Assalamu alaikum,

How can anyone believe america stands for freedom and democracy when they help cover up the slaughter of, by some estimates, 750 unarmed protestors, simply because the dictator of that country lets them have an airbase there?

Assalamu alaikum,

I truly don't think there are that many people left on earth who believe that America stands for freedom and democracy.  Just as the Romans once did, the "great empire" is hanging itself.  Truth will out.

Peace, ummziba.

Akhi whoever believed that America ever stood for anything other than the Dollar?

Please take a one dollar bill and study it carefully. It says: "In God we Trust". Actually it was meant to be "In this God We Trust" but the typographer ran out of space on the designed dollar.

When you believe in market economy and just follow Anna Frued created consumerism you cease to be counted as humans.

Please try to be realistic. America is just one country. America is not omnipotent. We can't clean up the whole world all at once, especially when we get help from almost no one and when there are so many people like your lunatic murder/suicide brethren who make it hard to clean up even just one mess like Iraq. (And no, we did not make this mess. Arabs and Turks and the French are mostly to blame.)

We Americans are good people. Perhaps your one-sided, propaganda-filled world has miseducated you and given you a view of history that is outrageously skewed. I doubt that Muhjammad would approve.

Think we are so bad? What great good have your Muslim countries given the world lately? Seems to me all they export are poisonous oil fumes, terrorist murderers and suicides, threats, and insults.

And who do these Mulsim nations call on when they need medical aid, food, or military protection from Muslim monsters like Saddam?

And we are always there for you. So, how about a little respect?

Peace.

Astro

Astrophysicist wrote:   Think we are so bad? What great good have your Muslim countries given the world lately? Seems to me all they export are poisonous oil fumes, terrorist murderers and suicides, threats, and insults.

Who own the most and biggest cars? Which country is the biggest gas-guzzler in the world?

And who do these Mulsim nations call on when they need medical aid, food, or military protection from Muslim monsters like Saddam?

You. And you supply weapons to Saddam in order to help him invade Iraq, if I remember correctly. That's why you invaded Iraq to find the WMD - you still have the receipts.

And we are always there for you. So, how about a little respect?

Only when it suits you. Yes, I believe the US started off being more magnanimous and actually _genuinely_ being generous and caring back in the old days (pre-1945, maybe), but something happened after that and I don't quite know what it was. 

US control of the world is becomming ever more insidious (Google "ugg boots australia US trademark", if you don't believe me) and it's damn scary and something needs to be done about it.

I, for one, am extremely angry Australia signed a free-trade agreement with the US - we will disappear soon, I'm sure.

I wish Australia could work out a way to not have loads of important dealings with both the USA and China. The world should be slapping sanctions on BOTH countries until they quit their lying propaganda and  take up Human Rights. 

Kim...

Or try: http://www.saveouraussieicon.com/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3495511.stm

But the joke's on you lot: http://www.defamer.com/topic/ugg-boots-the-sound-of-australi a-laughing-at-us-017994.php

kim! wrote: Astrophysicist wrote:   Think we are so bad? What great good have your Muslim countries given the world lately? Seems to me all they export are poisonous oil fumes, terrorist murderers and suicides, threats, and insults. Who own the most and biggest cars? Which country is the biggest gas-guzzler in the world?

I am with you on this one. In fact, I'd love to see the U.S. ends its use of petroleum altogether.

Funny thing, though -- I don't think that your typical terrorist type wants that. I remember one post on this site a few years ago in which a Jihadist was trying to spur his fellows on to trying to destroy the U.S. economy quickly, before we could develop alternative energy sources! See? At least some of them are just after the oil wealth! In fact, those who are are probably the ones with much of the means to put a lot of the lies and other propaganda out here in Muslim media and web sites like this to whip you up into a war-like frenzy. It's very sad, really.

kim! wrote: [Muslim nations call on] You [for medical aid, food, and military protection]. And you supply weapons to Saddam in order to help him invade Iraq, if I remember correctly. That's why you invaded Iraq to find the WMD - you still have the receipts.

I guess I present facts in vain about U.S. weapons sales to Saddam. It makes me feel that trying to discuss these matters with you is pointless.

Again, the U.S. weapons sales were miniscule. If you look at records, you will find mostly Soviet, French, and German weapons in his arsenal --  mostly Soviet.

Clever argument about the WMD: you make the absence of proof into proof itself. No doubt it is pointless to try to persuade you otherwise. It seems that you must ignore the much more realistic and undeniable humanitarian reasons I have stated elsewhere in other threads.

kim! wrote: [You are there] only when it suits you.

Again, we are but one country. But still we do a lot. You can make arguments any way you want whether something is in our interest or not and always find a way of explaining things to make us look good or bad. We give more food aid than anyone, more medical aid -- including the fight against AIDS in Africa aa and so on. We were the first on the scene in Indonesia with the most massive resources after the December '04 tsunami. (Our ten of billions of costs in naval fleet operations in this effort has never been used in determining our total relief effort there, which continues today.)

We can't do it all, especially when in places like Iraq, where intervention was clearly required to bring an end to the sanctions, we are getting stabbed inthe back by the collapsing French, Russian, and German governments, who saw ill-gotten monies from Iraqi oil and arms sales as ways of helping prop up their failing socialist policies.

kim! wrote: Yes, I believe the US started off being more magnanimous and actually _genuinely_ being generous and caring back in the old days (pre-1945, maybe), but something happened after that and I don't quite know what it was.

I do. Some people call it WWI and WWII, which is really just one war with a long intermission, followd by the spread of Communism in the wake of that war. My Albanian Muslim friends, for example, fled Albania when the Communists siezed power in '49 and started murdering those who didn't like having their property siezed. (I could share lots of horror stories about the Communists.) Anyway, after WWII, the U.S. decided it might be better to not wait until things spiraled out of control into a WWIII before taking action to counter developing problems.

kim! wrote: US control of the world is becomming ever more insidious (Google "ugg boots australia US trademark", if you don't believe me) and it's damn scary and something needs to be done about it.

I will check on the Ugg boots trademrk, as you suggest. (I've had several pairs, myself.) I do know that the Chinese have had no regard for our patents and trademarks. I don't know if this is somehow related to that.

kim! wrote: I, for one, am extremely angry Australia signed a free-trade agreement with the US - we will disappear soon, I'm sure.

No way. The Japanese failed, the Islamo-Fascists will fail, and the U.S. loves you the way you are.

kim! wrote: I wish Australia could work out a way to not have loads of important dealings with both the USA and China. The world should be slapping sanctions on BOTH countries until they quit their lying propaganda and  take up Human Rights.

Despite the propaganda to which you apparently have been exposed, the U.S. is the greatest champion of human rights ever. We even coined the phrase. The people you have to worry about are the Islamo-Fascist terrorists. Even aid workers get theri heads carved off by those animals.

Peace.

Astro

Assalamu alaikum,

The thread was initially about America's efforts to stop Nato's investigation of the massacre in Uzbekistan. These efforts are documented and publicly known. Astrophysicist has chosen not to respond to this obvious example of America's deliberate attempts to hinder the cause of human rights to spew his own bigotry.

Astro, I am becoming very fond of you.

You remind me of my childhood, of Saadi Shirazi and above all of his famous Hikayaat. Best of all you remind me of dukandaar (shopkeeper) in one hikayet. My favourite character.

I am missing his name right now. Age perhaps! But then we could call him Guloo just for our groups' sake.

One day, after a long session with his pupils, Saadi felt like a bowl of chick pea shorbeh (soup). He headed for Guloo's shop and and said;

"Hi Guloo, please,  pack me a measure of chick peas."

Guloo sat up on his mat. Gave Saadi a big smile and, started with this tale of how he had accidentally met with this merchant passing through the town and how he managed to obtain a pair of fine quality Isfahan Lamps.

Guloo stands up, lifts the pair from a corner shelf, buffs it with his shirt sleeves and puts it before our the Farsi poet, writer, thinker, whatever else he was.

Saadi smiles.

Bet he was some cute patient chap! He tells Guloo that he wasn�t at all interested in lamps or anything else for that matter on such an empty tummy. All he wanted was a bit of lentils if Guloo had run out of chick peas!

Guloo walks away to the other end of his shop and lifts a Bukhara teapot.

He brings it to Saadi and asks if it wasn't a sheer beauty?

The tale goes on and on and on. I don't have Saadi's pen or his words to tell it in any reasonable manner. Plus, I am stuck in a language, which is possibly the best language in the world legal drafts and business letters but it�s totally lost on tales, poetry, philosophy or other such art forms.

Astro reminds me of my childhood, of Saadi, of his Hikayaat and of course of Guloo. Each time I read one of his posts, I can't help smiling and just calling him Guloo instead.

Just for an instance, here we are talking about Karimov and his butchery.

His troops have killed thousands of villagers just last month. Those poor unarmed men, women and children were protesting for the �freedom� his regime enjoys in the art of torture and killing. It's a proven fact that he boils people alive in water if the right quantity of oil is not at hand. He impales opponents or their relatives when the dissident is not caught.

And all of that with explicit U S and UK support. Not just that but also they pay him something like $230 MILLION a year to keep practising his favourite hobby.

The point at hand is how the world community was trying to probe into the recent killings and how the great champions of �human rights� and �freedom� stepped in to kill this probe.

But our Guloo stands up chanting his own wares; of Isfahan lamps or some Bukhara teapots. I understand and feel for his trauma. We are all human and anyone of us can run into any form of such testing times. Could there ever be a more testing time than seeing what you had taken as more sacred than perhaps even your own mother just crash to the ground, lying all around you in a thousand shards?

I can understand his agony, his pain and also, at times, the venom he spits. Just think about it for a moment. How would I feel if all my tax dollars were spent on keeping the world's largest single army and that army kept fleeing from each Imperial venture, from every single front in my entire living memory?

Isn't it sad when myths shatter? or, just explode into our faces?

I can feel his agony. I can feel his pain. But there is nothing we can do about it. The sad fact is; khud karda ra ilaaj e neest (Farsi � there�;s no cure for the self inflicted wound) Sad, but it�s the law of life.

We can do nothing.

At this moment of time I can just attempt to relieve him of just some burden of painful misconceptions.

• The Arabs, the Turks and the French are not even remotely connected with this mess in Uzbekistan.
• They are not responsible for the mess in Iraq.
• They did NOT invade Iraq
• Bush, Blair and Burlesconi did
• or shall we say the �B Team� did it?

He keeps on mentioning history.

Does he really wish to discuss history? Shall we start with what I have seen with my own eyes? Should we start with 1953? When the American invaded Iran, on behest of the American Iranian Oil Co and binned an ELECTED peoples� government?

�      What great good have your Muslim countries given the world lately?

My friend all the oil you need for running your lives + economy

�      Seems to me all they export are poisonous oil fumes

I can swear upon my honour, we have not forced you to import oil for a single moment. You have your own oil why can�t you live with it? Why kill and maim our poor kids just for the sake of controlling our oil?

�      terrorist murderers and suicides, threats, and insults.

It�s a very sad fact of life my friend. When you invade a country that�s just what you get. We never promised you any Rose Garden. Your Vice President did.

Please ask him.

�      I guess I present facts in vain about U.S. weapons sales to Saddam. It makes me feel that trying to discuss these matters with you is pointless.

Yes. You are right about the pointlessness of your discussion.

Make it a bit realistic, cut the dreams and the fantasies out and see how all begin to take you for serious.

�      when in places like Iraq, where intervention was clearly required to bring an end to the sanctions

Really? You think anyone in the whole wide world would believe that the White House and his poodle could not end the sanctions � ESPECIALLY � when Saddam had offered to hold free elections and quit in two years.

(International News � Feb 2003 � SUPRESSED in a �Free� country by your media EXACTLY like the Downing Street Memo news was blacked out by your mainstream media)

�      helping prop up their failing socialist policies

Be honest what do you know about Socialism or even about Social charter that we follow here in Europe? Were you ever given or allowed a chance to know anything about socialism in your great "Free" country?

Did uncle Macarthy ever permit you any choice in this matter?

All economies have their ups and downs.

But thank goodness we are treated okay even at the worst of times. All our needs are met. Women don�t have to join the army or otherwise prostitute themselves just for going through the college. We would not opt for the dirty Capture It All ism ever in our wake. We are sane people. We are not just Americans.

Post a New Topic and we will talk about that.

Can you define your term of Islamo-Fascist?

Have the Muslims ever told you how to live your life? Have they ever prescribed how your women should dress or how they should undress?

Are they trying to steal your oil or the Grand Canyon?

Have they invaded your lands?

Can�t you understand that enough does become enough at some point and people do fight back. It�s not their fault that your army is just a useless white Elephant and misbehaving bunch at that.

I feel if the Americans took responsibility for their behaviour and that Capture It All urge the world would beging to see them in a different light.

Assalamu alaikum,

Great post, akhi.

I guess I should simply not try to read these posts.  They make me too .  As an American I do not believe in many of our government policies, ESPECIALLY the current international policies, nor do I feel good about our current policy makers.  However, I do think it's unfair to make it appear that all Americans are bad.  It seems to me that as long as we keep pointing the finger and trying to make everything someone's fault, we waste so much time and energy that could be better used elsewhere.  Governments are going to be governments with their own agendas (not that this is a good thing but it�s reality...check out history if you don't believe me), but as individual members of the human race, we are more than members of a certain nation or race or culture.  I guess growing up having to come to terms with being 1/2 Native American and 1/2 Anglo Saxon, has helped me learn that life is more complex than any one of us can comprehend and sometimes it's simply better if we chose to be a part of the cure and not a part of the problem.  When we point fingers and fight over things that are not within our control, we become a part of the problem and lose all sight of a possible solution.

PAZ (peace)

Hola! Khadija. I respect your point. Could you please suggest that possible solution?

Here in Spain we say "Otro mundo es possible" - the other world is possible. And we also know that the "other world" will be possible only once the US is totally disarmed.

For that we need to educate people about the U S history sheet of half a century of attrocities and "Capture It All ism" at it's worst end. And, today, that's every single human beings duty to stand and be counted against the U S just for Global peace.

Paz y luz

Akhi el aziz

Been looking for words all these days to thank you.

We are not communicating. You do not hear or understand what I say.

You folks have a perspective on American history and policy that I know to be completely wrong and that is based on the propaganda that your crazy imams have been putting in your heads all your lives. At this stage of the consequent mental affliction, you cannot be reached.

Your imams think that they represent the will of God. They do not. They are demonstrably insane and know less than nothing. They are a perverse and evil influence. They are creating and driving generations of murderers who know not the truth of the world and who know not what evil they do.

Astro

Astrophysicist wrote: We are not communicating. You do not hear or understand what I say.

And you are being obtuse. You are saying that America believes in justice and democracy, while I have presented confirmed evidence that America is helping a brutal dictator cover up the massacre of innocent civilians. Abtract theories fail when the data contradicts them.