Muslim Woman Pleads Guilty
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Category: Culture & Community
Forum Name: Groups : Women (Sisters)
Forum Description: Groups : Women (Sisters)
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12463
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Topic: Muslim Woman Pleads Guilty
Posted By: abuayisha
Subject: Muslim Woman Pleads Guilty
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 6:34pm
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(AP) A woman pleaded guilty Friday to third-degree murder for killing her bigamist husband in August, hours before he was to fly to Morocco to visit his new, second wife. Myra Morton, 48, resented the marriage and her husband's plans to have children with the younger woman. She shot her spouse of 25 years, Jereleigh Morton, twice in the head while he slept, and blamed the crime on an intruder. She faces about five to 20 years in prison. Defense lawyers acknowledge the crime was intentional, but say it stemmed from the damaged psyche of a humiliated, aging woman still depressed over the death of a teenage child years earlier. "The idea that this man was now going to marry another woman, and provide her with money that came from a dead child's lawsuit recovery, was too much to bear," lawyer Brian McMonagle said. http://video.nbc10.com/player/?id=244898 - http://video.nbc10.com/player/?id=244898 |
Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 7:05pm
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Quite obvious she was not Muslim at all if she had to go take this man's life in his sleep. psychological is a common distress used by defense attorneys to lessen the severity of the sentence. In my opinion she deserves the maximum sentence of 20 years regardless of her age. To put one bullet in a persons head is enough to wrrant at least manslaughter if the defense team wants to argue psychological distress but two? This implies intent to kill and the jurors will not see remorse. You justdon't put two in someone's head and say you are psychologically distressed. There is deliberation in pulling the trigger especially if your target is sleep. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 14 May 2008 at 7:20am
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ya.. you know we all make choices.. killing a person is not a good response except in self-defense.
And to blame on intruder.. I do tink that some people are really psychologically a mess.. but not sure in this case. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: rosie
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 9:33pm
| Israfil, I don't believe we are able to make judgements on others in regard to their faith. We are all human and are not suitable to make judgements on others. Only Allah knows who among us are true Muslims and who is not. Her actions were not Islamic, but that does not make her not a Muslim. We all make mistakes. We all make actions that do not follow the teachings of Islam. That is what makes us human. We should all strive not to make such harsh judgements. Instead, we should make dua for her as well as the families affected by her actions. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 10:14pm
| I'm sorry Rosie. But we ALL make judgements. From clothing to people we all do it. Simply saying we shouldn't or committing ourselves to not do it is only self-denial. I've been called non-muslim here many times so, its not a phenomena. With regards to this women I'm sorry if you put two bullets in your sleeping husbands head I think you cease to believe in what God wrote and what Muhammad stood for. Killing a life is an ultimate (if not the most) ultimate sin. As far as I'm concerned she was not under attack nor prompted. Like I said legally in the eyes of the court its hard to argure insanity when you fire two rounds in a sleeping persons head. This part of the body is vital as a head shot will instantaneously kill you. In this case I don't think she was striving to be anything except a murderer. |
Posted By: rosie
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 10:28pm
| Isafril, I realize we all make judgements. I just don't believe those judgements should be voiced against another Mulsim's faith. Justifying call some one a non-Muslim by stating that you have been called a non-Muslim is not right. I am not saying what she did was right. I believe that she was completely wrong. She is being punished for what she did. I just don't believe that anyone but Allah has the right to pass judgement on one's faith. |
Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 11:02pm
| Actually, it is fairly common for people to shoot more than once. You rarely see a case where anyone shoots only once. How many times have you seen where police put 40 bullets into one person? It has been proven through studies that once a person starts shooting they fail to realize what they are doing by shooting more. I am actually suprised she didn't shoot more and believe that is better evidence that she was shooting deliberately. She is guilty regardless of how many times she shot him, but what her state of mind was at the time is not for me to say, only God knows that for sure. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 10:25pm
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Salams_Wife, as a police officer myself I'd want to see your evidence that "it is fairly common people shoot more than once." Using the cop example is not a defense for your statement. How cops use lethal force is different from a citizen. Depending on the circumstances of deadly force, many citizens who use it properly may shoot multiple times but this depends on the circumstances.
But regarding the woman, in the court of law and in my experience it is hard for the defense to argue insanity as this argument leaves without a doubt the defendant was without rational mind. Shooting someone multiple times while arguing insanity is difficult because there is deliberation in pulling the trigger (according to the court of law). Also, in the circumstance the killing was done (such as the man sleeping) she "knew" shooting him during his sleep is a 'perfect' time to end his life because of vulnerability. But yeah, I'd like you to show this proof of your statement as I have experienced different.
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Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 10:31pm
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I saw it on a video when I was taking shooting classes. Unfortunately that was years ago so I don't know where the video came from. I will see if I can't find the evidence for you. How often in your line of work do you see a person only shot once. I certainly have heard too many cases. I could give you a thousand news stories where the person was shot numerous times, but once, that is harder to do. As for whether she was sane or not, I don't recall saying she was one way or another. I don't know where you got that I said she wasn't sane. I just made a point about the two shots. I clearly stated it wasn't for me to say what her state of mind was. Please don't put words in my mouth.
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 10:33pm
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People can kill someone and be a Muslim. And ultimately that is up to Allah to judge. And people can sin and be of that faith.
My Allah have mercy on all of us.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 10:35pm
| Anecdotal statements does not account for truth. I'm not saying what your saying is not entirely false, I'm merely saying it is not accurate. In my experiences under duress, thre have been many cases where I've found the victim to have shot only once (there was even one lady who killed the intruder with one single shot from her 9mm semiauto). Of course there are cases where if under attack, the victim shoots multiple times (although the shots are inaccurate due to heavy fear). |
Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 10:39pm
| So what you are saying is the vast majority of murders are done with only one round? I just want to clarify. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 12:52am
| No I'm saying it depends on the situation. |
Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 02 June 2008 at 10:41pm
Mystical says "GOOD FOR HER!!" Am I condoning her killing her husband?...of course not but I can understand it 'cause put in the same situation what woman wouldnt want to KILL her disrespectful husband? Now that she is old and grey and no doubt he's middle aged wanting a younger woman she is discarded to the side without any consideration for the 25yrs of faithful service she has rendered to her husband. You betcha that can drive a woman temporarily insane. May Allah judge her mercifully.
Muslim men have killed their daughters/cousins/wives (honor killings) for much less and gotten away with it.
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abuayisha wrote:Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 June 2008 at 1:14am
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She was neither old nor grey. I saw the photos of her when the story was first published.
I can understand her agony at not wanting another woman to benefit from her dead child's blood money, but she could have easily divorced him. If she had stated polygamy as the reason for divorce she propbably could have gotten a large portion of the money and she'd be sitting pretty right now instead of in jail.
Islam does not allow honor killings and the practice is common among many cultures and religions, including Christians in Arab and Asian cultures. It is cultural, not religious. A surprising number of men are the victims of honor killings also. They usually just don't make the headlines. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 03 June 2008 at 1:47am
In her husband eye she was "old and grey". As a wife of 25yrs he had no respect for her as a wife. Unless you have lived in her shoes how do you know she would be sitting pretty instead of in jail. Could be she is happier with her husband dead and she in jail then having to tolerate looking at her husband making a fool of her in front of a younger woman. I see polygamy as legalised adultery which is granted to men only which is not only sexist but very demeaning to the non-consensual wife.
"A surprising number of men are victims of honor killing too"
I'm not surprised as the penalty of leaving Islam is death. Care to elaborate?
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 June 2008 at 8:04am
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not aure wht is good for her.. she is in prison... going to live a long time there.. or an insane asylum..
nothing good about whole situation.. more lives are destroyed ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 June 2008 at 8:46am
Ameen!
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 June 2008 at 10:21am
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"I'm not surprised as the penalty of leaving Islam is death. Care to elaborate?"
This subject has been broached here numerous times before. There is nothing in Islam that adjucates death for apostates. You can find the previous threads if you would like to read the posts. Even if Islam did call for such deaths, they would not be considered honor killings.
Many anti-islamic websites use the actions of some Muslims as tenets of Islam without ever really studying Islam. Unfortunately many people also make this mistake. It is a sword that can cut both ways as it is just as easy to judge all Christians by the actions of a few without truly studying Christianity.
For instance: why would an Evangelical preacher call for the death of a head of state. One of the tenets of Christianity must be assassination of those leaders you do not agree with. Care to elaborate? ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 June 2008 at 6:07pm
| Well obviously Mystical you being a woman and being married can "understand her situation" as a male and knows law I cannot understand why she would kill another human being. Whether this were to be a man or woman my opinion is unchanged. She deserves to rot in jail. I would say the same if this was a male. There are other ways of handling a situation than taking a life. your previous comment denotes some moral justification. Just because she is a woman and has been in a depressing situation and because her husband decides to move on does not give her any moral right. Even if your comments didn't imply she has a right, still you seem to find some underlined justification (See comment: Mystical says "GOOD FOR HER!!" Am I condoning her killing her husband?...of course not but I can understand it 'cause put in the same situation what woman wouldnt want to KILL her disrespectful husband?) I wonder what kind of Christian, or whatever you are, are you? |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 9:20am
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And another point, 54% of people cheat on their spouses, if they all killed each other... It is another level to be angry, sad, hurt etc. It is another to kill another person. some people are unhinged mentally, but many are not.
Maybe needed better impulse control... ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 8:49pm
I'm not saying this is a good situation it's a very tragic situation for all concerned. In my opinion this woman does not deserve prison she deserves help. She is not a danger to society but a victim herself. Through no fault of her own she found herself in unbearable situation due in part to the actions of her husband. She lost a child. Her husband wants to remarry. The monetary compensation (which in no way compensates for losing a child!) they receive for the accident re their child is spent on acquiring a new wife for the husband. How can one NOT have empathy for the wife?
It's not right what she did but it is very understandable. Put yourself in her shoes, what if she was your mother? This woman needs compassion. She is not a murderer. Many in such similar situation will be found not guilty due to insanity. She is punished enough knowing she killed her husband and father to her children. If she doesnt have family support outside she would probably prefer prison.
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 9:30pm
Hi there Shasta'sAunt:
I'm Catholic and admittedly I know very little about Islam. However I have read the arguments to and against the killing of apostates in other forums and there is no denying that many Muslims believe this is because of certain verses in the Quran. Sorry can't give you quotes off the top of my head but it's easy to retrieve them. Many Muslim who leave Islam fear disclosing their apostasy because of this belief...that they will be killed for it becuase the Quran demands it.
There is also many ex-Muslim sites which are anti-Islam and their testimony cannot be rejected as anti-Muslim. They have been there themself and were believers in Islam. You cannot dismiss their fear of disclosing their apostasy as not understanding Islam.
I don't know who you are refering to here. Still your argument is pretty lame here and I think you know that.
dear Shasta'sAunt, I think maybe I offended you it was not intentional. Please do not take my comments personally. Peace.
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 9:51pm
A male should also have no problem "understanding her situation" you just need a little compassion and have the ability to place yourself her shoes.
People make fatal mistakes what is so hard to understand? The law is one thin but having having the ability to empathise with her is a personal judgement which obviously you don't.
I am not justifying what she did...it is wrong to kill... but their are degrees of culpability in my view. I can understand that this is some-thing anyone can fall victim of and that if I was in her situation I can't say with utmost cetainty that I too wouldnt react that way. I believe she has a good case to rightfully plead not guilty due to temporary insanity. She doesnt deserve to rot in jail. What if she was your mother, your sister, or even your grandmother...would you feel any differently?...Or simply dismiss her as a murderer?
Mate. you don't know me and you are entitled to judge me according to what I state in writing. I can assure you however I'm a pussycat
 and I do not condone killing unless in self defence. But that's another topic altogether.Peace
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 10:29pm
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"I'm not surprised as the penalty of leaving Islam is death. Care to elaborate?"
Mystical, that is not what Shasta's Aunt talked about nor is it about the topic, you have misunderstood her.
Yes a few threads are around about apostacy, but I know for sure that the 4 schools condone it.
That's all I'm saying here as it is not the topic or issue  -------------  ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 10:37pm
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I think the woman was very badly jealous. Usually jealously of some woman (and men) make them to commit murder.
Nearly all women have insecurities and jealously that make them do negative things and said, few of them commit murder.
Sometimes the statement if if i can't have you them no one will.
It's all sad. but if the woman is pleasing guilty maybe she is aware she was in the wrong, one that cost her her husband and her life if she spends time in prison.
Maybe some anger and hurt from her son never healed, i don't think losing a child you recover completely, - maybe have played something. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 5:00am
I'm cool with that. My intention was not to introduce another topic. I was responding to a comment by Sharsta'sAunt. She infered that this woman killing her husband was honor killing by stating that many men, surprisingly were victims of honor killings. Then blames it on cultural beliefs denying the religious input. In my opinion honor killings are barbaric and senseless and shows a complete lack of trust in God. It is not realistic to claim it is cultural if it is taught in the Quran.
Angel you say 4 schools condone it, pls clarify. Are you saying the 4 schools condone death as the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
However, I got your point about staying on topic , appreciate the gentle reminder |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 6:23am
No, I did not infer that this was an honor killing in any way. I merely responded to your statement:
"Mystical says "GOOD FOR HER!!" Am I condoning her killing her husband?...of course not but I can understand it 'cause put in the same situation what woman wouldnt want to KILL her disrespectful husband? Now that she is old and grey and no doubt he's middle aged wanting a younger woman she is discarded to the side without any consideration for the 25yrs of faithful service she has rendered to her husband. You betcha that can drive a woman temporarily insane. May Allah judge her mercifully.
Muslim men have killed their daughters/cousins/wives (honor killings) for much less and gotten away with it." To which I responded:
"She was neither old nor grey. I saw the photos of her when the story was first published.
I can understand her agony at not wanting another woman to benefit from her dead child's blood money, but she could have easily divorced him. If she had stated polygamy as the reason for divorce she propbably could have gotten a large portion of the money and she'd be sitting pretty right now instead of in jail.
Islam does not allow honor killings and the practice is common among many cultures and religions, including Christians in Arab and Asian cultures. It is cultural, not religious. A surprising number of men are the victims of honor killings also. They usually just don't make the headlines."
How you can get that I am inferring that this is an honor killing from what I posted I have no idea. I also think that you need to post the Ayats of The Quran that order honor killings.
This website has stories of men and women who have been the victims of honor killing.
http://stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&page=3 - http://stophonourkillings.com/?name=News&page=3
From Amnesty International, who actually track and study Honor Killings:
"Though such crimes are widely known to be under-reported, the U.N. Population Fund estimates that more than 5,000 women are killed for reasons of honor every year. These murders take place in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Lebanon, Egypt, the West Bank, and Gaza, as well as Jordan, according to published reports. Equality Now, an international women's human rights group, reports that honor killings also occur in countries as diverse as Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, Uganda, and the United Kingdom.
The tradition underlying honor killing defines a woman's chastity as her family's property. It �comes from our ancient tribal days, from the Hammurabi and Assyrian tribes of 1200 B.C.,� Khouri explains. (In Pakistan, it is said to be a Baloch and Pashtun tribal custom). �This practice predates Islam and Christianity. Christian women are being killed this way, too.� " (Amnesty International) I suppose these Christians who are killing their wives and daughters are doing so because it's taught in the Bible? Maybe after you show me the passages in The Quran that teach honor killing you can show me the passages in The Bible that teach honor killings. Then you can show me the tenets in the Hindu religion that orders honor killings. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 8:07am
I believe its not in the quran. Its culture and tribal. The issue of honour killings is a well know topic and it is also known its not religious, it is mixed in as if it looks like a religious thing but not. It happens to various people. Some people in the ME are quite cultural and end up mixing religion with it.
If you do a search of the forum I'm sure you will find it
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 12:02pm
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Mystical :
Honour-Killings are NO WHERE in the Qur'an OR the Hadith. Its a cultural practise, which is concentrated in a select few countries. . . and there too BOTH muslims and non-muslims practise it. Unlike what the media portrays, it is NOT prevalent in the entire muslim world. I repeat, in a select few countries like Jordan etc.
Secondly, yes Men are ALSO a target of Honour-Killings. And Shasta's Aunt is right, they dont make it to the headlines bcz it isnt a sensational story. . .non-muslims are more likely to jump out of thier seats when they hear that a young girl was killed by "dis-honoured" father rather than a man. What happens is that the perpetrators kill BOTH the man & woman involved in the illicit affair. Not just the girl.
Ofcourse, just bcz the man is also killed doesnt make that right! I was merely stating a fact. Its an evil, un-islamic practise.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 12:05pm
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A male should also have no problem "understanding her situation" you just need a little compassion and have the ability to place yourself her shoes.
I have compassion for those who suffer from mental defects or other faulty cognitive behaviors as well as those who commit mistakes out of anger. HOWEVER! her actions were premeditated. She bought a gun. She knew when to kill him (e.g. while sleep). She fired two shots. It takes deliberation to pull a trigger.
People make fatal mistakes what is so hard to understand? The law is one thin but having having the ability to empathise with her is a personal judgement which obviously you don't.
Her husband made a decision which women sympathizing with this soon-to-be-jailed woman, abhorrent. I sympathize with her on the basis on what she felt as far as the actions of her husband.
I am not justifying what she did...it is wrong to kill... but their are degrees of culpability in my view. I can understand that this is some-thing anyone can fall victim of and that if I was in her situation I can't say with utmost cetainty that I too wouldnt react that way. I believe she has a good case to rightfully plead not guilty due to temporary insanity. She doesnt deserve to rot in jail. What if she was your mother, your sister, or even your grandmother...would you feel any differently?...Or simply dismiss her as a murderer?
Her only shot is to plead temporary insanity. However she is not a victim. She is a suspect. She is not a victim just because her husband is seeing another woman and she becomes hurt from that. She killed him.
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Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 12:49pm
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It is like many other cases of someone feeling "dissed." We all have choices to make.
The only aspect that I could see is that she was angry. Angry at him for some reaon. Part of it maybe he, after years, is ready to move on with life. He could fivorce her and just -remarry, but he decided not to that.
The woman could have chosen to divorce him and sue for the money.
This story only made the news cause he wanted a co-wife. Sensational. He could have divorced her or cheated on her and well.. would not have been much of a news story, even if she had shot him. Its the co-wife deal.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 1:14pm
What if she was your mother, sister or grandmother would you still judge her a "suspect" and wish her to rot in jail?
So in your opinion killing is killing and all killing is wrong? What if a husband finds his wife in bed with another man and kills her in a fit of jealousy and anger would you say this type of killing is justified? Or should he wait and tell others so they can all all have the pleasure of stoning her to death?
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 2:55pm
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What if she was your mother, sister or grandmother would you still judge her a "suspect" and wish her to rot in jail? \
This is a subjective question. Of course if this were one of my family members I'd feel upset because of my bias towards my relatives because, this is a natural feeling.
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Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 4:36pm
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Did anyone ever see the video for the song "Independence Day" by Martina McBride? What that woman did was worse, but you could see her husband drove her to it. She had other options, but she chose not to take them. Truly sad to chose death over life, but some do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYENO6r5vVo&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYENO6r5vVo&feature=related |
Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 9:20pm
It is not justified.
------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 9:38pm
oops...my mistake...SORRY!!
It is a fact that the majority who practice honor killing is predominantly from and in Muslim countries. Your own quote above attests to this. You can't get away from this fact. As Islam does not speak out AGAINST this many in their own Muslim country do so with impunity. It is not isolated cases it is a worldwide phenomenon.
BUT this is off topic remember.. |
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 9:48pm
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First off honor killing is not the topic as you Mystikal rightfully said, this is getting off-topic. Second, I didn't address what Angel pointed out already. If a wife commits infidelity and her husband happens to walk in, and happens to be watching this episode, he is not justified in killing his wife even if he is a witness to her transgression. . I wouldn't even say he is justified in kicking the crap out of his wife and the guy but many men do it and we arrest them for it even if in the beginning they were "victims" of marital transgression. A clear fact here: I sympathize with pain not with murder two distinct differences here. Infidelity or someone's spouse spending their dead child's money on another person are no means to take life.
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 9:57pm
This question was put to Israfil which HE chose to ignore and I believe he chose to ignore it because he would justify it. But because it's a woman he chooses to condemn her outright as if it was a simple case of murder.
I still stand by what I said. The woman who killed her husband deserves compassion and understanding as a man would need understanding and compassion if he was in the same situation. However this is not a situation a man will find himself in as Muslim women can marry only one.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:01pm
Um, Mystikal did you see what I wrote?
I said: If a wife commits infidelity and her husband happens to walk in, and happens to be watching this episode, he is not justified in killing his wife even if he is a witness to her transgression.
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:19pm
What are you saying, because it happens more there that it must be islamic? Haven't we told you that its a tribal thing and not religious and that it happens to others who are not muslim. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:31pm
If it was a "tribal thing" it would also then Christian nations would also be infested just as much as Muslim nations are with senseless honor killings. However this is OFF TOPIC and this topic here is more a crime of passion rather than honor killing.
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:33pm
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go to the thread I think Shanta's Aunt created in general. ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:50pm
Your first response ignored it and no I hadnt seen your second response before I posted up again with my comment....SORRY. So you reckon in this analogy I presented you the husband should "rot in jail" for it? We both agree killing is not justified in either case but I maintain it is not murder (unless as you say it was premeditated...I had not read that it was but even so) it was a crime of passion that one can sympathise with.
But you are correct I probably went to far in saying "GOOD FOR HER!" but it's a woman thing sympathising with another woman's situation. If that was my husband you betcha I would want to kill him but I doubt though I would have the guts to do it.
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 12:53am
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Mystical:
I can see that you are one of those people who believe what they want to believe no matter what evidence to the contrary is given. It must be comforting to you to be so secure in your own narrow vision of the world, however, other people might find this offensive since it comes across as very accusative and insulting.
Despite the denials from Muslims and non-Muslims alike on this board, along with postings with links to credible sources that state to the contrary you continue on, even going so far as to condone crimes of passion: "I had not read that it was but even so) it was a crime of passion that one can sympathise with." which are in fact honor killings as they are known in the west.
This speaks volumes to me, as I am sure to others reading your posts, about your intentions. Most non-Muslims come here to actually learn about Islam, some come for other more notorious reasons. Such a shame. However, this is an Islamic discussion forum and I am sure that whatever your religious beliefs and/or cultural leanings, it is still probably considered very rude within your circle to visit someone's home with the sole purpose of insulting them.
------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 6:51am
Refer to Honour Killings in India. India is predominantly a Non-Muslim state. . . and you will find what are called "Stove-Killings" there. Where the Mother-in-law . . .or the In-Laws incl. Husband KILL the bride if she does not bring a big enough dowry with her. Which is ALSO done in the name of honour, because if the family's daughter in law brings a large dowry, it brings honour to the family.
The daughter-in-law is sometimes also killed if she cannot give birth to a Male Heir (even though if its anyones fault, it is the Father's, since he couldnt produce a Y-chromosome.) Which again is in the name of honour.
A lot of times, (again in India , where the pre-dominant religion is Hinduism) the newly born DAUGHER is either Killed. . . or more than often aoborted nowadays . . .because daughters bring dishonour to them. Again an honour-killing. Which is why in India, the male to female ratio is more because of this practise.
You can EASILY find all this info online. Should I be blaming the HINDU RELIGION for acts committed by ppl who give precedance to culture? and thier twisted interpretations of Honour?
ENGLAND: Not so long ago . . .Men would fight duels to 'defend' thier honour if an affair/adultery took place. ATLEAST one death was inevitable during these duels. . . this again was in the name of honour. Just because the 'victim' was a male doesnt mean its not an honour-killing. Although this was against the english law, these duels still took place, and were rampant. Despite being illegal. Niether the religion nor law condoned it.
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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 6:57am
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there are also a number of honour killings in the UK each year.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonor_2.shtml - http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/honourcrimes/crimesofhonor_2.shtml
------------- some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 7:14am
No "Honour Killings" as such existed at the time of the Prophet, which is why there are no specific verses which condemn it using those words.
There ARE however lots of verses & ahadith that talk about taking a person's life (both male & female) and what a big sin it is. There are also verses which talk SPECIFICALLY about female genocide.
Chapter 81:
AT-TAKWIR (THE OVERTHROWING, THE ROLLING) Verse 8:
. . . ." When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what crime she was killed;" . . .
Chapter 5, verse 32:
"if anyone slays a human beingunless it be for murder or for spreading corruption on earth-it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind"
The above verse refers to men, women, children, muslims/non-muslims alike.
There are also numerous ahadith which talk about the sin of murders, as well as specifically of female genocide.
So don't say that Islam does not speak out against Honour-Killings.
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Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 8:27pm
Shasta's Aunt, I have to apologize I kept calling you Shanta's Aunt  ------------- ~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 2:19pm
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Hey dudettes you seem to be taking my comments re honor killings rather personally. I understand of course how my opinion can be offensive to you as a Muslim. Who wants to claim their religion inspires such barbaric actions? However for you to try and claim this as a non-Muslim problem is beyond laughable. You forget girls anyone can google "honor killings" and see for themself that the majority of these types of killings are practised by Muslims NOT non-Muslims like you are implying. If Islam is a way of life and this problem is a predominantly Muslim phenomenon especially amongst Arab nations then it is the Arab culture that spurns such loathsome behaviour. However Arab culture is ingrained into Islam so there is no getting away from the fact that those who have been brought to answer for their crimes use the Quran and Islam to defend their actions.....as do the Muslim terrorists who plague this earth, it is their religion that inspires them not their culture. If it is culture tell me which culture places family honor over that of an idividuals life? Honor is at the very core of Arab culture I would say. Islam on the surface does not condone honor killings yet many who commit are given such light sentences that their is never is justice for the victim. The horror of such crimes is that the whole family usually gets invovled plans and execute this dispicable crime.
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Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 6:14pm
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Mystikal if I may, just because the demographics of this type of act (e.g. honor killings) happens to be among Muslims does not make it a religious behavior nor does it point to Islam. you have made a generalization in stating that "honor" is at the core of Arab culture. This may be true. but this is also true for Central and South Asians, Japanese, Central and South Americans. The ideas of what is honorable and what is not avries of course and the punishment for these violations vary culturally. However becareful in brushing everyone with the same stroke because you need to support your reasoning. Honor killings do happen in ethical cultural groups but this is not a Muslim issue because if it was then we would see this phenonmena happening in great numbers in the U.S. as well. In addition if this is a Muslim problem why aren't most of us practicing this anyway? Why are we speaking out against it? Like I said just because it is happening in an Muslim populated country does not mean it is associated with Islam just as college rape in the United States is not associated with being an American citizen. These cultural abnormalities that a lot of times is accepted by the domestic culture. But this is far from the thread's title.
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 10:32pm
NOBODY here is saying that it is a non-muslim problem. What we are saying is that it is almost JUST AS RAMPANT in non-muslims AS IT IS IN muslims. Nobody here is denying that muslims have committed honour-killings, even in the 'name' of Islam . . . ALL WE ARE SAYING is that this is AGAINST Islam, as in something Islam does not vouch for/encourage/cause. Just because a muslim commits a crime, does not automatically classify it AS ISLAMIC. Why do we only get to hear of muslim honor-killings?. . . bcz thats what ppl wanna hear, its currently the Islam-Bashing-Age, just like decades ago it was the Communism-Bashing-Age. Hence you will see a pattern of reporting in the Media. Years ago, Communism was the root of evil in the world, NOW it is Islam. This too shall pass.
Good to know anyone can google nowadays . . .perhaps they should also try and Google all the above mentioned honour-killings. Read the Japanese Culture, the Hindu Culture etc etc etc
Y-E-S. Cultures may spurn loathsome behaviour. Culture is to blame. Also FYI Culture is NOT the product of any ONE religion (e.g Islam) RATHER a mixture of VARIOUS indigineous + foriegn religions/traditions/practises. THUS the Arab Culture is NOT EQUAL to Islam . . . rather is the product of various traditions/cultures OVER CENTURIES. Which includes Pagan rituals, Judaistic Beliefs, Christianity, WitchCraft AS WELL AS Islam. Thus you cannot say Islam is to blame for Arabia's problems. Islam has been around only for 1400 yrs, there are religions/taboos/rituals FAR FAR older that have existed in Arabia hence had an effect on its CULTURE.
Y-E-S. Islam does NOT condone honour-Killings. . . there is no 'on the surface' or 'beneath the surface'. Islam is stark clear about its practices and does not sugar-coat things. Had Islam been tolerant of such practices, it would have been clear. But it is not . . . rather we hav given u examples from the Texts themselves which spk against this. Its human-nature that we believe what we WANT to believe despite having facts stare at us nose-to-nose.
Again the culprit is the sham-state that does not implement Islam. For an example, refer to Islam under the INITIAL Caliphate and Prophethood and you will find, muslims did not practise it.
So pl do not confuse culture/ppl's actions and sham-states with Islam.
Peace.
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