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The Islam you don't hear about

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Topic: The Islam you don't hear about
Posted By: Angel
Subject: The Islam you don't hear about
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 3:01am
Khaleej Times online
 
The Islam you don't hear about
25th June, 2008

After the 9/11 attacks, Americans put out a call for moderate Islam. Many Muslims answered that call, but few Americans heard them. Early this month, I travelled to Asia to see what Islam looks like on the ground there, and to listen to what Muslims themselves have to say about their religion, terrorism and the United States. What I found surprised me.

I went to Asia because Islam is by no means a Middle Eastern phenomenon. In fact, Asia is home to most of the world's Muslims. I focused on Indonesia because there are more Muslims in Indonesia than in any other country, roughly three times as many as in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

But what makes Indonesia strategically important to the United States is not simply its huge Muslim population (roughly 200 million) but the fact that Indonesian Muslims are by no means anti-Western.

There are fundamentalists in Indonesia, to be sure, but they account for roughly one in every 10 citizens there. The overwhelming majority of Indonesia's Muslims are moderates, and about one in five are progressives.

Fundamentalists typically want to see their countries follow the path of Saudi Arabia or Iran in instituting an Islamic legal code referred to as Shariah.

Moderates and progressives typically favour the separation of mosque and state, and they enthusiastically affirm democracy. Progressives distinguish themselves from moderates by speaking out more forcefully for religious pluralism and equal rights for women, and by drawing more generously on the thinking of intellectuals from Europe, Latin America and the USA.

Although scholars might quibble about these definitions and the portion of the Indonesian public to assign to each, what is plain is that in Indonesia fundamentalism is fringe. A survey released in May by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute observes that "Islamist parties have failed to attract votes" in Indonesia, which "today has one of the world's most successful track records in combating terrorism."

The Muslims I spoke with during my visit to Yogyakarta, a cultural and intellectual centre of this vast island archipelago, came from both the moderate and progressive wings. All are eagerly adapting Islam to local circumstances, mixing its ancient traditions with those of their own. They see no conflict between Islam and civil society.

During my days in Indonesia, I did not see a single woman covered from head to foot in the chador so characteristic of Iran, and in the rural areas I visited many women did not wear any head covering at all. According to "Who Speaks for Islam?" a Gallup poll of Muslims worldwide released earlier this year, 88 per cent of Indonesians believe that a woman should be allowed to do any job for which she is qualified.

In Indonesia, I heard about female imams (prayer leaders) and about marriages between Christians and Muslims. Repeatedly, I was told that Muslims reject any coercion in religion, that they view not only Jews and Christians as fellow "people of the book" but Hindus and Buddhists as well.

Religious pluralism, especially, seems a key concept here, where the influences of Buddhism, Hinduism and Christianity have wafted across Indonesia's 17,000-plus islands for centuries. Why did God create the world? According to the principle of an Islamic school in Yogyakarta, it's because God prefers multiplicity to unity, because "difference is good."

The Muslims I encountered scoff at any notion of a "clash of civilizations" between Islam and the West. Any clash of civilizations that exists, they tell me, is between fundamentalists of all faiths and their liberal and moderate opponents. And in that clash, the vast majority of Americans are in common cause with the vast majority of Indonesians.

During my visit to Indonesia, Muslims pointed out many important commonalities between our two countries. Both are huge geographically. Both have ethnically and racially diverse populations. Both provide constitutional guarantees for religious freedom.

Barack Obama clinched the Democratic Party nomination while I was in Indonesia, and everyone I met wanted to talk about him. Indonesians are rooting for Obama not because he is some secret Muslim (they know he is a Christian) but because he spent some of his formative years in their capital city of Jakarta.

One of my Indonesian interviewees, citing a local tradition of how family networks can be extended not only through marriage but also through political regimes, went so far as to suggest that if Obama is elected, Americans and Indonesians will become kin.

During my interviews, I always asked what Indonesians would like to convey to Americans about Islam. Repeatedly, my interlocutors returned to the question of war and peace. "Islam is not about violence," they told me. "Islam is not terrorism. Islam is peace."

This did not surprise me. What did surprise me was how American all these people sounded. I heard repeatedly about equality and democracy and humanitarianism and tolerance and reason and human rights, as if I were speaking with 21st century reincarnations of America's Founders. When I asked Zuli Qodir, an intellectual of a highly popular moderate group called Muhammadiyah, what Islam is all about, he began with, "Islam is justice. And equality. And democracy."

Just before I left, a progressive student activist in Yogyakarta went so far as to assert that in some respects, "the American people are more Islamic than the Indonesian people." While political corruption is endemic in Indonesia, he explained, Americans respect the rule of law, viewing such corruption as something to be rooted out rather than something to be tolerated.

Americans have good reasons to be apprehensive about Islam. Islamic radicals bombed two nightclubs in Bali, Indonesia, in October 2002, killing 202 people. And the men who hijacked three jets on 9/11 shouted "Allahu Akbar" ("God is great") as they steered those planes toward their targets.

But jihadists are one thing, and ordinary Muslims are quite another. Americans of good will know this. What we also need to know is that in the fight against Islamic radicalism, one of our key allies could be Islam itself.

Stephen Prothero is the chair of the department of religion at Boston University and the author of Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know And Doesn't. He wrote this article for The USA Today

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http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38526 - http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=38526


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~



Replies:
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 12:10am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Hi Angel

"Indonesian Muslims are by no means anti-Western"

This statement assumes that to dislike or in fact Hate what America, Israel, Britain...etc are doing to the muslim world in fact the entire world is the equivalent of being anti western. I live in the west i dont hate the west but i certainly hate the wrong things that are going on am i now anti western heck anyone who didnt vote for bush in America can be labeled anti western according to that generalisation.....its not a reasonable one or one that can remotely be true.

"
Fundamentalists typically want to see their countries follow the path of Saudi Arabia or Iran in instituting an Islamic legal code referred to as Shariah."

that is just ignorant, all moderate muslims want to see shariah law implemented, what they dont want to see is the extreme version that Saudi arabia has implemented, which doesn't imply rigid vs lenient equate to wrong and right but rather that saudi Ulumah have got it wrong on some very important issues, according to pretty much everyone else, its not an if/or scenario.

finally anyone who doesn't want to see shariah law implemented in an islamic country you can pretty much label a "progressive" the nice word for saying misguided.

"Moderates and progressives typically favour the separation of mosque and state"

This is just clueless, moderates dont want to see imbecile clerics who's popularity is solely based upon the amount of groups they hate in charge of running important things. So i too would be holding back on who gets to implement shariah law.

"
and they enthusiastically affirm democracy"

im in favour of an islamic democracy which upholds shariah law, since when has that ever been wrong in islam, the Khalifah system is not enshrined in Islams holy book its just practical. Look at the ottoman khalifah they took bureaucracy to a hole other level and essentially taught it to the west [formally known as imperial powers].

"
Although scholars might quibble about these definitions and the portion of the Indonesian public to assign to each, what is plain is that in Indonesia fundamentalism is fringe."

that pretty much sums it up well but lets be clear about how wrong these labels are, the article is not even close in using them.

"They see no conflict between Islam and civil society."

i understand the need to say this and essentially the auther is right in the context of the article but the reality of it is that it is analogous to going to a mans house clandestinely cause him to vehemently bicker between his wife and children then later on walking up to his face and dare to look down on him for not being capable of properly running his household.

I could just as easily say we turned on the light in the dark ages, [as apposed to "islam" which is a far less personal and more noble statement], if your wondering why i went this far its the authers use of the word civil and what that is saying about muslims in general.

"
The Muslims I encountered scoff at any notion of a "clash of civilizations" between Islam and the West. Any clash of civilizations that exists, they tell me, is between fundamentalists of all faiths and their liberal and moderate opponents."

I think thats well said, Even islamic prophecy states that the next world war or rather the final one wont be on religious grounds and that muslims and christians will be fighting side by side. Extremists have what can be labeled as preemptive hate due a time period that will come and pass after this great war....the time of the mahdi and Isa, a time when no other religion except the true religion will exist. Essentially they say that all other religions will perish,the hadith explicitly and implicitly [this is the part the "extremists" as apposed to fundamentalist ignore] state all people will be converted to islam rather than annihilated so even then there is no prophetic justification or imperative for this hate they have to anyone that isnt them really.

" rooting for Obama not because he is some secret Muslim(they know he is a Christian)"

LOL to be fair the republicans spread that rumor it had nothing to do with us.



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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 7:21am
Thanks rami, good points.  

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 8:01am
People in the west have turned "fundamentalist" into a bad word.  I believe that most Muslims are fundamentalists, as we all believe in the fundamentals of Islam.  Just as most Christians are fundamentalists and most Jews are fundamentalists. 
 
Just as the word jihad has taken on a very twisted meaning in western media, so has fundamentalist. Not to mention Islamist. What does that even mean? There is no such word in Islam yet the media use it everyday...


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 5:37pm

"Fundamentalist" is generally considered to be the opposite of "progressive".  By that definition, fundamentalists are therefore opposed to progress, which is why it's considered a bad word in the West.

Everyone has certain fundamental principles that they adhere to, but the difference is how much of your beliefs and practices you consider "fundamental" and how much room you leave for personal choice or social progress.  For fundamentalists, virtually everything about life is fundamental and therefore not open to negotiation or change.  I think you would agree that Islam is more all-encompassing in this regard than Christianity, Judaism, etc.  I think it's fair to say that Islam is more susceptible to fundamentalism than most other religions.

It's true that "jihad" has taken on a twisted meaning, but I don't think you can blame the media for that.  Try blaming all the Jihadist movements who engage in violence and terrorism.  The media is just reporting their activities.

"Islamist" may be an invented word, but I think you should be glad of it.  An Islamist is one who perverts the teachings of Islam for their own political and military purposes, usually employing very un-Islamic tactics.  If we could get people to say "Islamist terrorist" instead of "Muslim terrorist" I think it would help a lot.



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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

im in favour of an islamic democracy which upholds shariah law...
Isn't "Islamic democracy" an oxymoron?  Democracy means "the people rule", whereas Islam says that Allah rules.


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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 8:27pm
"I think you would agree that Islam is more all-encompassing in this regard than Christianity, Judaism, etc."
 
I would say that Christians and Jews fail to adhere to the basic tenets of their religion more than Muslims do.  The basic tenets themselves have not changed merely the people who claim to follow them.
 
What is a Jihadist movement? Another twisted meaning....  I practice jihad every single day. I struggle with myself to keep from sinning, feeling envy, hatred, etc....  that is jihad.
 
How would Islamist terrorist help? It is denigrating Islam. Why not just say terrorist, period?  When terrorists of the Christian persuasion commit acts of terrorism I don't see the media calling them Christian terrorists, Christianists, Holy warriors, etc....  They are called terrorists... 
 
I think less ignorance and more education might help.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 8:49pm
Enclosed is a list of "Significant Terrorsist Acts" since 1961 composed by the U.S. Government. These are acts that they consider significant, there are many more that are not listed, but I assumed that everyone would agree this is a valid list.  
 
Korea, India, Colombia, Greece, Spain, the IRA, etc, etc.... and no mention of their religious affliliations.  
 
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm - http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm
 
What I didn't find on this list were Isreali(or should I say Jewish?) terrorist attacks such as the massacre at the Dome of the Rock in 1981, the massacres at Sabre and Shatila in 1982 carried out by Christian and Jewish forces, the assassination of Yitzak Rabin, the attack of the U.S.S. Liberty in 1967, etc...  Interesting...


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 10:10pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Quote Isn't "Islamic democracy" an oxymoron?  Democracy means "the people rule", whereas Islam says that Allah rules.


Only if you assume that Islamic law is simply a set of predefined laws that need to be implemented rather than a combination of laws and largely principles that need to be applied to different situations.

Democracy does not mean the people rule in the literal sense, the people have free choice to elect leaders and representatives to power who rule on there behalf according to a predefined constitution, the "principles" of democracy are not contradictory to the "principles" of Islam.

Its like saying a democracy based on a constitution is an Oxymoron, shariah law is similar to a constitution except we cant amend or change it only learn more about what Allah meant as we our self increase in knowledge. This is how it has always been under a khalifah system [ottoman's are an excellent example of adopting new technologies and adapting as knowledge increases] this is also where saudi arabia went wrong and probably why you thought that an Islamic Democracy is an Oxymoron.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 2:43pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

I would say that Christians and Jews fail to adhere to the basic tenets of their religion more than Muslims do.  The basic tenets themselves have not changed merely the people who claim to follow them.

Can you give me an example or two?  The whole basis of Christianity is that many of the "basic tenets" of Judaism (the ceremonial and civil law) the were fulfilled by Christ and no longer binding on Christians.  Only the moral law (thou shalt not kill, steal, lie, etc.) remains in effect.

Quote How would Islamist terrorist help? It is denigrating Islam. Why not just say terrorist, period?  When terrorists of the Christian persuasion commit acts of terrorism I don't see the media calling them Christian terrorists, Christianists, Holy warriors, etc....  They are called terrorists...

Look down the list of "significant terrorist acts" you provided and count how many times the word "Islam" or Muslim" or "Jihad" appears in the names of the groups responsible for it.  It's not the media that make this association -- it is the explicit and stated motivation of the groups and individuals involved.

Yes, Christians and others do sometimes commit terrorist acts, but they haven't done so "in the name of God" since the Middle Ages.  Do you know any contemporary organizations with names equivalent to "Christian Jihad"?


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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

Its like saying a democracy based on a constitution is an Oxymoron, shariah law is similar to a constitution except we cant amend or change it only learn more about what Allah meant as we our self increase in knowledge.
That's a mighty big "except".  Once again it comes back to what you consider "fundamental".  A constitution lays down only very general principles (somewhat like the "moral law" I alluded to in my reply to Shasta'sAunt); but Sharia is pretty much everything.


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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 6:34am
Originally posted by Shasta' Aunt Shasta' Aunt wrote:

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

How would Islamist terrorist help? It is denigrating Islam. Why not just say terrorist, period?  When terrorists of the Christian persuasion commit acts of terrorism I don't see the media calling them Christian terrorists, Christianists, Holy warriors, etc....  They are called terrorists...

Look down the list of "significant terrorist acts" you provided and count how many times the word "Islam" or Muslim" or "Jihad" appears in the names of the groups responsible for it.  It's not the media that make this association -- it is the explicit and stated motivation of the groups and individuals involved.

I do believe that islamist and muhammedom are made up words and don't agree with them, I think the term is wrong.
 
In my opinion, I don't think Jihadist is made by non believers but those who profess to be muslim and commit such acts.
 
As for the term muslim terrorists, if one calls and profess he/she is muslim, then what are others to suppose think? so yes the media will use this term because the person calls themselves muslim. Please don't come back that muslims wouldn't do those things, perhaps not, but I've heard all that before and its nothing but washing your hands off them. This isn't the thread really to discuss. But if one is professing to be muslim and commits a terrorist act, then that person is a muslim terrorist despite not following islam rightly, (some goes with Christians), but then again the terrorist themselves do since they believe they are defending islam and you're allowed to defend if they other has started and they believe that also. 
 
The media may make up stuff but also the person themselves if they call themselves something then the media will use that.
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 10:35am
"Yes, Christians and others do sometimes commit terrorist acts, but they haven't done so "in the name of God" since the Middle Ages."
 
This is a totally untrue statement and I am amazed you would even say something that could be so easily discredited.  Every act of terrorism committed by the Jewish settlers in Palestine was done so in the name of God. God "gave" them the land so it was/is their God-given right to take it back, no matter what.
 
The KKK committed acts of terrorism in the name of God. Hitler believed he was doing God's work by killing those who killed Jesus.
 
The Branch Davidians in Waco, TX killed their children before committing suicide in the name of God. Reverend Jim Jones murdered numerous children and forced adults to drink poisoned kool aid before committing suicide in the name of God.
 
The Army of God bombed numerous abortion Clinics, shot and killed doctors and workers and threatened anthrax attacks in the name of God.
The Lambs of Christ who also killed a physician who performed abortions.
 
Aum Shinrikyo/Aleph released sarin gas in the Tokyo subways in the name of religion.
 
The Shiv Sena and other Hindu attacks against Muslims and bombings of mosques in India. Usually during the Friday prayers when the mosques are full.
 
Eric Rudolph bombed the Olympics, an abortion clinic, and a gay nightclub in the name of God.
 
There are many more and these have happened in modern history.  All done in the name of God, usually Christian but there are Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and others in the mix.
 
About two months ago I watched a documentary on The Army of God. They are very fervent and believe that by committing acts of terror against those they deem are not doing God's work, they themselves are doing God's work. That they are inspired by the Holy Ghost on where to attack.  They are still active in the U.S. recruiting members and planning....  Where is the media outcry against these Christian terrorists? 
 
Even with Eric Rudolph who was carrying out his attacks in the late 1990's and was not even arrested until 2003, you hear nothing in the media. Nothing. This man is a self-avowed devout Christian who expects to be forgiven and saved and quotes scripture to justify his terrorist actions right here in the United States, but where is Fox news and Bill O'Reilly when it's Matthew 23:28 being quoted instead of Allahu Akbar? Why wasn't this pasted all over the T.V.? 
 
Let's be fair and unbiased and make public all religious affiliations or none at all.  I think people would be surprised at just how many acts are carried out by non-Muslims. Not that they'll ever know....


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 10:52am
"Can you give me an example or two?  The whole basis of Christianity is that many of the "basic tenets" of Judaism (the ceremonial and civil law) the were fulfilled by Christ and no longer binding on Christians.  Only the moral law (thou shalt not kill, steal, lie, etc.) remains in effect."
 
O.K. Let's say I agree that everything God commanded before the New Testament no longer applies so we use only the New Testament.
 
Well, right off my head: divorce is not allowed yet Christians divorce left and right. Adultery and fornication are still sins yet Christians are doing both all over. Lying is still a sin but look how many Christian leaders have been caught lying. Homosexuality, but look how many Christian leaders have been caught not to mention the homosexual churches, etc.... Women are to be quiet in church but there are women preachers, it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven... but the new Christianity teaches that money is good and Christian leaders go on TV to cash in. Turn the other cheek, millions of Iraqis have seen that in action, love thy neighbor, yeah, I feel the love everytime I go out in my hijab or turn on the TV to yet another anti-Islam diatribe. on and on and on....
 
I think it would be easier for you to list what basic tenets of Christianity are still being followed.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"Yes, Christians and others do sometimes commit terrorist acts, but they haven't done so "in the name of God" since the Middle Ages."
 
This is a totally untrue statement and I am amazed you would even say something that could be so easily discredited.  Every act of terrorism committed by the Jewish settlers in Palestine was done so in the name of God. God "gave" them the land so it was/is their God-given right to take it back, no matter what.
...
 
Israel was created by the United Nations, not by God, and their so-called "acts of terrorism" (which I neither support nor condemn) were committed in the name of sovereignty and security, not in the name of God.
 
Hitler's attacks on the Jews were motivated and mainly justified by racism and eugenics, not religion.  It would not have helped a German Jew to renounce his faith or to convert to Christianity.  Hitler did use Christian rhetoric when it suited him, but he kept the details of his "final solution" secret from the German populace precisely because he knew he could never have justified it on Christian principles.
 
The Branch Davidians and the "Reverend" Jim Jones were not terrorists in the usual sense.  They "terrorized" only themselves and each other, not society at large.
 
As for the rest of your examples: yes, there are always exceptions (e.g., the Army of God), and maybe I should not have been so absolute in implying that no Christian ever commits an act of terrorism in the name of the Christian God.  But my point stands.  Look around the world today and count the number of groups dedicated to acts of terror and violence explicitly in the name of Allah.  Now count the groups who do the same in the name of a Christian God, or any other mainstream religion.  The difference is striking.
 
For the record, this is not a criticism of Islam.  Neither of us (I hope) believe that terrorism is compatible with true Islam.  However, if a terrorist says his actions are motivated by his belief in Islam, you can't expect the media not to report that.  The most you can ask is that they make it clear that he is not representative of most Muslims.  I think the word "Islamist" is the best way to make the distinction.


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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"Yes, Christians and others do sometimes commit terrorist acts, but they haven't done so "in the name of God" since the Middle Ages."
 
This is a totally untrue statement and I am amazed you would even say something that could be so easily discredited.  Every act of terrorism committed by the Jewish settlers in Palestine was done so in the name of God. God "gave" them the land so it was/is their God-given right to take it back, no matter what.
...
 
Israel was created by the United Nations, not by God, and their so-called "acts of terrorism" (which I neither support nor condemn) were committed in the name of sovereignty and security, not in the name of God.
 
Hitler's attacks on the Jews were motivated and mainly justified by racism and eugenics, not religion.  It would not have helped a German Jew to renounce his faith or to convert to Christianity.  Hitler did use Christian rhetoric when it suited him, but he kept the details of his "final solution" secret from the German populace precisely because he knew he could never have justified it on Christian principles.
 
The Branch Davidians and the "Reverend" Jim Jones were not terrorists in the usual sense.  They "terrorized" only themselves and each other, not society at large.
 
As for the rest of your examples: yes, there are always exceptions (e.g., the Army of God), and maybe I should not have been so absolute in implying that no Christian ever commits an act of terrorism in the name of the Christian God.  But my point stands.  Look around the world today and count the number of groups dedicated to acts of terror and violence explicitly in the name of Allah.  Now count the groups who do the same in the name of a Christian God, or any other mainstream religion.  The difference is striking.
 
For the record, this is not a criticism of Islam.  Neither of us (I hope) believe that terrorism is compatible with true Islam.  However, if a terrorist says his actions are motivated by his belief in Islam, you can't expect the media not to report that.  The most you can ask is that they make it clear that he is not representative of most Muslims.  I think the word "Islamist" is the best way to make the distinction.
 
Well Ron Webb, here you are defending other religions who commit acts of terror as it not being in the name of God......   hmmmmm I think you just made my point.
 
If you speak to any Zionist they will tell you God gave them Isreal and it is their right to be there, no matter what.
 
If you read Hitler's diaries and journals you will find that Hitler considered himself a very religious Christian who was in fact doing God's work.
 
Even George Bush claims that God, that's the Christian God,  told him to go to war. A war which I am sure future generations will look at as an act of state sponsored terrorism, if not viewed as such already. I am sure most Iraqis see it that way. Yet when people in Iraq fight back they are terrorists.
 
I see a pattern, Palestine is taken from the palestinians and thsoe who fight back are terrorists. iraq is invaded by the U.S. and those who fight back are terrorists.. You no, when the white Christian government was trying to control Africa and justify apartheid, much like Israel now, they labeled the black Africans terrorists.  Nelson Mandela said that the smartest thing and unjust government can do is label it's opposition terrorists, even if it is spreading the terror.
 
What I say to you is look at the motivating factors behind "Muslim" groups who commit acts of terror. Are they doing so to spread Islam or for political reasons also.  Osama bin Ladin wanted the U.S. military out of Saudi Arabia.  The Palestinians, who I do not consider terrorists as they are an occupied nation fighting a military force, want to end the occupation and get their country back.  If you look at each individual act you find undoubtedly find a political motivation, not a religious one.
 
While on the other hand, many of the Christian terror groups I listed have only religious motivation. Christian motivation which they take straight from the Holy Bible.
 
Besides, look at South Africa, a Christian country where there are approximately 1,000,000 rapes and mutilation/murders of women and babies a year. Isn't this terrorism? All of theose good Christian men raping babies to cure their AIDs, then leaving them for dead. What about the Congo where rape and murder/mutilation is happening also. Not terrorism? I think to the women, girls, and babies it is.
 
Perhaps it seems as though there are an exceptionally large number of "Muslim" groups commiting terror acts, but could that be because that's where the western governments are directing all of their attention?  If oil had been found in Timbuktu or Pago Pago instead of the Middle East we'd be over there screwing with their lives and making them hate us too. Then we'd no doubt have other "terrorist" groups after us.
 
I notice you make no comment on the silence of the western media in the face of Christian and other religious terrorism. The obvious hypocrisy.
 
Could it be because Christians do not accept these people as true Christians and therefore do not want to hear that these acts are carried out in the name of God and Christianity?
Gee, that's much the same as Muslims who do not accept terror acts as the acts of true Muslims. No matter why they say they are doing it.  Too bad we don't get the same consideration.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 6:26pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Well Ron Webb, here you are defending other religions who commit acts of terror as it not being in the name of God......   hmmmmm I think you just made my point.

I am not defending other religions.  (I didn't know they needed to be defended here.  Are you attacking them?)  I'm trying to explain why the media associates terrorism with Islam, but not other religions.  The short explanation is that a great many terrorists commit their acts of terror explicitly in the name of Islam.  However, I don't think you understand what I mean by that phrase, so let me spell it out.

I went through the list you helpfully provided of significant terrorist events and identified the (alleged) terrorist groups whose names make explicit reference to Islam or its symbols.  This is just the groups that were active in 2002 and 2003:

Jaish-e-Muhammad
Great Eastern Islamic Raiders� Front
Brigades of the Martyr Abu Hafz al-Masri
Islamic Jihad
Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)
Jemaah Islamiah
Islamist al-Assirat al-Moustaquim
Ansar al-Islam
Al-Aqsa Martyrs� Brigades
Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF)
Al-Ittihad al-Islami
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba
Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Sites
Islamic Front
Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Harakat ul-Jihad-I-Islami

How many Christian (alleged) terrorist groups do you think you could find with names like that?  And how is the media supposed to overlook the Islamic connections when it is in the names themselves?

Quote What I say to you is look at the motivating factors behind "Muslim" groups who commit acts of terror. Are they doing so to spread Islam or for political reasons also.

I agree -- that was my original point.  That is why the made-up term "Islamist" is more appropriate than "Islam" or "Muslim".

Quote Besides, look at South Africa, a Christian country where there are approximately 1,000,000 rapes and mutilation/murders of women and babies a year. Isn't this terrorism?

No, of course not -- not unless the purpose is to intimidate.  Read the definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism

Quote Perhaps it seems as though there are an exceptionally large number of "Muslim" groups commiting terror acts, but could that be because that's where the western governments are directing all of their attention?

Maybe so.  Again, I am neither defending nor supporting them.  I am simply explaining the association with Islam.  It's not the media that makes the association.  It is the terrorists themselves.



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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 6:29am

Is the problem the fact that some of the verses of the Quran and words of Mohammad  can be twisted to allow the Islamists to be violent in the name of Allah?  Some take the verses literally?



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 8:37am
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Is the problem the fact that some of the verses of the Quran and words of Mohammad  can be twisted to allow the Islamists to be violent in the name of Allah?  Some take the verses literally?
 
Maybe so, but that is a separate problem from what I am suggesting.  Let me break the argument into four propositions:

A. There are many passages in the Quran that can be twisted to allow (or even command) violence.
B. There are many Muslims who commit violence in the name of Islam.
C. There are many media reports of violence committed in the name of Islam.
D. There are many non-Muslims who associate violence with Islam.
 
I think you are saying that A causes B.  I am saying that B causes C.  I think we all agree that C causes D.


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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

Is the problem the fact that some of the verses of the Quran and words of Mohammad  can be twisted to allow the Islamists to be violent in the name of Allah?  Some take the verses literally?

 
Just as and as the words of the bible are twisted and made to serve extremists in the Christian sector. It is the mentality that allows zionists to declare, "this land is mine, god gave this land to me" and bulldoze the homes of palestinian innocents.
Seems it is not just limited to followers and deviations of Islam.
But in the end on the Last Day, we will all stand before the Same God, Allah, YHWH, the anglocized Jehovah, However the compassionate and mighty God of Abraham Ishmael and Isaac and answer for our deeds. male and female, black and white, old and young and all in between. All have traveled different paths, and all will come to the same day.


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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 1:41pm
"I think you are saying that A causes B.  I am saying that B causes C.  I think we all agree that C causes D."
 
And yet Arab groups who have nonreligious monikers and claim nothing but a political agenda are still branded Islamic terrorists: Black September, Hamas, even the PLO have been accused of targeting Israelis because they are Jews, not because they are a brutal occupying force.
So I would put forth that the Islamic connection has more to do with perception in the west than any claim these groups may or may not make.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 5:29pm
Are any of the murders and rapes race related?
 
If SA is Christian why are the Christian radio stations being forced to closed?
 
http://www.intouchmission.org/reports/main.htm?http://www.intouchmission.org/reports/archives/cat_south_africa.html - http://www.intouchmission.org/reports/main.htm?http://www.intouchmission.org/reports/archives/cat_south_africa.html
 
Are there any Christian ministers supporting the Christian terrorists?  How about Christian schools that support terrorists?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

And yet Arab groups who have nonreligious monikers and claim nothing but a political agenda are still branded Islamic terrorists: Black September, Hamas, even the PLO have been accused of targeting Israelis because they are Jews, not because they are a brutal occupying force.
Well, that's the problem, isn't it?  Prejudice against Islamic extremists is bound to spill over and taint Muslims generally.  Which is why we need an alternate word for those who pervert Islam into a terrorist religion.  (By the way, "HAMAS" is an acronym of a Arabic phrase which is usually translated as as "Islamic Resistance Movement".)
 
Quote So I would put forth that the Islamic connection has more to do with perception in the west than any claim these groups may or may not make.
And why do you think that perception exists?


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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 2:49pm
"And why do you think that perception exists?"
 
I would guess for the same reason that Native Americans were demonized by the settlers, that black slaves brought here against their will were demonized by whites, that Jews were demonized. that all orientals were demonized by by the West, that the evil communists wanted to destroy the American way of life, and that now Latinos and Muslims are demonized/hated.  We just aren't happy unless we have a bad guy to hate and the best way to make that happen is to make them as evil and threatening as possible.
 
An interesting aside: The Germans were just as much our enemy as the Japanese in World War II, yet how quickly they were forgiven by the general populace. I personally think it's because of the caucasian factor. It's easier to hate someone who looks different and foreign.
 
"Are there any Christian ministers supporting the Christian terrorists?  How about Christian schools that support terrorists?"
 
I remember seeing a post on another Forum that had a link to a video on Youtube that supposedly showed Muslims holding a parade with banners that called for destruction of America. The speakers were supposedly calling for death to Americans, etc....  I watched the video and it was no such thing. It was a celebration of Eid the end of Ramadan.  But, there were literally thousnads of posts calling for death to the Muslims by people who had no clue what was actually being said, just believed what they were told or more truthfully what they wanted to believe.
 
Unless you yourself speak Arabic and actually get to hear what is being spoken on any tape that you see that is not being drowned out by a voice over, you really don't know what is being said.  I have NEVER heard any Imam calling for the death of Americans in a mosque, nor any teachers teaching this in an Islamic school. There may be disreputable people who do so, but I have never heard this.
 
As far as Christian preachers supporting acts of terrorism, it would depend. There are preachers in the Army of God, The Lamb of Christ and others that do so, so yes. I am sure you will immediately claim that these are not true Christians, sounds SO familiar to me. There are also Christian spiritual leaders who call for assassinations and complete death and destruction to Islam and Muslims. It happens all of the time by some very mainstream Christians.
 
If all Muslim Imams were doing the same we would be seeing their faces plastered all over the news as they were being hauled away to Gitmo.


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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 6:38am

LOL!  You are speaking about Pat Robertson and his call for an assasination.  That was really weird wasn't it!!  So foreign to Christianity.

Luckily we don't have the masses supporting these renegade Christians because we understand that Jesus and the gospel is all about LOVE and reconciliation.  Turn the other cheek mentality.
 
I have forgiven the Muslims, but will never forget the sadness I felt seeing all the Muslims cheering in the streets when the twin tower fell. 
 
We have slowly overcome race prejudice, I think this generation is one of the least prejudiced- now we must overcome religious prejudice.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



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