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Faith vs. Works

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Topic: Faith vs. Works
Posted By: dzkouns
Subject: Faith vs. Works
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 6:19pm

So, according to the Quran, salvation is based on works and faith.  Basically, you can do whatever you want, but if as long as you do a good deed.  How can one earn salvation?  If God is so perfect, how can even one sinful person be allowed to enter Heaven?  I mean, imagine if the government legal systems worked like this.  Imagine if a serial murderer and rapist donated billions of dollars to charity to feed thousands of starving children in Africa.  Would we sit by and watch the judge release the guy because of his good deeds?

And as for those who believe and do good works, He will pay them their wages in full (Surah 3:57, emp. added).

Then, as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will He pay their wages in full, adding unto them of His bounty; and as for those who were scornful and proud, them will He punish with a painful doom (Surah 4:173, emp. added).

O ye who believe! If ye keep your duty to Allah, He will give you discrimination (between right and wrong) and will rid you of your evil thoughts and deeds, and will forgive you. Allah is of infinite bounty (Surah 8:29, emp. added).

And those who believed and did good works are made to enter the Gardens underneath which rivers flow, therein abiding by permission of their Lord, their greeting therein: Peace! (Surah 14:23, emp. added).

Say: O My slaves who have been prodigal to their own hurt! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, Who forgiveth all sins. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. Turn unto Him repentant, and surrender unto Him, before there come unto you the doom, when ye cannot be helped (Surah 39:53-54, emp. added).

And those who believe and do good works and believe in that which is revealed unto Muhammad�and it is the truth from their Lord�He riddeth them of their ill-deeds and improveth their state (Surah 47:2, emp. added).

And whosoever striveth, striveth only for himself, for lo! Allah is altogether Independent of (His) creatures. And as for those who believe and do good works, We shall remit from them their evil deeds and shall repay them the best that they did.... And as for those who believe and do good works, We verily shall make them enter in among the righteous (Surah 29:6-7,9, emp. added).

Thou seest the wrong-doers fearful of that which they have earned, and it will surely befall them; while those who believe and do good works (will be) in flowering meadows of the Gardens, having what they wish from their Lord. This is the great preferment. This it is which Allah announceth unto His bondmen who believe and do good works. Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee therefore, save lovingkindness among kinsfolk. And whoso scoreth a good deed We add unto its good for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Responsive. Or say they: He hath invented a lie concerning Allah? If Allah willed, He could have sealed thy heart (against them). And Allah will wipe out the lie and will vindicate the truth by His words. Lo! He is aware of what is hidden in the breasts (of men). And He it is Who accepteth repentance from his bondmen, and pardoneth the evil deeds, and knoweth what ye do. And accepteth those who do good works, and giveth increase unto them of His bounty. And as for disbelievers, theirs will be an awful doom (Surah 42:22-26, emp. added).

And lo! unto each thy Lord will verily repay his works in full. Lo! He is informed of what they do. So tread thou the straight path as thou art commanded, and those who turn (unto Allah) with thee, and transgress not. Lo! He is Seer of what ye do.... Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill deeds. This is a reminder for the mindful. And have patience, (O Muhammad), for lo! Allah loseth not the wages of the good (Surah 11:111-112,114-115, emp. added).

Now, consider what the New Testament has to say about this topic.

Ephesians 2:8-9  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:23-25   for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 10:1-10  Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'"(that is, to bring Christ down) or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'"(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 

God knows that His standard is too high, so He offered a way to save us.  If God simply showed mercy just because we tried to do a few good deeds, what kind of just God is that?  I believe in a God of justice who demands payment for sins.  But the good news is that He has provided this and shown that His grace is sufficient for our salvation.  How many of you become frustrated because you try your hardest to please Allah and you wonder if it will ever be enough?




Replies:
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:26pm
"So, according to the Quran, salvation is based on works and faith.  Basically, you can do whatever you want, but if as long as you do a good deed.  How can one earn salvation?  If God is so perfect, how can even one sinful person be allowed to enter Heaven?  I mean, imagine if the government legal systems worked like this.  Imagine if a serial murderer and rapist donated billions of dollars to charity to feed thousands of starving children in Africa.  Would we sit by and watch the judge release the guy because of his good deeds?"
 
No, you can't do whatever you want. Didn't you just point out that you have to have faith and do good deeds?  You will also be judged upon ALL of your deeds. The good and the bad. No one gets a free ride. You have to earn salvation on your own, not through intercession.
 
Your example of the serial murderer applies more to Christianity, where you can kill a million people, say that you believe Jesus is the savior, and be forgiven. Good deeds are not necessary, you REALLY can do whatever you want.
 
Ephesians 2:8  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God� 2:not by works
 
but wait, here's the Bible contradicting what Paul just said in the Bible, and actually stating what you accuse the Quran of stating.... hmmmm.....what's a good Christian to believe? 
 
James 2
 
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that�and shudder.

 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Do you not believe that God is perfect?
 
Why would any Muslim get tired of trying to please God?  Just because we don't believe in a magic get into heaven free card doesn't mean we don't believe in salvation. God is The Most Merciful, Oft Forgiving, and we have faith in God.
Besides, when it comes to good deeds, how can you ever do enough? How many are too many?


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 12:13am
"I believe in a God of justice who demands payment for sins."
 
So, who do you believe is paying for the sins of man? If God is a God of justice, wouldn't it be the man who committed the sin?


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 7:13pm

Here are the verses that have prompted suicide bombers, the suposedly receive immediate paradise. 

061.012
YUSUFALI: He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement.
PICKTHAL: He will forgive you your sins and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in Gardens of Eden. That is the supreme triumph.
SHAKIR: He will forgive you your faults and cause you to enter into gardens, beneath which rivers flow, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetuity; that is the mighty achievement;



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Here are the verses that have prompted suicide bombers, the suposedly receive immediate paradise. 

061.012
YUSUFALI: He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement.
PICKTHAL: He will forgive you your sins and bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in Gardens of Eden. That is the supreme triumph.
SHAKIR: He will forgive you your faults and cause you to enter into gardens, beneath which rivers flow, and goodly dwellings in gardens of perpetuity; that is the mighty achievement;

 
How would you possibly know such a thing?  Should we alert Homeland Security?
 
 
 
 


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 7:22pm
Yeah, point out a couple of Bible contradictions and out come the "suicide bomber" card.  Interesting.....

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 3:09pm
No, No, No Shasta'saunt-   you said -"Just because we don't believe in a magic get into heaven free card doesn't mean we don't believe in salvation."
 
I showed the verses that have been stated by many is a magic get into heaven free card.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 5:51pm
"strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons:"
 
Striving your utmost is not exactly magic..... 
 
All of those who strive in the cause of Allah, jihad the internal struggle of what is good and righteous will, God Willing, be admitted to paradise.  These verses are for everyone.
 
Committing suicide in Islam is a sin, so blowing yourself up would hardly qualify for martyrdom.  However, defending yourself, your family and community, and your country against those who would harm you, would.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 6:31am
Yes that is how I believe suicide and the guys flying the planes into the towers used it. 
 
I believe that suicide is the easy way out.  Debating, working for change, peaceful marches, tactics used by Martin Luther King is the true struggle. 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Yes that is how I believe suicide and the guys flying the planes into the towers used it. 
 
I believe that suicide is the easy way out.  Debating, working for change, peaceful marches, tactics used by Martin Luther King is the true struggle. 
beleiver,
I guess that comes down to the fact that each one read the verse same as it appears but takes it differently. A good example in your case (in my observence) is this one:
John 20:17 Jesus said according to the Bible, ....I am returning to my Father and your Father, "to my God and your God. "
the verse say Jesus has a God, same God that I and you have. But you interpret it differently? what's the differance between you and them, each interpreting to their own interest and goal?
Hasan
 


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62




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