So do you think because she does not have great knowledge of scholarship she is not close to AllaH Pak? I think Allah is the only reason she made it as a widow and her closeness to him is what made her survive her grief and raise her children without remarrying. Please don't give me the intelectual argument, is your mother a scholar?

It is reported on the authority of �Umar b. al-Khattab that he said:

�One day, while we were sitting with Rasulallah (s), a man appeared before us.  His garments were sparkling white; his hair the darkest black.  No signs of travel appeared on him.  None of us recognized him.  He went to the Prophet (s) and sat in front of him, placing his knees before [the Prophet�s] knees.  He also placed his hands upon the Prophet�s thighs, saying: �Muhammad, What is Islam?�                  
Rasulallah, (s), replied, saying: �Islam is to testify that there is no deity save Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; to establish regular prayer; to give regular alms; to fast Ramadan; and, to visit Allah�s House as a pilgrim, if you are able.�                  
The stranger said, �You speak the truth.�                  
�Umar said: We were amazed that he would ask him [a question], then tell him he was truthful!                  
The stranger said: �Muhammad, what is faith?�                 
"Rasulallah replied, saying: �Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in [the Divine] Power, its good and its ill.�                  
The stranger said: �You speak the truth.�  Then, he said: �What is Ihsan?�                  
Rasulallah replied, saying: �Ihsan is to serve Allah as though you see Him, but if you see Him not, then [to serve Him knowing] He sees you.'
The stranger said: �You speak the truth.�  Then, he said: �Can you inform me about the Hour?�
Rasulallah replied, saying: �The questioned knows no more about it then the questioner.�
The stranger said: �Then tell me of its signs.�
Rasulallah said: �[Among] its signs are that the slave woman shall give birth to her mistress, and that the poor, naked and barefoot, the herders of sheep, shall compete in raising tall buildings.�
The stranger tarried but a moment before departing.  The Prophet (s) said to me: � �Umar, do you know who was the questioner?�  I replied that Allah and His Messenger knew better. 
Rasulallah (s) said: �This is Jibril.  He came to teach you your religion.��

Salams to All

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim

Noone has the right to say who is closer to Allah(s.w.a) and who is further away because noone knows this except Allah(s.w.a). I am by no means a scholar, I never claimed to be one, nor do I do this full time. I have a full time job and I do this when I have a few minutes. I think like most of us, we belive that we are doing our Islamic duty to increase our own knowledge and Enjoin Good and Forbid evil. Both of these are things that we were commanded to do by our Holy Prophet(a.s.).

Personally, I have received some private emails (and I'm sure others on this forum have also received these) saying that this person benefitted from something I posted and to continue posting. That is why I continue. I also have a family, car payments, a mortgage. I don't receive any money for this. I think we all need to set aside something for the next life by way of good deeds, because our paychecks (however large or small) will not help us then. There are certainly other ways of doing good deeds.

Salam to Jenni, Rami and Abu Hadi,

Jenny wrote

" As I read all of the posts I wonder how much time all of you have for studying every intricate detail of Islam. "

Well Jenny, since you're in the U.S., you know that the average American adult spends 15-20 hours per week watching television, 5 hrs. per weeks playing video games, etc. In my economics class in college, I learned about something called " Opportunity Cost", which means, every hour of your life has a cost associated with it. I choose to spend some of my "free time" in learning about Islam (from books and others), and sharing my knowledge. And, in case you're wondering, I have alot of other things going on in my life besides this forum (I guess you'll just have to take my word for that).

Jenny wrote

" They did not know the hundreds of duas and all of the rules that four schools of thought disagree on. "

From the Holy Quran, we know that Allah (s.w.a.) does not place on us a burden greater than we can bear, and does not judge us by any standard other than our knowledge and capacities (which he knows well, being our creator.) By your action of "freely choosing" to read these post means that you may have a greater-than-average capacity to understand the issues discussed. If so, then maybe you should continue to read and participate in this forum (as you find the time and energy to do so.)

Jenny wrote

I am frankly tired of it all, and like many many Muslims want to be as good as I can without everyone with a computer a few books and the internet thinking they are an expert.

Being as good as you can, as knowledgable as you can, etc. is all Allah (s.w.a) expects from you (but don't underestimate yourself). I have said many times in my posts (maybe I should add it do my signiature) that I AM NOT A SCHOLAR. I do not even speak or write Arabic fluently, so I cannot be a scholar by definition. This is why I try to always cite my sources, and rely on scholarly references for my statements. I am a student, and I am just trying to learn more about Islam and share my knowledge with others.

I know that the majority of Muslims are not interested in these subjects. If you want to just "do the basics", noone is here to judge you or tell you what you should do. This is why we are Muslims, i.e., we do not depend on the opinions of others, but on the Quran, The prophets (a.s.) and his purified progeny for guidance.

Verily, Verily, deeds are more important than words or argument!

Salam

Salam to Jenni,

" So If I have 20 hours a week to spare between my Husband,and children and caring for myself and I spend all of it on scholarly reading or I spend 3 hours reading and 17 voluntering my time and helping the elderly or working with children, which in your intelectual eyes is more important??? "

Allah hu Alim (God (alone) is the judge!) As I said before, I am not here to judge you or tell you what to do. You know yourself, your life situation, etc. better than anyone except Allah (s.w.a.), and you are the best person to make that judgement. As for me, I am seeking knowledge because it is highly encouraged in Islam (as is voluntering time and helping the elderly or working with children). Allah (s.w.a) created us as individuals, and given us many ways to "move towards" him.

Noone knows the true value of an individual except Allah (s.w.a.) Anyone who says, "I am better than him/her" is only imitating the Shaytan (Satan) when he refused to obey the command of Allah (s.w.a.) and bow down to Adam. Arrogance is the root of disobedience to Allah (s.w.a.)

Salam.

So Rami you can say she is not destined for the Highest level of paradise, Why????

They are the fewest in number, but the greatest in rank before Allah. Through them Allah preserves His proofs until they bequeath it to those like them (before passing on) and plant it firmly in their hearts. By them knowledge has taken by assault the reality of things, so that they found easy what those given to comfort found hard, and found intimacy in what the ignorant found desolate. They accompanied the world with bodies whose spirits were attached to the highest regard (al-mahall al-a`la). Ah, ah! how one yearns to see them!

in Surah Waaqiah Allah classifies people into three categories:

The people of the left-hand (Ashaab al-Mash-amah).

the people of the right-hand (Ashaab al-Maymanah).

Those who are near to Allah (Muqarraboon); alternatively referred to as the "Foremost".

The first group are those who have rejected faith. The second group are the righteous ones who are consistent in the fulfilment of their duties towards Allah. They are described as "a multitude of those of old and a multitude of those of later times (Waaqiah :39-40). And finally their are the Muqarraboon. They are a special group of believers who have attained the highest rank in spiritual development. They are often described as the elect of the elect (Khawaas ul-Khaswaas) whose intensity of faith (iman) has bestowed upon them the special privilege of enjoying nearness to Allah.

They are described in this Surah as being "a multitude of those of old and a few of later times" (Waaqiah : 13-14).

This idea of nearness to Allah is similarly expressed in a Sacred Tradition;

"My servant continually seeks to draw near to Me through supererogatory acts until I love him. And when I love him I become the ears with which he hears, the eyes with which he sees, the hand with which he grasps, and the feet with which he walks" (Bukhari).

1. A Wali is a pious Muslim, who due to his knowledge and closeness to Allah Ta'ala, has been given a specific position.

2. Usually this grade is given to a Wali due to his strict followance the Shari'ah and also his devotion and his worship.

3. Wilaayat is, however, sometimes given to a person from birth and, therefore, without devotion and effort.

4. From the Awliyah-e-Ummat-e-Muhammadi, the most superior Awliyah are the four Khulafa, namely Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, Hazrat Uthman and Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhum) and then all the Sahaba-e-Kiraam. All the Sahaba are also Awliyah. The source of the blessing for the Awliyah after these is Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhu). In other words, they are all blessed with Wilayah through the blessing of Hazrat Ali (radi Allahu anhu).

5. From the Awliyah of all the Ummah(creation), the greatest Awliyah are from the Ummah of Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam).

6. There have been Awliya in every era and there will always be Awliya in every era, however, their recognition may be difficult.

By the way since I dont claim to be knowledgable isn't there a verse in the Quran or a Hadith I'm not sure that says most people in heaven will have been poor

So you think that if you have more knowledge you are better than them and destined to a higher level in paradise than they are? Doesn't it say in the Quran you are judged by your good and bad deeds?

So If I have 20 hours a week to spare between my Husband,and children and caring for myself and I spend all of it on scholarly reading or I spend 3 hours reading and 17 voluntering my time and helping the elderly or working with children, which in your intelectual eyes is more important???

Salam to sister Jenni,

I apologize for my short reply, however, I am also a little short on time (at the moment).

I like many of your points, and agree with most of what you say. I am also a revert to Islam (former Christian (Lutheren)). I'm sorry I don't have time to look up the verse (to give the exact reference), however, the Quran tells us that (paraphrasing) " To Allah ascends the good words, and the good deeds raise them up." In other words, faith, prayer, contemplation, learning, good deeds are ALL neccesary to progress spiritually. If you leave any of them, you will find that you will either stagnate (spritually), or fall backward.

Those who discuss Islam do so to their level of understanding. If you find the issues discussed here confusing, my advice is to ignore them for now. The basics (foundation) of Islam (i.e., the pillars), The Holy Quran and MOST of the Sunnah of the prophet is clear and agreed upon by all Muslims. The issues we are discussing here relate primarily to examination of (especially early) Islamic History, Leadership of the Muslims, Tafsir of Quran, etc. These subjects may not interest you at your present stage, or you may not have time for them. Either way, it's O.K. , Allah (s.w.a) alone is your guide. Depend on his guidance (not the guidance of the fallible individuals in this forum, myself included).

Salam

Assalamu alaikum,

I have been reading this thread.  Here are my thoughts, take them or leave them.

(Jenni: I am not against what you have said, I feel the same way, which is why I started reading this thread in the first place!  It got me thinking...and these are my thoughts about it.)

I believe that men and women are different and absolutely think differently.  Men like to do things "the hard way", women seem to see the quickest, effecient way to solve things.  This probably has a lot to do with the fact that women are the caregivers and due to the enormous workload they carry each day, they don't have time to spend looking at everything from every angle, they just get it done!

Men seem to enjoy taking things apart and looking at each little bit, how it works, how it fits in with everything else, other possibilities for it and so on.  It has been my experience that men actually have a bit of trouble finding the quick and easy way to solve things, they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills".

Women are much more practical.  I am not saying that either is somehow deficient or that one is more intelligent than the other.  There are many different kinds of intelligence.  I am just saying that if you read around this forum you will find it is mostly the men who are into the long, drawn out examinations of issues from so many different angles and theories and justifications and ,,, (yawn).

I am not trying to start a male/female war here, far from that.  I have stated on other threads that we are different but this is Allah's plan - men and women complement one another - they complete each other.  Now, some men are more inclined to female thinking and some women are more inclined to male thinking - there are exceptions to any rule. 

The point is, if some wish to "study" Islam a little or study it to the hilt so be it.  If some wish to "live" Islam a little or live it to the hilt, so be it.  We need to support one another and try, each in our own way, to be good Muslims.

Let's stop being so picky about how others follow Islam, as long as they are not deviating from the path. 

We need to stick together Muslims!

Peace, ummziba.

Salam to Aisha, Ummziba and Jenni,

Aisha, I respect and admire the fact that you are learning Arabic (which I am also attempting) and other activities. However, I think that it is inappropriate to " maybe if you spent a little less time on the internet and picked up a book about islam you would have more knowledge." The Prophet (a.s.) has taught us to avoid criticizing a fellow Muslim unless they are doing something which is haram. I'm sure that your intention in doing this was good, however, it came across a little harsh (from where I sit!).

Ummziba, I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your "fresh" perspective on the discussion. I know you did not mean to be critical when you said that "they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills", however, I want to say that this is not my intention. My main interest in this particular series of discussion threads is to point out to my fellow brothers and sisters the importance of following those whom our Holy Messenger (a.s.) intented us to follow, the identity of these individuals and their merits (as stated by the Quran and the Holy Prophet (a.s.) and his trustworthy companions.

I believe that the best knowedge is practical knowledge, and gaining knowledge is a pointless exercise unless it either changes the individual or helps him/her to change his family/community, etc. The issue of who should lead the Muslim (who is Adila, or, a just leader)  Umma ( there is only one) is particulary critical in our time. This also relates to many other subjects, which I can expand on if requested.

Salam

Salam to Jenni and others,

Sister, May Allah reward you for your efforts. I am sorry that you had this experience at a Mosque, as this should be the most friendly and welcoming place for a Muslim. I have visited many mosques in many part of the U.S. If you would like to inform the group (or PM me) as to what city, state you live in, I will try (inshahAllah) to recommend a mosque to your that will be more friendly.

Those people that want to "teach you about Islam" (i.e., give unsolicited and unwelcomed advice about religion) could probably learn more from you than you can from them! Being a revert, I can relate to your experience. I can also tell you that certain schools of thought within Islam (i.e., Salafi/Wahabbi) tend to breed intolerance and harsh behavior. I would recommend avoiding those types of enviroments.

P.S. RE: Carrying the Quran on your knees. I've never heard of this before, however, I'm sure that physical therapist and chiropractors across the world are grateful for all the new business this will create for them !!

Salam

Assalamu alaikum,

Ali Zaki wrote: Ummziba, I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your "fresh" perspective on the discussion. I know you did not mean to be critical when you said that "they seem to make "mountains out of mole hills", however, I want to say that this is not my intention.

No, I most certainly was not being critical, I was pointing out the perceived way in which men seem to take all things on as a big task.  As I pointed out in my post, I celebrate this difference between men and women.  We can't be the same, indeed, we must not be the same.  We complete each other, like two different parts that fit together very well, just as Allah intended.

Please feel free to pursue your intention for this thread (or any other).  My point is, that as long as we are not going against Islam, we should all be more supportive of each other rather than critical. 

I do understand Jenni's view point very well.  Far too many Muslims think "their" Islam is the only one and the true one.  Far too many Muslims "make up their own rules" about Islam and try to convince others it is the right path.

Yes, we must stop being critical, but, we must also "enjoin good and forbid evil" which entails stopping "local rules" and "personal interpretations of Islam" in their tracks.  The only way to do this, is through knowledge...

And now we are back to how much must we study Islam?  It seems being a good Muslim is a careful balance of study and deeds, each of us as we are capable of doing.

Aisha, I support and applaud your efforts to learn Arabic.  Ali Zaki, I support and applaud your efforts to use knowledge to get across your points.  Jenni, I support and applaud you in your efforts to be the best mother and wife you can be.  I should be supported and applauded for trying to bring a little harmony among a few Muslims (not being "full of myself" here - just making a point).

You see, we are four good Muslims who do not necessarily see eye to eye, but can be united as Muslims for the good of the ummah without having to be critical of one another.  Gentle reminding and good knowledge are the ways brothers and sisters should help one another stay on the right path.

What was in my milk this morning?  I sound like a crazed preacher!!!  Sorry!  I hope my point is not lost in all my rambling......

Peace, ummziba.

Salam to Ummziba,

As for me, I will say Thank You for contributing to our discussion and adding to my understanding. I certainly know that you're intentions are good and sincere in what you say. I was pointing this out primarily because I know that there are others who think that I am unneccisarily complicating things. I just wanted to attempt to clarify my intentions. Thank you (again) for giving me the opportunity!

May Allah shower his blessings on you (and your family).

salaam jenni.i think you have just summed it up

Assalaamu alaikum

Dear Jenni,

I feel the same way about �keeping fit�, in the past all a person had to do was eat healthily & exercise�.. Now people are cheeking how many calories are in their food, how much fat saturates, how quick their heart is beating when they exercise, what exercises tone here, what exercises tone there!!! 

It seems this is just a product of modern society (science)!

Tut-tut, & cheeky-cheeky�.. Ummziba

�Men like to do things the hard way�

If I may politely remind you, that all the Prophets have been men, and why? Because they have been able to penetrate the very essence of existence, this requires the very deepest level of perception. Hence this is not about finding a quick short-term solution.

If you tell a child not to go near the fire, they may well heed the warning, but without understanding why! Hence at some point in the future they may (be tempted to) go into the fire, only then to find that it burns (& hurts) them.

Assalamu alaikum Midway,

midway wrote: Tut-tut, & cheeky-cheeky�.. Ummziba �Men like to do things the hard way� If I may politely remind you, that all the Prophets have been men, and why? Because they have been able to penetrate the very essence of existence, this requires the very deepest level of perception. Hence this is not about finding a quick short-term solution. If you tell a child not to go near the fire, they may well heed the warning, but without understanding why! Hence at some point in the future they may (be tempted to) go into the fire, only then to find that it burns (& hurts) them.

Well, tut, tut, Midway.  May I politely ask you to go back and read all my posts in this thread, you will realize that I agree with you completely.  It was not a put down about men at all, just a way to point out the inherent differences between men and women.  Ooooppps, someone was being hasty!

I would also argue about why all the prophets were men (their knack for in-depth analysis had nothing to do with it), but that is a whole other topic!

Peace, ummziba.

Tut-tut�..

I have read all your posts in this thread, & would say exactly the same thing if I was able to go back in time�..

�I would also argue about why all the prophets were men (their knack for in-depth analysis had nothing to do with it), but that is a whole other topic!�

And you know that for a fact?

Sorry, it was wrong of me to say the word I have edited out.

midway wrote:   Tut-tut�.. I have read all your posts in this thread, & would say exactly the same thing if I was able to go back in time�.. �I would also argue about why all the prophets were men (their knack for in-depth analysis had nothing to do with it), but that is a whole other topic!� And you know that for a fact? Women!!!!!!!

What a pity - yet another misogynist.  And one of such little understanding.  Save your breath.  I won't be bothered replying to you anymore.  I'll leave you to the men you love so much better.

Peace, ummziba.

Yes�.. I�m far from perfect, and I don�t mind admitting so

I have never been into hiding my imperfections, for I see that as real hypocrisy

If you see me as weak because I am honest, then so be it!

Gay! Yes I�ll be very gay to see all my brothers & sisters succeed!  

If I may please add�..

I was wrong in the way I approached (& hence the things I said to) Ummziba in this conversation, so here�s an official - I am sorry Ummziba. Words can be a bit shallow so, I�ll just get on with improving. Insha Allah

Bismillah,

Jenni, with the signature that you have, and the original post that you made here, I see that you are saying men should spend more time caring for their families because Allah, SWT, will give the most blessings for that.  (What does Pak mean, please?)

Maybe you have friends in situations where the husband ignores his familial duties for the luxury of spending countless hours with the brothers learning so many details that will get them into heaven while casually discarding the most obvious duties Allah, SWT, has assigned to him.  This issue slams me like a bad car accident, right to my heart.  Pray for us all to have kindness towards each other, ISA.

As Salam Alukum

Its funny how some people feel this way by hadiths, you must realise that the hadiths came down the same medium, that is oral tradition backed by a chain of narrators, so if you are rejecting hadith why not reject the Qur`an?

Secondly hadiths were recorded Manuscripts of Abu Hurairaih's collection of ahadith exist in Samarkand, as do the earliest copies of the Quran. A lot of other Sahaba's hadith works are available in manuscripts. One only has to have the will to seek them out. If you reject hadith because you think they might have been invented, think the same for the Quran. How would you know that the Quran we have today is the same as the Quran of 1400 years ago?

One of the main problems is ordinarly layman like you and I open by Sahih Bukhari or other books of hadith and read it and formulate an opinion on it without understanding why this hadith was uttered, what were the circumstances? one has to remember these hadiths are orginally in Arabic you would get a better understanding if you read the Sharh (commentary on Bukhari's hadiths) from Ibn Hajar Asqalani's Fath Al-Bari.

but then how can you guarantee that the Qur`an is protected since the Holy Qur`an is tawatur and so are some hadiths, if you reject hadiths then you must also reject the Qur`an secondly it is the IJMA (Concious of the Ulema (Scholars) that those who are hadith rejecters are automatically declared kafir, I would sincerely advise you to study the Sciences of Ilm Al-Rijal and Ilm Al-Hadith before you formulate your own opinions withour doing your research correctly.

but the Quraan orders us to follow the prophet, for example:
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 32
soorah Aal Imraan ayah 132
soorat un nisaa ayah 59
soorat ul maaidah ayah 92
soorat ul anfaal ayah 1
soorat ul anfaal ayah 20
soorat ul anfaal ayah 46
soorat un Noor ayah 54

Allah Ta'alaa tells the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to "warn those who appose your order" that they will fall into tribulation or great punishment {soorat un noor ayah 63}

Allah Ta'alaa orders the Rasool Sallallaahu `alyhi wa sallam to tell people "If you love Allah follow me Allah will love you" {soorah Aal `Imraan ayah 31}

Allah Ta'ala says in the Quraan that you will be guided with the guidance of the Sahaabah { Soorat ul Baqarah ayah 137}
and that those who follow the Muhajireen and Ansaar with Ihsaan will be in heaven { Soorat ut Tawbah ayah 100}

Allah Ta'ala says ask the people of Knowledge if you don't know {soorat un nahl ayah 43, soorat ul Anbiyaa ayah 7}

Allah Ta'ala says that those who follow other than the way of the believers will go to hell {soorat un nisaa ayah 115}

The meaning of the words hadith and sunnah


Hadith (pl. Ahadith) = tiding, talk, discourse, tale, story (the word comes from haddatha = to tell)
Sunnah (pl. Sunan) = institution, customary action, wont

The above explanation should be enough, but i dont think that'll be enough for you guys.

The word hadith in the quran:
4:42
4:78
4:140
6:68
7:185
12:6
12:21
12:101
12:11
18:6
20:9
23:44
31:6
33:53
34:19
39:23
45:6
51:24
52:34
53:69
56:81
66:3
68:44
77:50
79:15
85:17
88:1


To show that there is nothing wrong with this word. I'll take some verses from the quran wich contains the word "hadith":

85:17.. Hal ataka hadeethu aljunoodi

88:1. Hal ataka hadeethu alghashiyati

Bismillah,

I agree with Noah and Jenni that the Qur'an is promised to be protected, and the hadeeth are not.  The Qur'an was memorized by a thousand people and recorded by mutual consensus in Othmaan's time because of a major battle in which many people who had memorized the Holy Qur'an were killed.  It was seen as expedient to have a consensual compilation among those who had it memorized.  This did not happen with hadith. 

My I chip in a little bit on this "off topic" gossip!

For Quran, no one needs to go any where for its authenticity. however, this is not true for Ahadith. Isn't it?

In the same token, if Quran is law, then authentic sunnah are the explanation of the law but not the vice versa. However, then sunnah play another vital role and that is the history associated with it. Usually people of other faith play down Quran as a book of faith, it is the well documented ahadith with their complete chain of narration, that provides un-deniable authenticity to the Quran and hence its preservation. Think a little bit more on this when you read about the process of preservation of Quran through the link provided below.

It is therefore imperative for all of us to recognise the importance of both of them at their own level.

One more thing that I may like to correct to someone who mentioned about writing down of Quran in the time of Hazrat Usman from oral traditon. This is not  true. The fact is that whole of the Quran, as it used to be revealed, was aptly written down by the specially appointed scribes of our beloved Prophet. At the same time, given the importance of sunnah, some people also started writting down the Ahadith along with the Quran, to which our Prohet strictly forbidden this practice for not confusing the two sources togather. Hence, kept a special care of writting down of the Quran. When the Quran was completely revealed, its proper order of sequence of verses relative to each other for compilation was also duly dictated by the Prophet. For complete and detailed information, kindly see

http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/index.htm - http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_qura n/index.htm

Indeed Allah knows the best.

For Quran, no one needs to go any where for its authenticity.

however, this is not true for Ahadith. Isn't it?

In the same token, if Quran is law, then authentic sunnah are the explanation of the law but not the vice versa.

However, then sunnah play another vital role and that is the history associated with it.

Usually people of other faith play down Quran as a book of faith, it is the well documented ahadith with their complete chain of narration, that provides un-deniable authenticity to the Quran and hence its preservation.

Think a little bit more on this when you read about the process of preservation of Quran through the link provided below.

It is therefore imperative for all of us to recognise the importance of both of them at their own level.

I completely agree
Quran = Gods word, Law, the critrion, the beacon of light, the sorter of historical and previous relegious errors, the mercy, the way etc.
Hadith = loosely collected telltales with some authentic historical value at places, perhaps narrated by the people who are claimed to have narrated them, who knows, really?.

One more thing that I may like to correct to someone who mentioned about writing down of Quran in the time of Hazrat Usman from oral traditon. This is not  true. The fact is that whole of the Quran, as it used to be revealed, was aptly written down by the specially appointed scribes of our beloved Prophet. At the same time, given the importance of sunnah, some people also started writting down the Ahadith along with the Quran, to which our Prohet strictly forbidden this practice for not confusing the two sources togather. Hence, kept a special care of writting down of the Quran. When the Quran was completely revealed, its proper order of sequence of verses relative to each other for compilation was also duly dictated by the Prophet. For complete and detailed information, kindly see http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/index.htm - http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_qura n/index.htm Indeed Allah knows the best.

I have seen 4 and half billion different takes on how the Quran was assembled, written by scribes, written by mohammad (pbuh). To be perfectly  honest. i do not care a single bit if it fell of the moon and hit mohammad on the head. I have read it, i understand what it wants me to do, and i obey, no questions asked. Im not going to argue with God. (but i will take on the scholars, no prob, they arent infallible or God send. they are humans with the same capacity and senses as me)

May Allah show us all the way to truth, where ever or what ever it may be.

Peace
Noah

O my dear brother Noah, great respect for your ideas and comments about Quran, but one can't ignore the history of Islam, good or bad, both. This doesn't mean that you have to wear the monocle of hadith to read Quran or to understand its general meaning. However, there are still numerous topics that have been alluded in Quran and their full understanding (or you can say as how to implement) comes from authentic ahadith. Islam deals with complete system of human life, from its fromation of a society to its individual members. Hence, if Quran provides constitution for a society, then sunnah forms the guidelines to implement this constitution in the form of a law. And if Quran provides a law, then sunnah provides the guidelines as how to implement the law (I am using "if" as an anology for presenting the examples). In any case, its not the vice versa. Your respect for Quran is true at its own merit, however, authentic (I repeat authentic) sunnah must not be down graded as well from their own stature.

Now coming to historic value of Islamic manuscripts, have you ever realised how important these are? The website that I referred you, provides evidence of assurance (through human intellect) that the copy of Quran that we are holding now in our hands, is same ditto as was revealed on Prophet Mohammad. In the absence of which, how do you claim its preservation other than from Quran itself? Think for a while, hopefully, you will get the answer yourself. It is this promise of Allah, through which Quran has survived the tides of history, otherwise, for history there is no exception. 

May Allah give all of wisdom to use logic for all our matters. Amin.

Assalamu alaikum,

Just an interesting, though possibly relevent aside:

It is scientific fact that all human fetus' are female.  The mutant Y chromosome later starts a reaction that turns just under half of these into males.

It is females who grow and give birth to our young.

Why then would Allah make Eve from Adam, would this not be backwards?

Does the Qur'an not say that Allah made a female soul and it's mate from it?

Peace, ummziba.

Noah wrote: jenni try and read http://www.free-minds.org/books/journey.htm - this book online Im sure it will answer you quetion Peace Noah

Bro Noah, this book is lacking authenticity and doesn't represent a scholarly researched writting. Picking up Quranic verses from here and there to negate sunnah is not at all a wise approach. We all know it took Quran almost 23 years to reveal, without reading it in its proper historical context to falsify ahadith, is thus, a big falacy. Hence, it is the work of none other than people like Saint Apple Pie and company.

May Allah provide us true guidance in our endeavor for the right direction. Amin.