubeen.  (Also see verse 12:5). The dare devil is a manifest enemy of mankind. The word A'aduw (enemy) is there with that kaafir (al shaitaan).

 More in next post,soon.

 Also, please try to remember the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. in Makkah and  Madinah. There were believers (Momineen) and dis-believers (non-Momineen) and Mushrikeen and Munkireen and kaafireen and people of the books. There were many Mushrikeen, nearly all of them. But not all of them were Kaafir.

There was a person of Makkah who fully armed in company with his sons, came to the help of the prophet s.a.w.s. when the prophet was returning from his mission to Taif (hill station 86 Km from Makkah). He wanted to enter his city (Makkah) and needed help and support (cover) to enter. The prophet sent a message to that good man for permission and support to enter the city of Makkah in peace. That person (I forget the name) responded to the call of the prophet s.a.w.s. He was not a believer (Momin). Would you say that he was a kaafir? Also, would you say that the prophet s.a.w.s. would ask help from a kaafir??

 Also, about the christian king of Ethopia, north Afrika. He was not a Momin. He had never heard about Islam. He helped the oppressed migrant Muslims of Makkah. When the lords of Makkah went to Ethopia to claim the custody of those migrants, the non-momin king did not allow to give up those Muslim refugees. He had not believed in Muhammad s.a.w.s. According to you that king must have been a kaafir (at least at that time). Please try to understand that a Kaafir is a non-believer, a strict non-believer, rather an enemy of the believers.

 That is what I read and see in the Quran. I do not suggest the other friends to agree to me. They can believe what they like. I will also come over to their side when i am convinced that every one disagreeing slightly with the religion is a kaafir. Good-Bye, but keep trying to help me about who is really a kaafir.

 Let us say, I am living in Germany or India. MY next door neighbor is a christian or a Hindu. Surely, he is non-believer (non-momin). He is a good neighbor. His relations with me are excellent. So is his general morale. He has never uttered the Kalimah Shahadah.

But he is not my enemy and I do not see him active against my religion i.e. Islam. He is busy with his own daily affairs and practices his own religious rituals. He is otherwise a completely peaceful person.

I ask you "Is he a Kaafir?" and should I deal with him as with a kaafir? Please help.

2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians <>Asad(2,49)^[49] -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. <>Asad(2,50)[50]

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Believers:on them is no fear nor shall they grieve] [Believers:rewarded] [Christians:believers rewarded] [Fear ( none for the Righteous ):or for Believers] [Jews:among them some believe] [People of the Book:among them are those who believe] [Sabians]

Inna allatheena amanoo waallatheena hadoo waalnnasara waalssabieena man amana biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri waAAamila salihan falahum ajruhum AAinda rabbihim wala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona

As'Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,

First of all let me clear that Kafir is n't a word of abuse, as most of  think so. It is a term used for disbelievers. We need to call them or saluate them by it.

Coming to the verse sis Maryah wished  to be discussed

2 - 62. Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (Sabi'in), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

Sister, before going to that verse, lets us go thru the gyst of the verse 61 in which Allah  described the condition  and punishment  of those who defy His commands, fall into His prohibitions and transgress set limits by committing prohibited acts and then in this verse Allah  stated that the earlier nations who were righteous and obedient received the rewards for their good deeds. This shall be the case, until the Day of Judgment.

Those Jews and christians before the Prophethood of Muhammad {Sallal lahu Alahi wasallam}, who believed in One God and did righteous deeds are rewarded and for such followers is the good news. You must be knowing that there were no Prophets or messengers  between Isa AS and Muhammad {sallal lahu alaihi wa sallam} It is referred to those Jews , christians and Sabians.

Here am refering to the Tafseer {commentary} wherein  Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, was asked about this verse.He said that this verse {of which we were discussing}  was revealed first and then , "And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers" was revealed. This was final and clear Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.

 Let us say, I am living in Germany or India.

{ Brother we assume you to be in Germany, Aap wahi'n teek ho  }

 MY next door neighbor is a christian or a Hindu. Surely, he is non-believer (non-momin). He is a good neighbor. His relations with me are excellent. So is his general morale. He has never uttered the Kalimah Shahadah.

But he is not my enemy and I do not see him active against my religion i.e. Islam. He is busy with his own daily affairs and practices his own religious rituals. He is otherwise a completely peaceful person.

I ask you "Is he a Kaafir?" and should I deal with him as with a kaafir? Please help.

Brother, at first we need to make it clear in our minds that Kaafir is n't a term of abuse. Why do we picture that they are our enemies or we are there enemies.  Does Islam not teach us to be good to even non-muslims. Even if your neighbour is bad to you, be good to him. There are many incidents during Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alaihi wasallam} which teach us to be good  and kind to them. Quran also conveys the same message. We are  n't to hate them.

Answering to your question , "Is he a Kaafir". Yes , he is. Am sure , he must have heard of  our Prophet { Whole world knows this personality now}. Does he not dis-believe. If suppose an American works  in an Arab country, but still is he  not stated as " a non-Arab". Do they call him Arab ? No ! Similarly, kafir is n't term of  any sort of abuse, but used for disbelievers. Hope you understood.

 You shud deal with him kindly and honestly. If you really care of him so much, try to convey the teachings of Islam with Hikmah. When we try  our best to be a practicing muslim by following Quran and SUNNAH, he himself shall start up. For instance, if you start up by practicing sunnah of  beard, his impression that bearded men are wrong or terrorist shall wipe out, because you are kind to him and good to him as before. He shall them slowly ask  you questions pertaining to Islam. You can then explain him and deal with  hikmah. 

It does n't mean when he is a kafir, that we do not share our foods with them, or hate them. Just move on and be mindful of Islam too.

 Your reply is mixed up. You have said that neighbor is a kafir. In the end you said that even if he is a kafir I should deal well with him.... I cannot understand you. Please see your words:

Answering to your question , "Is he a Kaafir". Yes , he is.

 It does n't mean when he is a kafir, that we do not share our foods with them, or hate them. Just move on and be mindful of Islam too.

 What you are trying to convey to me is a dual carriage. Please understand that Islam is not limited to your standards. I shall Insha Allah get back soon to all of your post. I do not agree that peaceful Jews and christians and hindus are kafirs.. Also, not all those who have not accepted Islam, are kafirs. Kafir will only be the one who is active in damaging the message of Islam.

Your interpretation of a Kaafir is just like your Haraam. As Haraam was an ordinary term (word) for you, so is your understanding of a Kaafir. It seems it is your sort of greetings or solutation to the non muslims. Who will believe you. Please see the meaning of your things. According to you all the hindus and christians and Jews and Budhists, all of them are Kaafir. I am surprised at your definition.

Please remember that I am forbidden to preach to any kaafir (verse 6 of ch.2). It has no effect and it is no use. That is the words of Quran. But you want me to think of my neighbor as a Kaafir and then at the same time I should start preaching to him. While he may have had quite a good dialogue with you already and may never listen to me.

 Your interpretation of the verse 2:62 is also not correct. But you have some scholar of Hadith as your backbone. I will restrain myself to the actual text of the Quran and if matter is not understood then we will look to some scholar. I am sure that you have perverted (spolied)  the good message of the verse 2:62. But let us discuss things in good faith. Thanks..Please no bad feelings.

 Thanks for asking. I believe that a kaafir is the one to whom the message of islam ahs been given in a very good peaceful way. He understands the message but decides not to accept it. Then  he feels that he should oppose that message. So he goes around trying to work against that peaceful message of Islam and tries even to spend his money and time to annihilate the message  of islam. He also is ready to persecute the Muslims and ready to go to war against them.

 I cannot fully present the picture of a kaafir here. Please just think that enmity is one good word to describe a kaafir. That is the enmity of Islam. If there is no enmity of Islam then he is not  a kaafir. Let him be anything. He will not be a Kaafir. Of course he is a disbeliever but not a simple disbeliever. He is an antagonist working against islam.

 I have said that Abu Jehl was a good example of a Kaafir. Also, all those people who fought wars against the prophet s.a.w.s. and opposed his message were all kaafirs. Such a person could be one of the Jews and Hindus too. But not all Jews and Hindus enblock are kaafirs.

It needs an intention to work against Islam that makes a Kaafir. If there is no such intention to harm Islam then he is not a Kaafir. He is thena simple nonbeliever (Ghair momin).

Will you please let me know if I have described the kaafir now? I request all friends here to think over these things and follow what ever they think is right. No need to agree to me at all.

( Decided to delete the original post completely.)

minuteman, thanks for your comments.

 I have made slight changes in my last posts (corrections). Please see them too. Thanks. In the meantime, I am preparing my understanding of the verse 2:62 in reply to Seeks. Soon Insha Allah.

This verse (2:62) was presented by some one on a Shia forum. I had given the usual reply as per my understanding. But a senior member told me that I was wrong. He told me the same meaning as have been described by Seeks. It meant that this news of no fear is for the Jews of the old times that was before the prophet s.a.w.s. I had no option but to think over and accept it. It is felt that most of the Muslims also believe that the benefit of good news of no fear is not applicable to the present day Jews and Christians. They have to accept Islam to avail of this advantage. That is the general understanding.

 They say that every one has to become a Muslim to have no fear of the future. That means the good news of no fear is not there for the present day Jews and Christians. They have to accept Islam to have no fear and no grief.

 But the verse does not say that it is about the old time Jews and Christians. It was such an important issue that it should not have been left in doubt at all. Why is that?

 The translation they use is approximately as follows:

�Those who had been Momin and Those who had been Jews and Christians and Sabians, whoever believed in Allah and the last day and did good deeds, their reward will be with their Lord and they will have no fear and will not be grieved��

But the verse says, �Those who are believers and those who are Jews and Christians�. Whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good deeds�..�

 Remember that Momineen or Muslims are included in all this. And the Jews and the Christians, whoever believes in Allah. That means only the atheists are excluded. That is the benefit of mercy of the attribute Al-Raheem of Allah.

 The Mercy of Allah � Al-Raheem� is for all believers, be they Muslims or Jews or Christians. The attribute Rehman is for all living things, man and animal of all sorts, believers and disbelievers of all sorts including birds and beasts.

 The mercy of Al-Raheem is for all believers who pray to their God. That is only for mankind not for animals. The Jews and Christians are believers. Even though they do not believe in the prophet Muhammad but they are believers in a God. They deserve something.

On top of all that, there is a condition of belief in the hereafter and a condition of good deeds. What is there to stop them from benefiting from the mercy of Allah! They will believe and do good deeds and they will come closer to Islam in that way. What harm is there to Islam! There is a very important message in this verse to all people of the world that any one who will believe in a God and last day and will do good deeds will benefit. It also means that only those who create mischief will suffer. There is no fear for any of the good peaceful working people of any faith.

 That is the universal good message of peace to all nations. Remember that Muslims are included in this message. If the Jews and Christians of present day were not to benefit from it then why they are specially mentioned in this verse?? I feel that it is a good message of peace to all believers and they are exhorted to do good and not to oppose Islam in any way. That is all that is required for peaceful spread of Islam in the world.

 In that way, all the believers of all religions would come half way closer to Islam. What else do we need? The prophet s.a.w.s. did not need any trouble. He had not come to create any trouble or to present a biased religion. He was working for peace and the name of the religion is Islam. There is a message of love and peace and salvation for every one.

The term �Kafer� is an Arabic word that linguistically means the one who hides something and covers it�. But in technical terms, the �Kafer� is one who doesn�t believe in Allah or who believes in Allah but denies some of what Allah has ordered him to believe in such as: disbelieving in any of the Prophets (Blessings and peace of Allah be upon them all) or denying the existence of the resurrection or the like and has in addition to that declared his disbelief (Disbelieving in 6 Articles of faith and 5 pillars of Islam).

The Qu'ran uses the word Kufr to denote people who cover up or hide realities. The Qu'ran uses this word to identify those who denied Allah's favors by not accepting His Dominion and Authority.

In my view the word kufr is the same as a Christian calling someone a heathen. It is not a label to denote non-believer as a slur.

Answering to your question , "Is he a Kaafir". Yes , he is.

 It does n't mean when he is a kafir, that we do not share our foods with them, or hate them. Just move on and be mindful of Islam too.

 What you are trying to convey to me is a dual carriage. Please understand that Islam is not limited to your standards. I shall Insha Allah get back soon to all of your post. I do not agree that peaceful Jews and christians and hindus are kafirs.. Also, not all those who have not accepted Islam, are kafirs. Kafir will only be the one who is active in damaging the message of Islam.

Minuteman, all your posts above implicate that you have totally a wrong idea of the word kafir in your mind. Making it more simple, kafir is a term which is called as non-muslim in english. And you have complete wrong understanding of dealing with them. Insha-Allah, if time permits i shall try to explain you. Till then do let me know, from your understanding, {unpeaceful non-muslims are kaafirs}, as how to deal with them. And do let me know, how did you get this understanding of the word Kafir, that those who damage Islam are kafirs.

2:61. �And (remember) when you said, "O M�sa (Moses)! We cannot endure one kind of food. So invoke your Lord for us to bring forth for us of what the earth grows, its herbs, its cucumbers, its F�m (wheat or garlic), its lentils and its onions." He said, "Would you exchange that which is better for that which is lower? Go you down to any town and you shall find what you want!" And they were covered with humiliation and misery, and they drew on themselves the Wrath of All�h. That was because they used to disbelieve the Ay�t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of All�h and killed the Prophets wrongfully. That was because they disobeyed and used to transgress the bounds (in their disobedience to All�h, i.e. commit crimes and sins).�

Minuteman said

�Those who had been Momin and Those who had been Jews and Christians and Sabians, whoever believed in Allah and the last day and did good deeds, their reward will be with their Lord and they will have no fear and will not be grieved��

But the verse says, �Those who are believers and those who are Jews and Christians�. Whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good deeds�..�

 Remember that Momineen or Muslims are included in all this. And the Jews and the Christians, whoever believes in Allah. That means only the atheists are excluded. That is the benefit of mercy of the attribute Al-Raheem of Allah.

Brother, to understand a verse, we need to go thru its commentary, which gives us a good explanation as is supported by hadith. We are n't learnt person or know arabic, that we understand Quran directly. Both of us know our levels of knowledge. And we are very very far from interpreting these verses of Quran. We need to be very careful while doing so.

Coming to the understanding of the verse, Its said that jews, christians and believers --- which means those Jews who believed in Allah swt and followed Musa AS, those christians who believed in Allah and Isa AS, and those momin who believed in Allah and Muhammad [sallal lahu alaihi wasallam} . You refer to the tafseers and then do comment. Its not just muslims who are entitled to heavens but those jews and christians too who were believers then. A person needs to believe in Allah and Prophet {saws}  as its said in the Quran.

"The religion before Allah is Islam." [Surah Aal-`Imran(3), 19]

"Whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be among the losers" [Surah Aal-`Imran(3), 85]

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his Household) has said that even if Moses were alive on the earth today, he (Moses) would have no option but to follow him (Muhammad)

[Reported by Abu Dawud}

 Al-Raheem of Allah.

Remember this attribute of Allah swt is for whole humanity irrespective of any religion. But on the day of judgement, we need to fulfill the qualification for entering Jannah. It does n't mean we muslims be care free that we are entitled to Jannah. We enter there only after facing our punishments.

 Thanks for your response and that of TL24. You have your ideas supported by some Tafseer. I have seen the Tafseer Ibne Katheer. There are varying opinions about the verses, no single opinion. Why are the scholars disagreeing with each other?

 I saw the Tafseer tafheem ul Quran, chapter 24, about adultry. You also please see it. How Maudoodi sahib has given the view of different sahabis in That Tafseer. Not any one is agreeing with the other about anything. In fact Maudoodi sahib has made a mess of the matter. It is not his fault. He has pointed out that as if it was a fault of the Companions. He has not blamed any one but the way he has given the opinion of the Companions, he has in fact proved that there was no consensus in any matter about the evidence for the Zina.

 I am reading you happily. Your point is known to me and I have understood your point of view. But i am not convinced that every one is a Kafir. Your explanation of the verse 2:62 is also not right. Allah has given some benefit to the believers, But you want to take it away on some pretext. Also, you have not understood the real meaning of the word Al Raheem. That mercy is for the believers of all faiths. I have explained it quite well in my post. If they are peaceful, they benefit.

 As I said, I am honestly reading your point of view. But I am not convinced as yet. I still believe that enmity is a must for Kufr. It seems that you do not read my posts properly. I had given good reason for that referring to the verses of the Quran and given some examples of the Abu jehl and the Shaitan. If you want then I will give my proof again about a Kaafir. he is not a simple non-believer. He is a staunch disbeliever bent on enmity to the truth. The peaceful Jews and Christians and any other person, whoever he may be, is not a kaafir.

Then you ask me about the non-peaceful Jews and the christians. What right have you to ask for that please? Just understand the thing (answer)  yourself. It is not difficult.

"And the (Hell)Fire will be placed in full view of the erring. And it will be said to them: "Where are those (the false gods whom you used to set up as rivals with Allah) that you used to worship?" Quran 26:91-92

"If you join others in worship with Allah, (then) surely, (all) your deeds will be in vain." Quran 39:65

"And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever." Quran 2:217

 Thanks, all very True. I am with you.

is KUFFAR and SHIRK same

You know Poga, when we do something intending to show others, instead of Allah swt, then it is also Shirk. Any act of ours if intended to show it to the people around us, like salah, or fastings or any other deed, instead of for the sake of Allah, then it is also a type of  shirk we commit. Its a very deep topic to be discussed.

By the way, minuteman, as there are no other topics going on, i was reading this again and found that you did not answer my question

From where did you get this definition  and understanding that enemity is a must  for Kufr ? Did you read it anywhere ?

 For Seeks: Your question, where did I read that about Kufr. It is difficult to remember now. But may I ask you few things:

 1. Is Shaitan a kaafir or not?

 2. Is he an enemy or not?

 And more: 3. Was Abu jehl a kaafir or not?

 4. Was he an enemy or not?

 It may solve my problem. But I will try to follow up soon. You please answer the four questions exactly, briefly. Thanks. Will that be alright for you please?

Yes, Satan is a Kafeer! Satan is a rebellious creature against Allah, basking in glory of the matter he was made of and showing arrogance to man, who was made of clay. . Satan�s refusal to prostrate himself to Adam was not induced by monotheism and love for God; rather, it was due to arrogance.

Yes, Satan is an enemy of men ! The mere fact that Satan asked God to grant him immortal status in this life, so that he could concentrate on his vendetta against man. In so doing, he wants to topple man from the lofty station God had put him in and rouse in him the struggle between good and evil. He spares no effort in tempting man to incline towards doing what would in the end spell disaster for his being, by dampening down man�s spirit .

Yes, Abu Jahl is a kafeer. He doest believe in the Oneness of Allah and the Prophethood of Muhammad, he spits on him and the Quran, astahfirullah.. He was mentioned in the Quran:111 as one of those that will enter Jahannam together with he wife.

Yes, he was an enemy of Islam. He was up to his throat disbelieving and not just that, due to his fiery hot tempered nature and ruddy complexion, he curses the Prophet and campaigning against Islam, trying his best to stop him from teaching Islam. His wife shared the same passionate spite and cruelty against the Prophet. She used to tie bundles of thorns with ropes of twisted palm leaf fiber and carry them and strew them about on dark nights in the path in path of the Prophet.

Brother, i intended to let you know that your content shud be supported by Quran and Sunnah, or any scholar's views. Just by our own understandings, its baseless to discuss.

I wished to know, why are you concluding that only those who are enemies of Islam are disbelievers and those who are peaceful are n't. Is this your own thought. It seems to me so.  When Quran and hadith, clearly states us who are disbelievers, then why this confusion ?

 We willl try to solve this riddle too, Insha Allah. Upto now you have admitted that Shaitan is a Kaafir and enemy too. Abu Jehl is a Kaafir and enemy too. Let us leave it at that for a short time and then we should look up some verses in which we are not to use our own senses and we are to follow some one else (some scholar, always). I have understood your question.

I shall try to find a suitable reply. If not found then I will admit that it is my own idea and it is my own mistake. Then I will forego my beleif about the kaafir being an enemy of Islam. Thanks. Give me enough time please.

Jamal Morelli wrote: So - the wrap up... All non-muslims burn in hellfire.

 Ya Jamal, Thanks for everything. I could not understand your exact question. I do not believe that all non-muslims will burn in hellfire. I also do not believe that hell is forever. The word used in Quran about life in hell is Khalideen. That means an extra ordinary long time.

 There are people of other religions. They believe in some  kind of God. They pray to their God. I believe that as long as they are peaceful and do not pick a fight with the Muslims or Islam, there is no fear for them.

 The present day Muslims have a narrow minded idea. That is a great trouble because they are themselves not on  the right lines. The Muslims have misunderstood the Quranic teachings and on top of that they think that only their Islam is the right one. All the rest are doomed. That is not so. In fact the present day Muslims are no different than the jews and the christians of old times. It is a very sad and sorry story.

 I am getting ready to show that every one is not Kafir. Only those who had been given the message of Islam and  they having understood it well then tried to oppose the message and tried to persecute the believers and went  to war against the believers, they are the Kaafirs. Others may be just nonbelievers (ghair Momin).

 A kaafir may be from the Jews or the christians or an atheist or a Hindu  but not all Jews or Hindus or christians are kaafir. A kaafir is at war against Islam.

If we are Muslims as we claimed to be, and we really believe in the Quran, then we will not question as to its veracity. But what we do here is, we base our belief in our opinion and make our own conclusion over a very important matter that has been mentioned in the Quran over and over again�and intend to misled those who have little knowledge as to what Islam and Quran is all about.

Those who worship other than Allah is 100% KUFFAR (infidel) and has committed shirk and shirk was mentioned in the Quran as an act that Allah will not forgive and when they die in that state, Jannah is taboo for them. Islam is the only way to Jannah and no other religion for that matter. Those who do not believe in 6 Articles of Faith and dont practice 5 Pillars of Islam is a KUFFAR!!!!!.and doomed to HELLFIRE...

"Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin" Quran 4:48

�Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "All�h is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship All�h, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with All�h, then All�h has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Z�lim�n (polytheists and wrong�doers) there are no helpers.� Quran 5:72

�This is the Guidance of All�h with which He guides whomsoever He will of His slaves. But if they had joined in worship others with All�h, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them.� Quran 6:88

�And indeed it has been revealed to you (O Muhammad ), as it was to those (All�h's Messengers) before you: "If you join others in worship with All�h, (then) surely (all) your deeds will be in vain, and you will certainly be among the losers." Quran 39:65

�And they (Jews) say, "The Fire (i.e. Hell-fire on the Day of Resurrection) shall not touch us but for a few numbered days." Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Have you taken a covenant from All�h, so that All�h will not break His Covenant? Or is it that you say of All�h what you know not?"  Yes! Whosoever earns evil and his sin has surrounded him, they are dwellers of the Fire (i.e. Hell); they will dwell therein forever. � Quran 2:80-81

�Have you not seen those who have been given a portion of the Scripture? They are being invited to the Book of All�h to settle their dispute, then a party of them turn away, and they are averse. This is because they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a number of days." And that which they used to invent regarding their religion has deceived them. � Quran 3:23-24

�Truly, Hell is a place of ambush, A dwelling place for the T�gh�n (those who transgress the boundry limits set by All�h like polytheists, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h, hyprocrites, sinners, criminals, etc.), They will abide therein for ages, Nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink.  Except boiling water, and dirty wound discharges. An exact recompense (according to their evil crimes). For verily, they used not to look for a reckoning. But they belied Our Ay�t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, and that which Our Prophet (Peace be upon him) brought) completely. And all things We have recorded in a Book. So taste you (the results of your evil actions); no increase shall We give you, except in torment. � Quran 78:21-30

Ameen.

 I don't understand, when it is that clear, still there's argument over this subject. Are all those scholars, interpreters are narrow minded. If so i see only minuteman broadminded in this sense. You never presented a single verse or a hadith that supports your point of view over this subject, but were opposing our points strongly with your words. Try to accept and change your understanding when Quran and sunnah affirms it.

I remember a post of bro.Abu Zaid and an other knowledgable person discussing the term   " Khalideena fiha ". Insha-Allah shall share it here.

This is what the evil death cult of Islam wishes to bring to the whole world. It is already in Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, And the Islamic paradise called, SOMALIA. And Muslims are trying to force this evil law on many more nations. Egypt is one. As it is, the Copts there are treated worse than dirt.

Under Sharia law non-Muslims may be subjected to Sharia Laws however it codifies the treatment of dhimnis in relation to the Muslim state and in cases of over-lapping jurisdiction. Dhimmis are distinctly second-class citizens in that they cannot serve in public office, cannot testify in court and must follow certain rules meant for living on Muslim land and under Muslim protection (such as paying the jizya). The jizya is a tax on non Muslims. The rules include privilege to practice their own religion, except for public demonstration of non-Muslim religious practices and the right to convert Muslims.

The jizya originates in the Qur'an which says �Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of the truth among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Qu'ran 9.29 \

Feel them selves subdued! Otherwise know they are beat. And that they have no hope of ever rising about their horrible conditions, imposed upon them, unless they renounce their religion and become muslims.  This is what Islam wish to impose on many nations, and eventually the whole world.  Pay the jizya.  A tax imposed upon all non muslims.  Yet the rest of the world, must bend over backwards to placate the muslims living among them. Two faced hypocrites. If you think this is wrong leave this vile and evil cult, of us verses them. Mohammed spoke lies. He prayed to the 3 goddesses, till he realized he just might have more trouble forcing jews and christians to convert, so he said he was decieved by satan.  satan was the boss of Mohammed. And still operates freely in the Mosques of Islam.

http://www.faithfreedom.org - www.faithfreedom.org

Jamal Morelli wrote: So - the wrap up... All non-muslims burn in hellfire.

Brother, just to make it clear, that those non-muslims who have n't  heard of Islam earlier - its a different issue - there are different views over it. On the whole we can only say - Wallahu Alam .

In these days, its almost impossible to say that anyone does n't know of Islam. Everyone must have heard of it.  Even after knowing the truth { Islam } when one rejects it then certainly he is abided to the hell-fire eternally. He is a kafir.

Hi Angela,

I can understand your anguish.Before getting into the topic and i forget again to ask ,  you of Sis Herjihad. She is n't seen since many days. I guess she is your friend na. You must be knowing of her. Hope everything is fine with her.

Coming to your post

I can understand your anguish. I agree you post but partially.  Let me remind you that all muslims are n't as you potrayed them. There are black sheeps in every community. I cannot blame christianity for what Hitler did or Bush has done. Like wise there are few muslims in our community too. That does n;t mean all the of them are so. But yes, you have pointed weaknesses of we muslims. I do agree with it. The problem is most of our muslims are n't practicing muslims. We are either very rigid or too flexible that we take religion with ease and practice only when we wish or mould the verses to our own moods.

I feel we are to convert ourselves first. The reason being of the state of muslims today is, we are n't sticking to Quran and Sunnah. We are attracted towards materialism. Most of us have limited Islam only till mosques. Every muslim holds his responsibility of being in the folds of Islam, but he has forgotten it. So do i say, never judge a car by its inexperienced driver. We cannot judge Islam by most of the muslims today as they hold weak faith. We say, if you are to study Islam, go thru the Quran. Lack of proper knowledge, no implementation of the possessed knowledge, no personal conviction towards ISlam, are few reasons for the state of muslims today.

BUTTTTT, we cannot blame only muslims for non-muslims being away from Islam today. NO. There are many whom Islam was intrested thru muslims.Even those who hated Islam and tried to defame Islam, entered into the folds of Islam. Did this 9/11 incident not rise up curiosity about Islam , in the whole world ? Even when they are exposed to wrong Islamic beliefs , but still 1000s entered into Islam. This Issue of cartoon, did it not made them read of Prophet Muhammad ? I don't say that these incidents shud recur . NO. The more Islam was tried to be suppressed the more it spread. I do agree that we are n't into dawah as christian missionaries are. We do not force people to enter in our religion as do these christain missionaries do. We do  not show them monetary beneifts to enter Islam. We don't use other ways like to hypnote them. We did not start up anti sites as other missionaries did ? Yes, we are behind  ANyways

Finally, i would like to say that inspite of our weaknesses , we are n't that bad as been potrayed. Yes, we shall be questioned of being careless in conveying our message, at the same time non-muslims are n't spared for this reason. For Allah swt says, that he had given them the senses of reasoning, gatherring information and get into conclusions.  When they gather this information , then there is conscience within him that shall which does check him and encourages doing good and abstains him from wrong. Anyways, all i can say is, Allah swt knows the best and He deals with Justice to all of us.

Thank you Angela.

May Allah swt, ease her days , bestow patience and courage with peace of mind  to face these tests from Allah .and  convey our greetings to her. Insha-Allah, she shall join us soon. We shall surely pray for her.

 It is for angela, from the Quran. Bible says:

  http://bible.cc/matthew/7-18.htm - 18  A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. http://bible.cc/matthew/7-19.htm - 19  Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. http://bible.cc/matthew/7-20.htm - 20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 And Quran says: 

 Yes, there are muslims who seriously believe in:

1. Jihad, i.e. fight for religion with the sword. Some of them think that the mission of the prophet was political. And some senior muslim leaders agree that Islam was spread by sword.

2, Some believe that some verses of the Quran are abrogated by some other verses of the  Quran.

3. Some Muslims believe that the punishment for adultry is stoning to death. I believe that it was the punishment for adultry in the Jewish book of law and it may be necessary if there is a case of rape or murder. Then stoning is necessary. But those who do that act with mutual consent may be flogged in public.

4. Any one who has not recited the Kalimah is a Kaafir even though he may be quite an ignorant, unaware, peaceful person. This has been discusses here on this forum.

5. Muslims believe that The Jews and  the christians who believe in God and do good deeds (are peaceful persons, nothing against Islam) will not benefit and will not go to heavens unless they become Muslims.

6. There are some Muslims who believe that Hadith is more important than the Quran. And there are some others who say that hadith and Sunnah is not important at all. That Quran only is enough for us. That is quite the opposite of the other party.

7.  There are some muslims  who believe that the dead people do come back to this world i.e. Allah brings them back to this life again. The others believe that dead people never return to this world.

8. It is almost believed that only Muslims will go to jannat (paradise).

 These are small differences in the Ummah. But there are many other greater differences which I do not describe here now.

 The most important of the one I have described are the understanding of Kufar and Islam because that is important from the point of view of relations with  other people. If there is anything basically wrong in that then it affects the Muslims  badly. That may need better understanding. Immediate attention.

The Muslim and the KUFFAR are not equal before Allah, as Allah says: 

�Shall We treat those who believe (in the Oneness of Allaah �� Islamic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds as Mufsidoon (those who associate partners in worship with Allah and commit crimes) on earth? Or shall We treat the Muttaqoon (the pious) as the Fujjaar (criminals, disbelievers, the wicked)?�

[Saad 38:28]

If a sinner does both good and evil, and does both acts of obedience and acts of disobedience  but he believes in Allah � then the justice and mercy of sharee�ah dictates that his good deeds should not ignored or wasted, and he is not to be regarded the same as those who disbelieve in Allah altogether.

All  KUFFAR will abide in HELLFIRE forever, regardless of what they do in this world, for their deeds of disbelief and setting partners unto Allah is the main factor why all their good deeds will be disregarded...The key to Jannah is not our deeds but His Mercy and to gain His mercy is to please Him and adhere to His commands the best that we can.

�But those who reject Our Ay�t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and treat them with arrogance, they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire, they will abide therein forever�(7:36)

�It is not for the Mushrik�n (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h), to maintain the Mosques of All�h (i.e. to pray and worship All�h therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide.� (9:17)

If all the ayah presented from the beginning until now  will not clear the minds of those who are confused, then I guess its Allah's will. None can guide man but Allah.

So your concept of god is one who punishes good people and rewards bad ones, simply on the basis of their allegiance to him?  IMHO such a god would be, by definition, an evil god.  Such a god would be more aptly named "Satan".

By the way, Jamal, can I ask why you have chosen a Buddhist symbol as your avatar?

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers� [Aal- �Imraan 3:81-85]

The hadeeth is: "By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Reported by Muslim, may Allaah have mercy on him, in al-Saheeh, 153

Truth_light24 wrote: And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers� [Aal- �Imraan 3:81-85] The hadeeth is: "By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Reported by Muslim, may Allaah have mercy on him, in al-Saheeh, 153

 Thanks TL, I have been posting that all non believers are not Kaafirs. So, please remain on that subject and prove first from the Quran that all non-believers are Kaafir. If you can find any such verse, it will be useful. This is the problem that most of the muslim leaders do not undertsand Islam at all. It is damaging the cause of Islam.

 I can never say that (easily) because I am not a maulvi or scholar. But what I hear from you is the correct belief of all the muslims today as taught to them nowadays. So, I am the odd man out. But I read the Quran and I see that the Kaafir are only those who after knowing about Islam, they start opposing it with all might. Kaafir has to be an enemy of Islam.

 Those who are disbelievers but peaceful people, they do not fight the Muslims on the mere reason of their beliefs in Allah, and they do not persecute any one, they are not Kaafir. Please tell me, what you will call such people who oppose Islam and truth and go to war against Allah and his message? What you will call them?

 It would be better to spare a few people and let them alone if they let you alone in your beliefs. You also do not abuse them. Kaafir is a very serious word. Now please look for some verse which is calling the peaceful people as kaafir just due to their non belief in Islam. Thanks. Also keep in mind the muslims who migrated to Ethiopia (habshah) during the time of the prophet s.a.w.s. Was that a Kaafir country??

 Also remember that the prophet s.a.w.s. felt happy about being in the time of Nausherwan Aadil of Iran. That king was not a muslim. Please continue....

As'Salamu Alaikum,

Truthlight, let us not answer him any unless he proves from Quran and sunnah that so called peaceful muslims are n't kafirs { disbelievers}. 

Brother Jamaal, You  must be knowing that, those who do good in this world and are disbelievers, they are being rewarded in this world only. They do not have any in the hereafter. Secondly, regarding this sentence of yours

Our Seeks qualified it by saying, you do get a break if you born before the understanding of Islam and even today, if you have never heard of Islam.

If you had read my lines, as far as i remember, i said that scholars vary in this.  One who has n't heard of Islam, will be put to test on the day of judgement which will be equal to the chance a disbeliver gets on earth.. "We will not punish without sending someone to warn you".. Look at this verse. If the warners or the message is n't  reached to them, they are put to test.. And the hell or heaven are final abode.

Every act of ours shud have its intention for the sake of Allahswt. We are rewarded with our intentions. Is n't it ? What do these non-muslims intend. Its not for Allah. But they are been rewarded for there good acts, in this world only. There deeds are n't accepted Hereafter.

Also read this

http://www.islamicity.com/dialogue/Q576.HTM - http://www.islamicity.com/dialogue/Q576.HTM
http://www.islamicity.com/dialogue/Q577.HTM - http://www.islamicity.com/dialogue/Q577.HTM

Seeks, I feel that there is a mistake in your sentence. Please see again and correct it if it has been some mistake. Or write the same again then I will comment. See what you wrote and please tell what you want. I do not consider any Muslim or so called muslim as kafir.

 Truthlight, let us not answer him any unless he proves from Quran and sunnah that so called peaceful muslims are n't kafirs { disbelievers}.

 The so called peaceful Muslms are not kaafirs. I believe that peaceful person of any faith is not Kaafir. So what proof is required from me, if any?

 There are two Hadith about Muslims being led to hell. One is the Hadith about 73 sects in Islam, i.e. same 72 sects in the Jews and the christians. Only one sect will go to Jannah. The other 72 sects ( i.e. the maximum) will go to hell.

 The companions asked who will be sect which will go to Jannah. The holy prophet replied "It will be the one on whom I am and my companions" In Arabic, he said "Maa anaa Alaihe wa as-haabee".

 The other Hadith is about some people being dragged to hell. The prophet will say that they are his people. Allah will say, "You don't know what they did after you passed away".

 I feel that the muslims will get more punishment for their sins than the non-believers. Their responsibility is more than all other non-believers to practice and carry the message of truth. So, the notion that only all the believers (Momins) will go to Jannah does not seem to be true. I believe that any one who will do a little bit of good will see the result of his goodness on the last day. And any one (may he be a momin or not) who did little bit of bad work will see the result of that bad deed. (Last verses of Surat Zilzaal No.99, see below:)

Mr. Minuteman,

The persons that would qualify the verse you mentioned are the Muslims as this ayah were mentioned in the Quran:

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers� [Aal- �Imraan 3:81-85]

Allah will only accept the good deeds of those who has sound belief and will reject the deeds of those who has committed the biggest injustice against Allah. As a proof read the many verses below.

�This is the Guidance of All�h with which He guides whomsoever He will of His slaves. But if they had joined in worship others with All�h, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them.� Quran 6:88

�And indeed it has been revealed to you (O Muhammad ), as it was to those (All�h's Messengers) before you: "If you join others in worship with All�h, (then) surely (all) your deeds will be in vain, and you will certainly be among the losers." Quran 39:65

�But those who reject Our Ay�t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and treat them with arrogance, they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire, they will abide therein forever�(7:36)

�It is not for the Mushrik�n (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h), to maintain the Mosques of All�h (i.e. to pray and worship All�h therein, to look after their cleanliness and their building, etc.), while they witness against their ownselves of disbelief. The works of such are in vain and in Fire shall they abide.� Quran 9:17

�Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "All�h is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship All�h, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with All�h, then All�h has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Z�lim�n (polytheists and wrong�doers) there are no helpers.� Quran 5:72

As'Salamu Alaikum,

Our Mods are active Ron Webb  They shall look over it.

Yes, i shall edit that sentence of mine. Its PEACEFUL NON-MUSLIMS, which you termed in all your post.

Truthlight, let us not answer him any unless he proves from Quran and sunnah that so called  peaceful NON- muslims are n't kafirs { disbelievers}

Yes, muslims also get there punishment . Just by being a muslim we don't escape from it. {Allahumma ajirni minan naar}  May Allah swt save us from hell fire. But the point of discussion is not that. What we say is support your sentence that Peaceful Non-Muslims are n't kafir . And remember kafir is n't a word of abuse, Its a tern used for disbelievers.

 O.K. I have now understood the matter and I would ask you whether it is allowed to make pact with the Kuffar?? Any kind of pact of peace etc.?? Is there any peace for the Kuffar from the Muslim side?? Please reply.

Does "islam" in that verse being used to mean submitting to GOD, or is it a noun?

If it means submitting then the majority of Christians do submit to GOD.  Of course there are "bad" Christians just as there are "bad" Muslims!!

Obviously you have different definition of KUFFUR Mr. Minuteman. Kuffur is an Arabic text linguistically means a covering or concealing. While in the anatomy of eeman, the kuffur means disbelieving in Allah and His Messengers, whether the disbelieve is associated with denial, doubts, suspicion, aversion, jealousy, arrogance or following whims which deters from adhering to the Message.  Those example that you have asked, has been clearly stated in the Quran to where they will belong- KUFFUR.

This is as far as I can go. When the Quran says yes, then yes. Regarding the translation and interpretation of the Arabic Text, which you mentioned in other topic, Mr. Minuteman, I cannot debate you on that. Because you and I have no capability to challenge those scholars who works so hard just to study the Quran.

You want those scholars to change the term from � those who disbelieve� to � those who are enemies of Islam��? You want them to twist what was written in the Quran just to suit someone else?? That is how the Bible were corrupted, the people doing edition, deletion, addition and so and so forth to the Bible until the original message of Allah was lost and the invention of Paul replaced what should be the right Command of Allah.

Do you think that those scholars who have dedicated their entire life just to serve Allah will gamble it just to suit some people�s whims? Many of those scholars were persecuted because of what they firmly believe.Try to read the history behind those ayah you mentioned (Quran 47:4) and know the reason why those ayah were revealed to the Prophet..You are making your own castle in the hellfire if you say a lie about the Prophet how much more twisting the words of Allah? Mr. Minuteman read this verse and try to understand it thoroughly�

�Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers (by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, �We believe in some but reject others,� and wish to adopt a way in between.  They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment� [al-Nisa� 4:150-151]

minuteman wrote:  O.K. I have now understood the matter and I would ask you whether it is allowed to make pact with the Kuffar?? Any kind of pact of peace etc.?? Is there any peace for the Kuffar from the Muslim side?? Please reply.

It took over 7 - 8 pages for you to understand the matter

Yes, we can make peace treaties. Who said no to it ? You kindly brush off these thoughts that we are to hate these kuffars or wage wars against them. It depends of the conditions and situations to deal with them either with peace or war. Right now, we are dealing with the discussion of your point - NON-PEACEFUL ahle kitaab are only kafirs and we say all those who disbelieve in Allah SWT and His Messenger are kafirs. Kafir means rejector of truth. And they do reject it. Is is not simple for you to understand.

believer wrote: Does "islam" in that verse being used to mean submitting to GOD, or is it a noun? If it means submitting then the majority of Christians do submit to GOD.  Of course there are "bad" Christians just as there are "bad" Muslims!!

To make it more simple ,Islam means to submit our will to the commands of Allah swt. And one of the commands of Allah is that a believer in Islam shud believe in Allah, His messengers, His revealed books , Angels --. Here we are n't discussing of bad christians or muslims. The point of discussion is are christians and jews amongst kuffars { disbelievers of islam}. So kindly stick over the subject.

Minuteman you must be reading this chapter many a times. Am speaking of Chapter - Al -Asr.

By Al-`Asr. Verily, man is in loss. Except those

who believe and

do righteous deeds,

and recommend one another to the truth,

and recommend one another to patience"

These four conditions are must for us to qualify in Jannah. You must knowing that the scholars say that if a man ponders atleast over this one single chapter then is enough for him. It is concised but holds lots in it. The very first condition is one who believe. And you know very well what are we to believe in. It is a must for a believer to believe in His messenger too.

 Seeks I had understood your point long ago. What I mentioned now was your edited sentence which I had not understood. Please be sure that I understand what you are saying. You say that even the peaceful Jews and Christians and peaceful people of other faiths are all Kafirs. That is your stand. I hope I had understood the right thing.

 My stand is that any peaceful person who does not oppose or fight Islam is not a kaafir. I will try to present the proof to you when available. Until then you please stick to your belief and I will do to mine. Thanks.

I can't believe a just GOD would punish one that believes in HIM completely but not Mohammad. 

I know Mohammad was an Allah fearing man, but I would never want to follow in his footsteps.

I want to follow in the footsteps of Jesus- mainly because of His compassion, love of fellow man no matter their station in life.  His beautiful sermon:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

 Believer, believe what you like. There is no compulsion. If you will do any good then it will be for you and your children. On the other hand if you are misguided or narrow minded and biased person then that will be bad for you and your children.

 Remember that you should seek and follow guidance properly if you want your future generation to benefit. They are most likely to follow you. So if you are misguided then you will misguide them.

 You have very little or no real knowledge about Muhammad. What you have written above from Jesus is very good. It is alright. We also believe in such things and there are similar good things from Muhammad too. We have Jesus too. We are not without Jesus. But you have nothing except Jesus. So please yourself. There is no harm to us if you teach us something good. Thanks. Welcome.

believer wrote: I can't believe a just GOD would punish one that believes in HIM completely but not Mohammad.

I can't believe a just God would punish someone because they don't believe in Him anyway.  It is our actions, and particularly the way we treat other people, that make us good or bad people, worthy of reward or punishment.  Not our beliefs.  Why should He care one way or another what I think of Him?  Is He that vain?

God doesn't need me to believe in Him, or to worship Him, or to serve Him, or anything else.  God doesn't need me at all.  Other people need me, but not Him.

believer wrote: I have much more then just Jesus, I have the One True GOD.  Or rather I should say He has me.

 Believer, which ever the way you go (you have one True God), please do not under estimate others. They have a God too. And they have the real and true Jesus and Moses and Muhammad. Of course the One True God is also there with the Muslims.

 We are happy that you have much more than Jesus. That is your God. (Does it mean you have the God beside and in addition to Jesus?) Good for you. Be happy with your Jesus and your God. Enjoy.

I agree with Myahya, Allah does not need me.

I think of the profound difference of doing just "good works" for the sake of "doing good"  and doing it for the love of Allah. There is nothing more profound then to love Allah.

Believer: as person raised in the Catholic tradition I cn aunderstand your feeling for Jesus. I have bene reading and learning more about Mohammed. And he was truly a remarkable man. Actually some of the thigns he did were stunning because  that manifested in his love of Allah. A truly beautiful person. Just like Jesus.

Very interesting post Ron.   Do you think GOD wants us to believe in Him? 

I have been told by Muslims that a person has to believe in Allah and Mohammad to be allowed into heaven.

Hafya - are you considering turning to Islam?  I was not raised in the Catholic faith. I would have been a bad Catholic.  I do not believe that the Pope is infalible!! 

We believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as prophet and not as son of god and partner of god. For us, Muhammad is the messenger, a forewarner,  a guide for us to meet and know the commands of Allah. Muslims believe in the ONENESS OF ONE TRUE GOD-->ALLAH, the All-hearing, All-Seeing, All-knowing.. that doesn�t need to die to save His servant from hellfire.

�Say (O Mohammad pbuh):� He is Allah, (the) One. Allah-us-samad (The self-sufficient Master whom all creatures need, He neither eats or drinks). He begets not, nor was He begotten; And ther is none co-equal or comparable unto Him.� Suratol Ikhlas

"He is Allah, the one and only God," means that He is "the Eternal and the Absolute," and that, "He begot none nor was He begotten," and that "there is none comparable to Him." The Arabic term "Ahad" used here to refer to the unity of Allah is much more precise than the much more frequently used term "Wahid" which means "one". "Ahad" has the added connotations of absolute and continuous unity and the absence of equals.

"The Eternal, the Absolute" means the supplicated Lord without whose permission nothing is decided. Allah is the One Lord. He is One in His Divinity and all the other beings are but His servants. To Him and Him alone are addressed all supplications. He and only He decides everything independently. No one decides with Him. And since He is the one and only God this quality is already His.

"He begot none, nor was He begotten," means that the reality of Allah is deep-rooted, permanent and everlasting. No changeable circumstances ever affect it. Its quality is absolute perfection at all times. Birth is descent and multiplication and implies a developed being after incompleteness or nothingness. It requires espousal which is based on similarity of being and structure. All this is utterly impossible in the case of Allah. So the quality of "One" includes the renouncement of a father and a son.

"There is none comparable to Him" means that no one resembles Him in anything or is equivalent to Him in any respect, either in the reality of being, or in the fact that He is the only effective power, or in any of His qualities or attribute. 

Hayfa wrote: I agree with Myahya, Allah does not need me. I think of the profound difference of doing just "good works" for the sake of "doing good"  and doing it for the love of Allah. There is nothing more profound then to love Allah.

Why do you think so?  I'm not sure what you mean by "profound", but in my opinion it is far more important to love mankind than to love God.  As I said, God doesn't need my love (or anything else), but there are lots of people who do.

Do you think that Allah loves Himself more than He loves us?

believer wrote: Very interesting post Ron.   Do you think GOD wants us to believe in Him?

I think that a truly loving God would want us to believe the same things that He believes, and that that would include a profound love of and respect for mankind, His greatest creation.

If God really cared about my belief in Him personally, He could easily convince me.  (He is supposed to be omnipotent, isn't He?)  IMHO the fact that He doesn't is sufficient answer to your question.

I have been told by Muslims that a person has to believe in Allah and Mohammad to be allowed into heaven.

Yes, one thing I have noticed about most of the world's religions is that they start out urging us to love one another, but they always end up trying to coerce us to love God -- or else.  Is that what a loving God would teach?

Actually Muslims do not believe in heaven. And we are supposed to believe in all of God's Prophets, even Jesus. Aren't Christians?

As'Salaamu Alakum

( if anyone decides not to read my whole post, I made it easier by having my questions stated in bold-)

Finally replying to this post makes me feel like a guest to a party that showed up very late. When all the food and cake is gone and everyone is already on their way home....

But in all seriousness their is a understanding I hope to receive that I was not able to achieve even after the 10 pages I read.

Seek and truth-light, the two of you really explained as best what a Kufr is----

to make sure I understand let me sum it up in my own words. If I'm missing or still got it wrong, correct me please....

Layalee's understanding of a kufr- ' A kufr is a individual that rejects due to disbelief the unity of Allah-s.w.t-( Tawheed) AND also rejects  due to disbelief ANY of the messengers/ prophets that Allah (swt) has provided to us. A kufr also does NOT ACCEPT ISLAM.'

If this is the sum of it all- I agree and accept the definition.

In my defintion I wanted to talk about two matters---

1) Rejection 2)Islam

Rejection

1 a: to refuse to accept, consider, submit to, take for some purpose, or use

If a individual decides not to practice or follow something then they are rejecting. But just because someone does not practice or follow a particular way of life, or follow through with a particular matter, doesn't mean it is done out of disbelief.

So, for whatever reason a individual decides to practice a religion that does not include all the prophets doesn't mean they practice in a manner or fashion that causes them to reject a prophet due to disbelief.

If my above statement is wrong, please correct me.

I want to provide a very simple, easy to understand example that I hope to use to support my statement.

Their are many ways a individual can diet. Their is a very popular way known as the Atkins diet, it requires for a individual to eliminate food that has 'carbo' in it. This diet has been known to help many individuals lose weight.

Another diet is the 'weight watchers diet'. It involves this type of point system that deals mainly in counting calories. The diet allows you to eat food that has 'carbs'. It is another diet that has helped individuals lose weight.

After reviewing diets lets say, I go for the weight watchers diet, for what ever the case may be. Lets say I want to do so because all my family does it, and it allows us to develop a really good support team. Mine you though, I have nothing against the Atkins diet, I believe the Atkins diet DO WORK, If I choosed the Atkins diet I believe I will still lose the same amount of weight. I believe the Atkins diet it good, but I just don't want to follow it.

Did I reject the atkins diet. Yes, I did! Did I do it out of disbelief, NO!

Do I believe in the atkins diet. Yes!

Did I lose the weight, yes! Did my way still allow me to reach my goal! Yes!

Back to religion----

So if a individual practices in a way that allows them to understand and adhere to the message of Allah(s.w.t), but it does not include a practice that involves all the Prophets then do they go to hell?

There is a ayat in the Quran I want to bring up....

3:59- O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Rasul, and those in command among you; then if you differ in anything then refer it back to Allah and the Rasul,- if you are believing in Allah and the Future day. This is better and excellent conclusion.

Taking a mini break away from religious talk (but keeping the above mention verse in mind) I want to bring up another simple easy to understand story.

When I was younger, my mother would leave out early in the morning to do errands. She would leave notes on her instructions and rules for me and my siblings to follow while she was gone. Sometimes she would leave them in odd places, and not all of us had to chance to read and follow. Despite this, I could still manage to simply behave and do the 'right thing', do everything that was stated on the note but without the actual knowledge of what is on the note, which in the end still leaves me out of trouble.

Considering my lil story,.....

Can a individaul follow the ONE message that Allah(swt) gave all the prophets, without having the knowledge of the ways of a particular prophet?

Islam

This is a ayat that I seen stated quite often throughout the ten pages. Like all verses in the Quran, it is a very important one.

3:82- And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, then never will it be accepted from him, and he will in the Future be of the losers.

What is Islam?

This is a question that I don't want a webster dictionary or wikepedia 'answer' to. This is a very important question that I think we as muslims and non-muslims have to ask ourselves. I forgot who stated it in the post---ok now I remember, Angela stated it. She made a really good statement..she said 'but what Islam are they exposed to'.(On page 6) 

I am not a 'Quranist'...but I turn to my Quran quite often and feel as if all 'answers' can be found in this Holy book.

So to determine what Islam is can be found in the Quran.

Tonight I'm using the Holy Quran that was translated and provides a commentary by Dr. Zohurul Hoque.

I will like to state another ayat which he provides a commentary for. It provides a good starting to grasping what Islam is.

3:18 ( Whereas there is only one way to Heaven having tributaries more, 71:20) Decidedly the (true) religion with Allah is (only) Islam (i.e. entire submission to His will, 2:112, which is the natural religion of man, 30:30, and of all the nabis including the Patriarch Ibrahim, 2:128,131;3:66,5:44; whereas every child is born as a Muslim, it is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian, Bu.23:79). And those who were given the scripture do not differ ( in it) except after what came to them of the knowledge ( of Allah's unity) out of jealousy among themselves ( for the false concept of favored nations). And whoever disbelieves in the Messages of Allah, then (he will find that) Allah is indeed Quick at reckoning (his account)

In very simple terms Islam is TOTAL SUBMISSION to God.

2:112- No! whoever submits himself entirely to Allah and is a doer of good- for him then is his reward at the presence of his Rabb; and there is no fear on them, now will they grieve.

To sum up what Islam is-

22:78- And do Jihad in Allah the striving that is His due. He has chosen you, and has not put upon you any hardship in the Religion- the faith of your father Ibrahim. He has named you Muslims,- from before and in this, that the Rasul may be a witness over you and that you may be witnesses over mankind. Therefore keep up the Salat, and give the Zakat, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector, so what an excellent Protector and what an excellent Helper!

 What a verse....what a great verse....

If a indvidual follow the description as stated above including total submission to Allah( s.w.t), - but they are for whatever reasons maybe a,  ( taking a statement made by Jamal Morelli on page 7)

'Righteous Jews, Christians, Bahai's, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Animists, Atheists - no matter what they have done to ease another's suffering, no matter how much they have done to increase the flows of connectivity, information and love to reach the troubled corners of the earth, to alleviate disease, heartbreak, hunger, soul crushing poverty ...  all these non-muslims, they all go to eternal hellfire for not accepting Mohammed as the Last Prophet and observing the proscribed practices of Muslims??( my question marks)

I can't for some reason stop my text from being underline after I copy and pasted J.M statement,

So I will stop typing soon 

my personal view is this: Islam and accepting and embracing the Prophet Muhammed (p.b.u.h) and following his sunnah and deciding to follow particular Islamic law is very benefitual for ME, and millions of others. But I am not one that at this moment, unless shown a different light, feels as if we are the only muslims. A person can, from what I believe in my heart, follow and submit to God, without 'being' a muslim. Yet, still have characteristics of what a Muslim is according to the Quran. Such individuals are not 'disbelievers' and can still go to heaven. Insha'Allah.

Am I wrong for feeling this way( as stated above)?

Salaam,

Layalee

Hafya - are you considering turning to Islam? 

Oh, I've been a Muslim for 4 years now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "profound", but in my opinion it is far more important to love mankind than to love God.

Well yes profound is more connected spiritually.. never easy to put into words.  It also comes back to defining "love." Muslims in addition to faith and honoring God must also, always be aware of our actions. And thus are instructed through the model of Mohammed on how to act, behave and think. We must treat people well at all times. We are not only obligated to do acts of charity, but encouraged to do more then the basic obligatory-zakat.

A great book I am reading is called "Purification of the Heart" by Hamza Yusuf. Absolutely incredible, I do recommend it. You can get it on line.  

Becasue I love Allah, my creator, the devinie essence that gave life to all, I will love all that Allah created.

Hayfa, exactly right :-Becasue I love Allah, my creator, the devinie essence that gave life to all, I will love all that Allah created.

To love Allah means we have a greater ability to love others, if we allow it.  This kind of love is not selfish, or envious. It is unconditional, and the greatest love we can have for a fellow human being. Mothers are especially blessed with unconditional love. But let us not make any mistake. Unconditional love does not mean we excuse wrong doings, but instead it helps to teach others their errors, so they can correct their ways. Sometimes some restitution,or just punishment, is required.I am confident that all of us can give ourselves our own punishment as saying sorry often is not enough. We have to correct our mistake, and this is often harder than the mistake we initially made. But any punishment a mother for example gives her child, is still done with love, in a similar way that Allah punishes us. Not always easy for any human to practice. It takes a huge amount of effort. Our perfect example to follow is of course the Prophet Muhammed(pbuH)

AGAPE-  unconditional love, love the sinner but hate the sin.  This does not mean that the sin does not go unpunished.

Ron - I really like this verse- I often worried about those not knowing Jesus and the Comandments.  All of man know right from wrong because it it writen on our hearts. 

Romans 2

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

martha wrote: Hayfa, exactly right :-Becasue I love Allah, my creator, the devinie essence that gave life to all, I will love all that Allah created.

So you love creation because of the Creator; but then why do you love the Creator?

Ron Webb wrote: martha wrote: Hayfa, exactly right :-Becasue I love Allah, my creator, the devinie essence that gave life to all, I will love all that Allah created. So you love creation because of the Creator; but then why do you love the Creator?

Why wouldn't you love the Creator?

He gave us life, and sustenance, and the ability to think and create on our own. He gave us the emotion of love, the ability to feel and pass this feeling along to others.

If it were not for the Creator, you would not exist.

In Islam we believe that everything we have is from Allah. Every breath we take, every bite of food, every drink of water, everything. Everytime I eat ice cream I am grateful to Allah that He gave me life to be able to eat the ice cream, that He gave me taste buds to have the ability to taste the ice cream, that he created cows who give the cream, that He made man intelligent enough to figure out how to freeze the cream and add the ingredients to make it delicious, that He made those ingredients to begin with, etc....  It never ends.

Shasta'sAunt wrote: Ron Webb wrote: martha wrote: Hayfa, exactly right :-Becasue I love Allah, my creator, the devinie essence that gave life to all, I will love all that Allah created. So you love creation because of the Creator; but then why do you love the Creator? Why wouldn't you love the Creator? He gave us life, and sustenance, and the ability to think and create on our own. He gave us the emotion of love, the ability to feel and pass this feeling along to others. If it were not for the Creator, you would not exist.

So you love the Creator because of His creation; and you love His creation because of the Creator.  And the circularity of this doesn't bother you?