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What BIBLE SAYS ABOUT PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAW

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Topic: What BIBLE SAYS ABOUT PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAW

Posted By: Tariq
Subject: What BIBLE SAYS ABOUT PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAW
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 5:57am

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT MUHAMMAD (PEACE BE UPON HIM) THE PROPHET OF ISLAM

A lecture by Ahmed Deedat

file:///D:\web\WHAT%20THE%20BIBLE%20SAYS%20ABOUT%20MUHAMMAD_files\blesepa.gif -

- SAY:^{- BORE WITNESS OF ONE LIKE HIM..."} -

- 1. - This refers to Moses. See Yusuf Ali's commentaries Nos. 4783/4 to this verse. - - file:///D:\web\WHAT%20THE%20BIBLE%20SAYS%20ABOUT%20MUHAMMAD_files\blesepa.gif -

- Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen, The subject of this evening's talk* - "What the BIBLE says about MUHAMMAD (Peace be upon him)" - will no doubt come as a surprise to many of you because the speaker is a Muslim. How does it come about that a Muslim happens to be expounding prophecies from the Jewish and Christian Scriptures?
As a young man, about 30 years ago, I attended a series of religious lectures by a Christian theologian, a certain Rev. Hiten, at the "Theatre Royal", - - -

- Pope or Kissinger?

- This Reverend gentleman was expounding Biblical prophecies. He went on to prove that the Christian Bible foretold the rise of Soviet Russia, and the Last Days. At one stage he went to the extent of proving that his Holy Book did not leave even the Pope out of its predictions. He expatiated vigorously in order to convince his audience that the "Beast 666" mentioned in the Book of Revelation the last book of the New Testament was the POPE, who was the Vicar of Christ on earth. It is not befitting for us Muslims to enter into this controversy between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants. By the way, the latest Christian exposition of the "Beast 666" of the Christian Bible is Dr. Henry Kissinger^{- . Christian scholars are ingenious and indefatigable in their efforts to prove their case.
Rev. Hiten's lectures led me to ask that if the Bible foretold so many things - not even excluding the "Pope" and " - Israel" - then surely it must have something to say about the greatest benefactor of mankind ^{- , the Holy Prophet Muhammed (may the peace of Allah be upon him).}}

- As a youngster I set out to search for an answer. I met priest after priest, attended lectures, and read everything that I could lay my hands relating to the fields of Bible prophecies. Tonight I am going to narrate to you one of these interviews with a dominee^{- of the Dutch Reformed Church.}

- 1. - - The writer has just delivered another talk in the City Hall, - Durban on the 10th December 1975 on the subject "Muhammad the Greatest" http://www.muhammad.net/mg/index.htm - .

3. "Dominee" is the Afrikaans equivalent of priest, parson and predikant.

Lucky Thirteen

I was invited to the Transvaal¹ to deliver a talk on the occasion of Birthday celebration of the Holy Prophet Muhammed. Knowing that in that province of the Republic, the Afrikaans language is widely spoken, even by my own people, I felt that I ought to acquire a smattering of this language so a s to feel a little "at home" with the people. I opened the telephone directory and began phoning the Afrikaans-speaking Churches. I indicated my purpose to the priests that I was interested in having a dialogue with them, but they all refused my request with "Plausible" excuses. No.13 was my lucky number. The thirteenth call brought me pleasure and relief. A dominee Van Heerden agreed to meet me at his home on the Saturday afternoon that I was to leave for Transvaal.

He received me on his verandah with a friendly welcome. He said if I did not mind, he would like his father-in-law from the Free State (a 70 year old man) to join us in the discussion. I did not mind. The three of us settled down in the dominee's library.

1. One of the Provinces of the Republic of South Africa.

Why Nothing?

I posed the question: "What does the Bible say about Muhammed?" Without hesitation he answered, "Nothing!" I asked: "Why nothing? According to your interpretation the Bible have so many things to say about the rise of Soviet Russia and about the Last Days and even about the Pope of the Roman Catholics?" He said, "Yes, but there was nothing about Muhammed!" I asked again, "Why nothing? Surely this man Muhammed who had been responsible for the bringing into being a worldwide community of millions of Believers who, on his authority, believe in:

(1) The miraculous birth of Jesus,
(2) that Jesus is the Messiah,¹
(3) that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.

Surely this book (the Bible) must have something to say about this great Leader of men who spoke so well of Jesus and his mother Mary?" (Peace be upon them both).

The old man from the Free State replied. "My son, I have been reading the Bible for the past 50 years, and if there was any mention of him, I would have known it."

1. The word "Messiah" comes from the Arabic and Hebrew word masaha, which means to rub, to massage, to anoint. The religious significance is "the one who is anointed" - priests and kings were anointed in consecration to their offices. Messiah translated Christ does not mean God. Even the heathen Cyrus is called "Christ" in the Bible, (Isaiah 45:1)

Not one by name!

I enquired: "According to you, are there not hundreds of prophecies regarding the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament." The dominee interjected: "Not hundreds, but thousands!" I said, "I am not going to dispute the 'thousand and one' prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the coming of Jesus Christ, because the whole Muslim-world has already accepted him without the testimony of any Biblical prophecy. We Muslims have accepted the de facto Jesus on the authority of Muhummed alone, and there are in the world today no less than 900,000,000¹ followers of Muhummed who love, respect and revere this great Messenger of God -Jesus Christ- without having the Christians to convince them by means of their Biblical dialectics. Out of the 'thousands' of prophecies referred to, can you please give me just one single prophecy where Jesus is mentioned by name? The term 'Messiah', translated as 'Christ', is not a name but a title. Is there a single Prophecy where it says that the name of the Messiah will be JESUS, and that his mother's name will be MARY, that his supposed father will be JOSEPH THE CARPENTER; that he will be born in the reign of HEROD THE KING, etc. etc.? No! There are no such details! Then how can you conclude that those 'thousand' Prophecies refer to Jesus (Peace be upon him)?"

1. This was first written in 1976.

What is Prophecy?

The dominee replied: "You see, prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future. When that thing actually comes to pass, we see vividly in these prophecies the fulfillment of what had been predicted in the past." I said: "What you actually do is that you deduce, you reason, you put two and two together." He said: "Yes." I said: "If this is what you have to do with a 'thousand' prophecies to justify your claim with regards to the genuineness of Jesus, why should we not adopt the very same system for Muhummed?"¹ The dominee agreed that it was a fair proposition, a reasonable way of dealing with the problem.

I asked him to open up Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verse 18, which he did. I read from memory the verse in Afrikaans, because this was my purpose in having a little practice with the language of the ruling race in South Africa.²

'N PROFEET SAL EK VIR HULLE VERWEK UIT DIE MIDDE VAN HULLE BROERS, SOOS JY IS, EN EK SAL MY WOORDE IN SY MOND LE, EN HY SY SAL AAN HULLE SE ALLE WAT EK HOM BEVEEL. Deut.18: 18.

The English translation reads as follows:-

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

(HOLY BIBLE) Deuteronomy 18:18.

1. Muhummed is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon 5:16. The Hebrew word used there is Muhammuddim. The end letters IM is plural of respect majesty and grandeur. Minus "im" the name would be Muhamud translated as "altogether lovely" in the Authorised Version of the Bible or 'The Praised One' 'the one worthy of Praise' i.e. MUHUMMED! (P.B.U.H)

2. If this booklet is translated into any language, please change the Afrikaans words into the local dialect; and do not try a free hand translation of the Biblical quotation. Obtain a Bible in the language in which translation is being made and transcribe exactly as the words occur in that Bible.

Prophet Like Moses

Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologised for my uncertain pronunciation, The dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I enquired: "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "JESUS!" I asked: "Why Jesus?... his name is not mentioned here." The dominee replied: "Since prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'SOOS JY IS' (like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses, and Jesus is like Moses. I questioned: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "SOOS JY IS". "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblical personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL "Jews" as well as "Prophets". Why should we not apply this prophecy to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of another?" The dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."

Three Unlikes

So saying, I reasoned with him:

"In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to You - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses!

"SECONDLY, according to You - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Moses did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!"

"THIRDLY, according to You - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s." I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!"

"But dominee," I continued: "these are not hard facts, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, shall we?" The dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion.

CHAPTER TWO

Eight Irrefutable Arguments

Father and Mother

(1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "DAAROM IS JESUS NIE SOOS MOSES NIE, MAAR MUHUMMED IS SOOS MOSES!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses!" (By now the reader will realise that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration).

Miraculous Birth

(2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St. Matthew 1:18 ".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST." And St. Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announced to her, Mary reasoned: "...HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE..." (Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur��n confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:

" O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? "
The angel says in reply: "EVEN SO: ALLAH CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH:
WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN, HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE,"
AND IT IS " ¹ (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47).

It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus. (When I compared the Qur��n and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest City, and when I enquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the QUR'ANIC version or the BIBLICAL version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Qur��nic.") In short, I said to the dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhummed?" He replied proudly: "Yes!" I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses."

1. Please open the Holy Qur��n 3:42 and 19:16 where the birth of Jesus is spoken about; read it with the commentary, note the high position which Jesus and his mother occupy in Islam.

Marriage Ties

(3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

Jesus Rejected by his People

(4) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life impossible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, after two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejected him. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES."

"Other-Wordly" Kingdom

(5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day, and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people.

There are instances in the Bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace p.b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charge: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE" (John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possession of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true?" The dominee answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

No New Laws

(6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.

"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an impostor with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they always levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed. Is this true?" I asked the dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

How they Departed

(7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.¹ Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

Heavenly Abode

(8) "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Is this true?" The dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

1. For a full exposition of this topic, see "CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION?".

CHAPTER THREE

Further Proofs

Ishmael The First Born

Since the dominee was helplessly agreeing with every point, I said, "Dominee, so far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy- that is proving the phrase 'LIKE UNTO THEE' - 'Like You' - 'Like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows : "I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the Arabs. You see, the Holy Bible speaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham¹ called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.

1. According to the Bible, Abraham's name was Abram before it was changed by God to Abraham.

Arabs and Jews

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

Words in the Mouth

"The prophecy proceeds further:'.......AND I WILL PUT MY WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH.......' What does it mean when it is said 'I will put my words in your mouth'? You see, when I asked you (the dominee) to open Deuteronomy chapter 18, verse 18, at the beginning, and if I had asked you to read, and if you had read: would I be putting my words into your mouth?" The dominee answered: "No." "But," I continued: "If I were to teach you a language like Arabic about which you have no knowledge, and if I asked you to read or repeat after me what I utter i.e.

(I read them in Arabic )

Would I not be putting these unheard words of a foreign tongue which you utter, into your mouth?" The dominee agreed that it was indeed so. In an identical manner, I said, the words of the Holy Qur��n, the Revelation vouchsafed by the Almighty God to Muhummed, were revealed.

History tells us that Muhummed was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. It was the 27th night of the Muslim month of Ramadaan. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'IQRA' which means READ! or PROCLAIM! or RECITE! Muhummed is terrified and in his bewilderment replies " MA ANA BEQARA which means I AM NOT LEARNED! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues.

Now Muhummed, grasps, that what was required of him was to repeat! to rehearse! And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

These are the first five verses, which were revealed to Muhummed, which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur��n.

Replies:

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 11 August 2008 at 1:24pm

With reference to Songs of Solomon 5:16 here is a better understanding of who is being spoken of:-

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Right Shepherd, for he himself declares: "I am the right shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me." (John 10:14) He is good and true. Yes, he is a faithful Shepherd. This Shepherd is the beauty of Israel, the most glorious one in all Jehovah�s organization. He is the delightful one, "altogether desirable," "the most conspicuous of ten thousand." (Songs of Solomon 5:16, 10) Who cannot but love and adore him? "And thou, O tower of the flock, the hill of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, yea, the former dominion shall come, the kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem."-Mic. 4:8, AS

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 11 August 2008 at 11:20pm

robin, there was a lot in that good post about Deut 18:18. The name of the prophet "Muhammadaim" is also found in the bible, songs of Soloman. The number ten thousand (10,000) is also there for our prophet.The like of Moses is explained.

There are so many points of similarity between Moses and Muhammad. So many points of dis-similarity between Moses and Jesus. You had no reply to any of those points. But you just picked on some indication to a shepherd. Remember that is also metaphorical, symbolic, not real. Did Jesus ever herd the real sheep in his life or he just worked in his fathers carpentary workshop?

Jesus never brought any law. But Moses brought a law for the Jews. So did MUhammad. That is the biggest similarity. Will you please come by some more points. There was a lot in that long lecture by Ahmed Deedat.

-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 12 August 2008 at 12:46am

minuteman wrote:

The greatest prophet Jesus said:-

John 10:11-15

I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. ¹² The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees�and the wolf snatches them and scatters them� ¹³ because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. ¹⁴ I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, ¹⁵ just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.

YOU MUST HAVE MISSED THESE:-

Deuteronomy 18:15-19

"A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you�to him YOU people should listen� ¹⁶ in response to all that you asked of Jehovah your God in Ho�reb on the day of the congregation, saying, �Do not let me hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire do not let me see anymore, that I may not die.� ¹⁷ At that Jehovah said to me, �They have done well in speaking what they did. ¹⁸ A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. ¹⁹ And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name [Jehovah], I shall myself require an account from him."-

In the above text from Deut. Ch. 18 the phrases "your own midst, from your brothers," is refering to the Israelite nation from where the promised prophet like Moses was to come as they where Moses brothers and would be prophet for "Jehovah" God.

The decendants of Ishmael, the "Ishmaelites", are numbered among the enemies of God (Allah) because as a nation the turned against God (Allah) and his people the Israelites:-

Psalm 83:1-9

O God, let there be no silence on your part; Do not keep speechless, and do not stay quiet, O Divine One.

² For, look! your very enemies are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head.

³ Against your people they cunningly carry on their confidential talk; And they conspire against your concealed ones.

⁴ They have said: "Come and let us efface them from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more."

⁵ For with the heart they have unitedly exchanged counsel; Against you they proceeded to conclude even a covenant,

⁶ The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites, ⁷ Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia together with the inhabitants of Tyre.

⁸ Also, Assyria itself has become joined with them; They have become an arm to the sons of Lot.

⁹ Do to them as to Midian, as to Sisera, As to Jabin at the torrent valley of Kishon*. ,,,,

¹³ O my God, make them like a thistle whirl, Like stubble before a wind.

¹⁴ Like a fire that burns up the forest And like a flame that scorches the mountains,

¹⁵ In just that way may you pursue them with your tempest And may you disturb them with your own storm wind. ....

¹⁷ O may they be ashamed and be disturbed for all times, And may they become abashed and perish; ...." (See 'The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible' The oldest known Bible translated for the first time into English.)

*Which is to destroy them!

So why would Allah choose a man to be his prophet from a nation that the considered his enemy and was only fit for destruction!?

Luke 7:16 "Now fear seized them all, and they began to glorify God, saying: �A great prophet"

Luke 24:19 "And he said to them: �What things?� They said to him: �The things concerning Jesus the Naz�a�rene', who became a prophet powerful in work and word before God and all the people;"

John 1:45 "Philip found Na�than'a�el and said to him: �We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Naz'a�reth.�"

John 6:14 "Hence when the men saw the signs he performed, they began to say: �This is for a certainty the prophet that was to come into the world.�"

Acts 3:22-26 "In fact, Moses said, �Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.� And all the prophets, in fact, from Samuel on and those in succession, just as many as have spoken, have also plainly declared these days. YOU are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God covenanted with YOUR forefathers, saying to Abraham, �And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.� To YOU first God, after raising up his Servant, sent him forth to bless YOU by turning each one away from YOUR wicked deeds.�"

Acts 7:37-38 "�This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, �God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.� This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si'nai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU."

Alike Early in Their Careers

Both Moses and Jesus escaped the slaughter of very young male children. The infant Moses was concealed among the reeds on the banks of the Nile River and thus escaped the slaughter of Israelite male babies as ordered by Pharaoh of Egypt. As a young child, Jesus also escaped the slaughter of males up to two years old in Bethlehem and its districts. This massacre was ordered by King Herod the Great, who, like Pharaoh, was an enemy of God and His people.�Exodus 1:22�2:10; Matthew 2:13-18.

A mild-tempered, or meek, spirit was displayed by both Moses and Jesus. Though he was reared as a son in the household of a powerful king of Egypt, Moses came to be �by far the meekest of all the men who were upon the surface of the ground.� (Numbers 12:3) Comparably, Jesus had served as the mighty prince Michael in heaven but humbly came to the earth. (Daniel 10:13; Philippians 2:5-8) Moreover, Jesus had compassion for people and could say: �Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for your souls.��Matthew 11:29; 14:14.

For the sake of Jehovah�s service, both Moses and Jesus left behind prominent positions and great riches. To serve Jehovah and His people, Moses gave up wealth and a prestigious place in Egypt. (Hebrews 11:24-26) Similarly, Jesus left behind a greatly favored position and riches in heaven so as to serve God and His people on the earth.�2 Corinthians 8:9.

Moses and Jesus both became God�s anointed ones. The prophet Moses served as Jehovah�s anointed one to the nation of Israel. As the apostle Paul said, Moses �esteemed the reproach of [being] the Christ [anointed one] as riches greater than the treasures of Egypt.� (Hebrews 11:26; Exodus 3:1�4:17) When did Jesus become the Christ, or anointed One? This occurred when he was anointed with God�s holy spirit, or active force, upon being baptized. To the Samaritan woman at Jacob�s fountain at Sychar and before Israel�s high priest when on trial, Jesus testified that he was the Messiah, or Christ.�Mark 14:61, 62; John 4:25, 26.

Both Moses and Jesus fasted for 40 days. Early in his career as God�s spokesman, Moses fasted for 40 days while in the mountain of Sinai. (Exodus 34:28) Jesus fasted for 40 days in the wilderness and then resisted satanic temptation early in his career as the promised Messiah.�Matthew 4:1-11.

Both Men Glorified Jehovah

Jehovah used both Moses and Jesus to magnify His holy name. God told Moses to go to the Israelites in the name of �Jehovah the God of their forefathers.� (Exodus 3:13-16) Moses represented God before Pharaoh, who was kept in existence so that Jehovah�s power could be shown and His name declared in all the earth. (Exodus 9:16) Jesus likewise came in Jehovah�s name. For instance, Christ said: �I have come in the name of my Father, but you do not receive me.� (John 5:43) Jesus glorified his Father, made Jehovah�s name manifest to the men God gave him, and made it well-known on the earth.�John 17:4, 6, 26.

By divine power, Moses and Jesus both performed miracles that glorified God. Moses performed miracles to prove that he was commissioned by Jehovah God. (Exodus 4:1-31) Throughout his career, Moses, who was used by God to part the Red Sea, continued to perform miracles that glorified Jehovah. (Exodus 5:1�12:36; 14:21-31; 16:11-18; 17:5-7; Psalm 78:12-54) Similarly, Jesus brought glory to God by performing many miracles. So much was that the case that Jesus could say: �Believe me that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me; otherwise, believe on account of the works themselves.� (John 14:11) Among his miracles was that of causing a violent windstorm to abate, so that the Sea of Galilee became calm.�Mark 4:35-41; Luke 7:18-23.

Other Important Similarities

Moses and Jesus were both associated with a miraculous provision of food. Moses was Jehovah�s prophet when food was miraculously provided for the Israelites. (Exodus 16:11-36) Similarly, on two occasions of Bible record, Jesus miraculously fed multitudes with material food.�Matthew 14:14-21; 15:32-38.

Manna from heaven was linked with the service of both Moses and Jesus. Moses was leading the Israelites when they were provided with manna from heaven, as it were. (Exodus 16:11-27; Numbers 11:4-9; Psalm 78:25) In a comparable but highly important way, Jesus provided his own flesh as manna from heaven for the life of obedient mankind.�John 6:48-51.

Both Moses and Jesus led people out of bondage into freedom. Moses was used by God to lead the Israelites out of bondage to the Egyptians and into freedom as His people. (Exodus 12:37-42) Similarly, Jesus Christ has been leading his followers into freedom. Christ will yet lead obedient mankind into freedom from bondage to the organization of Satan the Devil, as well as from sin and death.�1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Colossians 1:13; 1 John 5:19.

Moses and Jesus both mediated covenants. Moses was the mediator of the Law covenant, between Jehovah God and the Israelites. (Exodus 19:3-9) Jesus is the Mediator of the new covenant, between God and spiritual Israel.�Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13.

Judging was committed to both Moses and Jesus Christ. Moses served as judge and lawgiver to fleshly Israel. (Exodus 18:13; Malachi 4:4) Jesus serves as Judge and has given the spiritual �Israel of God� its laws and commandments. (Galatians 6:16; John 15:10) Christ himself said: �The Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.��John 5:22, 23.

Both Moses and Jesus were entrusted with headship over God�s house. Moses was faithful as the head over the house of God in ancient Israel. (Numbers 12:7) Comparably, Jesus was made the Head of Jehovah�s spiritual house of sons and has proved faithful over it. Indeed, Jesus �was faithful to the One that made him such, as Moses was also in all the house of that One. For the latter is counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who constructs it has more honor than the house. . . . Moses as an attendant was faithful in all the house of that One as a testimony of the things that were to be spoken afterwards, but Christ was faithful as a Son over the house of that One. We are the house of that One, if we make fast our hold on our freeness of speech and our boasting over the hope firm to the end.��Hebrews 3:2-6.

Even as to death, Moses and Jesus were alike. How so? Well, Jehovah removed Moses� body, thus preventing men from either profaning it or idolizing it. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6; Jude 9) Similarly, God disposed of Jesus� body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith.�Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 August 2008 at 10:39am

robin, I may reply to just two paras of your post:

The greatest prophet Jesus said:-

John 10:11-15

According to the above quote, jesus was a false prophet because he left his sheep in distress and they were suffering , hiding in caves, persecuted for three hundred (300) years. Do you agree? Muhammad never did that.

YOU MUST HAVE MISSED THESE:-

Deuteronomy 18:15-19

I did not miss anything. But I have seen that the words above are different to what we used to read. There is too much of Yehova in your text. Also the words "Brethren" has been conveniently replaced by the words "Brothers". So your presentation is malafide, not reliable.

Please bring some older version of the bible and discuss things. Moses a.s. was telling to not any one tribe of the Jews but to all Jews (all Jews) that God will raise them up a prophet, the like of Moses, from their brethren. The words "their brethren" is meaningful. It can mean nothing else than the children of Ishmael a.s. They were the brethren of the Israelis. The Israelis cannot be the brethren of themselves.

And the similarity of Jesu with Moses has been disproved already. So Jesus is not that prophet. That is definite.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 13 August 2008 at 2:00pm

DEAR BROTHERS,

I ASK ALLAH TO GUIDE US ALL THE RIGHT PATH.

THE QUESTION WHICH WAS RAISED MOSTLY IN THIS INCOMING VERSE WAS ABOUT JESUS PEACE BE UPON HIM IS FROM SONS OF ISRAEL OR ISMAIILIES.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

(HOLY BIBLE) Deuteronomy 18:18.

THE CRITICAL POINT WAS THAT JESUS IS NOT FROM THE BROTHERHOOD OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON .

LET US DISCUSS WHO IS ISRAEL AND WHERE THESE SONS OF ISRAEL CAME FROM

ISRAEL IS THE NAME PROPHET JACOB PEACE BE UPON HIM THE WORD ISRAEL IN ARABIC اسرائيل MEANS ONE WHO IS BORN AT NIGHT. AND BANI ISRAEL بني اسرائيل SONS OF JACOB BOTH ARE MENTIONED IN QURAN IN VARIOUS PLACES AND BOTH ARE ARABIC WORDS.

NOW REGARDING PROPHET ISRAEL OR JACOB PEACE BE UPON HIM SO HE WAS THE GRAND SON OF PROPHET IBRAHIM OR ABRAHAM PEACE BE UPON HIM .

AND THE FATHER OF PROPHET JACOB PEACE BE UPON HIM WAS PROPHET ISHAQ OR ISAAC PEACE BE UPON HIM.

NOW PROPHET IBRAHIM HAD TWO SONS FROM TWO DIFFERENT WIVES ONE WAS ISMAEEL PEACE BE UPON WHO WAS PROPHET AND HIS MOTHER WAS HAJARA (HAGAR) AND PROPHET ISHAQ (ISAAC) WHOSE MOTHER WAS SARA(SARAH0 MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF THEM.

NOW IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT BOTH WERE BROTHERS AND FROM SAME BLOOD LINE AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON WAS FROM THE BLOOD LINE OF PROPHET ISMAEEL PBUH AND EVENTUALLY THE SON OF ABRAHAM PBUH AND JESUS WAS FROM THE BLOOD LINE OF ISHAQ PBUH WHOSE SON WAS JACOB(ISRAEL)PBUH SO EVENTUALLY HES THE SON OF ABRAHAM AS WELL. AND THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THEY WERE ALL THE SONS OF PROPHET IBRAHIM.

NOW WHAT THE VERSE SAYS,

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

(HOLY BIBLE) Deuteronomy 18:18.

IT AUTOMATICALLY ANSWERS THIS QUESTION PROPHET MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON HIM IS FROM THE SAME BLOOD LINE AND BROTHER HOOD OF PROPHETS.

FOR THAT I WILL QUOTE HADITH OF NARATED BY ABU HURAIRA MAY ALLAH BE PLEASED FROM HIM HE NARATES PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAID: I AM THE NEAREST OF THE PEOPLE WITH JESUS SON OF MARY PEACE BE UPON HIM IN THIS LIFE AND THE AFTER LIFE AND THE PROPHETS ARE BROTHERS............... ( AL SAHIH AL BUKHARI VOLUME 1 CHAPTER 49 . HADITH NUMBER 3259)

I HOPE I HAVE ANSWERED THE QUESTION AND MAY ALLAH MOST GRACIOUS GUIDE US ALL

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 1:05am

Tariq wrote:

THE CRITICAL POINT WAS THAT JESUS IS NOT FROM THE BROTHERHOOD OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON .

The above is very true which shows the Mohammed cannot be the promised one of Moses, as the prophet Jacob said that the promised one would be from the Israelite tribe of Judea, see below:-

Genesis 49:1-2

Later on Jacob called his sons and said: �Gather yourselves together that I may tell YOU what will happen to YOU in the final part of the days. ² Assemble yourselves and listen, YOU sons of Jacob, yes, listen to Israel YOUR father. ...

Genesis 49:8-10

�As for you, Judah, your brothers will laud you. Your hand will be on the back of the neck of your enemies. The sons of your father will prostrate themselves to you. ⁹ A lion cub Judah is. From the prey, my son, you will certainly go up. He bowed down, he stretched himself out like a lion and, like a lion, who dares rouse him? ¹⁰ The scepter [sign of rulership] will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander�s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh [title for Jesus*] comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.

Shi�loh means He Whose It Is; He to Whom It Belongs

In pronouncing a blessing upon Judah, the dying prophet and patriarch Jacob said: "The scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commander�s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong." (Gen 49:10) Beginning with the rule of the Judean David, power to command (the commander�s staff) and regal sovereignty (the scepter) were the possessions of the tribe of Judah. This was to continue until the coming of Shiloh, indicating that the royal line of Judah would terminate in Shiloh as the permanent heir. Similarly, before the overthrow of the kingdom of Judah, Jehovah indicated to the last Judean king, Zedekiah, that rulership would be given to one having the legal right. (Ezke 21:26, 27) This would evidently be Shiloh, as the name "Shiloh" is understood to signify "He Whose It Is; He to Whom It Belongs." Therefore, Shiloh must be Jesus Christ, "the Lion that is of the tribe of Judah."�Rev 5:5; compare Isa 11:10; Ro 15:12.

Jesus� family tree show he was from the tribe of Judea on his mothers side:-

Matthew 1:2

Abraham became father to Isaac; Isaac became father to Jacob; Jacob became father to Judah and his brothers; ...

Matthew 1:16

Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.

Jesus is from the right tribe to be the promised one of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 1:18am

minuteman wrote:

robin, I may reply to just two paras of your post:

The greatest prophet Jesus said:-

John 10:11-15

YOU MUST HAVE MISSED THESE:-

Deuteronomy 18:15-19

And the similarity of Jesu with Moses has been disproved already. So Jesus is not that prophet. That is definite.

'The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible' "The oldest known Bible translated for the fist time into English" reads at Deut. 18:18 for "their brothers" or "their brethern" "the countrymen" that is the Israelites, as these words are all various wasy to say the same thing!

http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna.html - http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=brethren&ia=luna - Cite This Source - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brethren#sharethis - Share This

broth�er

[bruhth-er or, for 9, bruhth-ur] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural brothers, (Archaic) brethren; interjection

�noun

1.	a male offspring having both parents in common with another offspring; a male sibling.

2.	Also called http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=half%20brother - half brother. a male offspring having only one parent in common with another offspring.

3.	a stepbrother.

4.	a male numbered among the same kinship group, nationality, race, profession, etc., as another; an associate; a fellow member, fellow countryman, fellow man, etc.: a fraternity brother.

Ecclesiastical.

a.	(often initial capital letter) a male numbered among the lay members of a religious organization that has a priesthood.

b.	a man who devotes himself to the duties of a religious order without taking holy orders, or while preparing for holy orders.

6.	brothers, all members of a particular race, or of the human race in general: All men are brothers.

7.	Slang. fellow; buddy: Brother, can you spare a dime?

8.	Informal. a black man; soul brother.

�interjection

9.	Slang. (used to express disappointment, disgust, or surprise).

[Origin: bef. 1000; ME; OE brōthor; c. D broeder, G Bruder, ON brōthir, Goth brothar, Skt bhrātṛ, Gk phrt�r, L frāter, OIr br�thair, OCS bratrŭ

]

�Related forms

broth�er�less, adjective

broth�er�like, adjective

�Synonyms 1. Brothers, brethren are plurals of brother. Brothers are kinsmen, sons of the same parents: My mother lives with my brothers. Brethren, now archaic in the foregoing sense, is used of male members of a congregation or of a fraternal organization: The brethren will meet at the church.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, � Random House, Inc. 2006.

http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4.html - http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=brethren&ia=ahd4 - Cite This Source - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brethren#sharethis - Share This

breth�ren (brěth'ren) http://cache.lexico.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html - Pronunciation Key
n. A plural of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brother - brother .

The American Heritage� Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

"Brothers" and "brethern" mean the same thing!

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 7:12am

True, Moses and Jesus share SOME similarities . . . but they are very few. They have more dissimilarites than similarites. Muhammad and Moses share MORE similarites compared to Jesus and Moses . . . so logically the verse will be referring to the one with more similarites.

Alike Early in Their Careers

Do you have a source for this apart from the Bible? I've never heard before that there was a slaughter of male children during Jesus' times. . . could you please explain that further?

There is nothing in history or other testaments that attests to the fact that Moses was a mild-tempered or meek-spirited man. On the contrary, BOTH Christian and Islamic (and I think Jewish as well) sources mention that Moses killed a man in his youth, during a fit of anger. This implies that he had a strong temper, and was the opposite of mild-tempered. . . which caused him to react the way he did. He also broke the tablets in anger (10 commandments) when he saw the Israelites had turned heathen, on his decsent from the mountain . . . again, attesting to his non-meek/mild nature. On the other hand Jesus was a mild-mannered, with a meek spirit . . . Moses and Jesus sound like complete opposites here.

Again, one part is correct - the other does not relate to it/is not similar.

Moses did indeed leave behind a world of great riches, because he was brought up in privelages.

Jesus on the other hand was not. Infact, you cannot compare wordly riches to 'riches in heaven' . . . As opposed to that, Muhammad again fits the description rather than Jesus. Because he was born into a rich family, and his grandfather who brought him up were rich, influential people - of a renowned tribe. Also, Muhammad, in his youth - while preaching Islam, was offered the monarchy of arabia and riches , as a bribe to stop his preaching , which he declined with a famous reply. And thus, gave up a worldly life - Just like Moses.

Also, if the riches you are talking about are un-wordly i.e. in heaven . . .how did Jesus exactly leave them behind? He returned to heaven, back to his 'favored' position etc. Heavenly riches/position can never be lost . . .it always awaits its owner. While worldly riches are another matter.

Moses and Jesus both became God�s anointed ones. The prophet Moses served as Jehovah�s anointed one to the nation of Israel.

This can apply to Muhammad as well, he was also anointed by God to the Ishmaelites . . . actually, entire mankind. How does that specifically apply to Jesus? Saying that just by bieng 'crucified', he was annointed, is a weak argument! How is that similar to Moses' annoinment?

Both Men Glorified Jehovah

Muhammad also Glorified his Lord. Same thing! Infact, Moses and Muhammad are similar because they both glorified the God of thier forefathers . . . similar - while Jesus glorified his so-called 'Father' (accord to bible) , not the same thing. Infact the Quran also has verses similar to 'go to ... in the name of thy Lord, most gracious most Merciful' I also think that this can apply to any biblical/quranic prophet since all glorified God.

By divine power, Moses and Jesus both performed miracles that glorified God.

That is the only point that I could say is relevant and valid. In this case they do share a similarity. But so does Muhammad. . . the Quran was a miracle for Muhammad. He was an illetrate/unread man, who could not have produced the Quran, yet Allah chose him for deliverance.

What? Again, in one case (Moses) you define bondage literally, as slavery - while in the other case (Jesus), you define it unliterally as leading into 'freedom'?! . . . in that case, it cannot be considered similar, you are trying to force out a similarity.

Moses freed his people from bondage/slavery - So did Muhammad. He freed suppressed, black muslim slaves from thier cruel masters and helped them migrate (just like Moses) Lots of instances in history, infact many famous Sahaba are freed, slaves.

Judging was committed to both Moses and Jesus Christ. Moses served as judge and lawgiver to fleshly Israel. Jesus serves as Judge and has given the spiritual �Israel of God� its laws and commandments.

Jesus was not a lawgiver. He was there to implement the forsaken law of Moses. . . . Jesus did not bring with him any new commandments, he simply reenforced the Mosaic Law. This is not a similarity! on the other hand, Muhammad brought with him a new law, thus was a lawgiver, and he was a judge! and he also brought with him commandments. . . Similarity.

Even as to death, Moses and Jesus were alike. How so? Well, Jehovah removed Moses� body, thus preventing men from either profaning it or idolizing it. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6; Jude 9) Similarly, God disposed of Jesus� body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith.�

! Moses died a natural, mortal death. Jesus the 'son' of God, was 'crucified' , and his body magically disappeared. . . he did not die in usual, normal circumstances, nor was his a mortal death. Moses body did not. This is again a dissimilarity b/w both. Like Moses, Muhammad also died a natural, mortal death.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 7:48am

Very good Chrysalis, you have pointed out the things for us. Thank you. Jesus was god and prophet according to christians (perhaps not a god for robin group of christians). Yet Jesus had one leg on the god's platform and the other at the prophets platform. That is unusual enough to prove that he was not That prophet of Deut 18:18.

Moses a.s. and Muhammad had similar life. i.e. born naturally, lived naturally, preached naturally for a reasonably long time (not three years) , led their people to safety and later died natually. Both Moses and Muhammad were buried naturally. Both had a mother and a father. Both Moses and Muhammad brought a law for their people. Both left a written record of their preaching / their teaching.

Both were married and had children. Jesus did not share any of those things that I have mentioned now. Actually, the church wants to deny any type of blessing to Muhammad. That is not fair.

About the miracles, the miracles of Muhammad are greater than Jesus and all prophets. Leading the people out of trouble and leaving them in safety is a great miracle. He was attacked any times and even though ill equipped, he defeted the enemy every time.

Having received the words of God is a great miracle. The Quran is a great miracle. The prophesies in the Quran are many miracles.

While the enemy was ready to attack the prophet at night to kill him, God told him to get away from the palce. And he obeyed and got away safely to Madinah is a great miracle. There was a price of 100 camels on his head, dead or alive.

He was followed by some one (Suraqah) who wanted to kill the prophet. His horse got stuck in the sand twice and he fell over. Then the follower shouted that he will not harm the prophet and that a written apology ( note of safety) may be given to him by the prophet. That note was given.

Consider the very bad situation when the prophet with only one companion was in transit to Madinah and he had nothing with him, he told Suraqah " Suragah, how happy will you be when the gold bangles of King of Iran will be in your arms!"

That prophesy had many meaning in it. That the bangles of the king of Iran will reach Madinah. That Suraqah will be alive till then. That Suraqah will have become a Muslim by then,,,, So many things are part of that prophesy. And it so happened that after many years, the king of Iran was defeated. In the time of Hazrat Umar, the gold bangles that the king used to wear were brought to Madinah.

Suraqah was called and made to wear those bangles for a few hours.

The prophet was informed about the victory of the Romans over the more powerful Persians. That Romans will be victorious within 3 to nine years and that at the same, the Muslims of madinah will also gain some great victory over the pagans of Makkah. It happened exactly like that.

It is not possible to recall all the miracles of the prophet s.a.w.s.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 8:39am

Alike Early in Their Careers

Do you have a source for this apart from the Bible? I've never heard before that there was a slaughter of male children during Jesus' times. . . could you please explain that further?

Matthew 2:16

Numbers 12:3

And the man Moses was by far the meekest of all the men who were upon the surface of the ground.

Again, one part is correct - the other does not relate to it/is not similar.

Moses did indeed leave behind a world of great riches, because he was brought up in privelages.

You may not but the Bible does:-

Philippians 2:5-8

Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, although he was existing in God�s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. ⁷ No, but he emptied himself and took a slave�s form and came to be in the likeness of men. ⁸ More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.. . .

Moses and Jesus both became God�s anointed ones. The prophet Moses served as Jehovah�s anointed one to the nation of Israel.

Muhammad was not anointed by Jehovah God, as he worshiped a different god, a nameless god called �Allah� which just means God!

Both Men Glorified Jehovah

�LORD� is just a tile like �Baal� or �Adoni.� �The name of the LORD� in the Bible is �Jehovah�:-

Isaiah 42:8

�I am Jehovah. That is my name;. . . which is total disregarded by the worshipers of the god a Muhammad:-

Micah 4:5

For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.

This Islam does not do. so is not following the God of the Bible or his prophets!

By divine power, Moses and Jesus both performed miracles that glorified God.

The Bible does not point to Muhammad as having any power from God.

Here is the freedom Jesus spoke, freedom from the false religions of Satan The Devil:-

John 8:31-47

.And so Jesus went on to say to the Jews that had believed him: �If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, ³² and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.� ³³ They replied to him: �We are Abraham�s offspring and never have we been slaves to anybody. How is it you say, �YOU will become free�?� ³⁴ Jesus answered them: �Most truly I say to YOU, Every doer of sin is a slave of sin. ³⁵ Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. ³⁶ Therefore if the Son sets YOU free, YOU will be actually free. ³⁷ I know that YOU are Abraham�s offspring; but YOU are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among YOU. ³⁸ What things I have seen with my Father I speak; and YOU, therefore, do the things YOU have heard from [YOUR] father.� ³⁹ In answer they said to him: �Our father is Abraham.� Jesus said to them: �If YOU are Abraham�s children, do the works of Abraham. ⁴⁰ But now YOU are seeking to kill me, a man that has told YOU the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. ⁴¹ YOU do the works of YOUR father.� They said to him: �We were not born from fornication; we have one Father, God.� ⁴² Jesus said to them: �If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. ⁴³ Why is it YOU do not know what I am speaking? Because YOU cannot listen to my word. ⁴⁴ YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. ⁴⁵ Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me. ⁴⁶ Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? ⁴⁷ He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.�

Not so:-

John 13:31-35

Hence when he had gone out, Jesus said: �Now the Son of man is glorified, and God is glorified in connection with him. ³² And God will himself glorify him, and he will glorify him immediately. ³³ Little children, I am with YOU a little longer. YOU will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, �Where I go YOU cannot come,� I say also to YOU at present. ³⁴ I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. ³⁵ By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.�

Galatians 6:2

Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.

Even as to death, Moses and Jesus were alike. How so? Well, Jehovah removed Moses� body, thus preventing men from either profaning it or idolizing it. (Deuteronomy 34:5, 6; Jude 9) Similarly, God disposed of Jesus� body, not allowing it to see corruption and thus preventing its becoming a stumbling block to faith.�

You miss the point:-

God disposed of their bodies as he see fit!

As Muhammad was not a servant of Jehovah God his death was of no import (just like all other men) so it does not matter how he died.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 11:00pm

I said:

Do you have a source for this apart from the Bible? I've never heard before that there was a slaughter of male children during Jesus' times. . . could you please explain that further?

Matthew 2:16

Heres the thing Robin . . . the Bible is not exactly known for its historical/factual accuracy (in this case, we're assuming that the verses regarding the prophecy are unchanged/unadultered). . . which is why I asked you to suggest another source. If you expect someone to believe what u are saying, you're supposed to use a source different from your own. But you simply restated a bible verse. However, when certain things from the bible can be reconfirmed from other sources as well, (non-christian) - they could be considered possibly believable.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 12:45am

Chrysalis wrote:

I said:

Do you have a source for this apart from the Bible? I've never heard before that there was a slaughter of male children during Jesus' times. . . could you please explain that further?

Matthew 2:16

The above was prophesied to happen by Allah at:-

Jeremiah 31:15

"This is what Jehovah has said, �In Ra�mah a voice is being heard, lamentation and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping over her sons. She has refused to be comforted over her sons, because they are no more.�"

Matthew 2:16-18

Then Herod, seeing he had been outwitted by the astrologers, fell into a great rage, and he sent out and had all the boys in Beth�le�hem and in all its districts done away with, from two years of age and under, according to the time that he had carefully ascertained from the astrologers. ¹⁷ Then that was fulfilled which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet, saying: ¹⁸ "A voice was heard in Ra�mah, weeping and much wailing; it was Rachel weeping for her children, and she was unwilling to take comfort, because they are no more."

Thus Allah confirms his own words by the event taking place!

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 2:30am

HERE IS AN ACCURATE RENDERING OF DEUT 18: 15 AND 18 ALONG WITH THE HEBREW WORDS:-

Deut 18:15

1899 Douay-Reims Bible Deut 18:15

The Lord thy God will raise up to thee a PROPHET of thy nation and of thy brethren* like unto me: him thou shalt hear:

*The 'Tanakh' (Torah) reads "your own people."

Contemporary English Version Deut 18:15

Instead, he will choose one of your own people to be a prophet just like me, and you must do what that prophet says.

K.J.V. Deut 18:15

The LORD³⁰⁶⁸ thy God⁴³⁰ will raise up⁶⁹⁶⁵ unto thee a Prophet⁵⁰³⁰ from the midst^{4480, 7130} of thee, of thy brethren,^{4480, 251} like unto me;³⁶⁴⁴ unto⁴¹³ him ye shall hearken;⁸⁰⁸⁵

Hebrew Words underlined:-

H4480 נּי מנּי מן min minnîy minnêy min, min-nee', min-nay'

For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

H251 אח 'âch awkh

A primitive word; a brother (used in the widest sense of literal relationship and metaphorical affinity or resemblance (like H1)): - another, brother (-ly), kindred, like, other. Compare also the proper names beginning with �Ah-� or �Ahi-�.

Deut 18:18

1899 Douay-Reims Bible Deut 18:18

I will raise them up a prophet out of the midst of their brethren* like to thee: and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.

*The 'Tanakh' (Torah) reads "thier own people."

Contemporary English Version Deut 18:18

So when I want to speak to them, I will choose one of them to be a prophet like you. I will give my message to that prophet, who will tell the people exactly what I have said.

K.J.V. Deut 18:18

I will raise them up⁶⁹⁶⁵ a Prophet⁵⁰³⁰ from among^{4480, 7130} their brethren,²⁵¹ like unto thee,³⁶⁴⁴ and will put⁵⁴¹⁴ my words¹⁶⁹⁷ in his mouth;⁶³¹⁰ and he shall speak¹⁶⁹⁶ unto⁴¹³ them ⁽⁸⁵³⁾ all³⁶⁰⁵ that⁸³⁴ I shall command⁶⁶⁸⁰ him.

�The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible� - The oldest know Bible translated for the first time into English. Translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich page 172; Deuteronomy 18:18
�I will raise for them a prophet like you from among their COUNTRYMEN; I will put my words* in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.�
*Thus Jesus is called �The Word� in John 1:1-2.

Hebrew Words underlined:-

H251 אח 'âch awkh

Thus showing that God's Prophet like Moses was to be from the Israelite nation!

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 6:57am

robin wrote:

Muhammad was not anointed by Jehovah God, as he worshiped a different god, a nameless god called �Allah� which just means God!

Who are you to put words into our mouth? If Muslims say we believe in the same God as you . . .who are you to say we dont? Can you actually tell me, that no . . .YOU believe in something else, thats MY God ! unbelievable.

Jehovah, God, Allah, Lord, Bhagvaan, Ishwar . . . whatever word you want to use for the SOLE CREATOR is okay with me. You may call a fruit an Orange, and I can call it a Kinoo. . . that does not change the nature of the fruit or what it is, essentially we will both eat the same thing.

The Bieng is the same, you can switch words.

Muhammad made things clear, he said he believed in the God of Ishmael, Moses, Jesus.

�LORD� is just a tile like �Baal� or �Adoni.� �The name of the LORD� in the Bible is �Jehovah�:-

Isaiah 42:8

�I am Jehovah. That is my name;. . . which is total disregarded by the worshipers of the god a Muhammad:-

Again with the fixation of 'names' ! I used the word Lord, the arabic word can be translated to God etc. Thats irrelevant! When you argue on something as trivial as 'what to call God' , it tells me that theres nothing else substantial about your faith . . .

For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.

This Islam does not do. so is not following the God of the Bible or his prophets!

If any religion does justice to the Prophets of the 'Bible' . . .it is Islam. We give ALL the Prophets the due respect they deserve, without confusing them with God, the Almighty - or associating partners with Him. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Ishmael, Jonah, Isaac, John, Solomon, David . . . . you name it, the Qur'an talks of them in detail, and so did Prophet Muhammad.

Muslims follow 'your' Prophets more than you do. Mosaic Law, Abraham, Jesus . . . Islam includes fundamentals that reflect the teachings of all the above stated Prophets and more. You tell me which religion gives that much importance to ALL the Prophets. Judaism picked thier favourites, Christianity did the same. It is Islam that continues the tradition and memories of 'your' Prophets . . . .Islam contains fundamentals that are dedicated to the traditions of the above stated Prophets, whether it be Hajj, Salaat, Eid-al-Azha etc etc.

The Bible does not point to Muhammad as having any power from God.

Again with the Bible thumping! According to you, the Bible doesnt even mention Muhammad? It is us that insist that it does. . .

Not so:-

John 13:31-35

�Where I go YOU cannot come,� I say also to YOU at present. ³⁴ I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. ³⁵ By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.�w

So the new 'law' Jesus brought was 'love' ? ? ? All your 'evidence' as such has been figurative, with conveniently a lot of room for far-fetched interpretations . . .

I'm sorry, but the law of 'love' does not work in this world, you need actual laws. . like the ones Moses brought, and then Muhammad. See? s-i-m-i-l-a-r.

Even if we were to agree (for arguments sake! *rolls eyes*) that Jesus did bring a new law of 'love' . . . it is not similar to the laws brought by Moses, does eliminating Jesus from the prophecy, and naturally pointing to Muhammad. Moses' law was practical and applicable - just like Muhammad's. while Jesus' so-called 'law' is not.

You miss the point:-

God disposed of their bodies as he see fit!

As Muhammad was not a servant of Jehovah God his death was of no import (just like all other men) so it does not matter how he died.

No, you miss the point. Lets revise what we're talking about here . . . 'Similarities b/w Moses and Muhammad' versus 'Similarities b/w Moses and Jesus' . . .

it does not matter that you do not consider Muhammad a servant of 'Jehovah' , they are yet similar, which points the Prophecy towards Muhammad, not Jesus.

Muhammad died a natural death, Moses died a natural death. Similar.

Jesus was crucified and his 'death' was under unsusual circumstances - Different.

We dont even have to discuss all the other details . . . , for you, the mere fact that Moses was a man , and Jesus was a 'son' of God - shows how very DIFFERENT both were! Implying that the prophecy could NOT have been pointed towards Jesus.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 7:23am

[QUOTE=Chrysalis][QUOTE=robin]

Muhammad was not anointed by Jehovah God, as he worshiped a different god, a nameless god called �Allah� which just means God!

The Bieng is the same, you can switch words.

Muhammad made things clear, he said he believed in the God of Ishmael, Moses, Jesus.

[QUOTE]

Not me, but the Bible says so!

Exodus 3:15

Then God said once more to Moses: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, �Jehovah (Heb.vuvh) the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.� This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (the first three).

Exodus 20:1-7

�And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:

1 ² �I am Jehovah (Heb.vuvh) your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. ³ You must not have any other gods against my face.

2 ⁴ �You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. ⁵ You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; ⁶ but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.

3 ⁷ �You must not take up the name of Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

Thus says Almighty God!

My God is not your God, and your God is not mine, they are very different!

Mine is the God that Moses wrote about as in the above.

For example your God has 99 names, mine has one.

I follow the prophet Jesus who said at Matthew 6:9:-

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 9:41am

Chrysalis wrote:

[QUOTE=robin]

[QUOTE]

The Bible does not point to Muhammad as having any power from God.

Again with the Bible thumping! According to you, the Bible doesnt even mention Muhammad? It is us that insist that it does. . .

[QUOTE]

All Jesus ever used in teaching was the Bible, so now you condemn Jesus also as he is for true followers of him:-

1 Peter 2:21

In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.. . .

What did he, Jesus, suffer for, teaching from the Bible!

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 7:34pm

robin, the kjv version is telling a prophet from their brethren. In Deut 18:15 is written from thy brethren. In Deut 18:18 it is written "A prophet like thee from their brethren". So who could be the prophet from their brethren?

If the prophet was to come fromt the Israelis, there was no need to say from where he was coming. Many hundred prophets came from the children of Israel. So it could be any one of those prophets if your meaning is taken.

Why was it that it was said "A prophet will be raised for them from their brethren."? There were many prophets (not one) from the Israelis. It is surely telling about a prophet to come from the brethren of the Israelis and not from the Israelis.

If the prophet was to come from the children of Jacob then it would have said the prophet would be from the Israelis and would not say from the brethren of Israelis.

robin, you are reading it all wrong. What you are trying to teach is that another prophet the like of Moses was to be raised from the Israelis. That means another Moses was to be born? Utterly wrong. Another prophet, the like of Moses, from the children of Jacob, means another Moses. That is utterly wrong. There was no such promise and no such person ever arrived.

What you are teaching is that the prophesy of Deut 18:18 has not been fulfilled yet.

Did Mosess ever go near the cross? No.

Did he carry any cross? No.

Did Moses die on the cross.? No.

Did Moses go up to heaven? No.

So Jesus as described in your own bible is not the like of Moses. But you are sure that he was similar. It is not fair to say that

Moses used to sleep. Jesus also used to sleep.

Moses used to eat. Jesus also used to eat.

Moses used to speak. Jesus also used to speak.

Such weak things are never part of any prophecy. Your given similarities are of the same weak category.

The christians (not you JW or YW) try to make Jesus a man, a son of man, a god, a son of god, a prophet and messenger all at the same time just to get over the various problems.

Tell me robin, what use it is to make Jesus a prophet when he is a god. Is God bigger or the prophet?

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 7:26am

minuteman wrote:

K. J. V. Deuteronomy 18:14-18

Setting and Context.

Vs. 14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

In verse 14 God is talking about the �nations,� those who are non Israelites (Gentiles), then turn his attention back to the Israelites when he says �which thou ...� and �for thee ...� as he is talking about giving his people the �promised land� etc. and they should not copy the ways of the people that live there!

Vs. 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Here in verse 15 with his, that is God�s attention, on the Israelites or Moses people, called �thy brethren� or �his brothers� who he. Moses, is in the �midst of� or �among.� God here is speaking in the 2^nd person about the people of Moses, not others or �these nations� of verse 14. So the subject of the verse is �a prophet� that God will �raise up� from the nation that Moses belongs to, the Israelites.

Vs. 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. See Exodus 20:18 below.

In verse 16 where is �Horeb� and who is assembled there? Verse 16 shows that God continues talking of the Israelite nation as he speaks to, via Moses, in �Horeb in the day of the assembly saying ... .� This is the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai in the district of Horeb:-

�Horeb� - �The mountain of the true God,� apparently the same as Mount Sinai. See 1 Kings 19:8; and Exodus 33:6. Generally, though, Horeb seems to designate the mountainous region around Mount Sinai, otherwise called the Wilderness of Sinai.�Deut. 1:6, 19; 4:10, 15; 5:2; 9:8; 18:16; 29:1; 1 Kings 8:9; 2 Chron. 5:10; Ps 106:19; Malachi 4:4; compare Exodus 3:1, 2; Acts 7:30.

Cross reference to show what Deut. 18:16 is referring to with Exodus 19:18, 20, 25; 20:18:-

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. ... 20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up. ...

Exodus 19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them. .... [Then the 10 Commandments where given] to ...

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Vs. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

�They have spoken well� is said of the Israelites� in Horeb or Sinai cross reference to:-

Deut. 5:28 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.

Said at the time of:-

Deut. 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. ...

2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. ...

22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Vs. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

The prophet to be raised up �them� is speaking of the people mentioned is verse 17 which we have seen was the Israelites at Mt. Sinai in the district of Horeb. Where God says �Their brethren,� here God speaking in the 3^rd person, so in verse 18 he is therefore talking of the nation of Israel as this has been the objective of the discourse to explain the �Prophet� that God will �raise� from their �midst� that is from the Israelites is to be The promised One. �Like unto thee� means that first this prophet is to come from the Israelite nation, thus one of his, Moses, �brethren� or �brothers.

In the above �LORD� = Heb. �YHWH� = Eng. �Jehovah�.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 12:44pm

You're obviosuley still fixated on what God should be 'called' , and all the 'Jehovah' business . . .

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 11:27pm

Chrysalis wrote:

You're obviosuley still fixated on what God should be 'called' , and all the 'Jehovah' business . . .

As that is the truth (see below) why not, but what about all the rest of the post above?

Isaiah 42:8 in various Bible translations that render the Hebrew correctly:-

Ameracian Standard Version

I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images.

1889 Darby Bible

I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Hebrew O.T.+

אני⁵⁸⁹ יהוה³⁰⁶⁸ הוא¹⁹³¹ שׁמי⁸⁰³⁴ וכבודי³⁵¹⁹ לאחר³¹² לא³⁸⁰⁸ אתן⁵⁴¹⁴ ותהלתי⁸⁴¹⁶ לפסילים׃⁶⁴⁵⁶

King James Version+ I all places where �LORD� appears it should read �Jehovah.�

I⁵⁸⁹ am the LORD:³⁰⁶⁸ that¹⁹³¹ is my name:⁸⁰³⁴ and my glory³⁵¹⁹ will I not³⁸⁰⁸ give⁵⁴¹⁴ to another,³¹² neither my praise⁸⁴¹⁶ to graven images.⁶⁴⁵⁶

King James Version Psalm 83:18

That men may know³⁰⁴⁵ that³⁵⁸⁸ thou,⁸⁵⁹ whose name⁸⁰³⁴ alone⁹⁰⁵ is JEHOVAH,³⁰⁶⁸ art the most high⁵⁹⁴⁵ over⁵⁹²¹ all³⁶⁰⁵ the earth.⁷⁷⁶

Strong�s Hebrew Dictionary #3068 יהוה y^ehôvâh yeh-ho-vaw'

From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

I am Jehovah; that is My name; and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images.

Modern Kings James Version

I am Jehovah; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.

New Simplified Bible

ALONE AM JEHOVAH. THAT IS MY NAME. I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY TO ANOTHER! I will not let idols share my praise.

Young�s Literal Transl;ation

I am Jehovah, this is My name, And Mine honour to another I give not, Nor My praise to graven images.

New World Transaltion of the Holy Scriptures

�I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 9:05am

�JACOB� IS CALLED �ISRAEL� BY GOD.

Genesis 32:27-28

�So he said to him: �What is your name?� to which he said: �Jacob.� ²⁸ Then he said: �Your name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel, . . .�

THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THAT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE IS THE GOD OF �ISHMAEL�!

THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB (OR ISRAEL) IS THE GOD OF THE CHRISTIANS, BUT WHO IS HE?

Genesis

32:9 After that Jacob said: �O God of my father Abraham and God of my father Isaac, O Jehovah (Heb. vuvh), you who are saying to me, �Return to your land and to your relatives and I will deal well with you,�

50:24 At length Joseph said to his brothers: �I am dying; but God will without fail turn his attention to YOU, and he will certainly bring YOU up out of this land to the land about which he swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob.�

Exodus

2:24 In time God heard their groaning and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

3:6-7 And he went on to say: �I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.� Then Moses concealed his face, because he was afraid to look at the [true] God. 7 And Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) added: �Unquestionably I have seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and I have heard their outcry as a result of those who drive them to work; because I well know the pains they suffer.

3:15-16 �This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, �Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.� This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation. 16 You go, and you must gather the older men of Israel, and you must say to them, �Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) the God of YOUR forefathers has appeared to me, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying: �I will without fail give attention to YOU and to what is being done to YOU in Egypt.

4:5 �In order that,� to quote him, �they may believe that Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) the God of their forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.�

6:2-3 And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: �I am Jehovah (Heb. vuvh). 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) I did not make myself known to them.

6:8 And I shall certainly bring YOU into the land that I raised my hand in oath to give to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and I shall indeed give it to YOU as something to possess. I am Jehovah.��

33:1 And Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) said further to Moses: �Go, move up from here, you and the people whom you led up out of the land of Egypt, to the land about which I swore to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, �To your seed I shall give it.

Leviticus

26:42 And I shall indeed remember my covenant with Jacob; and even my covenant with Isaac and even my covenant with Abraham I shall remember, and the land I shall remember.

Numbers

32:10-11 Consequently Jehovah�s (Heb. vuvh) anger blazed on that day so that he swore, saying, 11 �The men who came up out of Egypt from twenty years old upward will not see the soil of which I have sworn to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, because they have not followed me wholly,

Deuteronomy

1:8 See, I do put the land before YOU people. Go in and take possession of the land about which Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) swore to YOUR fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give it to them and their seed after them.�

6:10 �And it must occur that when Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God will bring you into the land that he swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give you, great and good-looking cities that you did not build,

9:5 It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going in to take possession of their land; in fact, it is for the wickedness of these nations that Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God is driving them away from before you, and in order to carry out the word that Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) swore to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

9:26-27 And I began to make supplication to Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) and to say, �O Sovereign Lord Jehovah (Heb. vuvh), do not bring to ruin your people, even your private property, whom you redeemed with your greatness, whom you brought out of Egypt with a strong hand. 27 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Do not turn your face to the hardness of this people and their wickedness and their sin,

29:12-13 in order for you to enter into the covenant of Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God and his oath, which Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God is concluding with you today; 13 for the purpose of establishing you today as his people and that he may prove himself your God, just as he has promised you and just as he has sworn to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

30:20 by loving Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.�

34:4 And Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) went on to say to him: �This is the land about which I have sworn to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, �To your seed I shall give it.� I have caused you to see it with your own eyes, as you will not cross over there.�

2 Kings

13:23 However, Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) showed them favor and had mercy upon them and turned to them for the sake of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and he did not want to bring them to ruin, and he did not cast them away from before his face until now.

Psalm

105:7-10 He is Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) our God. His judicial decisions are in all the earth.

8 He has remembered his covenant even to time indefinite, The word that he commanded, to a thousand generations, 9 Which [covenant] he concluded with Abraham, And his sworn statement to Isaac, 10 And which [statement] he kept standing as a regulation even to Jacob, As an indefinitely lasting covenant even to Israel,

Jeremiah

33:25-26 �This is what Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) has said, �If it was not a fact that I had appointed my own covenant of the day and night, the statutes of heaven and earth, 26 so too I would reject even the seed of Jacob and of David my servant, so that I should not take from his seed rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I shall gather their captives and will have pity upon them.��

Matthew

22:29-33 In reply Jesus said to them: �YOU are mistaken, because YOU know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God; 30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven. 31 As regards the resurrection of the dead, did YOU not read what was spoken to YOU by God, saying, 32 �I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob�? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.�

Mark

12:26-27 But concerning the dead, that they are raised up, did YOU not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, how God said to him, �I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob�? 27 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living. YOU are much mistaken.�

Luke

20:37 But that the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah (Hebrew New Testament vuvh) �the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.�

Acts

3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom YOU, for YOUR part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate�s face, when he had decided to release him.

7:30-33 �And when forty years were fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Si�nai an angel in the fiery flame of a thornbush. ³¹ Now when Moses saw it he marveled at the sight. But as he was approaching to investigate, Jehovah�s (Hebrew New Testament vuvh) voice came, ³² �I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob.� Seized with trembling, Moses did not dare to investigate further. ³³ Jehovah (Hebrew New Testament vuvh) said to him, �Take the sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.

Acts 15:12-18

At that the entire multitude became silent, and they began to listen to Bar'na�bas and Paul relate the many signs and portents that God did through them among the nations. 13 After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: �Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym'e�on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 �After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah (Hebrew New Testament vuvh), together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah (Hebrew New Testament vuvh), who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.�

Further on Acts 15:14

�Simeon hath declared how God* at the first did visit the Gentiles**, to take out of them a people for his name***. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord****, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called***, saith the Lord****, who doeth all these things.�

*God of the Jewish People.

**Non Jews; Christianized Gentiles.

***X-ref. Isa. 55:5 �Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD^ thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.�

^ �In the KJV, adhonay is given as "Lord," and Jehovah (Heb. Yahweh, "the self-existent One") is printed "LORD."-Compton's Interactive Bible NIV.

^Hebrew text reads � vuvh."

***What Name (the God of the Jews)? See Psalm 83:18, which reads, �That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.�

****Which �Lord�?

****X-ref. Amos 9:12 �That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD^ that doeth this.�

^ �In the KJV, adhonay is given as "Lord," and Jehovah (Heb. Yahweh, "the self-existent One") is printed "LORD."-Compton's Interactive Bible NIV.

^Hebrew text reads � vuvh.�

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 9:50am

�THE GOD OF ISRAEL� NOT THE GOD OF ISHMAEL!

In the following just not the phrase "the God of Israel" in any verses you choose read!

Genesis 33:20

After that he set up there an altar and called it God the God of Israel.

Exodus 5:1

and afterward Moses and Aaron went in and proceeded to say to Phar�aoh: �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �Send my people away that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.�. . .

Exodus 24:9-10

And Moses and Aaron, Na�dab and A�bi�hu and seventy of the older men of Israel proceeded to go up, 10 and they got to see the God of Israel. . . .

Exodus 32:27

He now said to them: �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, . . .

Exodus 34:23

Three times in the year every male of yours is to appear before the [true] Lord, Jehovah, the God of Israel.

Numbers 16:9

Is it such a little thing for YOU men that the God of Israel has separated YOU men from the assembly of Israel to present YOU to himself to carry on the service of Jehovah�s tabernacle and to stand before the assembly to minister to them,

Joshua 7:13

Get up! Sanctify the people, and you must say, �Sanctify yourselves tomorrow, for this is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said: �A thing devoted to destruction is in your midst, O Israel. You will not be able to rise up against your enemies until YOU people have removed the thing devoted to destruction from YOUR midst.

Joshua 7:19-20

Then Joshua said to A�chan: �My son, render, please, glory to Jehovah the God of Israel and make confession to him, and tell me, please, What have you done? Do not hide it from me.� 20 At this A�chan answered Joshua and said: �For a fact I�I have sinned against Jehovah the God of Israel, and this way and that way I have done.

Joshua 8:30

It was then that Joshua proceeded to build an altar to Jehovah the God of Israel, in Mount E�bal,

Joshua 9:18-19

And the sons of Israel did not strike them, because the chieftains of the assembly had sworn to them by Jehovah the God of Israel. And all the assembly began to murmur against the chieftains. 19 At this all the chieftains said to all the assembly: �We, for our part, have sworn to them by Jehovah the God of Israel, and now we are not allowed to hurt them.. . .

Joshua 10:40-42

And Joshua proceeded to strike all the land of the mountainous region and the Neg�eb and the She�phe�lah and the slopes and all their kings. He did not let a survivor remain, and everything that breathed he devoted to destruction, just as Jehovah the God of Israel had commanded. 41 And Joshua went striking them from Ka�desh-bar�ne�a to Ga�za and all the land of Go�shen and up to Gib�e�on. 42 And Joshua captured all these kings and their land at one time, because it was Jehovah the God of Israel who was fighting for Israel.

Joshua 13:14

It was only to the tribe of the Levites that he did not give an inheritance. The offerings made by fire of Jehovah the God of Israel are their inheritance, just as he has promised them.

Joshua 13:33

And to the tribe of the Levites Moses did not give an inheritance. Jehovah the God of Israel is their inheritance, just as he has promised them.

Joshua 14:14

That is why He�bron has come to belong to Ca�leb the son of Je�phun�neh the Ken�iz�zite as an inheritance down to this day, for the reason that he followed Jehovah the God of Israel fully.. . .

Joshua 22:16

�This is what all the assembly of Jehovah have said, �What is this act of unfaithfulness that YOU have perpetrated against the God of Israel in turning back today from following Jehovah by YOUR building for yourselves an altar, that YOU may rebel today against Jehovah?

Joshua 22:24

or if it was not rather out of anxious care for something else that we did this, saying, �In a future day YOUR sons will say to our sons: �What do YOU have to do with Jehovah the God of Israel?

Joshua 24:2

And Joshua went on to say to all the people: �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �It was on the other side of the River that YOUR forefathers dwelt a long time ago, Te�rah the father of Abraham and the father of Na�hor, and they used to serve other gods.

Joshua 24:23-24

�And now remove the foreign gods that are among YOU, and incline YOUR hearts to Jehovah the God of Israel.� 24 In turn the people said to Joshua: �Jehovah our God we shall serve, and to his voice we shall listen!�

Judges 4:6

And she proceeded to send and call Ba�rak the son of A�bin�o�am out of Ke�desh-naph�ta�li and to say to him: �Has not Jehovah the God of Israel given the command? . . .

Judges 6:8

Jehovah proceeded to send a man, a prophet, to the sons of Israel and to say to them: �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �It was I who brought YOU up from Egypt and thus brought YOU out of the house of slaves.

Judges 11:21-23

At this Jehovah the God of Israel gave Si�hon and all his people into Israel�s hand, so that they struck them and Israel took possession of all the land of the Am�or�ites inhabiting that land. 22 Thus they took possession of all the territory of the Am�or�ites from the Ar�non as far as the Jab�bok and from the wilderness as far as the Jordan. 23 ��And now Jehovah the God of Israel it was that dispossessed the Am�or�ites from before his people Israel, and you, for your part, would dispossess them.

Judges 21:3

And they would say: �Why, O Jehovah the God of Israel, has this occurred in Israel, for one tribe to be missing today from Israel?�

Ruth 2:12

May Jehovah reward the way you act, and may there come to be a perfect wage for you from Jehovah the God of Israel, under whose wings you have come to seek refuge.�

1 Samuel 1:17

Then E�li answered and said: �Go in peace, and may the God of Israel grant your petition that you have asked of him.�

1 Samuel 2:30

That is why the utterance of Jehovah the God of Israel is: �I did indeed say, As for your house and the house of your forefather, they will walk before me to time indefinite.�. . .

1 Samuel 5:7-11

And the men of Ash�dod came to see that it was so, and they said: �Do not let the ark of the God of Israel dwell with us, because his hand has been hard against us and against Da�gon our god.� 8 Consequently they sent and gathered all the axis lords of the Phi�lis�tines to them and said: �What shall we do to the ark of the God of Israel?� Finally they said: �Toward Gath let the ark of the God of Israel go around.� So they brought the ark of the God of Israel around to there. 9 And it came about that after they had brought it around to there, the hand of Jehovah came to be upon the city with a very great confusion, and he began striking the men of the city, from small to great, and piles began breaking out on them. 10 Hence they sent the ark of the [true] God to Ek�ron. And it came about that as soon as the ark of the [true] God came to Ek�ron, the Ek�ron�ites began to cry out, saying: �They have brought the ark of the God of Israel around to me to put me and my people to death!� 11 Consequently they sent and gathered all the axis lords of the Phi�lis�tines and said: �SEND the ark of the God of Israel away that it may return to its place and may not put me and my people to death.� . . .

1 Samuel 6:1-5

And the ark of Jehovah proved to be in the field of the Phi�lis�tines seven months. 2 And the Phi�lis�tines proceeded to call the priests and the diviners, saying: �What shall we do with the ark of Jehovah? Let us know with what we should send it away to its place.� 3 To this they said: �If YOU are sending the ark of the God of Israel away, do not send it away without an offering, for YOU should by all means return to him a guilt offering. Then it is that YOU will be healed, and it must become known to YOU why his hand would not turn away from YOU.� 4 At this they said: �What is the guilt offering that we ought to return to him?� Then they said: �According to the number of the axis lords of the Phi�lis�tines, five golden piles and five golden jerboas, for every one of YOU and YOUR axis lords have the same scourge. 5 And YOU must make images of YOUR piles and images of YOUR jerboas that are bringing the land to ruin, and YOU must give glory to the God of Israel.. . .

1 Samuel 10:17-18

And Samuel proceeded to call the people together to Jehovah at Miz�pah 18 and to say to the sons of Israel: �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �It was I who brought Israel up out of Egypt and who went delivering YOU from the hand of Egypt and from the hand of all the kingdoms that were oppressing YOU.

1 Samuel 14:41

And Saul proceeded to say to Jehovah: �O God of Israel, do give Thum�mim!� Then Jon�a�than and Saul were taken, and the people themselves went out.

1 Samuel 20:12

And Jon�a�than went on to say to David: �Jehovah the God of Israel [be a witness] that I shall sound out my father about this time tomorrow, or the third day, and if he is well-disposed toward David, shall I not then send to you and certainly disclose it to your ear?. . .

1 Samuel 23:10-11

And David went on to say: �O Jehovah the God of Israel, your servant has definitely heard that Saul is seeking to come to Kei�lah to lay the city in ruin on my account. 11 Will the landowners of Kei�lah surrender me into his hand? Will Saul come down just as your servant has heard? O Jehovah the God of Israel, tell your servant, please.� To this Jehovah said: �He will come down.�

1 Samuel 25:32-34

At this David said to Ab�i�gail: �Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, who has sent you this day to meet me! 33 And blessed be your sensibleness, and blessed be you who have restrained me this day from entering into bloodguilt and having my own hand come to my salvation. 34 And, on the other hand, as Jehovah the God of Israel is living, who has held me back from doing injury to you, . . .

2 Samuel 7:27

For you, Jehovah of armies the God of Israel, have made a revelation to your servant�s ear, saying, �A house I shall build for you.� That is why your servant has taken heart to pray to you with this prayer.

2 Samuel 12:7

Then Nathan said to David: �You yourself are the man! This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �I myself anointed you as king over Israel, and I myself delivered you out of the hand of Saul.

(2 Samuel 23:3) . . .The God of Israel said, To me the Rock of Israel spoke, �When one ruling over mankind is righteous, Ruling in the fear of God,

1 Kings 1:30

just as I have sworn to you by Jehovah the God of Israel, saying, �Sol�o�mon your son is the one that will become king after me, and he is the one that will sit upon my throne in place of me!� that is the way I shall do this day.�

1 Kings 1:48

Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, who has today given one to sit upon my throne, with my own eyes seeing it!��

1 Kings 8:14-21

Then the king turned his face and began to bless all the congregation of Israel, while all the congregation of Israel were standing up. 15 And he went on to say: �Blessed is Jehovah the God of Israel, who spoke by his own mouth with David my father, and by his own hand has given fulfillment, saying, 16 �From the day that I brought my people Israel out from Egypt I have not chosen a city out of all the tribes of Israel to build a house for my name to continue there; but I shall choose David to come to be over my people Israel.� 17 And it came to be close to the heart of David my father to build a house to the name of Jehovah the God of Israel. 18 But Jehovah said to David my father, �For the reason that it proved to be close to your heart to build a house to my name, you did well, because it proved to be close to your heart. 19 Only you yourself will not build the house, but your son who is coming forth from your loins is the one that will build the house to my name.� 20 And Jehovah proceeded to carry out his word that he had spoken, that I might rise up in the place of David my father and sit upon the throne of Israel, just as Jehovah had spoken, and that I might build the house to the name of Jehovah the God of Israel, 21 and that I might locate a place there for the Ark where the covenant of Jehovah is that he concluded with our forefathers when he was bringing them out from the land of Egypt.�

1 Kings 8:22-26

And Sol�o�mon began standing before the altar of Jehovah in front of all the congregation of Israel, and he now spread his palms out to the heavens; 23 and he went on to say: �O Jehovah the God of Israel, there is no God like you in the heavens above or on the earth beneath, keeping the covenant and the loving-kindness toward your servants who are walking before you with all their heart, 24 you who have kept toward your servant David my father that which you promised him, so that you made the promise with your own mouth, and with your own hand you have made the fulfillment, as at this day. 25 And now, O Jehovah the God of Israel, keep toward your servant David my father that which you promised him, saying, �There will not be cut off a man of yours from before me to sit upon the throne of Israel, if only your sons will take care of their way by walking before me just as you have walked before me.� 26 And now, O God of Israel, let your promise that you have promised to your servant David my father prove trustworthy, please.

1 Kings 11:9

And Jehovah came to be incensed at Sol�o�mon, because his heart had inclined away from Jehovah the God of Israel, the one appearing to him twice.

1 Kings 11:31

Take for yourself ten pieces; for this is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �Here I am ripping the kingdom out of the hand of Sol�o�mon, and I shall certainly give you ten tribes.

1 Kings 14:7

Go, say to Jer�o�bo�am, �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said: �For the reason that I raised you up out of the middle of your people, that I might constitute you a leader over my people Israel,

1 Kings 14:13

And all Israel will indeed bewail him and bury him, because this one alone of Jer�o�bo�am�s will come into a burial place; for the reason that something good toward Jehovah the God of Israel has been found in him in the house of Jer�o�bo�am.

1 Kings 15:30

on account of the sins of Jer�o�bo�am with which he sinned and with which he caused Israel to sin [and] by his offensiveness with which he offended Jehovah the God of Israel.

1 Kings 16:13

on account of all the sins of Ba�a�sha and the sins of E�lah his son with which they sinned and with which they caused Israel to sin by offending Jehovah the God of Israel with their vain idols.

1 Kings 16:26

And he went walking in all the way of Jer�o�bo�am the son of Ne�bat and in his sin with which he caused Israel to sin by offending Jehovah the God of Israel with their vain idols.

1 Kings 16:33

And A�hab went on to make the sacred pole; and A�hab came to do more to offend Jehovah the God of Israel than all the kings of Israel that happened to be prior to him.

1 Kings 17:1

And E�li�jah the Tish�bite from the inhabitants of Gil�e�ad proceeded to say to A�hab: �As Jehovah the God of Israel before whom I do stand is living, there will occur during these years neither dew nor rain, except at the order of my word!�

1 Kings 17:14

For this is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �The large jar of flour itself will not get exhausted, and the small jar of oil itself will not fail until the day of Jehovah�s giving a downpour upon the surface of the ground.. . .

1 Kings 22:53

And he continued serving Ba�al and bowing down to him and kept offending Jehovah the God of Israel according to all that his father had done.

2 Kings 9:6

So he got up and came into the house; and he proceeded to pour the oil out upon his head and say to him: �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �I do anoint you as king over Jehovah�s people, that is, over Israel.

2 Kings 10:31

And Je�hu himself did not take care to walk in the law of Jehovah the God of Israel with all his heart. He did not turn aside from the sins of Jer�o�bo�am with which he caused Israel to sin.

2 Kings 14:25

He it was that restored the boundary of Israel from the entering in of Ha�math clear to the sea of the Ar�a�bah, according to the word of Jehovah the God of Israel who spoke by means of his servant Jo�nah the son of A�mit�tai, the prophet that was from Gath-he�pher.

2 Kings 18:5

In Jehovah the God of Israel he trusted; and after him there proved to be no one like him among all the kings of Judah, even those who had happened to be prior to him.

2 Kings 19:15

And Hez�e�ki�ah began to pray before Jehovah and say: �O Jehovah the God of Israel, sitting upon the cherubs, you alone are the [true] God of all the kingdoms of the earth. You yourself have made the heavens and the earth.

2 Kings 19:20-21

And Isaiah the son of A�moz proceeded to send to Hez�e�ki�ah, saying: �This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �The prayer that you have made to me concerning Sen�nach�er�ib the king of As�syr�i�a I have heard. 21 This is the word that Jehovah has spoken against him:. . .

2 Kings 21:12

That is why this is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �Here I am bringing a calamity upon Jerusalem and Judah, of which if anyone hears both his ears will tingle.

2 Kings 22:15

�This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, �. . .

2 Kings 22:18

his is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said: . . .

1 Chronicles 4:10

And Ja�bez began to call upon the God of Israel, saying: �If you will without fail bless me and actually enlarge my territory and your hand really proves to be with me, and you really preserve [me] from calamity, that it may not hurt me,�� Accordingly God brought [to pass] what he had asked.

1 Chronicles 5:26

Consequently the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul the king of As�syr�i�a even the spirit of . . .

1 Chronicles 15:12-14

and he went on to say to them: �YOU are the heads of the fathers of the Levites. Sanctify yourselves, YOU and YOUR brothers, and YOU must bring the ark of Jehovah the God of Israel up to the place that I have prepared for it. 13 Because at the first time YOU did not, Jehovah our God broke through against us, for we did not search after him according to the custom.� 14 So the priests and the Levites sanctified themselves to bring up the ark of Jehovah the God of Israel.

1 Chronicles 16:4

Then he put before the ark of Jehovah some of the Levites as ministers, both to call to remembrance and to thank and praise Jehovah the God of Israel,

1 Chronicles 16:36

Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel from time indefinite to time indefinite.�� And all the people proceeded to say, �Amen!� and a praise to Jehovah.

1 Chronicles 17:24

And let your name prove faithful and become great to time indefinite, saying, �Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, is God to Israel,� and let the house of David your servant be one lasting before you.

1 Chronicles 22:6

Moreover, he called Sol�o�mon his son that he might command him to build a house to Jehovah the God of Israel. . .

1 Chronicles 23:25

For David had said: �Jehovah the God of Israel has given rest to his people, and he will reside in Jerusalem to time indefinite.

1 Chronicles 24:19

These were their offices for their service, to come into the house of Jehovah according to their due right by the hand of Aaron their forefather, just as Jehovah the God of Israel had commanded him.

1 Chronicles 28:4

Accordingly Jehovah the God of Israel chose me out of all the house of my father to become king over Israel to time indefinite; for it was Judah that he chose as leader, and in the house of Judah my father�s house, and among my father�s sons, I was the one whom he approved, to make me king over all Israel;

1 Chronicles 29:10

Consequently David blessed Jehovah before the eyes of all the congregation and David said: �Blessed may you be, O Jehovah the God of Israel our father, from time indefinite even to time indefinite.

2 Chronicles 2:12

And Hi�ram went on to say: �Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, who made the heavens and the earth, because he has given to David the king a wise son, experienced in discretion and understanding, who will build a house to Jehovah and a house for his kingship.

2 Chronicles 29:7-10

They also closed the doors of the porch and kept the lamps extinguished, and incense they did not burn, and burnt sacrifice they did not offer up in the holy place to the God of Israel. 8 And Jehovah�s indignation came to be against Judah and Jerusalem, so that he constituted them an object at which to quake, an object of astonishment and a cause for whistling, just as YOU are seeing with YOUR own eyes. 9 And here our forefathers fell by the sword, and our sons and our daughters and our wives were in captivity for this. 10 Now it is close to my heart to conclude a covenant with Jehovah the God of Israel, that his burning anger may turn back from us. . .

Ezra 1:3

So let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel�he is the [true] God�which was in Jerusalem. . .

Ezra 3:2

And Jesh�u�a the son of Je�hoz�a�dak and his brothers the priests and Ze�rub�ba�bel the son of She�al�ti�el and his brothers proceeded to rise up and build the altar of the God of Israel, to offer up burnt sacrifices upon it, according to what is written in the law of Moses the man of the [true] God.

Psalm 41:13

Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel From time indefinite even to time indefinite. Amen and Amen.

Psalm 59:5

And you, O Jehovah God of armies, are the God of Israel. Do wake up to turn your attention to all the nations. Do not show favor to any hurtful traitors. . . .

Psalm 68:8

The earth itself rocked, Heaven itself also dripped because of God; This Si�nai [rocked] because of God, the God of Israel.

Psalm 68:35

God is fear-inspiring out of your grand sanctuary. The God of Israel he is, giving strength, even might to the people. Blessed be God.

Psalm 69:6

O may those hoping in you not be ashamed because of me, O Sovereign Lord, Jehovah of armies. O may those seeking you not be humiliated because of me, O God of Israel.

Isaiah 17:6

And there must remain in it a gleaning as when there is a beating off of the olive tree: two [or] three ripe olives in the top of the branch; four [or] five on the fruit-bearing boughs thereof,� is the utterance of Jehovah the God of Israel.

Isaiah 21:10

O my threshed ones and the son of my threshing floor, what I have heard from Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, I have reported to YOU people.

Isaiah 24:15-16

That is why in the region of light they must glorify Jehovah, in the islands of the sea the name of Jehovah, the God of Israel. 16 From the extremity of the land there are melodies that we have heard: �Decoration to the Righteous One!�. . .

Jeremiah 7:3

This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said: �Make YOUR ways and YOUR dealings good, and I will keep YOU people residing in this place.

Jeremiah 35:18-19

And to the household of the Re�cha�bites Jeremiah said: �This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said, �For the reason that YOU have obeyed the commandment of Je�hon�a�dab YOUR forefather and continue keeping all his commandments and doing according to all that he commanded YOU, 19 therefore this is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said: �There will not be cut off from Jon�a�dab the son of Re�chab a man to stand before me always.��

Ezekiel 8:4

And, look! the glory of the God of Israel was there, like the appearance that I had seen in the valley plain.

Ezekiel 9:3

And as regards the glory of the God of Israel, it was taken up from over the cherubs over which it happened to be to the threshold of the house, . . .

Ezekiel 43:2

And, look! the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the direction of the east. . .

Zephaniah 2:9

Therefore, as I am alive,� is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, �Mo�ab herself will become just like Sod�om, and the sons of Am�mon like Go�mor�rah, a place possessed by nettles, and a salt pit, and a desolate waste, even to time indefinite. . . .

Malachi 2:16

Jehovah the God of Israel has said; �and the one who with violence has covered over his garment,� Jehovah of armies has said. �And YOU must guard yourselves respecting YOUR spirit, and YOU must not deal treacherously.

Matthew 15:31

so that the crowd felt amazement as they saw the dumb speaking and the lame walking and the blind seeing, and they glorified the God of Israel.

Luke 1:68

�Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention and performed deliverance toward his people.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 3:54pm

There is much more of Yehuva in the above post. Every nation will call God according to their own language. But robin wants that they should call Him by the name Yehwah.

I wonder if robin believes that other people (non Israelis) had God too. Perhaps that God was different to the God of robin. If that God was not the same then there must be two or more Gods, a god for every nation.

What does it matter if the God is called Yehwah or some other name in any other language. Did the God reveal himself to any other nation too? This is an important question to robin now. Let us have a reply to that.

The problem is that the Yehovas have got a tower built on the name of God i.e. Yehova. Their religion is based on the name of God. They have translated their bible and all theology turned on the name of God. I wonder if Abraham and Jacob and Moses also knew that name or not? What about Noah? Did he also know about it?

WE were discussing the prophecy of the bible. But robin has got us (led us) into Yehuva. Could it be the Arabic "Ya Huwa"?

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 9:38pm

minuteman wrote:

There is much more of Yehuva in the above post. Every nation will call God according to their own language. But robin wants that they should call Him by the name Yehwah.

WE were discussing the prophecy of the bible. But robin has got us (led us) into Yehuva. Could it be the Arabic "Ya Huwa"?

Here is your answer:-

Genesis 18:13-15

Then Jehovah said to Abraham: "Why was it that Sarah laughed, saying, �Shall I really and truly give birth although I have become old?� ¹⁴ Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah? At the appointed time I shall return to you, next year at this time, and Sarah will have a son." ¹⁵ But Sarah began to deny it, saying: "I did not laugh!" For she was afraid. At this he said: "No! but you did laugh."

Genesis 24:1-4

Now Abraham was old, advanced in years; and Jehovah had blessed Abraham in everything. ² Hence Abraham said to his servant, the oldest one of his household, who was managing all he had: "Put your hand, please, under my thigh, ³ as I must have you swear by Jehovah, the God of the heavens and the God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Ca�naan�ites in among whom I am dwelling, ⁴ but you will go to my country and to my relatives, and you will certainly take a wife for my son, for Isaac."

Exodus 3:15-17

"This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, �Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.� This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation. ¹⁶ You go, and you must gather the older men of Israel, and you must say to them, �Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers has appeared to me, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying: "I will without fail give attention to YOU and to what is being done to YOU in Egypt. ¹⁷ And so I say, I shall bring YOU up out of affliction by the Egyptians to the land of the Ca�naan�ites and the Hit�tites and the Am�or�ites and the Per�iz�zites and the Hi�vites and the Jeb�u�sites, to a land flowing with milk and honey."�

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 August 2008 at 8:19pm

Thanks robin. There is Yehova in the bible OT. I don't know since when it is there and whether it is there in all versions of the bible. You have shown that it is available in the OT.

Now I ask you, do you follow those ten commandments that are in the OT? Please tell how many of the ten commandments do you follow?

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 01 September 2008 at 9:52am

minuteman wrote:

Thanks robin. There is Yehova in the bible OT. I don't know since when it is there and whether it is there in all versions of the bible. You have shown that it is available in the OT.

Now I ask you, do you follow those ten commandments that are in the OT? Please tell how many of the ten commandments do you follow?

Yes, all of them, as the prophet Jesus said:-

Matthew 22:36-40

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" ³⁷ He said to him: "�You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.� ³⁸ This is the greatest and first commandment. ³⁹ The second, like it, is this, �You must love your neighbor as yourself.� ⁴⁰ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

The "whole Law" would also include the Ten Commandments!

To true Christinas every day is a sabbath, in that God comes first in everything and not just one day a week but every day of the week!

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 September 2008 at 6:15am

robin, you are back. Welcome. Please post the list o fthe ten commandments of the OT and then we will ask you about each command. thanks.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 02 September 2008 at 1:52pm

minuteman wrote:

robin, you are back. Welcome. Please post the list o fthe ten commandments of the OT and then we will ask you about each command. thanks.

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

Exodus 20:1-17

�And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:

1 ² �I am Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. ³ You must not have any other gods against my face.

3 ⁷ �You must not take up the name of Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

4 ⁸ �Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, ⁹ you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. ¹⁰ But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates. ¹¹ For in six days Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.

5 ¹² �Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God is giving you.

6 ¹³ �You must not murder.

7 ¹⁴ �You must not commit adultery.

8 ¹⁵ �You must not steal.

9 ¹⁶ �You must not testify falsely as a witness against your fellowman.

10 ¹⁷ �You must not desire your fellowman�s house. You must not desire your fellowman�s wife, nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his ass nor anything that belongs to your fellowman.��

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 7:46am

The Ten Commandments

(Exodus 20: 1-17 & Deuteronomy 5: 6-21)

Confirmation in the Quran (Chapter: Verse)

1 Thou shall not take any god except one God.

1 "There is no other god beside GOD,"(47:19) He is the one God; there is no other god beside Him. ......(28:70)

2 Thou shall make no image of God.

2 There is nothing that equals (like) Him. (42:11) No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant.[6:103]

"My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols. (14:35)

3 Thou shall not use God's name in vain.

3 Do not subject GOD's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious, or to attain credibility among the people. (2:224)

4 Thou shall honor thy mother and father.

4 . ....and your parents shall be honored. As long as one or both of them live, you shall never say to them, "Uff" (the slightest gesture of annoyance), nor shall you shout at them; you shall treat them amicably. (17:23)

5 Thou shall not steal.

5 The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. (5:38 - 39)

6 Thou shall not lie or give false testimony.

6 ..... incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying. (24:7) Do not withhold any testimony by concealing what you had witnessed. Anyone who withholds a testimony is sinful at heart. (2:283) O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of

everything you do.[4:135]

7 Thou shall not kill.

7 ....anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. (5:32)

"You shall not kill any person - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped."(17:33)

8 Thou shall not commit adultery.

8 You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behavior. (17:32)

9 Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife or possessions.

9 You shall regard the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, the related neighbor, the unrelated neighbor, the close associate, the traveling alien, and your servants. (4:36)And do not covet what we bestowed upon any other people. Such are temporary ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to the test. What your Lord provides for you is far better, and everlasting.[20:131]

10 Thou shall keep the Sabbath holy.

10 *the Sabbath was relinquished with the revelation of the Quran. We are told in the Quran that the Sabbath was only decreed for the Jews. (16:124) God, however ,ordered us to make every effort and drop all businesses to attend the

congregational (Friday)prayer. The Submitters may tend to their business during the rest of the day.

O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer (Salat Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of GOD, and drop all business. . (62:9)

http://www.submission.org/quran/ten.html

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 6:56am

HI MM

The Ten Commandments

(Exodus 20: 1-17 & Deuteronomy 5: 6-21)

Confirmation in the Quran (Chapter: Verse)

1 Thou shall not take any god except one God.

1 "There is no other god beside GOD,"(47:19) He is the one God; there is no other god beside Him. ......(28:70)

THAT IS GOOD!

2 Thou shall make no image of God.

2 There is nothing that equals (like) Him. (42:11) No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant.[6:103]

"My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols. (14:35)

THAT IS GOOD!

3 Thou shall not use God's name in vain.

3 Do not subject GOD's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious, or to attain credibility among the people. (2:224)

THE CHURCHES HAVE TAKEN GOD�S NAME �JEHOVAH� OUT OF THE BIBLE AND REPLACED IT WITH �LORD� WHICH IS BLASPHMASE TO AN EXTREME DEGREE!

4 Thou shall honor thy mother and father.

THAT IS GOOD!

5 Thou shall not steal.

5 The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise. (5:38 - 39)

OK!

6 Thou shall not lie or give false testimony.

everything you do.[4:135]

THAT IS GOOD!

7 Thou shall not kill.

7 ....anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. (5:32)

CHRISTIAN WILL NOT EVEN GO TO WAR AS THAT IS WRONG IN GOD�S EYES AS HE HAS NOW DECREED THAT ON HE CAN TAKE LIFE NOW AS PUNISHMENT FOR ANY CRIMES AND HIS JUDGE IS THE CHRIST!

8 Thou shall not commit adultery.

8 You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behavior. (17:32)

WE AGREE HERE!

9 Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife or possessions.

9 You shall regard the parents, the relatives, the orphans, the poor, the related neighbor, the unrelated neighbor, the close associate, the traveling alien, and your servants. (4:36)And do not covet what we bestowed upon any other people. Such are temporary ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to the test. What your Lord provides for you is far better, and everlasting.[20:131]

GOOD SENTAMENTS!

10 Thou shall keep the Sabbath holy.

congregational (Friday)prayer. The Submitters may tend to their business during the rest of the day.

O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer (Salat Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of GOD, and drop all business. . (62:9)

CHRISTIAN BELEVE THAT THE DEATH OF JESUS CHRIST FINISHED THE LAW:-

Romans 10:4

For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.

Colossians 2:13-14

He kindly forgave us all our trespasses ¹⁴ and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

Ephesians 2:15

By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples (Jews and Gentiles) in union with himself into one new man and make peace;

Thus no need for the Sabbath observance, which in would be impossible to do to-day anyway!.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 7:51pm

robin, Nur_Ilahi has shown you all the ten commandments in the Quran. You have, with your very brief passing remarks agreed to them except No. 3, 7, 9 and 10. Perhaps you disagreed with the Quranic commands. Or you have disagreed and explained the diversion (new version) of the commands according to the christians, and that only according to the YW's. ( Ya Huwa's Witnesses).

robin, Please remember that these are not just sentiments. There are much more commands in the Quran. Nur has only presented those which conform to the famous Jewish Ten Commandments, Otherwise there are more than 600 commands in the Quran, catering for the material and spiritual uplift of mankind. Those commands are for mankind for ever..

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:08am

minuteman wrote:

We beleive what Jesus the prphet said at:-

Matthew 22:36-40

If we do this we do all that God wants us to do, as it sums up ALL of God's Laws.

Example, if you read the Ten Commandments the first 3 are about "Love" of Jehovah God and the remaing 7 are about love of "neighbor", thus fulfilling the God's Laws.

The principles of 3, 7, 9, 10 are what we as Christian try to live by also.

As regards 3 we stay closer to the Hebrew Bible and publish God's name -Jehovah- world wide as God told Moses to say to Pharaoh at Exodus 9:16:-

"But, in fact, for this cause I have kept you in existence, for the sake of showing you my power and in order to have my name declared in all the earth."

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 September 2008 at 1:42pm

WHAT IS THE �NAME� OF GOD MENTIONED AT DEUTERONOMEY 18:19?

The following is an explanation of what is said about Deuteronomy 18:19 in the book �A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam� on page 35 under the heading �A prophet like Moses� which reads:-

�Note that God has said in the prophecy of Deuteronomy: �If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.� (Deuteronomy, 18:19). This means that however believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet say, and this prophet is Muhammad.

Is the conclusion that is stated in the last sentence correct? It reads:-

�This means that however believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet say, and this prophet is Muhammad.�

To find out we need to go back to what the Biblical text says, which is:-

�If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.�

This quote above is taken form the �New International Version� of the Bible. The King James Version (1611) of Deuteronomy 18:19 reads:-

�And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.�

Which is very similar in wording and thought. So what does this verse say? It is God speaking about the prophet to come �like Moses�, this prophet is spoken of at Deuteronomy Ch. 18 verse 15 which reads first from the:-

New International Version

�The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.�

King James Version

�The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken.�

We see again that in both versions of the Bible it reads much the same. So let us look at what verse 19 of chapter 18 of Deuteronomy says, using the quoted verse from �A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam� on page 35, which is from the �New International Version� of the Bible:-

�If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.�

This verse makes four points, a) God�s words are to come, b) via �the prophet� c) �the prophet� is to speak in God�s �name� d) if �the prophet� is �not� listened to, God will hold an accounting with those who do not listen, this last point is a warning from God that he will punish them! What do the four points mean?

Points a, b, and d, are easy to understand, God will use his prophet to send his message to mankind explaining his will for them, which they will either obey and reap blessing from God, or disobey and suffer the consequences of their actions and God�s displeasure.

Point d, is interesting as it says �that the prophet speaks in my name.� We should ask what is that �name,� as it is the �name� of the God of Moses, so to find what that �name� is we will look as something else Moses wrote.

In the King James Version of The Bible at Exodus 6:2-3 we read what Moses heard God say of himself:-

�And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�

The �New International Version� of the Bible� renders the same verse as:-

�God also said to Moses, "I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.�

Notice that the �New International Version� leave out the �name� �Jehovah� and substitutes the word �LORD� instead, why is this? The introduction of the New International Version Study Bible on page xii it explains:-

�In regards to the divine name YHWH, commonly called the Tetragrammaton, the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of rendering that name as �LORD� in capital letters to distinguish it from Adonai, another Hebrew word rendered �lord� for which small letters are used. Where ever the two names stand together in the Old Testament as a compound name of God, they are rendered �Sovereign LORD.��

Whereas the King James Version uses the divine �name,� instead of �LORD,� in one of the two places, were it appears in theses two verses. The correctness of the King James Version using �Jehovah� is show proved by James Strong�s Hebrew Dictionary which states on �Jehovah�:-

"No.3069 vuvh Yehovah, yeh-ho-vee�; from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God :- Jehovah, the Lord. Comp. 3050, 3060."

Other Biblical texts where God�s name �JEHOVAH� can be found in the Kings James Version of the Bible are Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2 and 26:4. Further to the above is this comment by D.B.J. in his book �The Old Testament for Modern Readers�:-

�Of all the words for God Jehovah, �or Yahweh� is the only one which is a proper name�

So we see that the �New International Version� hides the fact that God has a �name� whereas the �King James Version of 1611� uses the �name� �Jehovah- thus showing that �the prophet� of Deuteronomy 18:15 would come in the �name� of �Jehovah.� Muhammad did not do that, so how can he be the promised �prophet�?

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 12:05am

robin wrote:

WHAT IS THE �NAME� OF GOD MENTIONED AT DEUTERONOMEY 18:19?

Is the conclusion that is stated in the last sentence correct? It reads:-

�This means that however believes in the Bible must believe in what this prophet say, and this prophet is Muhammad.�

To find out we need to go back to what the Biblical text says, which is:-

�If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.�

This quote above is taken form the �New International Version� of the Bible. The King James Version (1611) of Deuteronomy 18:19 reads:-

�And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.�

New International Version

�The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him.�

King James Version

�The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken.�

�If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.�

In the King James Version of The Bible at Exodus 6:2-3 we read what Moses heard God say of himself:-

The �New International Version� of the Bible� renders the same verse as:-

�God also said to Moses, "I am the LORD. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.�

"No.3069 vuvh Yehovah, yeh-ho-vee�; from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God :- Jehovah, the Lord. Comp. 3050, 3060."

�Of all the words for God Jehovah, �or Yahweh� is the only one which is a proper name�

robin, you were doing very well upto a certain point. I have colored that part red. I do not know that Jesus preached anything in name of Jehova. And your insistance on the name of God (yehova) is wrong. It is not the purpose of the verse Deut 18:19 that you are taking. The verse is teling that the prophet will have messages from me and will deliver those messages coming from me in my name, means he will speak and tell that it is from God. He will speak in the name of God that these are messages from God.

That is exactly what happened with Muhammad. Every revealed chapter (except one) begins with the word " In the name of God, the Beneficient, the Merciful". The word used for God is Allah. It means the prophet will not speak for himself but he will speak for God. That is also in accordance with the prophecy of Jesus in John who said "He shall not speak for himself but what so ever he shall hear, that shall he speak."

So you are wrongly using the name of God in these verses. When it says that He shall speak in my name, it means he shall speak in the name of God and not in his own name or capacity.

You have got an entirely wrong notion about the God having a name and He telling His name and then you have built a whole wrong religion on just a name of God. We have many names of God. There are 100 names and Allah is one personal name.

You are trying to push a cart for nothing. That is the name of the God of Moses. So what is the name of the god of Issac or Abraham? It is a useless effort.

robin, please tell me who is that prophet of Deut 18:18? Please tell who you think is that prophet. Do not give a long lecture. Just tell me his name please.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 10:46am

robin, please tell me who is that prophet of Deut 18:18? Please tell who you think is that prophet. Do not give a long lecture. Just tell me his name please.

Jesus Christ; the Greatest Jehovah's Witness to walk the face of the Earth!

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 7:04pm

To Robin

May peace and blessings of Allah Almighty be on all of you

Firstly,we donot need to prove prophecy of Prophet Muhammad with the help of Bible due to its http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/ - textual problems .

Secondly,its not very clear that Deut.18:18 is speaking about Prophet Muhammad or Prophet Jesus.

Here is wonderful 80-page article by brother mailto:[email protected] - Human Hassan on this topic by the name of http://answering-christianity.com/umar_hassan/that_prophet.htm - The Hidden Truth

I hope these above information will definitely help you.

Thanks all of you.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 26 September 2008 at 12:30am

Mansoor_ali wrote:

To Robin

May peace and blessings of Allah Almighty be on all of you

Firstly,we donot need to prove prophecy of Prophet Muhammad with the help of Bible due to its http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/ - textual problems .

Secondly,its not very clear that Deut.18:18 is speaking about Prophet Muhammad or Prophet Jesus.

Here is wonderful 80-page article by brother mailto:[email protected] - Human Hassan on this topic by the name of http://answering-christianity.com/umar_hassan/that_prophet.htm - The Hidden Truth

I hope these above information will definitely help you.

Thanks all of you.

Here are various texts from the Gospels on what they have to say and to show in support the above, ref. Deut 18:15 & 18:-

Luke 7:16

�Now fear seized them all, and they began to glorify God, saying: �A great prophet has been raised up among us [the Israelites],� and, �God [of Moses] has turned his attention to his people [the Israelites],�.. . .�

Luke 24:19

"And he said to them: �What things?� They said to him: �The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who became a prophet powerful in work and word before God and all the people;"

John 1:45

"Philip found Nathanael and said to him: �We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazareth.��

Jesus said at John 5:46

�In fact, if YOU believed Moses YOU would believe me, for that one wrote about me.�

John 6:14

"Hence when the men saw the signs he performed, they began to say: �This is for a certainty the prophet that was to come into the world.�"

ROBIN

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 26 September 2008 at 2:47am

[QUOTE=robin] robin, please tell me who is that prophet of Deut 18:18? Please tell who you think is that prophet. Do not give a long lecture. Just tell me his name please.

Jesus Christ; the Greatest Jehovah's Witness to walk the face of the Earth!
[/QUOTE

Did Jesus speak in the name of God or in the name of Jehova?? Did he say "Your God says......"??? Did he say "Jehova says...."

Where it is in the bible NT please? It should be every where in the bible in every line. Please answer my two questions above. I follow the normal KJV version of bible NT which must be at least 300 years old version, I hope.

Please do not entangle me with any long lecture. I have read the bible NT and I never saw any Jehova there.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 26 September 2008 at 5:14am

minuteman wrote:

[QUOTE=robin] robin, please tell me who is that prophet of Deut 18:18? Please tell who you think is that prophet. Do not give a long lecture. Just tell me his name please.

Jesus Christ; the Greatest Jehovah's Witness to walk the face of the Earth!
[/QUOTE

Did Jesus speak in the name of God or in the name of Jehova?? Did he say "Your God says......"??? Did he say "Jehova says...."

Please do not entangle me with any long lecture. I have read the bible NT and I never saw any Jehova there.

The reason that it seems most unusual for the name "Jehovah" to appear in the Christian Greek Scriptures is that, for centuries, it was thought that this name did not appear in the Septuagint Version (O.T. in Greek) of the Hebrew Scriptures (O.T.) used by Jesus and his apostles. But more recent discoveries definitely prove that the Tetragrammaton did appear in the Septuagint in those times. Thus Professor Howard of the University of Georgia states: "We know for a fact that Greek-speaking Jews continued to write [the Tetragrammaton] within their Greek Scriptures. Moreover, it is most unlikely that early conservative Greek-speaking Jewish Christians varied from this practice. . . . It would have been extremely unusual for them to have dismissed the Tetragram from the biblical text itself." So he concludes: "Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text. On the analogy of pre-Christian Jewish practice we can imagine that the NT text incorporated the Tetragram into its OT quotations." Professor Howard also notes that when the Tetragrammaton (the four letters for God's Name JHVH) was removed from the Septuagint it was also removed from the quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures appearing in the Christian Greek Scriptures. This change evidently took place at the beginning of the second century C.E. There is no question that the name Jehovah does belong in the Christian Greek Scriptures, as we find it in the New World Translation and others.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 September 2008 at 10:53am

robin, did Jesus speak in the name of Jehova? If he did not, as we see for many centuries, nobody knew that. Then he did not speak anything in the name of God. But he said that he does not do anything from himself. He said everything from the one who sent him. But he was a god himself. So he need not speak in the name of another God.

If Jesus did not speak in the name of God then why are you denying Muhammad who spoke all in the name of Allah. And the people who did not listen to Muhammad, God took an account from them. Punished them.

But God did not take any account from those who did not listen to Jesus. He did not even take any account from those who tried to kill Jesus.

God did not put the words in the mouth of Jesus. That is another fault. But God revealed Quran at the heart of Muhammad and practically put the words in his mouth as he was taught to recite in the name of the Lord who created.

So Jesus could not be that prophet. He was quite unlike Moses.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 September 2008 at 1:22pm

minuteman wrote:

But God did not take any account from those who did not listen to Jesus. He did not even take any account from those who tried to kill Jesus.

So Jesus could not be that prophet. He was quite unlike Moses.

JESUS SAID. HE SPOKE WHAT GOD TOLD HIM TO:-

John 7:16

Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.

John 8:28

Therefore Jesus said: "When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things.

John 12:49

because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.

N.W.T. Matthew 21:9 (Also see Matt 23:39; Mark 11:9; John 13:35; John 12:13) As for the crowds, those going ahead of him and those following kept crying out: �Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah�s name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!� is a direct quote from Psalm 118:26 "Blessed be the One coming in the name of Jehovah; We have blessed YOU people out of the house of Jehovah."

Jesus states at John 7:28-29 "Therefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: �YOU both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. 29 I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.�

In this verse from John 7:29 Jesus Christ came as a "representative" from and for Almighty God, thus as further quoted above he is representing at the order of Jehovah as was acknowledged by the Israelites when he rode into Jerusalem on a Colt as the crowds that welcomed him in the name of the God where crying out about him as fulfilling Psalm 118:26 (see above) as he was representing for his and their God and Father (John 20:17) "Jehovah". Jesus also applied the same scripture to himself when at Matthew 23:39 he said "For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, �Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah�s name!�"�

So Jesus was not representing Himself as Almighty God but came on the behalf of his Father or in his NAME, thus Jesus Christ was the Greatest Jehovah's Witness this Earth will ever see, as it states of the Israelite Nation of which Jesus was a member at Isaiah 43:10 �"YOU are my witnesses,� is the utterance of Jehovah, �even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none." Thus Jesus proved this without any doubt to those having the True faith.

The following is quote on Psalm 118:26 is taken from 'The Psalms Translated and Explained' by Joseph Addison Alexander, DD. Evangelical Press 1975 page 480:-

"Blessed he that cometh in the name of Jehovah! We bless you from the house of Jehovah. According to the accents, the construction of the first clause is, blessed, in the name of Jehovah,be he that cometh. This agrees exactly with the frequent mention of blessing in the name of Jehovah. See below, Ps. cxxix. 8, and compare Num. vi. 27, Deut. xxi. 5, 2 Sam. vi. 18. He thatcometh is commonly and not improbably supposed to have meant primarily the people or their representatives, to whom, as they approach the sacred spot, these words could hardly fail to suggest, for example that of Israel coming back to from exile, that of God coming back to his forsaken people, and at least in the most enlightened minds, that of the great Delierver, to whose coming all the rest was preparatory, to whom the name tcv or o excomenoV was afterwards given as a standing application, in allusion either to this passage or to Mal. iii. 1, or to both, and to whom this very sentence was applied by the multitude who witnessed and attended Christ triumphal entrance into the Holy City. See Matt. xxi. 9."

In light of the above we can ask a very relevant question in connection with the rendering of Matthew 21:9 in the N.I.V. and K.J.V. along with other versions of the scriptures. As they render this verse thus (in part):-

N.I.V. "... "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the hights above!"

K.J.V. " "... "Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest."-Scofield

As the N.I.V. and K.J.V. says that Jesus -"the Son of David"- "comes in the NAME of the Lord" which Lord is being spoken of and what is his name? It cannot be talking about The Lord Jesus Christ as there is another person is being refereed to, so who is this other Lord? This other unnamed person can only be the God of the Hebrews as this is a quote from Psalm 118:26 where Jehovah is the "Lord" identified by NAME in the Hebrew Bible (O.T.), thus the more accurate rendering in the N.W.T. thus "Blessed be the One coming in the name of Jehovah" as Jesus came not with his own power but with power and authority that was given to him by his God (See Matthew 28:18) to do what he did with all the important issues that involved God's relationship with humans!

Muhhamed did not come in the "NAME" of the God of Moses or Jesus as "Allah" means just "God" were as "Jehovah" is a personal "NAME" as Jesus God and showed:-

John 12:28 Jesus said

Father, glorify your name."

God replied:-

Therefore a voice came out of heaven: "I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again."

That "name" is Jehovah:-

GOD�S NAME MADE KNOWN!

ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION

[YHWH]-added

God the father Said:

Exo. 9:13, 16 �Then the LORD (Heb. YHWH) said to Moses � 16 But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.�

Rom 9:17 �For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name [YHWH] might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Ezk. 36:23 �And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD (Heb. YHWH), declares the Lord GOD (YHWH), when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.�

Ezk. 39:7 "And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD (Heb. YHWH), the Holy One in Israel.�

Mal 1:11 �For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD (Heb. YHWH) of hosts.�

Mal 1:14 �Cursed be the cheat who has a male in his flock, and vows it, and yet sacrifices to the Lord (Heb. YHWH) what is blemished. For I am a great King, says the LORD (Heb. YHWH) of hosts, and my name will be feared among the nations.�

Jesus said:-

John 17:6 "I have manifested* your name [YHWH] to the people whom you gave me out of the world. ��

*�manifest �adj. clear or obvious to the eye or mind. �v. 1 show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts etc. 2 show plainly to the eye or mind. 3 be evidence of; prove. 4 refl. (of a thing) reveal itself. 5 (of a ghost) appear. �n. cargo or passenger list. manifestation n. manifestly adv. [Latin manifestus]�-Oxford Dictionary

John 17:11-12 �� Holy Father, keep them in your name [YHWH], which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name [YHWH], which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.�

John 17:26 �I made known* to them your name [YHWH], and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

John 12:28 Father, glorify your name [YHWH]."

The Father then said. �Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it [YHWH], and I will glorify it [YHWH] again."�

�Strong's Gk. No. 2424 Iesous {ee-ay-sooce'} of Hebrew origin 03091; TDNT - 3:284,360; n pr m. AV - Jesus 972, Jesus (Joshua) 2, Jesus (Justus) 1; 975 Jesus = "Jehovah is salvation" ��

"Jehovah ... the Lord God. XVI (Tindale, Exod. vi 3, 1530). alt. of the sacred Tetragrammaton vuvh JHVH of the Hebrews, the ineffable name of the Almighty, produced by the insertion of the vowel - points repr. the vowels ' (a), o, a of Adonai as a direction to substitute this for the ineffable name (as is done by Jerome in Exod. vi 3). It is held that the orig. name was Jahve(h), Yahwe(h)."-The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology.'

Where the phrase "in the name of The LORD (Heb. YHWH. Latin JHVH)" (O.T.) appears in the King James Version (& others) of the Bible (See Ps 83:18).

O.T. N.T.

Duet 18:5; 18:7; 18:22; 21:5 Mtt 21:9; 23:39

1 Sam 17:45; 20:42 Mark 11:9; 11:10

2 Sam 6:18 Luke 13:35; 19:38

1 Kings 18:32; 22:16 John 12:13

2 Kings 2:24 Acts 8:16 (J.C.);

1 Chron 16:2; 21:19 9:29 (J); 10:48 (J);

2 Chron 18:15; 33:18 19:5 (J); 19:13 (J)

Ps 118:10; 118:11; 118:12; 19:17 (J); 21:13 (J)

118:26; 124:8; 129:8 1 Cor. 1:2 (J); 5:5 (J);

Isa 50:10 6:11 (J)

Jer 11:21; 26:9; 26:16; 26:20; Col 3:17 (J)

44:16 2 Thess 1:12 (J)

Mic 4:5: Zeph 3:12; Zec 13:3 James 5:10; 5:14

The Questions are:

1. What is "the name of the Lord" in the O.T. and then in the N.T.?

2. Why has that "name" been LEFT OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES?

3. It is in the N.T. rendered in Hebrew in many places?

E.S.V. Deut. 12:32 "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.�

E.S.V. Rev 22:18-19 �I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book (Gk. �bibiou�): if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book (Gk. �biblio�), and if anyone takes away from the words of the book (Gk.�bibliou�)of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of

Moses was a Hebrew, Muhammad was an Arab, thus quite unlike Moses; different nation different God!!

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 September 2008 at 11:49pm

robin, you have failed completely with Muslims. And same for the christians. You have wandering ideas. Look what you have posted ( and forget that extra long useless lecture):

JESUS SAID. HE SPOKE WHAT GOD TOLD HIM TO:-

John 7:16

Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. (There is no Jehova. He did not say belongs to Jehova.)

John 8:28

John 12:49

because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.

( Again, no word about Jehova from Jesus. See?)

(These are all useless posts. People are talking about Jehova, not Jesus)

See the above. Jesus is talking about the Father who sent me. He is not saying the name of God (Jehova) which is your main demand when speaking about Muhammad. But when it comes to Jesus you ignore that completely. Why?

Later you are mixed up in race business. God promised Moses a prophet of his likeness from their brethren. Their Brethren could not be the Israelis. They could only be Arabs. The words of the bible are being changed daily to suit the purpose of the church. If that prophet was to come from the Israelsi then there was no need to say from their bretheren. It would have been from themselves.

Also, it is written in bible that kingdom of God will be taken away from those people and will be given to others who will bring the fruit thereof.

But you are locked up in racial business. You cannot imagine that any message could be given to any one other than the Israelis despite their long habit of disbelief in God. Why Jesus had to come? He was an honest israeli prophet. What they did to him? That was the end of the spiritual leadership of the Jews. But you want to keep it there.

They were not fit to carry the message of God to the world. Now you have got a special religion built on just the name of God. If any will not agree to that name, you will reject them. Who told you to do that?

As far as I am concerned, you are prejudiced person and if I ha dany respect for religion then it is diminished now. Because you are not different to any other christian. Thanks for the debate though.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 7:41am

To Robin

I think Robin doesnot know that his own christian scholars likeProfessor David Benjamin http://islamicweb.com/index.asp?folder=bible - (Former Roman Catholis Bishop of the Unite Chaldean) agree that Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in Old-Testament and New-Testament.

http://islamicweb.com/index.asp?folder=bible - The Bible's Last Prophet By Professor David Benjamin

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 2:35pm

minuteman wrote:

robin, you have failed completely with Muslims. And same for the christians. You have wandering ideas. Look what you have posted ( and forget that extra long useless lecture):

JESUS SAID. HE SPOKE WHAT GOD TOLD HIM TO:-

John 7:16

Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. (There is no Jehova. He did not say belongs to Jehova.)

John 8:28

John 12:49

because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.

( Again, no word about Jehova from Jesus. See?)

(These are all useless posts. People are talking about Jehova, not Jesus)

Also, it is written in bible that kingdom of God will be taken away from those people and will be given to others who will bring the fruit thereof.

That is just what you say; the Bible says:-

Isaiah 43:10-12

"YOU are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. ¹¹ I�I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior." ¹² "I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I am God.

The following is to happen soon by the hand of Amighty God, so take note!

Ezekiel 36:23

�And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which YOU profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,� is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, �when I am sanctified among YOU before their eyes.

Ezekiel 37:28

And the nations will have to know that I, Jehovah, . .

Ezekiel 38:23

And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.�

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 11:26pm

robin, forget about Isaiah and Ezekiel and others. I am interested in Jesus versus Muhammad. You rejected Muhammad who gave all message in the name of God. And I did not see jesus doing anything even near to that. He did not speak in the name of God except once or twice and that without Jehova. But you accept Jesus as "That Propet" and you reject Muhammad on some flimsy ground.

You have no good principles. But thanks for telling us about your Jehovas Witnesses (JW) ideas. There is no justice or truth in JW beliefs.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 1:31am

minuteman wrote:

You have no good principles. But thanks for telling us about your Jehovas Witnesses (JW) ideas. There is no justice or truth in JW beliefs.

How can there be Justice and Truth in Islam (like the churchies), when muslims go to war and kill each other, and women and children.

This Jehovah's Witnesses will not do for any reason. On this count alone Jehovah's Witnesses show true faith and totaly trust in God to solve human problems!

This is what Jesus said; see Hebrew New Testament:-

Mark 12:28-29

Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: "Which commandment is first of all?" ²⁹ Jesus answered: "The first is, �Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, ³⁰ and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.�

Luke 4:8

In reply Jesus said to him: "It is written, �It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.�"

Your God does not have a "name"!

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 8:03pm

robin, you are now trying to divert the issue into muslims killing Muslims. And telling something that was said. It is not needed. The matter was "Did Jesus speak in the name of god". It is proved that he did not. You could not show a word about it. But youhad the idea of impressing us with your extra long posts. Please do not do that again. Come to the point.

You rejected Muhammad because he did not use the word Jehova. But Jesus also did not do it. So you are wrong. It is only prejudice which is working in you. No honesty.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 1:12am

minuteman wrote:

You rejected Muhammad because he did not use the word Jehova. But Jesus also did not do it. So you are wrong. It is only prejudice which is working in you. No honesty.

YOU mentioned "justice or truth" of which I see very little in Islam as I mentioned re: its wars etc.!!!

If you do not want a comment made about something you say, then do not say it!

You say you have read the NT that may be, so but it is very evident you do not believe the prophet Jesus!

JESUS SAID GOD MUST BE WORSHIPED THUS HE SPOKE IN GOD'S NAME

When tempted by the Devil to worship him, Jesus said in reply at Matthew 4:10:

N.W.T. �Then Jesus said to him: �Go away, Satan! For it is written, �It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.��

The Sacred Scriptures � Bethel Edition Matt 4:10

�Then says Yahshua to him, Get you hence, Satan: for it is written, You shall worship Yahweh your Elohim, and him only shall you serve,

�For it is written� can ONLY refer to what was �written� in the Hebrew Scriptures (O.T.) as when Jesus said what followed* the Christian Greek Scriptures (N.T.) did NOT EVEN EXIST!

*What followed? �It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.���

Jesus was quoting from Deut. 5:9 which reads:-

N.W.T. �You must not bow down to them or be led to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me;.�

Young�s Literal Translation Deut 5:9

�thou dost not bow thyself to them nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on children, and on a third generation , and on a fourth, to those hating Me.�

The Hebrew O.T. Deut 5:9 where Jesus quoted from reads:-

לא³⁸⁰⁸ תשׁתחוה⁷⁸¹² להם ולא³⁸⁰⁸ תעבדם⁵⁶⁴⁷ כי³⁵⁸⁸ אנכי⁵⁹⁵ יהוה³⁰⁶⁸ אלהיך⁴³⁰ אל⁴¹⁰ קנא⁷⁰⁶⁷ פקד⁶⁴⁸⁵ עון⁵⁷⁷¹ אבות¹ על⁵⁹²¹ בנים¹¹²¹ ועל⁵⁹²¹ שׁלשׁים⁸⁰²⁹ ועל⁵⁹²¹ רבעים⁷²⁵⁶ לשׂנאי׃⁸¹³⁰

And also from Deut. 10:20

N.W.T �Jehovah your God you should fear. Him you should serve, and to him you should cling, and by his name you should make sworn statements.

Young�s Literal Translation Deut 10:20

�Jehovah thy God thou dost fear, Him thou dost serve, and to Him thou dost cleave, and by His name thou dost swear.�

Hebrew O.T. at Deut. 10:20

את⁸⁵³ יהוה³⁰⁶⁸ אלהיך⁴³⁰ תירא³³⁷² אתו⁸⁵³ תעבד⁵⁶⁴⁷ ובו תדבק¹⁶⁹² ובשׁמו⁸⁰³⁴ תשׁבע׃⁷⁶⁵⁰

Matt 4:10 Hebrew N.T. reads �Jehovah.�

ויאמר אליו ישוע סור ממני השטן כי כתוב ליהוה אלהיך תשתחוה ואותו לבדו תעבד׃

Strong�s Hebrew Dictionary No.3069 vuvh Yehovah, yeh-ho-vee�; from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God :- Jehovah, the Lord. Comp. 3050, 3060."

It is not a case of putting words into Jesus mouth, as restoring what was there in the first place, because Jesus was reading from the O.T.! He has been misquoted by various translators and copyists etc..

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 6:06am

Some of the differances that I see between Jesus and Mohammad.

Jesus concerned about the human soul and the afterlife, what is in your heart and not outward rituals, turn the other cheek. Spread His teachings through love.

Mohammad seems to be about rituals, concerns of this life. Rights of Muslims versus rights of non-muslims. Spread his teachings through conquering.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 11:43pm

From robin:

JESUS SAID. HE SPOKE WHAT GOD TOLD HIM TO:-

Muhammad did the same. He said he spoke what God told him to speak. So what is the difference in that? Now youhave purposefully inserted jehova in mathew and other parts of NT. We had the NT for long time. We never saw any Jehova in that.

You are blaming Muhammad that he did not speak with the word Jehova. I said Jesus also did not do it.If I ask the Roman Catholic and the Protestants whether Jesus spoke in the name of Jehova, they will deny it. What do you say robin?

Shall we then believe you? Surely not.

Actually, your elders had some flisy excuse about the name of God and they built a whole tower on the name of God and they took something fromhere and something from there, differing with the mainline christians, they built a new religion which is not proved by any means.

If youreject Muhammad for any reasontehn please see that same problem is not with Jesus. If it is there then do not reject Muhammad on that basis.

Then do not divert the topic. We are discussing the word Jehova. So we betetr not go into wars and killings yet. Let us deal with your Jehova, the foundation stone of your tower.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 12:56am

minuteman wrote:

From robin:

JESUS SAID. HE SPOKE WHAT GOD TOLD HIM TO:-

Shall we then believe you? Surely not.

If youreject Muhammad for any reasontehn please see that same problem is not with Jesus. If it is there then do not reject Muhammad on that basis.

Then do not divert the topic. We are discussing the word Jehova. So we betetr not go into wars and killings yet. Let us deal with your Jehova, the foundation stone of your tower.

Get hold of a copy if the N.T. in Hebrew and you will see "JHVH" (Latinised, as in English) all the way though it!

Also:-

"Archaeologists have discovered papyrus fragments of works which were later included in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible - canon of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament - New Testament dating as far back as the middle of the second century. Of all 5,000 extant manuscripts, none contains the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet - Hebrew יהוה (the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton - Tetragrammaton ), the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet - Paleo-Hebrew ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phoenician_he.png - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phoenician_waw.png - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phoenician_he.png - - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Phoenician_yodh.png - - ), or Greek transliterations (for example: ιαω, ιαουε, ΠΙΠΙ) of the Hebrew name (יהוה).^{[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed - citation needed ]}

One of the most ancient fragments, the papyrus codex designated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri - Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P46 - P46 , is dated prior to AD 200 and contains nine of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_Paul - Apostle Paul 's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Epistles - letters . In the Chester Beatty Papyri, we find ΚC and sometimes ΘC with a horizontal bar above them in citations of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible - Hebrew Bible where the Tetragrammaton occurs in the Hebrew text. These are abbreviations for kyrios (κύριος "lord") and theos (θεός "God") normally known as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra - nomina sacra ("sacred names"). The abbreviations may not have been part of the autographs but may have been substituted as a shorthand some time later. An alternative thesis has been advanced that YHWH would have been present in NT autographs only to be substituted by the nomina sacra.

An article by George Howard in the March 1978 issue of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Archaeology_Review - Biblical Archaeology Review set forth this thesis that YHWH appeared in the New Testament and that "the removal of the Tetragrammaton from the New Testament and its replacement with the surrogates kyrios and theos blurred the original distinction between the Lord God and the Lord Christ."^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament#cite_note-0 - [1]} His position was included in his article in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_Bible_Dictionary - Anchor Bible Dictionary , where he stated: "There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the OT quotations in the NT when the NT documents were first penned."^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament#cite_note-1 - [2]}

This thesis has not found wide acceptance, and Howard has qualified it: "my theory about the Tetragrammaton is just that, a theory. Some of my colleagues disagree with me (for example Albert Pietersma). Theories like mine are important to be set forth so that others can investigate their probability and implications. Until they are proven (and mine has not been proven) they should not be used as a surety for belief."-FROM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 10:13pm

We are concerned with the bible NT KIng James Version which has been in circulation for a long long time. That work was done by reliable workers who translated and compiled the version from some good sources.

There had been no Jehova and even now, may not be there in the NT. How old is your religion, the towers, JW's? Since when you discovered and adopted these things? Before that Jesus was not knowing Jehova.

To build a religion on the name of God only is not necessary. But everything is possible nowadays.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 11:49pm

minuteman wrote:

To build a religion on the name of God only is not necessary. But everything is possible nowadays.

The Hebrew Bible (O.T.) has been in circulation since 1513 B.C. (it's first 5 books & Job by Moses) and it has Jehovah's ("YHWH") name in it thousands of times, and THAT IS THE BIBLE JESUS CHRIST USED, NOT THE KING JAMES VERSION as it did not exist in his day, that is what I go by.

The King .James Version of 1611 A.D. is not a very accurate transaltion!!!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 10:59am

Robin writes:

Moses was a Hebrew, Muhammad was an Arab, thus quite unlike Moses; different nation different God!!

[/QUOTE]

Robin,

what make you think different God. You asssume that different nations have different God?

I thought you have grown out of that thinking since it has been a while that you have been participating on this forum.

Moses and Mohammed (pbut) worshipped same God. In fact there isn't another God, other than the One who made me, you, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed (pbut) and all that there is.

Let me quote to reassure you from the beautiful words of the Final Testament from God Almighty:

3:84 Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."

I am not asking you to change the way you beleive, as you decide on your own destiny, I am asking you to change your perception of how a Muslim believe. We worship and serve none other than the One who is the Only One to be Worshipped, the Creator, to whom we all must return after our death for accountability.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 10 October 2008 at 12:01pm

honeto wrote:

Robin writes:

Moses was a Hebrew, Muhammad was an Arab, thus quite unlike Moses; different nation different God!!

Robin,

what make you think different God. You asssume that different nations have different God?

I thought you have grown out of that thinking since it has been a while that you have been participating on this forum.

Moses and Mohammed (pbut) worshipped same God. In fact there isn't another God, other than the One who made me, you, Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed (pbut) and all that there is.

Let me quote to reassure you from the beautiful words of the Final Testament from God Almighty:

Hasan

[/QUOTE]

But your God is not the God of Moses who is called Jehovah ("YHWH" in the oldest know texts of the Bible, many years before the K.J.V. ), as the Ishmaelites became enemies of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses, so they must have a differant God than the God of Moses:-

The descendants of Ishmael, the Ishmaelites, are numbered among the enemies of God (Allah) because as a nation the turned against God (Allah) and his people the Israelites:-

Psalm 83:1-9

O God, let there be no silence on your part; Do not keep speechless, and do not stay quiet, O Divine One.

² For, look! your very enemies are in an uproar; And the very ones intensely hating you have raised [their] head.

³ Against your people they cunningly carry on their confidential talk; And they conspire against your concealed ones.

⁴ They have said: "Come and let us efface them from being a nation, That the name of Israel may be remembered no more."

⁵ For with the heart they have unitedly exchanged counsel; Against you they proceeded to conclude even a covenant,

⁶ The tents of Edom and the ISHMAELITES, Moab and the Hagrites,

⁷ Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia together with the inhabitants of Tyre.

⁸ Also, Assyria itself has become joined with them; They have become an arm to the sons of Lot.

⁹ Do to them as to Midian, as to Sisera, As to Jabin at the torrent valley of Kishon*. ....

¹⁶ Fill their faces with dishonor, That people may search for your name, O Jehovah.

¹⁷ O may they be ashamed and be disturbed for all times, And may they become abashed and perish;

¹⁸ That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.

*Which is to destroy them!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 6:02pm

Robin,

your wrote:

"But your God is not the God of Moses who is called Jehovah ("YHWH" in the oldest know texts of the Bible, many years before the K.J.V. ), as the Ishmaelites became enemies of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses, so they must have a differant God than the God of Moses:-"

I told you and gave you a proof, of my reasoning that I worship the Only God there is, the God of Adam, Lot, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).

The book you use as your referance is borrowed from those who do not call themselves as you imply, nor they agree with your argument. In fact you seem to to have only one point upon which your religion circulate, what is the name of God. And so far you base that argumanet on a proven faulty source.

Why then your argument has more weight when its source is not even reliable and constantly inconsistant, hello.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 18 October 2008 at 8:47am

honeto wrote:

Robin,

your wrote:

I told you and gave you a proof, of my reasoning that I worship the Only God there is, the God of Adam, Lot, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).

Why then your argument has more weight when its source is not even reliable and constantly inconsistant, hello.

Hasan

If you reject the Bible, you reject the God of the Bible, then the God of the Bible will reject you!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 October 2008 at 6:33pm

robin wrote:

honeto wrote:

Robin,

your wrote:

I told you and gave you a proof, of my reasoning that I worship the Only God there is, the God of Adam, Lot, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).

Why then your argument has more weight when its source is not even reliable and constantly inconsistant, hello.

Hasan

If you reject the Bible, you reject the God of the Bible, then the God of the Bible will reject you!

Robin,

remember, Bible is a newer compilation of several revelations from God to several prophets in different times.

Now as "the Bible" it says itself, if anyone adds a word to it makes the whole of it void. In simple Englsih that means that if we find one inconsistancy that is enough proof that its manipulated because until it was God's pure word, it would not have any inconsistancy in it, period.

Thus it is proved to be a manipulated version of God's word, and cannot be trusted as authentic.

Remember, its the pagans who believe in god of this and that, our gods and their gods and so on.

We do not believe as the Pagans believe or as you do, that there are different gods.

One God, the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, and Mohammed (pbut).

Here are a few reasons that I believe the Bible is the manipulted (by man)word of God:

Genesis 6:7 ..........for I am grieved that I have made them."

I believe God is the Only One that don't grieve about anything, God is above All.

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

I believe that to be untrue, and also it contradicts several other sayings about forgiveness in the Bible.

1 Samuel 18:10 The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did.

I think this above verse is the worse I have seen, yeah, reading this I do believe, your following of this book do make you worship a different god!

May the Master of this universe have Mercy on you and Guide you.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 8:57am