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Jesus Christ was and is a Jehovah�s Witne

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Topic: Jesus Christ was and is a Jehovah�s Witne
Posted By: robin
Subject: Jesus Christ was and is a Jehovah�s Witne
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 10:16am

According to God�s Word The Holy Bible Jesus Christ was and is a Jehovah�s Witness?

 

We can first look at the following texts:-

http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isaiah+43%3A10 - Isaiah 43:10 "YOU [The Israelites nation] are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even my servant [The Israelites nation collectively] whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One.


 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Isaiah+43%3A12 - Isaiah 43:12 "I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU [The Israelites nation] are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah, "and I am God..


Jesus Christ was a member of the the Israelite nation whom God called �my witnesses� and as we will see The Almighty God of the Israelites is called Jehovah, thus making the Israelites nation �Jehovah's Witness� according to the above texts (and the following) from The Holy Bible. Of Jesus being a JW we can glen support form the Greek Texts (N.T.):-

 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+1%3A5 - Revelation 1:5 "Jesus Christ, �the Faithful Witness."

 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+3%3A14 - Revelation 3:14 �And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,�

So Jesus was a witness to what? The following words of Jesus are a help to find out.

 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+17%3A1 - John 17:1 �Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: �Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you,�

 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+17%3A3 - John 17:3 �This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.


�The Father� is a God who has a name that will be made known:-


 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+17%3A6 - John 17:6 ��I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.


 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+17%3A26 - John 17:26 ��And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.��


Is The �Father� name God? Well, what else did Jesus have to say on this matter, we can go to the first phrase from the �Lord�s Prayer�:-


 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+6%3A9 - Matthew 6:9 ���Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified (�Hallowed� KJV).��

And here:-

 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Matthew+28%3A19 - Matthew 28:19 �Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.�


What is God The Father�s Personal Name?

 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Psalm+83%3A18 - Psalm 83:18 �That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.� See the K.J.V.

and

 http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Exodus+3%3A15 - Exodus 3:15   ��This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel,* �Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.� This is my name to time indefinite (�for ever� K.J.V.; �forever� N.I.V.), and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.
*Including Jesus as an Israelite and a descendant of Israel.

Thus Jesus manifested God�s personal name and brought the Greatest honor to it by Witnessing about it and the person who bears that Name, Almighty God Jehovah, His Creator/Father and God.

 

As Jesus made known God�s personal name �Jehovah- he did as his Father�s means of glorifying it, as an obedient son:-

 

John 12:28

�Father, glorify your name.� Therefore a voice came out of heaven: �I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again.��

 

See Matt. 6:

 

Notice Jesus said �YOUR NAME� which is Jehovah (Latinised form) or Yahweh (Hebraic form), they both obviously meant as recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures (O.T.), as the Christian Greek Scriptures (N.T.) had not at that time been penned�

 

This does not mean that he was talking about the Title �The LORD� which is not a name, but as recorded at:-

 

Psalm 83:18

�That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.�

 

So here we see calling The Father �Jehovah� has His personal blessing as it did with Jesus Christ.


Replies:
Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 2:57pm

LOL

No offense, but this is a bit hard to swallow. Jesus was not a Christian such  as a Jehovahs witness is. Can a man follow himself? Jesus was born in the Hebrew tribe of Judah and his mother according to your bible was of the Levite/Judah lineage. He is the promised Hebrew Messiah, the messenger to the descendants of Isaac.
Do you have any copies of pre constantine scriptures? 


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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 6:54pm
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/constantine.htm - http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/constantine.htm
Constantine, a fourth century emperor, wasn't born soon enough to have any impact on the writing of the New Testament. The New Testament was written during the first century, the century during which Jesus lived. Constantine lived during the fourth century.

Nonetheless, the claims of this nature have been around for a long time and were popularized by the novel, The Da Vinci Code, which became a bestseller after it was published in 2003, and a movie in 2006.

The novel essentially claims that Constantine convened a council at Nicea, created the New Testament, and had it canonized. These claims are essential to the plot in The Da Vinci Code because the novel claims that the so-called "Gnostic gospels" were the original Christian documents and Constantine replaced them with the New Testament.

The historical facts, however, show that the New Testament was written during the first century and that the Gnostic gospels were written centuries later, by non-Christians who were trying to imitate Christianity because of its popularity.

Based on writings from early church leaders, including documents dated from the year 96 through the year 112, at least 24 of the 27 books that comprise the New Testament were already regarded by early Christians as being authoritative, a full 200 years before Constantine convened the Council of Nicea.

And, the Council of Nicea didn't canonize anything. The canonization process actually occurred a full 70 years later, on a different continent (Africa). And it should be understood that the process of canonization wasn't intended to "create" or "construct" a New Testament, but to reaffirm the books that for centuries had already been acknowledged as authoritative by Christians.

In addition, there were several writings by early church leaders, who lived long before Constantine was born, that quote, paraphrase and expound upon all or virtually all of the passages found in the New Testament. In fact, some scholars say that one could reconstruct the New Testament from these early writings by church leaders. Here are a few examples:

" . . . as I possessed all the existing works of the Fathers of the second and third centuries, I commenced to search, and up to this time I have found the entire New Testament, except eleven verses." - "Our Bible: How We Got It," Charles Leach, Chicago, Moody Press, 1898, pages 35-36.

"Indeed, so extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament." - "The Text of the New Testament," Bruce Metzger, New York and Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1969, page 86.

The fundamental beliefs of Christianity, including its message that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he is the Son of God, that he is divine, etc., are part of the historical record that pre-dates the time of Constantine, by a few centuries.

Also, the novel is incorrect in claiming that Constantine made Christianity the official religion of his empire. He didn't. Instead, he made it illegal for pagans within his realm to continue persecuting Christians.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 8:15am
Originally posted by mariyah mariyah wrote:

LOL

No offense, but this is a bit hard to swallow. Jesus was not a Christian such  as a Jehovahs witness is. Can a man follow himself? Jesus was born in the Hebrew tribe of Judah and his mother according to your bible was of the Levite/Judah lineage. He is the promised Hebrew Messiah, the messenger to the descendants of Isaac.
Do you have any copies of pre constantine scriptures? 
 
He did not follow himself, he is not God, he taught others to follow Jehovah God!

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 8:17am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/constantine.htm - http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/constantine.htm
Constantine, a fourth century emperor, wasn't born soon enough to have any impact on the writing of the New Testament. The New Testament was written during the first century, the century during which Jesus lived. Constantine lived during the fourth century.

Nonetheless, the claims of this nature have been around for a long time and were popularized by the novel, The Da Vinci Code, which became a bestseller after it was published in 2003, and a movie in 2006.

The novel essentially claims that Constantine convened a council at Nicea, created the New Testament, and had it canonized. These claims are essential to the plot in The Da Vinci Code because the novel claims that the so-called "Gnostic gospels" were the original Christian documents and Constantine replaced them with the New Testament.

The historical facts, however, show that the New Testament was written during the first century and that the Gnostic gospels were written centuries later, by non-Christians who were trying to imitate Christianity because of its popularity.

Based on writings from early church leaders, including documents dated from the year 96 through the year 112, at least 24 of the 27 books that comprise the New Testament were already regarded by early Christians as being authoritative, a full 200 years before Constantine convened the Council of Nicea.

And, the Council of Nicea didn't canonize anything. The canonization process actually occurred a full 70 years later, on a different continent (Africa). And it should be understood that the process of canonization wasn't intended to "create" or "construct" a New Testament, but to reaffirm the books that for centuries had already been acknowledged as authoritative by Christians.

In addition, there were several writings by early church leaders, who lived long before Constantine was born, that quote, paraphrase and expound upon all or virtually all of the passages found in the New Testament. In fact, some scholars say that one could reconstruct the New Testament from these early writings by church leaders. Here are a few examples:

" . . . as I possessed all the existing works of the Fathers of the second and third centuries, I commenced to search, and up to this time I have found the entire New Testament, except eleven verses." - "Our Bible: How We Got It," Charles Leach, Chicago, Moody Press, 1898, pages 35-36.

"Indeed, so extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament." - "The Text of the New Testament," Bruce Metzger, New York and Oxford, Oxford University Press, 1969, page 86.

The fundamental beliefs of Christianity, including its message that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he is the Son of God, that he is divine, etc., are part of the historical record that pre-dates the time of Constantine, by a few centuries.

Also, the novel is incorrect in claiming that Constantine made Christianity the official religion of his empire. He didn't. Instead, he made it illegal for pagans within his realm to continue persecuting Christians.
 
 
1
Constantine was NOT a Christian!
 
2
Jesus was/is NOT God!

Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 12:43pm
Geek 
Copy and paste, copy and paste, Does it occur to you Christians that we accept only the Injeel and torah (and psalms and proverbs)in uncorrupted form and  not the writings of the Roman and greek inspired Paul and his cronies? And the Qur'an, of course!
 
 
From the Qu'ran translation by Yusuf Ali:
 

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:143 Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

Yes you are people of the Book, and you have witnessed the truth of many things!
 
3:70 Ye People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, of which ye are (Yourselves) witnesses?
 
4:69 All who obey Allah and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship! -
 
4:135 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do. -
 
5:8 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
 
:44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
 
 
So being witnesses is not unique to the Jehovahs Witnesses.
 
 
 
 
 


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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:32pm
 
 robin is making wandering statements. Only one seems to be good that Jesus is not god. What else is in his bag is not known to me yet. It would be better to find out the short answers to a few important points so that we understand the beliefs of the JW's.
 
 1. Is trinity the truth?
 2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?
 3. Did Jesus die on the cross?
 4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?
 5. Do the JW's believe in the original sin?
 6. Did Jesus die and take away the sins of people (Atonement)?
 7. Is it necessary to be baptised nowadays?
 8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?
 9. Did he go bodily to heavens or only his soul went up?
10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
 
  robin, please reply point by point. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 8:15pm
ASA Minuteman:
As far as I know the JW's believe:
*Jesus is the son of God but not God,..He is the Archangel Michael sent to the earth to do Gods work(correct me if I am wrong please Robin)
*They believe the concept of the trinity is of pagan origin (which is a point we agree on) the worship is of the One true God only, and all holidays pretty much are not observed as they are "no part of this world"
*The organization is run by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania...
*you were formerly called Bible students, or Russellites (after the founder, Russell"
*Only 144,000 select JW's will go to heaven to rule with Jesus, the rest who are worthy (You must be a baptized JW) will inherit a paradise earth.
*All other so called Christians are part of the whore of Babylon called "christendom" and are condemmed to Gehenna as are the rest of us who do not join their faith.
*The leaders of this brand of faith do not encourage higher education unless it is further study of the tenets of their faith. The end of the world is coming soon and they must "serve as a witness to all nations and then the end will come"
Very simple, inclusive, but easy to figure out.
 


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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 3:13am

again, this needs to be in the interfaith section, not here.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:21am
Originally posted by mariyah mariyah wrote:

ASA Minuteman:
As far as I know the JW's believe:
*Jesus is the son of God but not God,..He is the Archangel Michael sent to the earth to do Gods work(correct me if I am wrong please Robin)
*They believe the concept of the trinity is of pagan origin (which is a point we agree on) the worship is of the One true God only, and all holidays pretty much are not observed as they are "no part of this world"
*The organization is run by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania...
*you were formerly called Bible students, or Russellites (after the founder, Russell"
*Only 144,000 select JW's will go to heaven to rule with Jesus, the rest who are worthy (You must be a baptized JW) will inherit a paradise earth.
*All other so called Christians are part of the whore of Babylon called "christendom" and are condemmed to Gehenna as are the rest of us who do not join their faith.
*The leaders of this brand of faith do not encourage higher education unless it is further study of the tenets of their faith. The end of the world is coming soon and they must "serve as a witness to all nations and then the end will come"
Very simple, inclusive, but easy to figure out.
 
 
note the corrention:-
 
 
*All other so called Christians are part of the whore of Babylon THE GREAT, AND ALL OTHER RELIGIONS and are condemmed to Gehenna as are the rest of us who do not join their faith.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 2:23pm
Robin,
 
that's how you believe, this is how we do:

103:1 CONSIDER the flight of time! 

103:2 Verily, man is bound to lose himself

103:3 unless he be of those  who attain to faith (in God and His messangers), and do good works, and enjoin upon one another the keeping to truth, and enjoin upon one another patience.

Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 12:48am
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Robin,
 
that's how you believe, this is how we do:

103:1 CONSIDER the flight of time! 

103:2 Verily, man is bound to lose himself

103:3 unless he be of those  who attain to faith (in God and His messangers), and do good works, and enjoin upon one another the keeping to truth, and enjoin upon one another patience.

Hasan
 
Logic demands that The one and Only True God has Only One True Religion (Faith)!
 
If this is not the case we can change day to day and anyone will do!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:13pm
Robin,
I agree with what you said.
In Islam we believe that for mankind there is only One true religion or way since the creation of Adam. And that is submission to the One and Only God, in practice that is Islam. Adam was a Muslim, and so were all of God's prophets sent in different times all over the world, like Noah, Moses, Abraham, David, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).
Those of us who know the Creator through logic and knowledge and surrender to His will,  and follow the guidance sent by Him for our times are on the right path.  Those who deny the Judgement Day and deny the logic and knowledge once it has reached their ears, eyes, heart and mind have lost belief, and are lost. Their denial of the Truth will serve as a witness against themselves on the day of Judgement, when their eyes, ears, heart and mind will testify against themself. They will be the losers that Day, and what a loss that will be, a loss forever.
Hasan
 


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 7:44pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I agree with robin Isa/Jesus was a witness of Jehovah/Yahweh/God/Allah [arabic form] i dont see much wrong with the post from an islamic point of view at all. It plainly states it in the Quran that Isa will be a witness against all those who called him God and so will his followers be witnesses for him on the day of judgment that he fulfilled his responsibilities and never claimed such a thing.

The muslim Ummah will be witness against other nations, this is nothing new, Rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] himself said something very similar to this http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=John+17%3A6 - ��I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word"". and the angels bore witness that he too had fulfilled his trust and responsibility, later on Allah said in the Quran "today i have perfected your religion".

robin you misquoted Isaiah 43:12 and made it sound as if Jesus was saying he was God the entire verse reads..."I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God". I also think you are over extending the meaning of some of the passages in the bible as  Jehovah/Yahweh/God/Allah will not call to witness for him those people who have not lived the life he chose for them. This would be the equivalent of calling a serial killer to witness for God against other serial killers and to tell them what they did was wrong, there is no moral high ground here and it would be clear hypocrisy.

Mariyah there is no need to be rude to Robin and suggest that she leaves the forum or they are not welcome here it isnt your place to say who is or isn't allowed to come to a public forum, if you can not entertain multiple conflicting ideas in your mind then quietly leave the discussion there is no shame in that.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Robin,
I agree with what you said.
In Islam we believe that for mankind there is only One true religion or way since the creation of Adam. And that is submission to the One and Only God, in practice that is Islam. Adam was a Muslim, and so were all of God's prophets sent in different times all over the world, like Noah, Moses, Abraham, David, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).
Those of us who know the Creator through logic and knowledge and surrender to His will,  and follow the guidance sent by Him for our times are on the right path.  Those who deny the Judgement Day and deny the logic and knowledge once it has reached their ears, eyes, heart and mind have lost belief, and are lost. Their denial of the Truth will serve as a witness against themselves on the day of Judgement, when their eyes, ears, heart and mind will testify against themself. They will be the losers that Day, and what a loss that will be, a loss forever.
Hasan
 
 

Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:-

 

Genesis 2:16-17

And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: �From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.�

 

 

Genesis 3:11-12

From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?� 12 And the man went on to say: �The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.�

 

Genesis 3:17-19

And to Adam he said: �Because you listened to your wife�s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, �You must not eat from it,� cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.�

 
Thus he dies for his badness! 

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 2:08pm
1. Is trinity the truth?
NO!
 
2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?
IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.
HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.
 
3. Did Jesus die on the cross?
NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).
 
4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?
YES.
 
5. Do the JW's believe in the original sin?
YES, IT WAS DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD. 
 
6. Did Jesus die and take away the sins of people (Atonement)?
YES, BY HIS BLOOD
 
7. Is it necessary to be baptised nowadays?
YES 
 
8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?
EXPLAINE PLEASE
 
9. Did he go bodily to heavens or only his soul went up?
HUMANS DO NOT HAVE SOULS THEY ARE SOULS
SOUL CAN MEAN LIFE.
JESUS WAS RAISED A SPIRIT BEING.
 
10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 2:19am
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

 

Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:-

 
Thus he dies for his badness! 
 
Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command.
 

Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

And to Adam he said: �Because you listened to your wife�s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, �You must not eat from it,� cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.�

 
Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel.
 
I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE.
 
 When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called:

"They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23) 

And God accepts their plea:

".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122)

 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 6:09am

Robin :�Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to�

This was not a so called rebel or disobedience. When Allah swt commanded Adam and his wife to avoid the tree, they actually obeyed (accepted it) without a doubt. After that Satan caused them to be out of the state they were in.

Quran (2:36) But Satan caused them to deflect from the state in which they were; and we said: Fall down, some of you are the enemies of others. There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision till a time.

However, this can not be categorized as committing a sin because at that time there was yet no religion according to which you can define a sin. A sin can only be defined associated with the religion which is revealed to human (on the earth) to be guided. My evidence to this is the verse after the above verse in Quran which shows the start point of religion revelation for human being after coming on earth:   

Quran (2:38) We said," Get down from it, all together! Yet, should any guidance come to you from Me, those who follow My guidance shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

On the other hand, falling down to earth was not really because of Adam and Ave eating from the tree. Before that Allah swt had told the angels about it in earlier verses:

Quran (2:30) So when your Lord told the angels:" I am placing an overlord on earth", they said:" Will You place someone there who will corrupt it and shed blood, while we hymn Your praise and sanctify You?" He said:" I know something you do not know.

Therefore, there is no original sin

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 6:37am
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?
IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.
 
so in a way He is still a God, just not the calibre of the Creator. This point of yours makes it that there is 2 Gods.
 
Quote 3. Did Jesus die on the cross?
NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).
 
On a stake upright?? And how did He stay up there on the stake.
 
Quote 8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?
EXPLAINE PLEASE
 
I think the poster means, that did Jesus meet any of his enemies in heaven after rising up to heaven.
 
Quote 10. When will he come back and what he wil do
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS
 
Jesus returned in 1914 ???
so the second coming has come and gone??


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?
IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.
 
so in a way He is still a God, just not the calibre of the Creator. This point of yours makes it that there is 2 Gods.
 
NO!  THE WORD GOD IN THE BIBLE CAN BE GENERIC IN SENCE REFFERING TO A POWERFUL SPIRIT BEING OR PERSON EXAMPLE MOSES:-
 

Exodus 4:16  "And he* must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you** will serve as God*** to him*."

*Aaron; **Moses; ***N.W.T. (ftn) "As God.� Heb., le��lo�him', pl.; Gr., the�on'; Lat., De'um."

 

Exodus 7:1   "Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God* to Pharaoh, and Aaron   your own brother will become your prophet.

*N.W.T. "(ftn.) �God.� Heb., �elo�him'; Gr., the�on'; Latin, De'um."

N.I.V. Study Bible. Comment on Ex 7:1 (and Ex 4:16).

*As God transmits his word through his prophets to his people, so Moses will transmit God's message through Aaron to pharaoh.  The prophet's task was to speak God's word on God's behalf.  He was God's "mouth" (4:15-16)."

 

 

Quote 3. Did Jesus die on the cross?
NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).
 
On a stake upright?? And how did He stay up there on the stake.
 
NAILS AND A BLOCK UNDER HIS FEET
 
Quote 8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?
EXPLAINE PLEASE
 
I think the poster means, that did Jesus meet any of his enemies in heaven after rising up to heaven.
 
YES; HE OUSTED SATAN AND HIS DEOMNS FROM THERE; SEE REVELATION 12:7-9
Quote 10. When will he come back and what he wil do
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS
 
Jesus returned in 1914 ???
so the second coming has come and gone??
 
AND IS ONGOING

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:53am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

 

Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:-

 
Thus he dies for his badness! 
 
Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command.
 

Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

And to Adam he said: �Because you listened to your wife�s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, �You must not eat from it,� cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.�

 
Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel.
 
I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE.
 
 When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called:

"They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23) 

And God accepts their plea:

".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122)

 

Allah told Adam that if HE eats the fruit from a certain tree he would die, so it was poison for him.

 
It was a warning, not to do things that would kill him (Adam), how can that be bad or wrong, would you not do it for you own child?
 
Adam did not listion so suffered form his OWN actions as God said he would, how can that be wrong?
 
God tried to stop him from doing bad, Adam did not listion to God, so how is God wrong when he tried to stop Adam doing things that would hurt himself?
 
If youer own child did things that you told him would bring pain, as you did not want your child to suffer, but he or she ignored what you said and did bad things behind your back how would you be wrong if you had done all in your power to stop it but, they took no note?
 
Your reasoning need to be looked at!
 
Because God allows badness does not make him the cause of it!

Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 1:45pm
 
Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command.
 

Originally posted by robin

And to Adam he said: �Because you listened to your wife�s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, �You must not eat from it,� cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.�

 
Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel.
 
I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE
 
 
I agree with you sister Nur!


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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 9:55pm
Robin, you said:
 
God tried to stop him from doing bad.
 
If God warned Adam how did God try to stop Adam? By God trying to stop adam and Adam succeeded doesn't that make God impotent in will? Also, if God successfully stopped Adam wouldn't that violate man's freewill? Questions Questions....

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 12:59am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Robin, you said:
 
God tried to stop him from doing bad.
 
If God warned Adam how did God try to stop Adam? By God trying to stop adam and Adam succeeded doesn't that make God impotent in will? Also, if God successfully stopped Adam wouldn't that violate man's freewill? Questions Questions....
 
Adam should of obyed God as his creator, this he should not of gone against.
 
The warning God gave Adam was his help to Adam, as you say Adam had free will, which he abused in that he ignored God and paid the price!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 10:43am
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

Robin,
I agree with what you said.
In Islam we believe that for mankind there is only One true religion or way since the creation of Adam. And that is submission to the One and Only God, in practice that is Islam. Adam was a Muslim, and so were all of God's prophets sent in different times all over the world, like Noah, Moses, Abraham, David, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).
Those of us who know the Creator through logic and knowledge and surrender to His will,  and follow the guidance sent by Him for our times are on the right path.  Those who deny the Judgement Day and deny the logic and knowledge once it has reached their ears, eyes, heart and mind have lost belief, and are lost. Their denial of the Truth will serve as a witness against themselves on the day of Judgement, when their eyes, ears, heart and mind will testify against themself. They will be the losers that Day, and what a loss that will be, a loss forever.
Hasan
 
 

Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:-

 

Genesis 2:16-17

And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: �From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.�

 

 

Genesis 3:11-12

From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?� 12 And the man went on to say: �The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.�

 

Genesis 3:17-19

And to Adam he said: �Because you listened to your wife�s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, �You must not eat from it,� cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.�

 
Thus he dies for his badness! 
 
Robin,
Adam did what some of us do often, do something that is not to be done, a sin or to disobey God, because something wrong attracted us. That does not mean we don't submitt to God.
Submitting to God means to acknowledge and believe that there is One God, the Creator, who has a set of rules for us revealed, so we follow them, when we fail to follow any one of them, we fall into sin or disobidience to God, we acknowledge our mistake, turn to our Maker for forgiveness and Mercy.
We are told that, once we realize  we made a mistake and sinned, and we repent, God will turn to us in Mercy, as He is The Merciful God.  God will forgive us for our mistakes and reward each one of us for our good deeds.
 
You say Adam did not submitt to God. That is wrong assumption because, not submitting to God means to refuse God as your Cereator and to refuse to live by His commands.
Adam, submitted to the will of God, fall in error and sinned, later he realized his mistake and repented and according to the Final Testament was forgiven by God, the Merciful.
 
The Quran:2:37 "Thereupon adam received words [of guidance] from his Sustainer, and He accepted his repentance: for, verily, He alone is the-Acceptor of Repentance, the Dispenser of Grace."
 
Hasan


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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 11:26pm
 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
 
1. Is trinity the truth?
NO!
 Thanks Robin for going against Trinity.
 
2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?
IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.
HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.
 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.
Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.
 
 
3. Did Jesus die on the cross?
NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).
That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.
 
4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?
YES.
 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,
 
5. Do the JW's believe in the original sin?
YES, IT WAS DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD. 
 That means the JW's believe that Jesus died for the sins of others. They believe in the atonement. Thanks again for such info.
 
6. Did Jesus die and take away the sins of people (Atonement)?
YES, BY HIS BLOOD,
 
  That is understood by your above reply too. No comments.
 
7. Is it necessary to be baptised nowadays?
YES 
 
 Very good. Are the JW's baptising nowadays?  Very good idea.
 
8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?
EXPLAINE PLEASE
 
 You believe that Jesus became alive after being dead for two days. He came out of the tomb alive and walked away. After walking away, did he meet any of his arch enemies who had ordered his execution by crucifixion? Did he appear before any of the soldiers or Kiafa (his big enemy)?  Now that you have understood my question, please explain the problem to me.
 
9. Did he go bodily to heavens or only his soul went up?
HUMANS DO NOT HAVE SOULS THEY ARE SOULS
SOUL CAN MEAN LIFE.
JESUS WAS RAISED A SPIRIT BEING.
 
 You had understood my question. Please answer. Jesus had a body and a soul. I would like to know whether Jesus went up to heavens in his body or only his soul went up. Do not give a new lecture about human do not have souls.
 
10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS
 
 Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?
 
 In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 10:17am
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
  
In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.
 

 2ND REPLY

1. Is trinity the truth?

NO!

 Thanks Robin for going against Trinity.

THE TRINITY IS BASED ON PAGAN GREEK PHILOSOPHY WHICH IN TRUN DRAWS A LOT OF IT IDEAS FROM ANCIENT PAGAN EGYPTIAN THEOLOGY, THUS ANYONE WHO BELEIVES IT IS PRATCICING PAGANISM!

 

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.

 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.

Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.

JESUS IS A TOTAL SEPRATE PERSON FROM GOD ALMIGHTY WITH HIS OWN WILL!

HE IS LIKE GOD BECAUSE GOD TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT AND HE DOES IT!

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD IT IS AN IMPERSONAL POWER FROM GOD.

 

 

 

3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.

THE CROSS IS ANOTHER PAGAN IDEA ABSORBED INTO CHRISTIANITY.

JESUS DIES THE JEWISH WAY, ON A STAKE. 

 

 

4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?

YES.

 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,

WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH HE WAS TOTAL HUMAN.

WHEN HE WENT BACK INTO HEAVEN HE WAS GIVEN HIS SPIRIT FORM BACK, THUS GOD LIKE1 

 

5. Do the JW's believe in the original sin?

YES, IT WAS DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD. 

 That means the JW's believe that Jesus died for the sins of others. They believe in the atonement. Thanks again for such info.

 

6. Did Jesus die and take away the sins of people (Atonement)?

YES, BY HIS BLOOD,

 

  That is understood by your above reply too. No comments.

 

7. Is it necessary to be baptised nowadays?

YES 

 

 Very good. Are the JW's baptising nowadays?  Very good idea.

 

8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?

EXPLAINE PLEASE

 

 You believe that Jesus became alive after being dead for two days. He came out of the tomb alive and walked away. After walking away, did he meet any of his arch enemies who had ordered his execution by crucifixion? Did he appear before any of the soldiers or Kiafa (his big enemy)?  Now that you have understood my question, please explain the problem to me.

BEFORE HE WENT BACK TO HEAVEN HE ONLY APPERED TO HIS FOLLOWERS ON EARTH 

 

 

9. Did he go bodily to heavens or only his soul went up?

HUMANS DO NOT HAVE SOULS THEY ARE SOULS

SOUL CAN MEAN LIFE.

JESUS WAS RAISED A SPIRIT BEING.

 

 You had understood my question. Please answer. Jesus had a body and a soul. I would like to know whether Jesus went up to heavens in his body or only his soul went up. Do not give a new lecture about human do not have souls.

FLEASH CANNOT GO INTO HEAVEN, SO NO, JESUS WAS RAISED UP IN SPIRIT FROM AND MATERALISED BODIES SO HIE FOLLOWER COULD SEE HIM THEM DEMATERALISED THEM.

 

 

10. When will he come back and what he wil do?

HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

 

 Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?

NO!

HE WAS GIVEN HIS KINGSHIP IN 1914 IN HEAVEN.

JESUS IS NOW THE KING OF GOD�S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN AND WILL NEVER COME BACK TO THIS EARTH AGAIN!

 

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 3:41am
 
  Robin, thanks for giving more replies. I hope to understand your point of view. But I will be wondering where went the body that Jesus had. The body could not go up to heavens. So it must have remained on earth.
 
 Also, how did you calculate the year 1914 that Jesus got the kingship? More questions later. But you may answer the few that I have just asked. Thank you.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:15am
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
  
In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.
 

  

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.

 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.

Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.

JESUS IS A TOTAL SEPRATE PERSON FROM GOD ALMIGHTY WITH HIS OWN WILL!

HE IS LIKE GOD BECAUSE GOD TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT AND HE DOES IT!

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD IT IS AN IMPERSONAL POWER FROM GOD.

 
 
Are humans like god?

 

 

Quote 3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.

THE CROSS IS ANOTHER PAGAN IDEA ABSORBED INTO CHRISTIANITY.

JESUS DIES THE JEWISH WAY, ON A STAKE.

 
Actually it is not pagan nor asborbed into christianity, it was the way romans did captial punishment, by cruifying. Hence the image of Jesus on the cross. 

 

Quote 4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?

YES.

 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,

WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH HE WAS TOTAL HUMAN.

WHEN HE WENT BACK INTO HEAVEN HE WAS GIVEN HIS SPIRIT FORM BACK, THUS GOD LIKE1

 
Are humans god like to. 

 

 
Quote 10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?

NO!

HE WAS GIVEN HIS KINGSHIP IN 1914 IN HEAVEN.

JESUS IS NOW THE KING OF GOD�S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN AND WILL NEVER COME BACK TO THIS EARTH AGAIN!

 
 
So, no second coming ??


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 10:44am
Robin:
The warning God gave Adam was his help to Adam, as you say Adam had free will, which he abused in that he ignored God and paid the price!
 
 
Adam's disobedience to God is not abuse of his freewill but quite the opposite. Obedience especially when we have options to either be obedient or not is a choice. Some would say, paradoxically, that to not exercise such (Freewill) would be to consciously abuse it! Although this may be contradictory in its own complexity (since to not act would also be a choice in itself thus exercising freewill) Adam didn't abuse his freedom (even though some of you moralist may be inclined to say otherwise) but exercised his freewill yet, made a poor "choice." Just wanted to clarify that point.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Robin:
The warning God gave Adam was his help to Adam, as you say Adam had free will, which he abused in that he ignored God and paid the price!
 
 
Adam's disobedience to God is not abuse of his freewill but quite the opposite. Obedience especially when we have options to either be obedient or not is a choice. Some would say, paradoxically, that to not exercise such (Freewill) would be to consciously abuse it! Although this may be contradictory in its own complexity (since to not act would also be a choice in itself thus exercising freewill) Adam didn't abuse his freedom (even though some of you moralist may be inclined to say otherwise) but exercised his freewill yet, made a poor "choice." Just wanted to clarify that point.
 
Genesis 2:17
But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
 
Human free will is limited with in the bounds set by God, go out of bounds and it is an abuse that leads to death as it is doing the will of Satan The Devil, thus Adam died!

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
  
In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.
 

  

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.

 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.

Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.

JESUS IS A TOTAL SEPRATE PERSON FROM GOD ALMIGHTY WITH HIS OWN WILL!

HE IS LIKE GOD BECAUSE GOD TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT AND HE DOES IT!

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD IT IS AN IMPERSONAL POWER FROM GOD.

 
 
Are humans like god?

 
"Let us make man in our image" only LIKE him!
 
Psalms  82:1-8   "God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One*;  In the middle of the gods** he judges:  "How long will YOU keep on judging with injustice  And showing partiality to the wicked themselves?  Be judges for the lowly one and the fatherless boy. To the afflicted one and the one of little means do  justice.   Provide escape for the lowly one and the poor one;  Out of the hand of the wicked ones deliver [them]."   They have not known, and they do not understand;  In    darkness they keep walking about;  All the  foundations of the earth are made to totter.    "I myself have said, 'YOU are gods***,  And all of YOU are sons of the Most High. . . ."

*N.W.T. (ftn) "Or, �God.� Heb., �El; LXXVg, �gods�; Sy, �angels.�"

**N.W.T. (ftn) "Or, �godlike ones.� Heb., �elo�him'; LXXVgc, �gods�; Sy, �angels�; T, �judges.�"

***N.W.T. (ftn) "Or, �godlike ones.� Heb., �elo�him'; Gr., the�oi'; Syr., da��la�hin; Lat., di'i; T, like   angels.�

 

N.I.V. Study Bible. Comment on Ps 82:6.

"I said.  Those who rule (or judge) do so by God's appointment (see 2:7 ; Isa 44:28) and thus they   are his representatives- whether they acknowledge him or not (see Ex 9:16; Jer 27:6; Da 2:21; 4:17.32; 5:18; Jn 17:11; Ro 13:1).  gods. See note on v. 1*. sons of. See note on v, 1, Most High.  See note on Ge 14:19."

*"An early rabbinic interpretation (see Jn 10:35-35) understanding the "gods" (vv. 1,6) to be unjust rulers and judges in Israel, of whom there were many . . . ."

 

K.J.V. Companion Bible, Ps 82:1

**"gods  Elohim: used of earthly judges as representing Him.  Cp. Ex. 21.6; 22.8, 9, 28 (quoted in   Acts 23.5.).  Hence Moses is so spoken of (Ex. 7. 1).  (it is used also of idols as representing even a    false god.)  See John 10. 34, 35."

 

"Verse 6. Ye are gods � Or, with the prefix of k ke, the particle of similitude,      keelohim, �like God.� Ye are my representatives, and are clothed with my power and authority to dispense judgment and justice, therefore all of them are said to be children of the Most High."-Clarke's Commentary OT, Vol. 3 Job - Song of Solomon by Adam Clarke p.1084

 

Psalm 82:6

 

�I myself have said, �YOU are gods, And all of YOU  are sons of the Most High.

 

If God can call humans �gods� by his own word and these are also �sons� and as it is there are many of them as it refers to them in the plural.

 

 

Quote 3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.

THE CROSS IS ANOTHER PAGAN IDEA ABSORBED INTO CHRISTIANITY.

JESUS DIES THE JEWISH WAY, ON A STAKE.

 
Actually it is not pagan nor asborbed into christianity, it was the way romans did captial punishment, by cruifying. Hence the image of Jesus on the cross. 

 
The Romans did not Kill Jesus the Jews did!

The following is from various scholastic sources on the pre-Christian origin and use of the cross.

"Cross, a structure, usually an upright bearing a horizontal beam. The cross was common to most cultures from prehistoric times. It is used primarily as a religious symbol, and is the principal symbol of Christianity. The cross recalls the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the redeeming benefits of his Passion and death. It is thus a sign both of Jesus Christ and of the faith of Christians. A crucifix is a representation of Christ on the cross. Before the Christian Era, crosses were used as religious or other symbols; a variation, the swastika, was marked on many early Christian tombs as a veiled symbol of the cross. In the 4th century, after Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, the cross became popular in Christian art and funerary monuments. In the 20th century Roman Catholicism began emphasizing the use of crucifixes in liturgical settings. Protestant churches use the cross ornamentally and ceremonially to varying degrees. The crucifix is usually confined to private devotional use; making a sign of the cross can be an act of profession of faith, a prayer, a dedication, or a benediction. see also St. Andrew's Cross."-Excerpted from The Complete Reference Collection. Copyright � 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company

"One of the oldest amuletic signs in the world, perhaps even the oldest, is the CROSS, that is to say the figure which is made by two straight lines which bisect each other at right angles +. This is what in commonly understood by the word "cross," and not the single wooden pillar or pole to which malefactors condemned to death were tied, and which is spoken of by some writers as the crux simplex. It was at one time believed by many writers on ecclesiastical symbols, relics, etc., that the cross was entirely of Christian origin, but such is not the case, for it was in use among the pagan peoples of Eastern Asia and Europe many centuries before the death of Christ. That the pagan cross symbolised something quite different from that which the Christian cross commemorated hardly needs to be said. But judging by what we think we know symbolism of the pagan cross we are justified regarding it as a forerunner of the Christian cross. . . ."-'Amulets and Superstitions' by E.A. Wallis Budge p.336

"CROSS "The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as a symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent, A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the crosspiece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ"-'An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words' (London, 1962), W.E. Vine, p.256

 
 

Quote 4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?

YES.

 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,

WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH HE WAS TOTAL HUMAN.

WHEN HE WENT BACK INTO HEAVEN HE WAS GIVEN HIS SPIRIT FORM BACK, THUS GOD LIKE1

 
Are humans god like to. 

 

Yes in that we can copy God's loving ways of doing things, he made us with that capasity, thus we can be like him.
 
 
Quote 10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?

NO!

HE WAS GIVEN HIS KINGSHIP IN 1914 IN HEAVEN.

JESUS IS NOW THE KING OF GOD�S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN AND WILL NEVER COME BACK TO THIS EARTH AGAIN!

 
 
So, no second coming ??
 
The second  is now a past event it happend in 1914.
 

Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 5:10am

Robin: Are humans like god?

"Let us make man in our image" only LIKE him!

Human can be like God in different degrees. Let me explain my belief in this way: A human can be like Him in His attributions (by different ranges of number and level) but not in His existence. What is the name �Allah�?

Allah swt = His existence + ALL attributions together.

Allah swt has many names but the other names (except Allah) are based on particular attributions. For instance, one of His names is �The Creator� (Al-khalegh in Arabic).  This name is based on the attribution �creative� and so on but Allah is the collection of ALL His attributions in one name.

Now, a person may be like Allah (in his/her own level) in some attributions more or less than the others and/or in more or less numbers of attributions. Those who are chosen by Allah swt to guide people are the most like Him still in different levels associated with their mission. I am not going to discuss the difference in levels here, but Isa (as) is not the only one, the absolute one and the last one. In terms of prophet-hood, there is one individual except Isa (as) and after him (In Islam) who is chosen by Allah swt and had mission and even is already introduced by Isa (as), who is Mohammad (sawa).

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 9:12am
 

Quote 3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.

THE CROSS IS ANOTHER PAGAN IDEA ABSORBED INTO CHRISTIANITY.

JESUS DIES THE JEWISH WAY, ON A STAKE.

 
Actually it is not pagan nor asborbed into christianity, it was the way romans did captial punishment, by cruifying. Hence the image of Jesus on the cross. 

 
The Romans did not Kill Jesus the Jews did!
 
 
I know the history of the cross in various shapes and that it's pre Christianity. But you did not take note of what I said. The capital punishment that the romans carried out was cruification that was in the form of a cross give or take for perfection of a cross shape. That is why i said its not pagan nor absorb into christianity. The cross for Christianity came because Jesus died on a cross, hence the symbol for the religion, there are a few other meanings but i am not going to go through them it would just be a waste of time.
 
robin, don't forget that there were 2 other guys with Jesus. I suppose according by you those 2 men were killed by the Jews also or perhaps there were no others just Jesus himself. 
 
 
Quote 10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?

NO!

HE WAS GIVEN HIS KINGSHIP IN 1914 IN HEAVEN.

JESUS IS NOW THE KING OF GOD�S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN AND WILL NEVER COME BACK TO THIS EARTH AGAIN!

 
 
So, no second coming ??
 
The second  is now a past event it happend in 1914.
 
 
I see.


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 11:24am
Evidently your reading comprehension is not up to par. I never said anything about Jesus being god. You are not really reading anything then, you are judging and retorting and spamming!
Jesus is a messenger of Allah. So was Mohammad. Alhamdullillah!
 
 
 
Originally posted by robin robin wrote:

Originally posted by mariyah mariyah wrote:

LOL

No offense, but this is a bit hard to swallow. Jesus was not a Christian such  as a Jehovahs witness is. Can a man follow himself? Jesus was born in the Hebrew tribe of Judah and his mother according to your bible was of the Levite/Judah lineage. He is the promised Hebrew Messiah, the messenger to the descendants of Isaac.
Do you have any copies of pre constantine scriptures? 
 
He did not follow himself, he is not God, he taught others to follow Jehovah God!


-------------
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 12:49am
Originally posted by mariyah mariyah wrote:

Do you have any copies of pre constantine scriptures? 

 

Or is it perhaps you are not listening.

 

Yes they can be had from most Bible societies.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 2:16am

Greek word for name (onoma) in John 17: 6 & 26.

From - http://vines.mike-obrien.net/

http://vines.mike-obrien.net/vines_view_definition.asp?englishword=Name&greekword=onoma&wordindex=1#1 - Name  ( http://vines.mike-obrien.net/vines_search.asp?searchText=onoma - - 1)   http://vines.mike-obrien.net/vines_list_cited_verses.asp?englishword=Name&greekword=onoma&wordindex=1 - Scripture Index for onoma
Is used (I) in general of the "name" by which a person or thing is called, e.g., Mr. 3:16,17, "(He) surnamed," lit., "(He added) the name;" Mr. 14:32, lit., "(of which) the name (was);" Lu. 1:63; Joh....

 

King James Version (KJV).

http://vines.mike-obrien.net/vines_view_verse_word.asp?word=Name\onoma\John\17\6\ - John 17:6     I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

http://vines.mike-obrien.net/vines_view_verse_word.asp?word=Name\onoma\John\17\26\ - John 17:26     And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.�

 

New International Version (NIV).

John 17:6    "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

 

John 17:26    I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

 

The NIV is said to be one of the most popular Bibles in the world!

 

The NIV removes from the text of the Bible that Jesus made Gods NAME manifest or known!


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