Print Page | Close Window

Fascinating Womanhood

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Culture & Community
Forum Name: Groups : Women (Sisters)
Forum Description: Groups : Women (Sisters)
URL: https://www.islamicity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12700
Printed Date: 06 October 2024 at 2:11am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Fascinating Womanhood
Posted By: Nausheen
Subject: Fascinating Womanhood
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:43pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,

 

In a recent discussion on the appropriateness in women choosing to work outside their homes, the kind of response I received was quite intersting. Recently came across Helen Andelin's work "Fascinating Womanhood".  Sharing a  portion from this work. There are many comments on this book and Helen's approach available on the internet, for and against her philosophy.  She appears to be a devout Christian, and there are few points from her philosophy which a muslim woman may ought to reject, for her religions commitments. Nevertheless, the similarities are way too many. Still I find her views rather very conservative. Only thing is that despite her conservativeness, I found her very close to truth, or rather I should say I agree with most of what she has to say. On this string there may be few who will agree, few who will agree in some parts,  and many who may not  agree at all, owing to the fact that we live in the 21st centuary, where values and perceptions have changed drastically from the time when this lady first began to teach her Fascinating Womanhood course to women.  Feel free to discuss and debate among yourselves, however I jwould make one request to all who wish to comment. This post may be awfully long for you, but please do not jump to conclusions on any portion unless you have read it to the end, jazak Allahu khair.

 

Quote

 

Fascinating Womanhood.

Excerpts from Chapter 21: The Feminine Roles vs. The Working Wife

The moon when it moves from its sphere of night into day, loses its luster, its charm, its very poetry.

 

 The most important way to enhance your femininity is in the home, serving as the wife, mother and homemaker. Here you have a feild in which to grow as a woman. As you love and care for your children, cheerfully devoted yourself to the ordinary chores of the household, and serve as the understanding wife, you acquire gentle feminine traits. Yer, in spite of this ideal feminine workshop, women are moving away from the home into the working world. Let's take a look:

The U.S. Department of labor reports that 70% of all mothers are employed outside the home - either ful-time or part-time. Of those who are married, 68.2% are employed outside the home. Of mothers with chldren younger than a year old, 53.8% are employed outside the home (2005 statistics). These figures do not include women working in home industries or a family business, helping on the farm, or baby-sitting children of other mothers.

 

When Women are Justified in Working

 

If you are widowed, divorced, single, or your husband is disabled, you may be justified in working. It depends on your need for money. If you are married and your husband is physicallt able, you are justified in the following situations:

 

1. Compelling Emergencies: You are justified in working if a financial emergency give you no alternative. In this case, when you work because you have to, the family more easily accepts the situation. They may even consider your working a noble sacrifice. In a situation such as this, if the family works through the crisis together, little harm results.

 

2. Furthering the Husband's Education and Training: If your husband is attending college or taining for a career you may be justified in working, especually if he has no other alternative to secure an education. Since his training will prepare him to provide a more adequate living, and since your situation is only temorary, you may be justified in helping him reach his goal. This depends on the number of children, their age, and their care while you work.

Beware of this danger, however: If you help your husband through school there's a temptation to continue after he graduates. He'll need to get established. You'll need many things after going without for so long. Is there any harm in working a little longer? Perhaps not, but after the necessities you add a few comforts, then luxuries. Soon you become acostomed to the extra income, then dependent on it. This is one of the ways mothers become trappped into a lifetime of working.

 

3. The Older Woman: If your children are married and you have time on your hands, you may wnat to work to occupy your time. Useful employment may seem better than ideling away your time on things of no importance. In this case, you may be justified in working but consider the following:

If you are married you still have a household to run and a husband to care for. Your married children may need you. If you are tied to employment, you may not be available when needed. Your influence is important in the lives of your grandchildren. You may also be needed in the community, giveing benevolent service. Your devotion to your household, family, and charity enhances feminine charm, whereas employment outside the home does little of nothing for it.

 

 

When Women are not Justified in Working

 

1. To Ease the Pinch: You may not have enough money to cover expenses. There are too many things you need and can't afford. You grow tired if never having enough money, so you seek employment, perhaps with your husband's approval. The problem wth gettting a job is that its not worth the price you pay. Your presence in the home is worth far more. Instead of going to work, cut expenses - be thrifty.

 

2. For Luxuries: You may work for additional comforts, luxuries and conveniences, or you may want greater advantages for your children - music lessons, college and better clothes. Justified as these desires may seem, the sacrifice is too great. Its better to trim the luxuries.

 

3. When you are Bored at Home: You may be bored with the menial tasks of houskeeping and tending children. You seek relief in the exciting world of work. Your husband may support the idea, to keep you happy. And it may end your boredome, and make your happy, temporarily. The problem is that you are buying happiness at the expense of your family. You are putting your desires ahead of their needs. This is never justified.

 

4. To do Something Important: You may feel that what your are doing at home day-to-day is relatively unimportant, and that man have the more important jobs. Noble contributions to mankind, you may reason, are made in the fields of science, industry, government of the arts.

Women who think this have a false notion. The exaggerate the importance of a man's work, and underestimate the importance of the woman's work in the home. Noble as the contributions of men are, they do not surpass a well-brought-up family. A doctor spends his time saving lives. You, on the other hand, in the simple routine of your home, are saving souls. Learn to see the distant scene, how your patient devotion to the family produces men and women of worht, the greatest contribution to any society.

 

5. To Ease the Load for the Man: When you see your husband under pressure and strain, concerned about meeting expenses for a growing family, you may feel it your duty to help him by getting a job. Benevolent as this seems, it is not justified or necessary; God blessed the man with strength, endurance and the emotional makeup for his work. Rather than share his burden, strengthen him for his work. Give him appreciation. This builds his confidence and helps him successd in his work. Ease his burdens at home by reducing demands on his time and money, and by providing a peaceful home life where he can be renewed.

 

Careers

 

If you have talent as an artist, writer, designer, actress, singer, scientist, on in the techinial fields, should you pursue a career? Think twice before you take this step. Your foremost duty is to your marriage and family. Here you must succeed.  A career may sidetrack you from your family. Not only will your career demand your time, but your interest, and sometimes your soul. if your husband and family must be second place, you are making an unwise choice. The price you pay is too high. Listen to those who have had experience:

 

Taylor Caldwell

 The late Taylor Caldwell, on of the most widely read authors in the English language, made the following statement to the press: "There is no solid satisfaction in any career for a woman like myself. There is no home, no true freedom, no hope, no joy, no expectation for tomorrow, no contentment. I would rather cook a meal for a man and bring him his slippers and feel myself in the protection of his arms than have all the citations and awards I have received worldwide, including the Ribbon of Legion of Honor and my property and my bank accounts. They mean nothing to me and I am only one among the millions of sad women like myself."

 

Beverly Sills

Beverly Sills, the well known opera star and impresario, recently addressed Graduating Students of Barnard College in New York city. She stateed: "Women are told today they can have it all - career, marriage, children. You need a total commitment to make it work. Take a close look at your child. He doesn't want you to be bright, talented, chic or smart - any of those things. He just wants you to love him. He will be the one who pays the price for your wanting to have it all. Think carefully about having that baby. Not to have it would be a great loss. To have it too late greatly increases the health hazards for you and the child. To have it without a commitment to it would be a great tragedy."

 

A Career Woman Writes

" I am in my early thirties, single, a corporate officer, and executive. I serve on three board of directors, one a national organization. With all my customer contacts, employee supervision, and peer contact, my total contribution does not constitute a drop in the bucket to what a wife and mother contributed to society. She directly affects the mental outlook of her husbad and children. She has the power to make her home heaven or hell. That's what I call woman power."

 

My Own Career (ie Helen Andelin - the author's career and comments)

Several years ago I received a letter from a lady in Huntsville, Alabama that read: "Mrs Andelin, you are fooling yourself. You tell women to stay home and run their household and not have a career but you are the most professional of all women. In fact you are a business woman par excellence. Hence, your fulfilment. All marriages of my acquaintance where wives are professionals are stable marriages. Husbands of stay-at-home wives are blatantly unfaithful with secretaries with whom they have something in common. They say their house-frau wives bore them to death. Many women follow your recipe and it doesn't work anymore in the twentieth century".

Here is my answer:

 "For twenty years I was a full-time homemaker. I was the typical stay-at-home wive and mother, with only a few small interests outside the home. I loved to clean, cook, baked bread, and try to look pretty. I looked forward with great anticipation to the birth of a baby. My husband often refers to the beautiful bassinet I prepared for our third child, with handpquilted pink satin lining, quilted heart inside the hood, ruffles bows and sheer skirt. He said it was such a visual demonstration of the welcome I was preparing for the little one.

"Although I had a full schedule of homemaking duties, I spent time with the children. I read them stories, taught them crafts, and kept a watch over their playing. On summer afternoons I washed their faces, combed their hair, put my baby in a carriage, and took them for a walk in the park. There was no prouder mother anywhere.

"We lived in a cold climate so I was sometimes isolated at home for two weeks at a time. But I read a lot - marvelous books that helped shaped my philosophy of life. I began to be a better person, a more interesting one. The world seemed broad to me. Live was exciting to me and I could not understand why anyone could be bored. When I was tired of reading, I painted pictures for my children's rooms or decorated my house. On summer mornings I went outside in the sunshine, sat on a box, and watched my children play or helped them dig in dirt. I was enjoying life and felt important.

"Then, we moved to California and lived in the country. We had eight children by now, all living at home. Shortly after my eighth child was born, I looked out the living room window and said to myself, 'This is the happiest day of my life.' I had everything worthwhile-eight adorable children, a husband who loved me, and good friends. I worked hard but it didn't matter. We had financial problems but this is life. In the evening my husband and I wenr for walks down a country lane. He confided his dreams, problems, and his feelings for me. His world was my world. I didn't think of anything else. I lived for him and the children.

"In the business world he had plenty of  chances to notice secretaries if he had wanted to. But I never worried. He spent his spare time at home and when away, hurried home a day or so early. A woman knows when she  is secure in her husband's love and I felt secure. When I was away for a week he put my shoes by the back door so he could look at them every time he went outside. He wrote to me, "you are the joy of my life.' But I wasn't a dull frau wife. I was an interesting person.

"Then I began teaching Fascinating Womanhood, sharing my secrets of married happiness with women in need. My classes were successful and grew rapidly. This gave me the impetus to write my book. It became widely known and I became more involved. But I didn't look on it as a career. To me it was a mission, a service.

"Fascinating Womanhood became more widely known. A career woman would have envied my position or importance and acclaim, would have wondered why I didn't glory in it. I became more involved, not knowing how to reverse the situtation, responding to demands with a spirit of sacrifice. I confined officework to home and travelled only occasionally, but I was definitely over my head in this work.

"Call me what you like, business executive, career woman, or working wife, but I never totally looked at it this way. To me it has been a mission of charity. It was a unique work which had to be done by a woman. Many lives have changed for the better. The personal sacrifice has been well worth it. But I always put my marriage and family first. This is no doubt why they survived."

 

Several years ago I received a letter from a lady who challenged my ideas about women and careers. Here is her story:

 

"During the fifteen years I worked at home I felt guilty and dreamed of the time I could be a full-time homemaker like my mother was. When my husband finally earned enough money I quit.  At first I was elated. It was exciting doing all the things I never had time to do before, but soon I ran out of things to do and found I was not really interested in them after all. My years of working double roles had forced me to be organized and efficient. I got my work out of the way quickly, my house sparkling clean and cooked gourmet meals but there were empty afternoons. There was never a need to rush, plenty of time tomorrow for what I didn't do today. I quit wearing makeup and sat around in an old robe. Why should I be all dressed up and nowhere to go?

"I took classes in macram� but dropped out because of boredom. The women's small talk of recipes and their cute kids seemed unimportant compared to balance sheets and sales motivation discussions of my former job. I felt puzzled over my feelings. I had crying spells, became resentul, depressed and sarcastic. My husband responded with a growing distance. My young son did not seem to care if I was home or not. He liked hamburgers better than may gourmet meals.

"Things worsened untill my husband and son suggested I get a job again. They wanted me, above all, to be happy. Working seemed the right route for me, regardless of what my mother did. I got a part-time job and everything straightened out. I am happy now and so is my family".

 

My comments are these: If a woman has only one child and he is eight years of age or older, there is no reason she can't get a partime job if she wants to. But it isn't the only solution or the best one. If she were creative she could have made more of her marriage and life in the home, and given service to the community.

She accused her homemaker friends of small talk about recipes and their cute kids. This is somewhat true, but what makes her think balance sheets and sales motivation discussions are more interesting, or evem more important? And not all homemakers engage in small talk. A Hollywood talk show director told me the following: "In my ten-year experience talking to thousands of women in my radio audience, I find the housewife more interesting and more widely read than the career woman. I assume this must be because she has more time to read."

 

End of Quote

 

____________________________________________________

 

Some of my comments:

Helen's view is that a woman's primary role is of a wife, a mother and a homemaker. If she does not succeed in these, then even if she has a successful career, she has failed in being a complete woman. Her book is dedicated to ways in which a woman can succeed in this primary role. The reasons for each point she asserts are explained very carefully, and one may need to read the entire work to get a close picture. However it is not necessary for you to do that unless you are a woman, and you agree in the said as a woman's primary role, willing to make the sacrifices it takes to be successful in this role.

 



-------------
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]



Replies:
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 1:50am
Nausheen,
 
This is quite fascinating.. its like back in the 1950s here in the US.
 
If she does not succeed in these, then even if she has a successful career, she has failed in being a complete woman. 
 
Hmm you know that is a big statement.. not being a "complete woman." Its like there is a box and only one size fits all.. and that leaves for no variety and circumstance.
 
The way things are... its something that seems to be missing in all of this:
why are we always blaming the women??? How many men, Muslims in partucular are not fulfilling their duties so women DO NOT have to work.
 
Most women work cause really, there is no choice. That is the way of the world. We call it "domestic" duties. Yeah go check out in other countries, they do that, and take care of the animals, and the farm while the men are off. Women's work never ends! They are up early and go to bed late.
 
Its like they live in this 1950s middle class  "utopia" and have not realized that it is not coming back.
 
And you know why women left the "home." Besides basic economics that poor women have always worked..Because you know what, the men in their lives devalued their "work" at home.
 
So when they went to work during WWII (casue everyone had to) they were like wow... I am VALUED.
 
So you know,  we need to educate the men on the value of women and thr work they do. Not just put them down for it and think that women do not work. Even the moms I know who stay at home. .they work all the time. it never ends..
 
Unfurtunately.. we are a society of work and production at all levels. Work work work...
 
 
 


-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 8:43am
Marie Curie: developed a method to isolate radium in order to better study its properties, a discovery which paved the way for cancer therapy
 
Maria Mayer:  famous for her work on the shell structure of the atom and determined the shell configuration for where the electrons are placed. Her model is the one most teachers use within the classroom to explain the composition of the atom. She also assisted on the atomic bomb project, and received a Nobel Prize for her contribution in the separation of the isotopes of uranium.
 
Gertrude B. Elion: was responsible for discovering many anti-cancer drugs and won a Nobel Prize for her work.
 
Dorothy Hodgkin: received the 1964 Nobel Prize in chemistry for determining the structure of biochemical compounds (particularly of vitamin B12) used to control pernicious anemia. In 1933 she and J. D. Bernal made the first X-ray photograph of a protein
 
Barbara McClintock: discovered that certain genetic material, �transposable elements,� shifted its location in the chromosomes from generation to generation. At first ignored, her research was later recognized as a major contribution to DNA research. In 1983 she was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.
 
Virginia Apgar: specialized in anesthesia and childbirth. She invented the Newborn Scoring System, also called the Apgar Score, in 1949 that assessed the health of newborns. In 1959, Apgar was appointed the Director of the March of Dimes.
 
Patricia Bath: developed the Cataract Laserphaco Probe. The probe, patented in 1988, is designed to use the power of a laser to quickly and painlessly vaporize cataracts from patients� eyes, replacing the more common method of using a grinding, drill-like device to remove the afflictions. With another invention, Bath was able to restore sight to people who had been blind for over 30 years.
 
Bessie Blount: patented a device, in 1951, that allowed amputees to feed themselves.
 
Helen Free: invented the home diabetes test
 
Lillian Gilbreth: was an industrial engineer for General Electric and worked on improving kitchen designs. Gilbreth interviewed over 4,000 women to design the proper height for stoves, sinks, and other kitchen fixtures. In 1966, she became the fist women to be elected to the National Academy of Engineering.
 
Ada Lovelace: wrote a scientific paper in 1843 that anticipated the development of computer software, artificial intelligence and computer music.  She devised a method of using punchcards to calculate Bernoulli numbers, becoming the first computer programmer.
 
Alice Parker: invented a new and improved gas heating furnace that provided central heating.
 
Patsy Sherman: invented Scotchgard
 
Ann Tsukamoto: is the co-patentee of a process to isolate the human stem cell.
 
The next time you get an x-ray, take anti-biotics, know someone recieving treatment for cancer, or use the computer you should remember these women, and way too many more to list, who chose a path not quite so domestic.
 


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 9:07am
One more note: the last thing I personally would do is compare Islam and Christianity when speaking of women's rights. Christianity grants no rights to women and places most of the blame for acts of evil squarely on the shoulders of women. Eve was responsible for Adam sinning, Lot's daughters got him drunk and forced him to commit incest, Herodias conspired to behead John the Baptist by using her own daughter in a sexual dance for Herod, it goes on and on.
 
 Adam blaming Eve:
Genesis 3:12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me�she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
 
Lot's daughters:
Genesis 19:33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

 34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

 36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=19&version=31#fen-NIV-495g - g ] ; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi [ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=19&version=31#fen-NIV-496h - h ] ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.

Herodias tricks herod into killing John the Baptist:
Matthew 14:6But when Herod's birthday was kept, the daughter of Herodias danced before them, and pleased Herod.

 7Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she would ask.

 8And she, being before instructed of her mother, said, Give me here John Baptist's head in a charger.

9And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her.
 
Women are considered cursed in Christianity, that is why they have a menses and why they have such pain during childbirth...
 
Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Nausheen,
 
This is quite fascinating.. its like back in the 1950s here in the US.
 
If she does not succeed in these, then even if she has a successful career, she has failed in being a complete woman. 
 
 
Most women work cause really, there is no choice. That is the way of the world.  
 
 
 
Yes, exactly!
I was thinking that, that was the first thing that came to mind after reading. Some women have to work there is no choice, if your a single parent, how do you provide for your kids, provide a roof over their heads? if you don't do that then you're seen as a failure also Confused


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 9:23pm
>>>So you know,  we need to educate the men on the value of women and thr work they do. Not just put them down for it and think that women do not work. Even the moms I know who stay at home. .they work all the time. it never ends.. <<<
 
If you had read the whole thing carefully Hayfa, or perhaps you missed this point - It has been mentioned in the writing that the woman's job at home has been devalued by herself, and she should not do it, because it is of more value than what men do outside the homes.
And just a small comments on this above note of yours - who do you think is this "we" educating men. In my opinion, this should be the women. Because mothers are best teachers!
 
Further you can make the way a man thinks about you, by being a certain person, and behaving in a certain way. - Sounds too traditional and old fashioned, but I know plenty of women who have their way with their husbands, and they don't have to be cunning, rude, beligerent etc ... they just be "women"
 
And yes, if you've failed as a mother, and succeeded as a career woman its worse than if you succeeded as a mother but failed in your career. Think about it. If you've put your career before your kids the kids are going to suffer and that makes the society suffer, when they grow up.
If you put your career  before the husband, that makes the marriage suffer, and in turn makes the society suffer.
 
So it all returns to how you prioritise.
 
 


-------------
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 10:40pm

I recently sat in a lecture at UCLA by Angela Davis a famous black author and former black panther and in the midst of the discussion we discussed "womanhood" and what women need to do to get in touch with themselves (of course her focus was primarily black women but I thought the essentials could relate universally to all women). After sitting in the lecture some of the professors and some of the researchers discussed the issues of family and such and one of the main issues that came up was about the fluidity of roles men and women have in today's changing world.

 
Women's roles at home have been devalued for a long time and this is generalized across the board. Of course socially women have been devalued by elitist men and have been socially ostracized  for a long time. I don't think a woman's essence can be tied at the home however. The essence of a woman is beyond the materialistic home or her role as a mother. I believe the essence of womanhood is the accumilation of all the personal qualities both external and internal, in addition to the qualities she learns along the way. A woman's role is not just being a mother. To limit a woman to being a mother, and caregiver would rule out the other essential qualities that she has obtained throughout her life besides, calling a woman a mother and caregiver does not do her justice for what injustice she has experienced for a long time.
 
In my personal opinion society has changed. To live decent especially in the classist society we live in whether Western or Eastern people need to make a decent living. This is not about buying lavish things but to actually live a comfortable life where struggles are not a concern. Of course the family is important but this is why couples need to have an understanding before there is the discussion of having kids. Marriage is a partnership and associated with this is the ability to plan, discuss, and know what each other wants to acheive.
 
Motherhood or Fatherhood wont save you if your family can't eat....
 
I see so many families struggling and eventually go on givernment assistance when they don't have to, again poor planning. Failure to be a good parent is also failure in maintaining one's responsibilities and losing sight of what is important. My mother worked long hours but was still able to provide the essential things I needed: food, clothing, shelter, love. But she WORKED! It's not impossible.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 5:58am
And yes, if you've failed as a mother, and succeeded as a career woman its worse than if you succeeded as a mother but failed in your career.
 
Ahh but Nausheen, you are making it one of the other... and really define "career?" I know plenty of low income women who go work at stores, clean houses etc. Is that a "career" in your eyes? You need to get out of the books and meet average women, the working poor and middle class.
 
As Israfil says.. without the food and shelter... well how do you define successful parenthood?  Would not most women go work so their children's bellies are not empty?
 
So in the utopia world that does not exist... do you think it is even worth it for women to go to college? Their daughters? After all they don't need it.. they will stay home, raise the kids, kids off to school and then what? WHy bother to educate the girls then?
 
I remember this story, of a woman who was an Afgan refugee in Pakistan. Her husband was disabled and could not work. She had to work.. and as a refugee her "work" was to beg.  She had been "taken care of" and then that was gone and her choices are to work and put her children to work..
 
I do know some people who can afford to not work who do.. but really.. how many people are like that? Really.
 
When I was raised, it was not about what "career" I would choose, but how to pay the bills and survive.
 
and maybe, just maybe, we women do like using our brains.. my talents and my good mind are from Allah.  We are no different from men in that regard. We like to use our minds, to excel. Can I raise kids and do other things, absolutely.
 
And I don't beieve all women are meant or should be mothers.. I don't believe that . In fact there are a number of women that don't have that "nurturing" instinct. Ar they "less then" for not having it? Not really.  


-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 6:52pm
"And I don't beieve all women are meant or should be mothers.. I don't believe that . In fact there are a number of women that don't have that "nurturing" instinct. Ar they "less then" for not having it? Not really."
 
I am 100% sure not all women should be mothers. There have been a number of high, and not so high, profile cases in the States of mothers committing infanticide.  In most of the cases the women were stay at home mothers who were isolated and completely overwhelmed. They could not take the pressure and snapped.
 
I believe there are women who are more suited to homemaking and child rearing, there are some women who are more suited to pursue their happiness outside of the home, and there are some women who can do both.  It should be the choice of the woman which path she chooses and what will make her happy.
 
What I took exception to was the original post:
"2. Puting his needs before others (herself, home and children) - manytimes in busy households this is undermined, because she is equally busy, working and tired. Women by nature have the tendency to care and comfort. It is missing in our homes and  social set-ups where women are working.
3. to not assert herself as equal in many qualities - working women have the ability ot excel, and not every couple is able to handle this with grace - rather not every working woman thinks she may be stepping over her husband's sensitiviteis if she asserts herself in a certain ways. 
 
I am not debating that a woman is going to lose ALL her feminity if she goes out to earn a living - but it affects her, when she is away from home for same number of hours as her husband, and is facing similar challenges of the world as himself she is not the same woman as one who spends her time in more feminine chores"
 
I don't know about you, but the sisters I know who have children are just as tired and worn out by the end of the day as the sisters who work outside. Some even more so because when you are working outside the home at least you get a break.  And many stay at home moms I know are desperate for adult company and conversation. I think using your mind to excel at something you enjoy doing is a stimulant rather than exhausting.
 
Also, I am not sure where you got the notion that Allah did not create women equal to men. I would really like to see this from the Quran, because I have posted numerous Ayat that state just the opposite except for the area of maintenance, which is not something inherent in our creation but an obligation placed on men. 
 
What exactly are feminine chores? Cleaning the toilet and taking out the trash?  Who labeled household chores as feminine? I think men can wash dishes and vacuum just as well as women. They may not like to, but hey, neither do most women.
 
"And just a small comments on this above note of yours - who do you think is this "we" educating men. In my opinion, this should be the women. Because mothers are best teachers! "
 
But if you are teaching them that a woman's place is in the home where she is inferior to men and must not assert herself or excel, what are you really teaching them?


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 4:57am
My own 2 cents. Though I may agree slightly with 1 or 2 things the lady in the article says . . . My opinion is that motherhood/domestic work is PART of bieng a woman . . .however it does not define womanhood. I also think it is unfair to label housewive's as more feminine since I think it degrades those who work. . . BOTH are essentially doing a good job and contributing in thier own ways. . . One cannot say what is better. Not bieng a mother does not mean a woman is incomplete. . . I also dont think that women who sew, bake cookies and cook are any more feminine that don't ! Tongue
 
However I do think that a lot of ppl have started downplaying the role/importance of housewives' and stay-at-home moms, and dont consider thier job as a proper one. Although they do more work then those men/women who have a career.


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 7:26am
I like that question, what exactly is feminine chores?
 
It's just house cleaning, that is done by either gender, it's just that women majority do the house cleaning. I read a report some time ago, this year, that while men have increased their time to do house cleaning, women are still doing much of it.


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 8:55am
Originally posted by Angel Angel wrote:

I like that question, what exactly is feminine chores?
 
It's just house cleaning, that is done by either gender, it's just that women majority do the house cleaning. I read a report some time ago, this year, that while men have increased their time to do house cleaning, women are still doing much of it.
 
But when did they become "feminine" chores?  I don't think I have personally ever known a woman who woke up in the morning and felt compelled to clean the bathroom because she wanted to feel more feminine.
 
I suspect in many countries tilling the fields, planting, farming, clearing the land, selling charcoal and wood, are considered feminine chores because women are the ones who do them. Does this make them more masculine? I don't think so, I think they do what they have to do to survive.
 
 


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 7:31am
I have no idea, that question is the first time I heard, even here at IC Smile
Like I mentioned I think its because women majority do the house cleaning, look after the kids, cook, mend clothes - not because they want to feel feminine.
 
And yes you're right women do attend the fields and farm the land, so feminine chores is a misrepresentation.


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 4:59am
 
Quote
 
But when did they become "feminine" chores?  I don't think I have personally ever known a woman who woke up in the morning and felt compelled to clean the bathroom because she wanted to feel more feminine.
 
 
 
LOL
 
Nothing would make one feel less feminine than having to scrub the toilet-bowl.


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 8:50am
 I don't think I have personally ever known a woman who woke up in the morning and felt compelled to clean the bathroom because she wanted to feel more feminine.
 
i dunno.. this is the highlight of my most feminine moments. Maybe most women fogot to do their make-up and dress up before they clean Big%20smile


-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

 I don't think I have personally ever known a woman who woke up in the morning and felt compelled to clean the bathroom because she wanted to feel more feminine.
 
i dunno.. this is the highlight of my most feminine moments. Maybe most women fogot to do their make-up and dress up before they clean Big%20smile
 
 
I wear my pearls....


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 2:46pm
Sad that my earlier post was deleted some how. But I'm curious to know how osme of you "generderize" work as feminine where there is no proven biological relationship.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 8:36am
True Israfil...

-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:46am
hey Israfil, I don't know who came up with that term, but us in this current talk on page 2 we agree with you, just making light of it. Wink
 
Your query needs to be put to the original poster.


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 8:04pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
Thank you gilrs for your insightful comments. I agree that not all women should be mothers. Because children are a trust from Allah, and those who are not ready to fulfil that trust better don't indulge. A neglected or unhealthy  childhood, may only contribute problem adults to tomorrow's society.
 
 


-------------
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 07 July 2008 at 8:28pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
Israfil, I can talk on the phone, prepare dinner and change a diaper all at the same time. And won't feel a bit of stress. Replace me with my husband in the same scenario and he will switch the stove off, tell the person on the other end of the phone he will call back in a few minutes, then change the diaper - and that is normal. If you know men who can easily multi-task I don't have a debate there, but it is scientifically proved that men and women use different brain centers to execute same jobs. Also the connection between the left and right brain of a woman is quicker than that of a man.  (Thus women are far better than men in multitasking)
Since there is so much difference in the "functioning of the brain" of men and women, they have different temperaments and apptitudes towards same jobs. 
Having said that ....  A woman can manuver a satellite, and a man can bake a cake. And am sure it wont take a rocket scientist to figure that.  However for the success of any project we select people according to their apptitude.  Societies in olden days recognised women as better in maitaining a household. - They just had a better apptitude (altho, certainly today's woman is no good), and am sure if a boy is trained to hang clothes neatly on a dryline even he can do that. But olden societies held the philosophy that a boy can do better on other jobs if he was trained there, eg, mowing a lawn, building a bookshelf in the living room, fixing a leaking faucet etc.  However there is no debate about the intelligence of a human brain. Given the right training any one can acquire any skill.
 
Today if you think switching roles is no big deal, I wont argue. However I do argue that household is a "full time job" and in the today's western society NOONE, neither the man or the woman is willing to devote full-time.  People have the illusion of being able to manage, but in reality they are making a mess of things there ...
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 1:52am
Originally posted by Nausheen Nausheen wrote:

(altho, certainly today's woman is no good 
 
 
 
   Ouch


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 8:54pm
Nausheen I'm quite aware of the neurological functions between males and females. However, one cannot deny historically that many cultures including Muslim civilization ruled under the culture of patriarchy. The prophet was not an ignorant man I'm sure he was well aware of the traditions and the culture. He couldn't possibly change everything outside the divine mandate, therefore he worked within it. This sounds apologetic to the perpetuation of patriarchy in Bedouin-Arab societies then but that is the only reason I have. With that said, one cannot help but wonder why this idea, this women staying home men work is defensible. I know it's in the Qur'an but if we look outside in the big picture you Nausheen would realize that a lot of this stems from the rule of patriarchy.
 
Many researcher shave found that even full-time mothers are doing more work than men. This has nothing to do with women doing full-time housework, this has to do with the entire spectrum of the family makeup. Multi-tasking is a good thing but it gives a woman no credit if there is inequality in the home. A stay-at-home mother in western society is unrealistic right now. as far as the societies of the "olden days" you mentioned, in those times that family structure worked because women had less rights as men at those times-even in the times of Muhammad women still did not have the same opportunities as women of today even in Muslim countries.
 
Women have more opportunities to have careers, have a good life and start a family on their own terms. women shouldn't be compelled neither by religionist nor conservatives to stay at home. I believe both men and women need to function as a unit and plan. But again I can only repeat myself and say that whole woman stay home man work thing especially in the U.S. is a no-go for me. She needs to be educated (both street wise and academically), ambitious, goal-oriented, insightful, caring, loving, faithful, mature, sensitive etc. not too many women have these qualities. This is why i'm sure i'll stay single for a loooooooong time.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

 
 
 But again I can only repeat myself and say that whole woman stay home man work thing especially in the U.S. is a no-go for me.
 
So having to earn/work and help with the finances of the house is your requirement for a future wife?
 


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 9:22pm

She needs to help yes just like I help. I believe in 50-50 responsibility I don't believe a man "takes care of his wife" I don't believe in the patriarchal structures of marriage as practiced in many muslim countries. I believe in a woman's independence not only at home but in the working world. I will be just as helpful around the house and at work as she is. I will not allow the load to shift one way or the other. I strictly believe in 50-50 share the load mentality.



Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

She needs to help yes just like I help. I believe in 50-50 responsibility I don't believe a man "takes care of his wife" I don't believe in the patriarchal structures of marriage as practiced in many muslim countries. I believe in a woman's independence not only at home but in the working world. I will be just as helpful around the house and at work as she is. I will not allow the load to shift one way or the other. I strictly believe in 50-50 share the load mentality.

 
Are you gonna be pregnant for 50% of the time?


-------------
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 12:04am
Well, there are men who psychologically share effects of birth with their spouses such as (morning sickness etc). Mentally not physically I will share in the responsibility of going through the pregnancy because I want to not because its a "male chore." i think its important that to understood motherhood the father need to be there with his wife every step of the way to ensure the path to life for the child to be is righteous and not hindered. So, to answer your question yes.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 2:45am

Quote
 
Are you gonna be pregnant for 50% of the time?
 
 LOL
 
No offence Israfil ! Smile


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net