I thought Muslims did not believe in intercessors
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Topic: I thought Muslims did not believe in intercessors
Posted By: believer
Subject: I thought Muslims did not believe in intercessors
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 5:32am
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/wasiti/taimiyah_7.htmlAsh-Shafaah%20%28The%20Prophets%20Intercession%29The%20first%20to%20knock%20at%20the%20gate%20of%20Paradise%20will%20be%20Muhammad%20%28peace%20be%20upon%20him%29;%20And%20the%20first%20Ummah%20to%20enter%20Paradise%20will%20be%20his%20Ummah.%20And%20he%20%28Muhammad%29%20%28peace%20be%20upon%20him%29%20has%20three%20intercessions%20to%20perform%20on%20the%20Day%20of%20Resurrection:%20His%20first%20intercession%20will%20be%20on%20behalf%20of%20the%20people%20still%20held%20for%20judgment,%20after%20all%20Prophets,%20Adam,%20Noah,%20Abraham,%20Moses,%20and%20Jesus,%20the%20son%20of%20Mary,%20have%20passed%20over%20intercession%20and%20it%20reaches%20him%20%28Muhammad%29.%20His%20second%20intercession%20will%20be%20on%20behalf%20of%20the%20people%20of%20Paradise%20in%20order%20that%20they%20may%20enter%20it.%20These%20two%20intercessions%20are%20unique%20to%20him.%20His%20third%20intercession%20is%20to%20be%20on%20behalf%20of%20those%20who%20warrant%20Fire.%20This%20intercession%20is%20for%20him%20%28Muhammad%29,%20for%20all%20prophets%20and%20saints%20and%20for%20others,%20so%20that%20they%20may%20intercede%20on%20behalf%20of%20those%20who%20deserve%20Fire,%20preventing%20them%20from%20entering%20it,%20and%20on%20behalf%20of%20those%20who%20have%20entered%20into%20the%20Fire,%20taking%20them%20from%20it.%20Allah,%20The%20Exalted,%20out%20of%20His%20Generosity%20and%20Mercy,%20sends%20some%20people%20out%20from%20the%20Fire%20without%20intercession.%20Space%20will%20be%20left%20unfilled%20in%20Paradise,%20so%20Allah%20will%20create%20more%20people%20for%20it,%20and%20bring%20them%20into%20it.%20The%20Hereafter%20includes%20judgment,%20reward,%20punishment,%20Paradise%20and%20Hell.%20These%20are%20mentioned%20in%20detail%20in%20the%20Revealed%20Books%20from%20heavens,%20in%20the%20tradition%20of%20the%20prophets,%20and%20in%20the%20inherited%20knowledge%20from%20Muhammad%20%28peace%20be%20upon%20him%29%20what%20is%20sufficient%20and%20satisfactory%20%28in%20this%20regard%29,%20and%20whoever%20wishes%20to%20seek%20it%20can%20find%20it. - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/wasiti/taimiyah_7.html
Ash-Shafa'ah (The Prophets Intercession)The first to knock at the gate of Paradise will be Muhammad (peace be upon him); And the first Ummah to enter Paradise will be his Ummah. And he (Muhammad) (peace be upon him) has three intercessions to perform on the Day of Resurrection: His first intercession will be on behalf of the people still held for judgment, after all Prophets, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, the son of Mary, have passed over intercession and it reaches him (Muhammad). His second intercession will be on behalf of the people of Paradise in order that they may enter it. These two intercessions are unique to him. His third intercession is to be on behalf of those who warrant Fire. This intercession is for him (Muhammad), for all prophets and saints and for others, so that they may intercede on behalf of those who deserve Fire, preventing them from entering it, and on behalf of those who have entered into the Fire, taking them from it. Allah, The Exalted, out of His Generosity and Mercy, sends some people out from the Fire without intercession. Space will be left unfilled in Paradise, so Allah will create more people for it, and bring them into it. The Hereafter includes judgment, reward, punishment, Paradise and Hell. These are mentioned in detail in the Revealed Books from heavens, in the tradition of the prophets, and in the inherited knowledge from Muhammad (peace be upon him) what is sufficient and satisfactory (in this regard), and whoever wishes to seek it can find it. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Replies:
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 10:55am
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Hi believer,
do you have any Quranic referance to back up this, please present it so we can proceed on this.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 6:50am
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My understanding is that it is from the writings of Ibn Taimiyah -
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/wasiti/taimiyah_3.html - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/wasiti/taimiyah_3.html
Is it interpretation of hadith? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 5:44pm
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believer,
it is an important matter, you have to bring in Quranic referance if you want to discuss it here. I personally don't post or click on those outside links.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Farooqui
Date Posted: 14 May 2008 at 7:35pm
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This topic has been started on a wrong supposition. The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will ask for the ability for intercession for certain followers:
I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Who will be the luckiest person who will gain your intercession on the Day of Resurrection?" The Prophet said, "O Abu Huraira! I have thought that none will ask me about this Hadith before you, as I know your longing for the (learning of) Hadiths. The luckiest person who will have my intercession on the Day of Resurrection will be the one who said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' sincerely from the bottom of his heart." (More constructive dialogue please, less of the hole-picking)
------------- The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of the self. (Bukhari) |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 7:23am
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58061&FID=10 - Farooqui - Me asking is it an interpretation of hadith by Ibn Taimiyah hole-picking? 020.109
YUSUFALI: On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. PICKTHAL: On that day no intercession availeth save (that of) him unto whom the Beneficent hath given leave and whose word He accepteth. SHAKIR: On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent Allah allows and whose word He is pleased with. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Farooqui
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 4:54am
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Believer, you began by supposing there was no interscession in Islam which both the Quran and the hadith provide description of the reverse. Your own quote makes this clear. In cases like this where�s the grey area? what�s left to ask? I intend no offence but on the face of it, it appeared non-constructive. On the other hand please take my apologies if you�ve really picked up some new knowledge from this item.
------------- The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of the self. (Bukhari) |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 May 2008 at 6:25pm
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58061&FID=10 - Farooqui -I have been repeatly told by Muslims that there are no intercessors in Islam. They question how Jesus can be an intercessor for the Christian.
I was believing Muslims on their word and just found this when reading on the UMC site for another thread.
honeto what is your understanding?
My next question - Who is receiving and who is interceeding? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 9:26am
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believer, my understanding is:
-intercession is different than ransom and I am sure you are aware of each terms and its meaning. Ransom, in simple would be paying a cost (in any way) for someone to be free. While to interceed on someone's behalf is if one asks somone for a favor or request on behalf of someone else.
-Now, my understanding is that in Quran I have not come accross any verse that suggests that the prophet will interceed on the part of the believers, who failed in their duty to achieve salvation.
Now remember, that through Islam we know that God forgives because He is Merciful, the person has to ask and request it to God, if that's the desire.
One sin however, God has mentioned in the Quran and in the previous scriptures (Bible) that does not have forgiveness is blasphemy against God. That is to deny God, or take another object for worship, or along with God have other objects for worship.
Now lets proceded. Prophets are God's chosen people, above others. Whether it was Moses, David, Jesus or Mohammed (pbut), they all have higher ranks in comparison to you and me. Only God knows what exactly that ranks will be but for my understanding is that they will be closer to God, for their character, love, devotion, obedience, trust, belief and strength of faith, and so on. And thus God may grant them something that they may request, for example for forgiveness of some of their followers that did not make it.
But I must say that, those who do not listen to the messangers and thus did not listen to what God said through the messangers, simply will not be helped through 'intercession' because if they deny to practice what the messanger have asked them to, why the messsangers would ask for their forgiveness.
It is said by God, that those who ignore Me and my message, I will ignore them that day, meaning the Judgement Day.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 9:55am
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Good answer Honeto, there is intercession regarding those who has higher ranks beside Allah swt but of course it also depends on how one used to live and believe in this world. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 10:53am
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Absolutely, myahya you are right.
I happen to find one verse in the Quran that supports my view:
19:87 None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission or promise from God The Most Gracious.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 6:12pm
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Believer:
If by intercessor you mean someone to whom Muslims pray and ask that they speak to God or go before God on their behalf, or someone or something that will take the brunt of our punishment on the Day of Judgement for us, then no, there are no intercessors in Islam.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 11:40am
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I understand to intercede- to plead/speak on someone's behalf.
honeto that makes sense- If you didn't believe in GOD then you wouldn't be asking for anyone to speak on your behave anyway!!
Shasta I think in your statment you are combining intercession and ransom. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 6:48am
By intercessors I mean priests, saints, preachers, dead relatives, spiritualists, mediums, etc...
I add Jesus to the list because his whole act of willful suicide was supposedly to intercede on behalf of mankind and accept their sins. You may say his blood was a ransom paid for our sins, but I'm not sure to whom the ransom was paid and who demaned such a ransom. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
believer wrote:Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 4:08pm
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Oh, were you Catholic? It is sad that at the Catholic grade schools they teach church doctrine and not Bible stories.
No, I do not think of any but Jesus as intercessor- praying to GOD in Jesus' name.
The ransom was paid to GOD. GOD is just and righteous which means when someone sins it causes a debt that must be paid. We all sin.
Mark 1045For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 8:33pm
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"The ransom was paid to GOD. GOD is just and righteous which means when someone sins it causes a debt that must be paid. We all sin."
I thought Jesus is God. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 5:59pm
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Yes that is what I believe. Jesus is 100% GOD and 100% human. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 6:21pm
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that makes Jesus a 200% total
Does that makes sense?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 6:33pm
Jesus is God
God demands a blood sacrifice
Jesus is the blood sacrifice
do you follow the logic here.... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 11:22am
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GOD loves us so much that He wants us with Him.
GOD is omnipresent.
This is actually stated in the Quran- What/who other then GOD's Son would be a momentous sacrifice by GOD to equal the son of Abraham?
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 12:53pm
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I get it!
it don't make sense.
 Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 12:08am
You said that Jesus is God. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 5:02pm
beleiver,
this matter was discussed and cleared before and the quote you mentioned is about Ishmael and his life resomed with a Ram that God provided. This has nothing to do with what you suggested, connected to Jesus. We don't need to invent meaning into somthing when that matter has been openly and clearly stated.
The rest that you wrote:
"This is actually stated in the Quran- What/who other then GOD's Son would be a momentous sacrifice by GOD to equal the son of Abraham?"
this quote or idea is a fabrication of your own and does not exists in the Quran.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 6:49am
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A ram is not a momentous sacrifice!!
Saying that equates a ram with a human!!
------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 3:05pm
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Ram was provided to replace the son Abraham was about to offer for sacrifice. The Quran affirms that and so does what's left of the O/T.
Word momentous, tremendous, feast sacrifice are traslated words each according to that individual's understanding and can be debated.
I have mentioned this before that as a custom of the mountain shepherds, when they offer in sacrifice, whether for their guests or a celebration, they don't cut the bad animal, instead the best of the herd as they honor their guests. Don't it occur to you that if a shepherd is so generous to offer the most healthy and perfect from defects animal, are you stingy to think that the Lord of the Universe would not provide a great feast sacrifice animal, a greater ram than a sheperd can. And that's what the Arabic word in this verse is used " Azeem" or great in English.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 11:52pm
It is to the ram..... ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 June 2008 at 7:24am
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LOL! yes Shasta!!
OK , the translation is wrong in that the word is too strong and should not mean -momentous, vital, critical, crucial, serious. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 June 2008 at 2:08pm
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Believer,
translation is not wrong you are,
when you under estimate God accepting His servent's offering, and providing a great replacement, a ram as God has never taught human blood sacrifices. And this event proves that a ram, an animal, but better than a shepherd can offer was provided as a replacement.
Remember, that human blood sacrifice was a practice of only some pagans.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 10:03am
Believer . . . what Muslims mean when they say that they dont believe in itercessors is that unlike other religions, they have a direct relationship with God, that is not dependent on the intercession, or mediation of any other thing, person or bieng.
Which means that Muslims can pray to Him directly, ask Him directly fro forgiveness and are not dependent on a third party (like a clergy-man) for knowing God's "Will" . . .or what God "wants" them to do. Which I find is refreshing compared to other religions.
Another interpretation of intercession is that God alone decides the fate of His people . . .and no Holy-Man, Guru or whatever has the Power to "intercede" in behalf and ensure Heaven or Salvation for that person. Thus eliminating the need to"please" any worldly or beyong party.
What the above ahadith (assuming they r authentic. Have yet to look them up) portay is the fact that Prophet Muhammad was always deeply concerned about the fate of his people. . . and it is foretold that he will try to intercede, and plead with God to forgive some of his followers. Again . . . it no where states that Prophet Muhammad has any power to forgive his followers or ensure them a path to heaven. Only thier actions and relationship with God will do that.
If Allah wills, He may accept Prophet Muhammad's plea or He may not. Walla hu alam, Only Allah knows. And to any fellow muslims who may be horrified at me saying that . . . I'd like to quote an incident from Prophet Muhammad's life, when his beloved non-muslim Uncle, Abu-Talib was on his death-bed . . .
al-Bukhari :
Narrated Al Musaiyab : When Abu Talibs death approached, the Prophet ( saw ) went to him while Abu Jahl and Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya were present with him. The Prophet ( saw ) said : ' O Uncle, say : None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, so that I may argue for your case with it before Allah. ' On that Abu Jahl and Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said : ' O Abu Talib ! Do you want to renounce Abdul Muttalib's religion ? ' Then the Prophet ( saw ) said, ' I will keep on asking ( Allah for ) forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden to do so. ' And he continued to pray for his forgiveness, after which a verse in the Qur'an was revealed, that clearly implies, that despite even the plea/intercession of Allah's beloved Prophet, the decision is Allah's alone :
It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that
they should pray for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the companions of the fire. [ 9 : 113 ] So to conclude . . .Muslims strive to please Allah alone, and any belief in intercessors will not do them good. . . because thier fate lies in Allah's hands alone. If they want to be salvaged, they should depend on thier deeds on earth, rather then not-doing anything, thinking an intercessor will save them.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 3:16pm
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May Allah reward you for your effort to give an honest answer that is based on the Quran and the Hadith.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |