Muslims definition of
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Topic: Muslims definition of
Posted By: believer
Subject: Muslims definition of
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 5:37pm
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Messiah?WHy do Muslims give Jesus this special title? What does "a word from" Allah mean, in regards to your belief that Jesus is mere man? http://www.altafsir.com/Quran.asp?SoraNo=3&Ayah=45&NewPage=0&img=D - [3:45] Can any one explain how Isa is Jesus' [Greek] name which in reality is really Yeshua [Hebrew]? http://www.altafsir.com/Quran.asp?SoraNo=4&Ayah=171&NewPage=0&img=D - [4:171]
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Replies:
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 3:29pm
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Believer: Here are the correct translation of these verses. The Word was Be, and Jesus was. This is explaining how Mary, a virgin, could be with child. Allah(SWT) said Be, and Jesus was. Messiah can be a deliverer, such as the Jews were awaiting, or a leader and teacher, but Muslims do not call Jesus a messiah. He is a Prophet and an Apostle of God. 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. 4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 7:56pm
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What translation do you use? The first one? 004.171 a spirit proceeding from Him- Yes Christians say The Son proceedth from the Father. What is meant by the- a spirit ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 9:44pm
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In Islam we do not believe that the Holy Ghost went into Mary and created Jesus. We believe that Allah said "Be" and Jesus was. A spirit coming from Allah, in Allah's Word: BE. The birth of Jesus is miraculous because he has no father, but no more so than Adam, who was created directly by Allah and has neither father or mother, or Eve, who was created from Adam's rib. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 1:56am
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Just wondering really, as Adam and Eve were directly created by Allah, would they have had a belly button(umbilicus)? Like I say...just wondering ------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:44am
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In Islam we do not believe that the Holy Ghost went into Mary and created Jesus. It is true. In Islam we do not believe such bad things. But I read it somewhere in the bible that angel went into Mary so or something close to those words. The meaning of the words " to go into" or "to come into" are explained by the story of the two daughters of Lot who were worried that there was not a man in the land who could go into them.... So do not trust the words of bible please. There is a lot of confusion. There is already the word "begat" in Mathew 1 where Abraham begat Issac. (they forget Ishmael altogether). Please understand the word begat. How did Abraham beget Issac. Then try to understand the church belief that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:51pm
LOL! minuteman - here is the story. Absolutely no confusion.Luke 1The Birth of Jesus Foretold26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." 34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God." 38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. Matthew 1 18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Muslims believe that GOD can only impregnate a women through sex? OK back to the topic. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:20pm
Allahu Alim ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
martha wrote:Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:33pm
My old King James Version Bible that I had since I was a child says: "the Holy Spirit will come into you". I know that the different versions of the Bible are constantly being updated, revised, and wording changed to make it more modern or acceptable. Find an old Bible and look it up.... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:35pm
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Back to the subject, the Quran makes it very clear that Jesus is no more than a Prophet of God: "Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah," end of story... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:57pm
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Shasta'sAunt - Which Quran translation do you use? I looked at the King James- maybe you should recheck that, but still-Have you never heard of being filled with the Holy Spirit? LOL!! You also believe there was sex involved? Luke 1 28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 April 2008 at 6:43pm
I do not believe there was sex involved, but then The Quran has never inferred that there was. My old Bible and Concordance is from the 1960's. Do you deny the wording has been changed? Interesting that it would be so.... I personally prefer the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran as I believe the language is closer to the poetic Arabic. Which version of the Bible do you use? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 6:56am
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LOL!! Good! I have had Muslims accussing the Holy Bible of saying GOD had sex with Mary!! LOL!! Translations change but the originals stay the same. Sound familiar? LOL!! That is the first translation listed on the USC site? I use all translations, in fact many Bible classes ask you to bring many different translations. The different translations don't change the full message of the Holy Bible. However you look at it Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit. A spirit that does not as far as I know have a physical body like a human. Jesus was the manifestation of GOD in human form. Amazing things happen when filled with the Holy Spirit- the Bible story of the speaking in tongues, etc. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 3:19pm
LOL I have Christians saying that I accused God of having sex with Mary.... I never said any such thing. I said that my 1960's King James Version of the Holy Bible, white leather with gold trim and lettering, reads: "the Holy Spirit came into Mary" You can say what you will, but as the Bible is revised and updated, the words and meanings change. I have two Bibles, my old one and The New International 1984. Just out of curiosity I looked up one of the most well known verses... John 3:16 old Bible: "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." new Bible: For God so loved the world He gave His only son" I am wondering why the "begotten" has changed? begotten< name=entry =/dictionary method=post> One entry found. Main Entry:
1 : to procreate as the father : sire 2 : to produce especially as an effect or outgrowth (Mirriem-Webster)
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 6:36pm
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LOL!! OK! Probably because we no longer use that term. The translator wanted to make the language up to date. In this day of age only son implies that the son was begotten son. The bottom line- the message stays the same. The same thing happens with the Quran! The translation regarding the verses I mentioned at the first of this thread for instance. I think the message really changes with the Quran depending on which translator you use. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 9:46pm
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Actually, once begotten is taken out it sort of changes the message, much like the Holy Spirit went INTO Mary or the Holy Spirit was UPON Mary. There is a big difference.... The translations of the Quran are merely translations, the original script is unchanged. It's not revised every couple of years to make the message easier for people to accept. And besides, how could God give His only son if Jesus and God are the same? Wouldn't God be giving himself?
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 9:23am
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I found another that says "one and only son". That clarifies it even further. Check yours again. Actually with sex taken out of the picture there is no difference it is still an infillinlling of the Holy Spirit. up�on �preposition
Should we start another thread on that? I have another question along the definition line. What is meant by Holy Spirit in these verses. Is it the angel Gabriel, or GOD breathed Spirit? I have heard some Muslims say that the Holy Spirit with Gabriel. Also do Muslims believe that GOD is a Spirit? 002.087 002.253 ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:14pm
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The notion of being related to God is an old psychological disease of polytheism and redemption with a board game mentality like get out of jail pass written all over. The old Trinitarianism that had been part of European psuedo religions of the old got co opted with Paul's new sale of the new son of god pitch . This son of God is nothing new to Jesus you can see the Bible writers have played quite fast and loose with thsi without anybody telling the readers that these statement are Satanic and rejected by Allah outright. SONS OF GOD: The Bible ascribes sons by the tons to God. (a)
'Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of
Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE (b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were
fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . when the SONS OF
GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same
became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4 (c)
" . . Thus- saith the Lord, (d) " . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN," JEREMIAH 31:9 (e) " . . Thou (o David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee. " PSALMS 2:7 ("FIRST BORN:" How can there be two "firstborns"?) ("BEGOTTEN" How can God beget David at the age of forty? "This day'?) Discussing this subject with Christians is like hitting a brick wall.If men can clone animals these days what was such a big deal for Allah to create Esa(a) from Murrium(a) as a warning to Jews that it was end of His link to the Israelites and chance for forgivness. And also to give them a jolt to think that there was power looking over their bad behavior. As Esa(a) said he was sent to the house of Israel. I wonder what did gentiles got to with him that became such a religion  Lastly if God could create Esa immaculately the he could also save him from the blood thirsty Jewish mob bent upon crucifying him for telling them the truth! Cant you see even today the Christian Bush and Jewish neocon's lying campaign ti invade Iraq proves what Jesus would have gone through. 
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:23pm
Acts 9Saul's Conversion1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. 10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" 11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." 13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." 15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord�Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here�has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Paul was hand picked by Jesus to preach to the gentiles. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 2:29pm
Quote from the MODS You are now "dumping", which is prohibited (see the thread at beginning of interfaith section). If you want to argue that a verse supports your view of your NT, then argue for that verse and show it to be as you say. "Dumping" is a game, which includes pasting a long line of verses with nothing more than an assertion labled on the paste. Please follow the rules. ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 4:25pm
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I was answering this statement- "As Esa(a) said he was sent to the house of Israel. I wonder what did gentiles got to with him that became such a religion Muslims expect referneces - that's ok then they say - no Paul just had a dream - so I post the fact that there was a witness to the situation outside the event- Ananias ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
"Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:39pm
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believer writes:"I think the message really changes with the Quran depending on which translator you use. " But Quran has the original text and language to check back, the Bible don't. Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 9:55am
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Actually as the scribes copied the detering texts there was a special format they followed to make sure the copies were correct. Check out this verse. It shows that the copies were checked with the originals so they knew if the new were good copies of the old.
Jeremiah 8:
7 Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 2:46pm
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LOL!! I found a partial answer to my original questions on this thread -
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12232 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12232
This is a fact described in the Quran that Jesus was Kalimah (a word or message or meaningful sentence) from God (given to Mary). It is also described in the Quran that Jesus was a spirit from God. So, in short, we Muslims believe that Jesus was: 1. Kalimatullah (a word from Allah) 2. Roohullah, (Spirit from Allah) 3. Nabi Allah, (Prophet of Allah) 4. Rasool Allah, (Messenger from Allah) 5. Ayatullah, ( A sign from Allah) Ch. 19, verse 21 6. Rehmatullah (Mercy from Allah) 7. Abdullah (Servant of Allah) 8. Mubarak, (Blessed from Allah) 9. In peace all the time, Thanks minuteman
I have been saying for a long time but maybe not on this forum that Jesus was the Message!! Am I stretching the word from Allah too far in Muslim eyes?
Do Muslims consider each of us a spirit from Allah?
A sign from Allah to what end?
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:11pm
Muslims believe that all of Allah's Messengers and Prophets are the same. If you had read the Quran, which I believe you wrote somewhere that you had read it three times, you would know that Allah states there is no difference between the Prophets and Messengers.
Quit looking for something that just isn't there. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:12pm
Then how do you explain the discrepancies in the New Testament? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:46pm
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"5:116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." (Al-Ma'idah) ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:51pm
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Hi believer,
you wrote, "Actually as the scribes copied the detering texts there was a special format they followed to make sure the copies were correct. Check out this verse. It shows that the copies were checked with the originals so they knew if the new were good copies of the old"
But where is the Original? to the contrary to your claim here is an example, a true example of how people translate/alter/or adopt things that fulfil their purpose.
I will quote a verse from Jewish Bible (translation form Chabad.org, and the same verse from Christian Bible. I could not believe how Chrisitian altered this to preach their doctrine.
Isaiah 9:6 (New King James Version) For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Now look at the Jewish Bible, the same verse appears one number back in the the same book (Isaiah9:5) but it is its contents that are very important and different in meaning then the Christian version.
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
This is a classical example of altering for fulfilling your own agenda.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:33pm
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If you don�t mind my asking, and with the understanding in advance that I am not at all interested in perpetuating inter-religious controversies (though I do study the issues) and that I am not irreligious but, to coin a term, largely areligious (non-religious), with no particular doctrinal points of my own to try to prove, please explain how you reconcile your statement that �all messengers and prophets are the same,� with this: �These Messengers: We favored some of them over others. God spoke directly to some of them and raised up some of them in rank. We gave Clear Signs to Jesus, son of Mary, and reinforced him with the Purest Spirit. (Qur'an, 2:253)� Moreover, it has been a long time since I�ve read it, and I cannot immediately locate a copy, but isn�t it said that, during Muhammad�s night journey to Jerusalem, he was given a place of (at least seeming) preeminence above Moses and the other prophets whom he met along the way? The �ranks,� then, appear rather hierarchical and therefore at least at times unequal in nature. Could you please clarify? Thank you. Serv |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 6:40pm
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Shasta - All can be easily explained. Are there ones that really bother you? Start a new thread on those and we can work through them. The main thing is that the full message is not changed. I don't know of any true Christians that every worshipped Mary.
"Muslims believe that all of Allah's Messengers and Prophets are the same"
Except that Jesus' sides were never touched by satan. Do you know why Mohammad said this?
Muslims believe that Mohammad was?:
1. Kalimatullah (a word from Allah)
2. Roohullah, (Spirit from Allah)
5. Ayatullah, ( A sign from Allah) 6. Rehmatullah (Mercy from Allah)
8. Mubarak, (Blessed from Allah) 9. In peace all the time, ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 6:51pm
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honeto - Our ministers go through years of college learning all the languages of the Old and New Testament. They translate the Bible on their own- interesting that all come up with the basic idea that God gave us a savior in Jesus Christ.
The Apostles believed Jesus was GOD. Through the Apostles GOD has corrected His WORD.
Your Quran claims that Allah protects His Word, correct? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:51am
believer, I could not understand you. Your ministers go through much to study the bible. Our Muslim preachers also spend years in learning the religion (Quran).
There is no doubt that Jesus was a saviour for the Jews i.e. the children of Israel. But they did not accept him. Rather they rejected him. The apostles never believed that Jesus was a God. Jesus had never preached that he was a God. Jesus sent his apostles to the jewish people to preach about his mission and in that mission he never told them to go out and preach about him being a God. I never read in the whole bible that Jesus told any one of his 12 disciples to preach about his Godhead.
He later sent 70 preachers, with special instructions about where to go and where not to go and what to do and what not to do. But he never told them to go out preaching that Jesus was a God. Show me from the bible NT if Jesus ever told any of his preachers to preach the subject of him being a god incarnate. There is no such thing in the four gospels.
This subject was very serious. If at all it was to be told to people then it could not be done in dubious way. Your sentence : The Apostles believed Jesus was GOD. Through the Apostles GOD has corrected His WORD is a funny sentence, cannot be understood or believed. There was no news about the Godhead of Jesus until the enemy type disciple (Saul) came along. Until then, it was not known to any one that Jesus was a God.
You please consider our arguments about Jesus being a God because Jesus never spent one whole day telling any one that he was God. Why? ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:07pm
Allah has raised some Messengers and Prophets above others, however His instructions are clear to us:
2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Why Allah has raised some above others we do not know, but we are clearly told to make no distinction between them. If I were to hazard a guess it would be because man had previously bestowed divinity upon the Prophet Jesus and we were not to make this same mistake again.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:04pm
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Well (succinctly) put. Thank you. I better understand the position. Serv |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:58pm
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LOL!! minuteman - yes our ministers study the language of the Bible so they can translate it and understand it for themselves.
You said - "You please consider our arguments about Jesus being a God because Jesus never spent one whole day telling any one that he was God. Why?"
Jesus was sent to earth for a specific mission. If He had been recognized as GOD He would not have completed what He was meant to do. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:42am
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"Jesus was sent to earth for a specific mission. If He had been recognized as GOD He would not have completed what He was meant to do."
So he was incognito? Are you seriously saying that God deigned to come to earth as a mere man and sacrifice Himself as salvation for all of mankind, but He had to keep it secret?
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 1:41pm
After reading your post, I was going to reply in a certain way. I prepared myself. But then read the post of http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59497&FID=10 - Shasta'sAunt and found that my reply was exactly same ( on the same lines) as http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59497&FID=10 - Shasta'sAunt had replied. I repeat that here now: (And your question was really good. It could puzzle any one)
Allah has given preference to some messengers over the other messengers, as mentioned in the verse provided. It is definite that Allah had preferred some messengers over others. But Allah has forbidden us to differentiate between the messengers, such that we believe in some of them and not to believe in some others, or to lower the status of any one messenger of Allah. It is forbidden to us. We believe that they were all truthful and same category, that is mortal human beings.
The rest is the same as http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59497&FID=10 - Shasta'sAunt has pointed out. There was no need for me to write after you had understood and appreciated the reply from Shasta'sAunt.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:23pm
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Shasta and minute, this has always been my thought - if He showed Himself as GOD who in their right mind would crucify Him? Thank you for pointing out that Jesus would never commit Kitman or Taqiyya.
Jesus was recognized as GOD by His Disciples. The other Jews believed He was calling Himself GOD.
John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:50pm
beleiver,
I am sure they go thorugh a lot of learning a lot of training on how to.........
but that does not answer my quote. Did you read the quotes I quoted from the Jewish Bible and the same verse from the Christian version of the Bible.
I want your answer to that.
As far as your orginal question, I think its already answered.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:20pm
But Jesus did not say he was God, nor did he claim to be God.
As I pointed out in an earlier thread, the Jews accused him of blasphemy and instead of admitting he was God, he deferred to God, the Father. You have posted verses in which this is exactly what he does. The Jews were saying he was claiming to be God, Jesus did not claim thus. The Jews were also looking for a reason to get rid of Jesus because he was causing trouble, and this was one of the excuses they were using.
If they were already saying that he claimed to be God, if he had in fact admitted he was God come to earth to sacrifice himself for man's salvation, how could that have changed his mission in anyway. They would not have believed him and he actually would have been crucified much sooner. Instead he side-stepped the direct answer, which you claim was "Yes. I am God" and said the he in fact had no power, it was all from God. Nor at this time did he explain that he was part of the Triune of God, equal partner to, but said that he did the Father's bidding.
I believe I also asked in an earlier thread that if Jesus were asked right out, to his face if he was God, and he did not answer yes, isn't that a lie. It was definitely deceptive.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:28pm
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Seems that not all Muslims agree on the definitions, but that is OK.
Yes I did above - honeto - Our ministers go through years of college learning all the languages of the Old and New Testament. They translate the Bible on their own- interesting that all come up with the basic idea that God gave us a savior in Jesus Christ.
Here is what I wonder- We know that Jesus is the Son of GOD, how can He then be God the Father? We know that the manifestation of GOD as Jesus follows the will of the Father. The Counsellor is the Holy Spirit and Jesus was all about turning the other cheek and loving your enemy.
This verse is talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:45pm
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"John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." But shouldn't that read that God so loved the world He gave Himself.... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:25pm
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LOL!! Now wouldn't that really confuse the Non-Christians!! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:58pm
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On the contrary, Minuteman. I always appreciate your contributions and, as importantly, your peaceful style. Thank you for seconding the thought. Best regards, Serv |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 1:09am
Christ and Messiah mean exactly the same thing!
"Christ" is the Greek word for anointed.
"Christ �n. 1 title, also now treated as a name, given to Jesus. 2 Messiah as prophesied in the Old Testament. �int. slang expressing surprise, anger, etc. [Greek, = anointed]."-Qxford Dictionary
"Messiah" is the Hebrew word for anointed.
"Messiah n. 1 a promised deliverer of the Jews. b Christ regarded as this. 2 liberator of an oppressed people. [Hebrew, = anointed]."-Oxford Dictionary
Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah
So in both instances the Quran admits that Jesus in the promised One from God.
JESUS AS �CHRIST" IN THE QUR�AN Su 3:45 Behold! The angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;" Su 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah"; --But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: -- Su 4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: So believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. Su 4:172� Section 24. Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, --He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer). Su 5:19 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His Will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all--every one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things." Su 5:75 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord" Whoever joins other gods with Allah, --Allah will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help. Su 5:78 Christ the son of Mary was no more than an Apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! Su 9:30 Section 5. The Jews call Uzair (Ezra) a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: How they are deluded away from the Truth! Su 9:31 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: There is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). Jesus admits He IS The �Messiah�:- John 4:25-26 "The woman said to him: �I know that Messiah (Greek text reads �Messias.�) is coming, who is called Christ (Greek text reads �Christos.�). Whenever that one arrives, he will declare all things to us openly.� 26 Jesus said to her: �I who am speaking to you am he.�" |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 1:31am
No because Jesus is NOT God!
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 4:59pm
your reply reminds me the scrembled eggs I ate the other day. My friend you still are unable to address my hard work's finding. How did this quote got messed up in understanding from being a message in the hands of Jews to the Christians. Here is that example again, a true example of how people translate/alter/or adopt things that fulfil their purpose and agenda.
I will quote a verse from Jewish Bible (translation form Chabad.org, and the same verse from Christian Bible. I could not believe how Chrisitian altered this to preach their doctrine.
Isaiah 9:6 (New King James Version) For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Now look at the Jewish Bible, the same verse appears one number back in the the same book (Isaiah9:5) but it is its contents that are very important and different in meaning then the Christian version.
"For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
There is not the same understanding here as you derive from your interpretation of the same.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 6:46pm
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Do you only take literal understandings from prophecy? Do you read the Quran only literally? We do call Jesus Emmanuel. It is the prediction of the fact that we call Jesus Emmanuel. Are you thinking that Mary should have called Jesus all these names? LOL! Can you imagine Mary calling Him home as a young boy for supper?
Yes I have already mentioned to you - it is another interpretation of the Holy Scripture. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 1:56pm
Response to believer Not all the christians believe that Isaiah 7:14 is a proof of divinity of christ. click http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=65 - here and see it. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 December 2008 at 5:19pm
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believer,
my friend you did not address what I wrote. Its not about different interpretation rather mis-interpretation.
Chritians changed the whole meaning by altering the text, here is how.
In the Jewish Bible it says that, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father called his name 'the prince of peace'
In the Christian Bibles its changed to, ' and his name will be called, wounderful councelor, mighty God, everlsting Father, prince of peace.'
Now note in shuffling of the words, Jesus is to be also "everlasting Father" and that's even a new one for me.
So you see, interpretation in fact is mis-interpretation.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 February 2009 at 6:14am
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LOL!! We will continue to disagree on this, there are just as many scholars that support my claims, as support your claims.
I found a literal translation of the verse I first questioned and started another thread on it. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 February 2009 at 6:22pm
beleiver,
its not about aguing, its about two completely different things.
The Jewish Bible is saying that ...God will call his name prince of peace.
While the Chrsitian took a different turn by saying ......and he will be called ... Mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 February 2009 at 6:15am
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So when do you figure a man call Mr. Prince of Peace will be born? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 15 February 2009 at 2:22am
Another meaning for Islam is PEACE. Who brought Islam to this world from God AlMighty? The answer is obvious. Muhammad ibn Abdullah.
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 February 2009 at 12:51pm
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LOL!! Nur- But according to honeto the name must be literally Prince of Peace. My understainding is that Mohammad means praiseworthy!
Actually Islam means submission. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 6:09am
I. The Meaning of Islam
Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.
Everything and every phenomenon in the world other than man is administered totally by God-made laws, ie. they are obedient to God and submissive to his laws, they are in the State of Islam. Man possesses the qualities of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law, ie, become a Muslim. Submission to the good will of God, together with obedience to His beneficial Law, ie, becoming a Muslim, is the best safeguard for man's peace and harmony. Islam dates back to the age of Adam and its message has been conveyed to man by God's prophets and messengers, including Abrahim, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Islam's message has been restored and enforced in the last stage of the religious evolution by God's last prophet and messenger, Muhammad. The word Allah in the Arabic language means God, or more accurately, The One and Only Eternal God, Creator of the Universe, Lord of all lords, King of all kings, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. The word Allah to mean God is also used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians. http://www.barghouti.com/islam/meaning.html - http://www.barghouti.com/islam/meaning.html
------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 12:51pm
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Yes I understand the root word to mean peace, more wods from the root word: salam - peace
salima -to be saved or to escape from danger
salama - the stinging of a snake
Islam - submission
So Muslims consider the Torah a piece of Islamic writings? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 18 February 2009 at 5:26am
So the Prince of Peace is Muhammad ibn Abdullah Salallahualaihiwassalam The last Prophet of Allah Our Creator. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 February 2009 at 3:42pm
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No His name is Mohammad and that means - praised one doesn't it?
According to literal theories of honeto we are looking for Mr. Prince of Peace or in arabic, I think - Amir Salam
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 1:50am
I think if you were to read about the biography of Muhammad the Prophet of Peace, The Last Messenger of God Almighty, I am sure you will shed some tears like I did.
Do you know what was his last words before he died? Ummati...Ummati...Ummati... My ummah (people), my Ummah, my ummah. (he was so worried about the future of his ummah)
And do you know who is his ummah? Those people who were born after he was born. That means us, you and me included. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 March 2009 at 6:36am
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I place my soul is in the Hands of my GOD not a mere man. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 06 March 2009 at 2:47pm
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Minuteman -
I wouldn't trust those NEW Bibles. Many things have been modified, or completely changed.
For example, one version "The Everyday Bible" published by Word Publishing has changed the infamous "666 talents of gold" given to Solomon as "50,000 pounds of gold." [1 Kings 10:14] Not very reliable. I wouldn't be surprised if the Biblical computer programmes were just as unreliable.
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 March 2009 at 8:42am
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Youdon't have as arguement there. The Bible is about understanding, not just memorizing in a language that you may not understand. LOL!! Putting the language in to something everyone can understand is the beauty of the Bible translations.
Most people that have the "The Everyday Bible" understand that it is just that an everyday common language Bible. More translations mean a deeper understanding.
http://www.sundayschoolresources.com/biblestoryactivities2.htm - http://www.sundayschoolresources.com/biblestoryactivities2.htm
Each year Solomon received gold weighing 666 talents, not including revenues from merchants and traders and the Arabian kings and governors of the land. This equals about 50,000 pounds of gold. This would be about equal to the weight of ten golden Chevrolet Suburbans or heavy duty pickup trucks. If gold is valued at $250 per troy ounce, this part of Solomon's yearly income had a value of $182 million. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 10 March 2009 at 2:23am
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If someone translate a book from a translation, the meaning may be lost due the different ideas of the translators.
When translating the Quran, translators need to understand the language of the Quran and using this as the basic or foundation for translating. If a person translate what Asad wrote or Sheikh Yusof Qardawi wrote, the meaning may be totally different from the originals.
People translate books into other languages using the original as their foundation. But this is not true for the Bible. ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 March 2009 at 8:03am
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Yes it might and that is why translators used the multitude of manuscipts to check and double check verses.
I am not sure where you are getting your information, but it is not all true.
All the manuscripts concerning Holy Scripture that could be saved have been saved. As manuscripts, letters wore out they were copied.
The main message of the Bible has not been changed. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 11 March 2009 at 3:21pm
Of course it has. It has been radically changed, if you believe Christianity. In the Old Testament the main message of the Bible was to fear and obey God or be judged and punished accordingly. In the New Testament apparently all you have to do is believe in Jesus, what we are supposed to believe isn't really clear, and you will be "saved".
Somewhere between the OT and the NT, God lost complete control of everything and man was no longer responsible to God for his own deeds and suddenly Jesus had "the power".
The old Laws given to man by God no longer mattered, the old covenants, most of them perpetual covenants stated by God to be for all of time, no longer mattered, and man doesn't even have to directly ask God for forgiveness anymore, we should pray to an intermediary even though God specifically stated in the first of the Ten Commandments: "You shall have no other Gods before me". Of course, we might have missed the part that said: except Jesus....
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 March 2009 at 3:50pm
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What are you talking about? The old Laws of GOD do matter, we have the 10 commandments. We also have the most important commandments mentioned by Jesus.
What Muslims don't understand is that following Laws and rituals don't necessarily make you godly. What is in your heart is what matters.
LOL! Christians do have just one GOD. Our perception of GOD is just a bit different. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 11 March 2009 at 5:34pm
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"We also have the most important commandments mentioned by Jesus."
Yes: Mark 12:28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. "LOL! Christians do have just one GOD. Our perception of GOD is just a bit different."
So, when you pray for forgiveness are you praying to God the father or God the son? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 March 2009 at 1:08pm
Good, that is exactly what as Muslims we do. And by the way you don't hand your soul, God has hold of our souls all the time whether one believe in Him or not.
And of course to make things clear, for us God means God, where holy ghost and Jesus are not included with Him in godhead. They were God's creations and not themselves gods.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 10:39am
YOU know the equivalent is some "50,000" pounds - but not all are aware that it ORIGINALLY was written as "666" - - - a very pertinent number of a man which equates with the prophecies in REVELATION.
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Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 11:09am
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Not many Christians bring out this verse in the Old Testament [I Kings 10:14] to stipulate the meaning of the infamous "666" in Revelation/Apocalypse [13:18].
All seem to equate it with a form of numerology, rather than a hint to the 40-year old kingdom of Solomon. Great in its time. But extinct. His empire was the most admired in the old world - the "power" and "wisdom" however great, DID NOT afford him his "kingdom" on earth.
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Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 13 March 2009 at 11:12am
How very true. And this is the main reason why the Quran will endure.
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Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 14 March 2009 at 1:45pm
The Jesus in the quran is in fact not the true Jesus as described in the bible the true Jesus was not born under a palm tree may be Muhammad did listen very good when the christians told him about Jesus he was born in a stable.
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Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 12:33am
The problem is which one can be trusted more. For muslim, quran is can not be wrong. ------------- Salam/Peace, Semar "We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) "1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air" |
Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:30am
So everything that is wrong as long it is writen in the quran it is true, why is Jesus birth not simular as in the bible where did Muhammad get his information from if everybody in world knows he was born in a stable.
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Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:05pm
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So everything that is wrong as long it is writen in the quran it is true, why is Jesus birth not simular as in the bible where did Muhammad get his information from if everybody in world knows he was born in a stable.
If 911 is the biggest fraud in modern history, the Bible is the biggest fraud in all of history.
How many years had the bible been fooling Christians? more than 2000 years.
No wonder Christians are coming into Islam in droves.
Subhanallah! ------------- Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 2:19pm
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Funny you should mention 666 please read: http://www.haderek.ca/articles/prophecy/revelation13.htm - http://www.haderek.ca/articles/prophecy/revelation13.htm
Nur - So the Quran is lying in the following verses?!?! 3:3
He descended on you The Book with the truth, confirming to what between His hands, and He descended the Torah and the New Testament/Bible. YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee, in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law and the Gospel before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion. PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
003.084
Say: "We believed with God, and what descended on us, and what descended on Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the grandchildren , and what Moses and Jesus and the prophets were given/brought from their Lord, we do not separate/distinguish/differentiate between any from them, and we are for Him submitters/surrenderers."
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will."
PICKTHAL: Say: We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit. 5:44
That We descended the Torah/Old Testament, in it guidance and light, the prophets those who submitted/surrendered , judge/rule with it, to those who guided/Jews , and the knowledgeable Lord worshippers , and the religious scholars with what they memorized/safe kept from God's Book , and they were not on it witnessing/present ; so do not fear the people and fear Me, and do not buy/volunteer with My signs/verses a small price, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the disbelievers.
YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law: therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. SHAKIR: Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves judged for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they 5:46 And We sent after on their tracks with Jesus, Mary's son confirming for what between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and We gave him the New Testament/Bible in it guidance and light, and confirming to what between his hands from the Torah/Old Testament, and guidance and a sermon/advice/warning to the fearing and obeying. YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. 5:47 YUSUFALI:And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. 5:48 And We descended to you The Book with the truth , confirming to what between his hands from The Book, and guarding/protecting on it, so judge/rule between them with what God descended and do not follow their self attractions for desires about what came to you from the truth, to each from you We made/put God's decreed way of life/method/law and order , and a clear/easy/plain way , and if God wanted/willed, He would have made you one nation/generation, and but to test you in what He gave you, so race/surpass the goodnesses/generosity, to God your return altogether, so He informs you with what you were in it differing/disagreeing (P). YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; 5:68 Say: "You The Book's people, you are not on a thing, until you keep up the Torah/Old Testament and the Bible/New Testament , and what was descended to you from your (P) Lord." And what was descended to you (S/M) from your Lord increases (E) many of them tyranny/arrogance, and disbelief, so do not grieve/sadden on the nation, the disbelieving. YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over people without Faith. Then We brought/gave Moses The Book complete on that best detailing/explaining to every thing, and guidance, and mercy, maybe they believe with their Lord's meeting.
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. SHAKIR: Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 2:23pm
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Who said the Bible was translated from a translation? The scibes of the Bible were learned men and could read and write in hebrew, greek and aramaic! LOL! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 March 2009 at 3:56pm
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Believer,
Yes Muslims believe that God sent Holy texts to Moses and Jesus, however these texts were corrupted. Quoting passages from The Quran stating that God sent these texts does not negate the fact that the texts were corrupted.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 18 March 2009 at 11:25pm
How can torah and the gospel be corrupted by few words or sevaral texts or the entire scriptures.
Because of the quran the muslims believe everything in torah and the gospel is false or corrupt.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 2:05pm
Jouberar,
things read and understood wrong can not just mislead us they can also cause our doom, we believe.
Muslims, as myself don't believe that everything in Torah and the Gospel is false or corrupt. We do believe for sure that it has been altered by men and that is different than what you have said.
We believe, that God revealed them to His messangers, and those who followed and were in charge of their keeping twisted, deleted, added, altered parts that suite their interests and understanding, while the word of God in order to be pure was never to be treated as such. As it is said in the Bible, if one corrupts a word, corrupts the whole.
The result was a unsure situation where the pure word of God thus did not exist, so God revealed His pure word for the guidance of those who were still living and were to come till the end so they can be judged by it, the Quran.
Now, for me studying the Bible was an eye opener, I could not believe the degree of inconsistancies I was finding in it. And my conclusion was a confirmation that this book, the Bible, has been corrupted by men. It contradicts many issues, but the most important three: God, Jesus, and Salvation it is full of inconsistancies, if you are not aware of them, let me know and I will guide you through them.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 March 2009 at 2:25pm
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"How can torah and the gospel be corrupted by few words or sevaral texts or the entire scriptures.
Because of the quran the muslims believe everything in torah and the gospel is false or corrupt."
It really doesn't matter if there are 5 contradictions or 5 million, it is still contradictory and inconsistent. Once men made Jesus into God who must be worshipped in order to receive salvation they corrupted the Word of God from the Bible:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
"For this is what the Lord says � he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited � he says: `I am the Lord, and there is no other� "
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."
"I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. "
"You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; And there is no savior besides Me."
From The Quran:
2:163 (Y. Ali) And your Allah is one Allah. There is no God but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2:255 (Y. Ali) Allah. There is no God but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
40:65 (Y. Ali) He is the Living: There is no God but He: Call upon Him, giving Him sincere devotion. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds!
59:23 (Y. Ali) Allah is He, than Whom there is no other God;- the Sovereign, the Holy one, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah. (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 20 March 2009 at 8:53am
Hasan answer this question for me are there false muslims and are there true muslims and how do you know the difference ?
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Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 20 March 2009 at 9:27am
You must do some beter research aunty contradiction doesn't gave you an excuse to drink from the devils cup
This image of sitting "at the right hand of the Father" is influenced by Psalm 110 (1): "The Lord said to my lord: 'Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool.'" The image itself comes from the ancient world of kings and courts where the all-powerful king was surrounded by his ministers, with the most powerful and favored one sitting just to the right of the king. Hence, it means in this case that Jesus is one with the Father and shares in his sovereign power over the world and the cosmos. New Testament passages make clear that Jesus is "on the right hand of God" in the sense of having divine power, honor, glory, and preeminence. Jesus Himself said, "Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 16:64). "Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God" (Luke 22:69)
Jesus was "by the right hand of God exalted" (Acts 2:33). He "is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (I Peter 1:22). God "raised him [Christ] from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is lamed, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" Ephesians 1:20-21). "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" (Colossians 3:1). When Stephen was stoned, he "saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55). He did not see two personages, but he saw the glory of God surrounding Jesus, who was revealed in the position of supreme power and authority. While on earth Jesus appeared to be an ordinary man and He lived as such with His disciples, but after His resurrection and ascension He appeared with visible glory and power as the almighty God. Although John had been Christ's closest associate while He was on earth and knew Him well, when He saw the ascended Christ in a vision he "fell at his feet as dead" (Revelation 1:17). Unlike Christ's typical appearance on earth, John saw Him in His divine glory. Please Aunty go read the bible and will see Jesus is the Son of God not God himself but he has got full authority from God to judge the living and the dead. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 March 2009 at 12:46pm
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"Please Aunty go read the bible and will see Jesus is the Son of God not God himself but he has got full authority from God to judge the living and the dead."
Perhaps you should correct the other Christians on this thread who are arguing that Jesus is God. Then, once all of the Christians are in agreement, come and discuss what Muslims believe.... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: JOUBERAR
Date Posted: 20 March 2009 at 11:11pm
They must do a thorough study of the bible.
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Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 2:53pm
The Quran can not be wrong. That is correct! The Quran is definitely calling Jesus, "MESSIAH". (Messiah is only the Greek word, "Christos" - meaning annointed one, deliverer)
That above quote is one of my favorite quotes in the Quran. It is the reason why I kept reading.
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 5:14pm
Then as a Christian isn't it your duty to correct your fellow Christians who are calling Jesus God? I would think that would take precedence over us Muslims who don't believe Jesus is God. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 21 March 2009 at 7:31pm
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No doubt there are 'false Muslims' and people correct people.. several keys are: -believing/professing that another Prophet came after Prophet Mohammed (SAWS) -believing/professing that there is more than one God -claiming to speak for God if someone is blatant about it,well its obvious. Otherwise Muslims are encouraged to let Allah do the judging, focus on remaining humble and obedient ourselves. No one can say what another thinks really or feels in their heart. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 9:04am
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Hayfa and shasta - Do you deny that the taliban exists? That they are twisting the Quranic verses to use them to do their ibdding?
When a Chistian is killing in the name of GOD/Jesus then there is an unroar from Christians.
LOL!! The Quran could be wrong and no more than comments from Mohammad about monotheism. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 7:45pm
I don't know if a group the U.S. identifies as the Taliban, that acts the way the U.S. describes, exists. Just as I don't know that a group the U.S. identifies as al-Qaeda, that acts the way the U.S. describes, exists.
I have seen no valid proof of either as presented to us by the U.S. and western media. As far as I know they are just names assigned by our government to create boogeymen or give people here an entity to blame for those seeking retribution against the U.S. for their foreign policies. Instead of having to say that a group of people are fighting the U.S. because our government has interferred with their lives for the better part of a century, they can say there is a vast network of unknown enemies who might strike at us at anytime for reasons unknown other than they hate our freedom and the name of this evil group is al-Qaeda. We don't know where they are or who they are or what they are planning, BUT we know they exist!!!!
One of my best friends is from Afghanistan and her family had to flee the country in order to keep from being killed, but it was not by a group called the "Taliban" by Afghanis but rather a group of tribal hoodlums who had taken control through force.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 March 2009 at 10:37am
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Shasta- I hope your friends are safe now. Do you think they will be able to go back?
Do you feel that the USA suppling weapons to the taliban when they were fighting the soviets was a good or bad thing? Are you in the USA?
I am tempted to say we need to stick to our own business, but then we are blamed for not doing anything!
Hayfa - if Muslims are to let Allah do the judging then why cut off hands when someone steals? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 March 2009 at 2:19pm
Jouberar,
sorry I did not see this post until now, but here I am.
you are asking a question only God can and will answer it on the Day of Assembly. But let me say this if any submitts His whole self to God, does not worship beside God anything/anyone. Believes in the Day of Judgement when all truth will be revealed about each one of us, follow the limits set by God ,and mend their conduct based on fear of Justice those are the true believers and will be the ones who achieve Salvation.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Eaisha
Date Posted: 12 April 2009 at 11:34am
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A rule I follow:
In the secular world, to look up a particular subject, you would usually consult the age-old encyclopedia. Pretending you had 3 sets of ENCYCLOPEDIAS, ....wouldn't it be most logical to research the NEWEST- the most recently published?
In this respect - Divinely speaking - our most recent text is the Quran. The New Testament and the Torah are older editions .....
however, not to be totally discarded.
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Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 April 2009 at 4:17pm
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I believe that to truly understand the Quran without man-made hadith and tasfir you must have read the Bible or at least read them together. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 4:56pm
Ibn Maryam ( Jesus , Son Of Mary ) ; 2 ; 87 , 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 157 , 4 ; 171 , 5 ; 49 , 5 ; 81 , 5 ; 113 , 5 ; 115 , 5 ; 117 , 5 ; 119 , 19 ; 34 , 33 ; 7 , 57 ; 27 , 61 ; 6 , Fourteen times as the Son of Mary , Ibn Maryam ) alone or with some other title; 5 ; 19 ( twice ), 49 ; 78 , 113 , 115 , 117 , 119 , 9 ; 31 , 19 ; 34 , 23 ; 50 , 43 ; 57 , 57 ; 27 , 61 ; 6 . Once as the sign of the hour -- Alamus Saa'ati ) ; 43 ; 61 Eleven times as Rasuwl , 2 ; 87 , 3 ; 49 , 4 ; 157 , 5 ; 78 , 57 ; 27 , 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 52 - 53 , 4 ; 171 , 5 ; 114 , 61 ; 6 , The Messiah Jesus is mentioned on the Qur'an nine times named in conjuction with other Prophets ; 2; 136 , 3 ; 84 , 4 ; 163 , 5 ; 81 , 33 ; 7 , 42 ; 13 , 57 ; 26 - 27 , 6 ; 85 , The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as Isa in the Qur'an 10 times; 2 ; 136 , 3 ; 51 , 3 ; 54 , 3 ; 59 , 3 ; 84 , 4 ; 163 , 6 ; 85 , 42 ; 13 , 19 ; 34 , 43 ; 63 , The Messiah Jesus occurs in connection with Ar Ruhu -- as often as five times in the Qur'an. 2 ; 87 , 2 ; 253 , 5 ; 110 , 4 ; 171 , 21 ; 91 , ------------- El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) . |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 April 2011 at 3:33pm
been there, done that, and I am glad I did that. Now I have a clear picture of what the Bible's true reality is and it is true what God has told us in the Quran, that there is only one God, God does not have a son, nor a Father.
And that those who call Jesus son of God or God are uttering nothing less than a great blasphemy for which they will pay heavily. And that the Bible has been ultered, for that it has contradictions in it,while if it was still pure word of God, it would not have those inconsistenties.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 August 2014 at 6:19pm
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Question: If Jesus was not the Son of God, then who was He, and where did His Wisdom come from, and why would God permit it to be lost? If muslims believe that the Word of Yshwe and the prophets could be permitted to become corrupted, why would they think that the word given by Muhammad would be any different, or escape this same fate? If the Word of Yshwe was lost, as muslims believe, then why did God not re-give it to Muhammad to share? Muhammad said that if you had questions you were to take those questions to the people of the Book. If God was going to protect His Word, doesn't it make sense that He would do it from the beginning? Why would He protect one and not the other? Are men coming after Muhammad any different than the men who came after Moses, and Yshwe? Either God protects His Word, or He does not. It makes no sense that He would protect one and not the other. asalaam, and shukran for your answers, Caringheart ------------- Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever "I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis |