Love as evil
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Topic: Love as evil
Posted By: gokitty
Subject: Love as evil
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 7:55pm
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I am currently reading the Qur�an, and I am hoping to find a venue where I can ask questions to get different perspectives. Your comments are appreciated! This passage got me thinking. I am interested in the relationship of those who do good and wrong-doers. As an example, someone you love works against God � is to love them to help them? Is that not against God�s Will? I could assume possible directions: That you are held faultless as you yourself are good in God�s eyes, or that you are at fault if you do not make a decision to break off the relationship with the wrong-doer. Can love, in its most sincere form, be an affront to God in certain situations? |
Replies:
Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 6:31am
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Salam Qokitty
In the given verse, we are not ordered not to help unbelievers. The verse simply says that after the unbelievers are in hell, nothing will save them. At that time, they will not find any helpers. But in this world, we are encouraged to love and help unbelievers. The most genuine form of love and help would be to call them towards the righteous path. So if someone you love works against God, you can love them and help them, and the best form of help would be calling them towards God.
Hence the relationship between those who do good and wrong-doers is that those who do good call wrong doers to the right path. They try to convert wrong doers into good people. This form of love and help can never be an affront to God in any situation
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Posted By: fntoy.com
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 3:07pm
this is something new for ne
------------------------------- support @ fntoy.com |
Posted By: afeefa
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 2:43am
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assalamualaikum gokitty, In this beautiful verse of quran, Allah swt mentions the prayer of the righteous people, the people who are conscious about their lord and who intend to do good and make sure that by their acts they dont earn a sin or Allahs displeasure,these people earnestly strive to do good. they would never help anyone in doin acts of evil, for they will have a share in that evil done. in the verse:"our lord! any whom thou dost admist to the fire, truly thou coverest with shame,and never will wrongdoers find any helpers!", it is said that the wrongdoers will never find helpers, but the wrongdoers can have the other wrongdoers as helpers as long as they have a leave to do evil, ".........truly thou coverest with shame..." but they can never have helpers against Allah, when they are being punished by Him.truly they will b covered with shame n will face all the punishments being helpless!! May Allah guide us all to righteous path. ameen |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 6:44pm
Salam,
most of us deal with this reality on a day to day basis, I am not sure if we deal with it justly or not.
I think the major goal of life is to seek the pleasure of Allah, does that come at some cost, you bet.
Does that mean we cut off ties with eveyone we see doing wrong, that's a personal decision, if one seeks Allah's pleasure by participating with those who obey Allah or otherewise..........
I will use a real example here.
In a business deal I had a chance to make a lot of money by simply selling Jesus and virgin Mary's statues which are adored and prayed to by my Catholic customers. I decided not to be part of that act in anyway, so I decided against it, lost my business, no regret. Pleasure of Allah was priority for me, not His anger.
Quran is clear about whre to draw the line.
3:57....for God does not love evildoers
The danger of being in the company of evil doers is great by participating with them equals encouraging them, and a way of approvel of what they do, thus those acts don't seem so bad, and you know what happens next.
Quran Says: 6:129 And in this manner do We cause evildoers to seduce one another by means of their (evil] doings.
What do we do when we see a loved one walking toward a danger, we warn and stop them, because we don't want them to be hurt. We need to keep that in mind, as the loss of the hereafter is much much greater then the loss here.
Please correct me if I am wrong?
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
gokitty wrote:Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 6:57am
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"Jesus and virgin Mary's statues which are adored and prayed to by my Catholic customers."
Catholics do not adore and pray to statues. Get your 'facts' straight Hasan. That's exactly the same as me seeing you as adoring and worshipping the Ka-ba.
That's what it looks like, though I know it's not the reality.
You were wrong and in need of correction :-).
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 6:18pm
Gulliver,
I am surprised at your comments, how can I make such a mistake, my own wife is a former Catholic and Evangalist. In my Catholic side of family kneeling and praying in front of statues of Virgin Mary, Jesus or even Baby Jesus and of the Saints is a standard practice. I have lived among the Hispanic community near Mexican borader where most of the people are Catholics. They have statues of not just Jesus and Mary but many others too. To whom they adore, kneel and pray. Virgin de Gudalupe is the one famous in this area, so they have her statues, that is different then to say the Virgin of San Joan. They pray to her. Now if you ask them they say they are praying through her to God. But if you kneel down in front of a statue of virgin Mary, kiss it and pray, and not even turn around in front of them so your back would not face them (such is a disrespect to them), you are telling me that's not so?
What's the difference between a Hindu doing the same in front of one of their statues, and claiming the same?
Now as far as the Kaba, I have not seen it ( I hope I visit it one day) nor I have a miniature kaba in front of me when I pray to my maker, nor I try to picture it when I offer my Salath as my mind needs to be clear of all thoughts as I offer my Salath with my eyes open and mind alert with One thing in Mind that I am standing and bowing down in front of my creator Only. As I have said it in another thread, believers like myself has always prayed toward the first house of worship to God as a Universal Oness symbol. Once we the believers used to pray toward Jeruselam, when God ordered us to change as a test of believe in Him and His messanger, we followed that command.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 14 October 2008 at 8:20am
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That sounds like idolatry indeed, if that is how they pray in their hearts. It is not Catholicism in its truest sense however. Catholics do not believe that Mary is a goddess, as the Qu'ran seems to imply. Or that she is part of the 'trinity'. Catholics do not 'pray to' Mary as Creator. Nor to other 'saints'. Catholics believe all are the family of God - we are all brothers and sisters. The deceased do not lie in graves till Judgement Day. But are alive as God is, a 'God of the living, not the dead'. You follow Muhammad as a example of how to lead a good and holy life. A life that leads to God. In Catholicism Mary is seen as one who submitted wholly to God's will - her 'fiat' - her complete 'yes' to God, when she is asked by Gabriel to become the Mother of Jesus is whole submission. The 'immaculate heart' of Mary is about a heart 'purified' - cleansed of all attachment to wordly things, �sin� which is separateness from God. She is not attached to the creation above Creator - has a heart that beats for God Alone, the Creator above the Creation - submitting to his will in all things, and so loving all creatures, all creation as God intends it to be loved - with a 'pure heart', an 'immaculate heart'. That is no different to the Muslim who seeks to have a heart utterly willing to submit to God in all things, as its greatest end and good. Jesus said, "those who do the will of My Father in Heaven are my mother, brother, sister." It's all about relationships. Family relationships. And Catholics believe that the 'dead' are not 'dead' - but alive in God. Being perfectly submitted to God's will in 'heaven' - they cannot seek anything but God's will for those on earth. So if a person on earth were to seek their intercession - they are seeking the intercession of one wholly submitted to God's will. "Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." Catholics believe that God wishes all the members of the 'family', member of the Body of Christ, help and support each other in all ways. It seems that there are different stages on the spriitual path - and different stages in prayer life. It is true that in the past Catholics were so afraid of the wrath filled, judge God - that they feared approach God for anything. So they turn to the maternal - the mother of Jesus as intercessor. That was very wrong as it could seem to turn people from God - scare them from God, as far as I am concerned, anything that does this is very wrong. I could go on and on and on here Hasan. It's like your own faith and beliefs. I don't understand 99.9% of it - and often, it's like listening to a foreign language, getting to grips with that first - 'fore you can begin to understand what the Muslim believes or does not believe. God is the Creator - Master of all Creation - Lord of the Worlds. We are told to seek God in and through the Creation. Unless God deigns to give us a direct heavenly revelation of some sort. I believe that people praying - what can seem like idolatry - may well indeed be them finding God through the Creation - be it in the emulation of Mumammad, Mary or anyone else. If the heart is sincerely praying to God - even through a �creation� - then isn't God big enough, and good enough to lead that heart and soul ultimately to Himself. I believe so. I have seen in my own life. I pray to God �through� a �creation� � my self. We must be very careful indeed it seems to me H, how we judge others, and how they do or do not pray. God alone sees the heart and will guide it as God wills. If I were to consider Mary in my prayer life. I'd not pray 'to' Mary, or 'through' Mary. But 'with' Mary in praising God. I do pray TO God though as Creator, as God Alone is Creator. "My soul doth magnify the Lord My spirit exults in God my saviour....... " etc I see where you are coming from Hasan, and can see why you'd be concerned. I also see and know too however by what you have said, that you have not made a serious study of Catholic theology. You are judging something without the 'facts'. Same as me judging Muslims, or Islam �cause of the behaviours of certain groups or individuals - without going off and finding out the reality for myself. The only problem with all of that is we only have one short life time. And it would take about fifty thousand at least to read everything written on all of these religions. lol �The last shall be first and the first shall be last�. Mary was least in this world, but raised high in Heaven. The Qu'ran seems to suggest something like this too. But even being raised to the greatest of heights - they retain their humblest origins. It's like God - paradox. There are reported 'apparitions' of Mary thoughout the world over the centuries - coming to call humanity back to God. Guadaluope being one of them. I know there is much controversy over these within Christianity and even Catholicism iteself. I am not saying they are true or not. Just interesting. One is more recent in Yougoslavia. Mary comes to ask people to repentance, prayer, fasting and conversion of heart. To deepen the life of faith and ask it be given to the �unbelievers�. Prayer for 'unbelievers' is strongly emphasised. One time apparently, the young people who reportedly 'see' Mary, are asked by her to fast two days a week. God wishes people to fast as a healthy spiritual discipline. They ask her about this. It is said that Mary looks towards a Muslim woman in the crowd and says, "if she can do it, so can you." Another time they ask her who is the 'holiest' person in the village at a given time. Apparently Mary points to a little Muslim woman in the group assembled and speaks about her humilty being more pleasing to God than that of any other there at that time. I dunno about the reality/truth of any of this. But God is bigger than all of us and our perceptions - and even our 'religions' I am sure. I just feel it is presumption indeed - pride, that leads us to a place where we feel we have any right to judge the state of a heart/soul before its Creator. I could tell you Hasan that your description of prayer sounds to me like you pray to a big Nothing. Just what it might SEEM like, not the reality. I had a letter from a friend in South Africa this morning. He is a 'born again' Evangelical Christian. To the core. Great man don't get me wrong, and does brilliant work with young people who've been seriously damaged in life. He and I had a few battles over what it may or may not mean to 'pray', 'worship', 'adore' and love God. Like you - he saw Catholics as 'born again' pagan idolators. All I said to him was that he had no right to judge the heart of any human being, and presume to know the relationship that person may or may not have had with the Creator. We sat last month and just chatted. I told him what Christianity meant for me � what Christ meant for me and what I was raised to believe, whether I now believed it or not. He never opened his mouth. My friend wrote this to me. He is at home in SA for a holiday: "Love driving around the mountain and just chilling out - sunsets are We�re all ignorant of so many things, things known to God Alone. I just feel we need to be careful how we judge others, intentionally or not. �The road to hell is paved with good intentions.� God bless Hasan I don�t know what�s true or not. Just have to �resign� it all to �God�s will� so much of the time. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 October 2008 at 6:50pm
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Gulliver,
what you wrote is a lot of things, and discussing a lot of things at once does not get us anywhere, if we want to sort things out.
Let us take one thing at a time, so we benefit from out hard work.
Let start with one, you wrote:
"Catholics do not believe that Mary is a goddess as the Qu'ran seems to imply"
Please use a refrance when you quote anything.
Second, I have seen Catholics refer Mary as "Mother of God".
Now Christians also use that term and quite logically for them. Because if you believe Jesus to be God, then Mary the mother of Jesus, is mother of God. Remember it was Mary that carried Jesus for nine months in her belly, gave birth to him, cleaned, nursed, protected and took care of him just like your and my mother did to you and me.
Now I have no intention to argue with you how God has a human mother, but if you say Jesus is God then Mary is Mother of God for you. And that's what I have seen and heard among the Catholics about Mary, "the mother of God"
May God guide those who say such things. If it sound wrong to you or any then it must be so, because our inner self has a God given buit in balanced critarian, if we ignore it or sucumb to other desires and plans we fail ourselves. And what a failiure that is.
peace,
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 4:38am
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I am not going to 'argue' about anything Hasan, and don't intend to. I only give thoughts and opinions about things, which is not very logical I know. Dr Spock of the Starship Enterprise hates to see me being beamed on board ;-) lol I don't know for sure, and I keep saying that. Neither do you, and I will say that to you till the day we are both on our death beds - 'arguing' over who may be 'right' or 'wrong'.
I don't claim you are 'wrong' because I cannot and have no desire to. God is bigger than all of this - certainly our teeny intellects. You cannot claim me to be wrong either - because you don't know. If the Qu'ran were the Word of God - then like the Bible, claimed to be the "Word of God' - that same Word has yet to reveal its deepest secrets. In fact it never will reveal all it contains. This is wisdom. This 'Word' speaks to the heart prepared to hear it. Just an opinion mind you :-)
I wouldn't waste time in assuming any belief I have to be 'wrong,' H, as I don't know what I truly believe - there are so many variations on what may be 'true'. I've 'argued' with other 'logicians' - and they didn't make much sense in the end either.
I hear people who speak from the heart and with humility. Logic is cold and heartless. But that's just me.
If I am to be damned for not seeing things and believing as you do - so be it. I heard it all before, believe me :-) From one Christian denomination and another - even within Catholicism at times, you were made to believe it. I am not going to believe in some God I have to fear. I'd sooner go live 'eternally' with the shaitan.
I am not claiming to believe in anything - 'cept a belief in God. I do believe in God and always have, and will till I die I am sure - Inch Allah. I've questioned the other things, and heard from all sides and none, till I thought my head would implode. All it was in the end for the most part were men flattering their pathetic egos. I can 'prove' 'logically' that God exists and this is how God thinks, feels and blah blah blah.
As me granny used to always say, "God save us all from the bites of the cannibals."
My 'argument' is that you cannot say what is in another's heart when they pray, which is exactly what you presume to do, when you perceive Catholics or any other, as praying 'to' - this, that or the other. Like the mothers with twelve children to feed and clothe, who did not have fine books and scholars etc etc to consult. They prayed to God in their own way, with the maternal heart that God made and understands, and their faith got them through things most men would never cope with in ten life times. One of those silly Bukhari hadith would suggest that there are more women than men in hell. What kind of garbage is that, and a true offense to the good God ?! You really would have to be indoctrinated and throughly brainwashed to believe some of that tripe.
Abraham destroyed inanimate things as they were considered/perceived to be creators, or representatives of the Creator. I do not know of ANY Catholic who prays to anything or anyone, animate or inanimate, in this world or the next, as the Creator. Of course it is best, and should be that we go direct to God/Allah. But that journey, it seems to me H, begins with the Creation itself. The commandments of God - as you call, the 'criterion,' for beginning to know/journey to God - are written in the heart - a creation of Allah too. We begin our journey in and through the creation, beginning and ending in the 'heart'. The Qu'ran prohibits the 'worship' of anything created, in derogation of Allah. Rightly so. I have no issue with that at all. Do you know for a fact that those people you speak of, pray in their hearts to anything or anyone as Creator ? They seek intercession as I might ask that you intercede, offer 'dua'(?) for me
"If it sound wrong to you or any then it must be so, because our inner self has a God given buit in balanced critarian, if we ignore it or sucumb to other desires and plans we fail ourselves. And what a failiure that is.
peace,"
Exactly. And maybe your SATNAV is up the left, and mine is working properly. LOL
Sorry H. I am kidding. I cannot take all this too seriously. I did that in the past and it just leads to poor mental health. Mary is not the 'mother of God' for me. God does not have a mother. But it is said that as mother of Christ - the God-Man - if that were true, in some sense, she can be said to be the 'mother of God'. We are all called to bring God to this world. Bring forth the 'Christ' in each of us - that 'image of God' in which we are made, according to Christian belief. All called to be, 'mothers of God' in that sense - giving 'birth' to the Christ like in each of us - the one who will 'love one another as I have loved you," and if necessary, 'lay down his life for his friends.' We are called to be no less. To love God with all we are, and to love the neighbour as the self. This is the realisation of the Kingdom of God within. As Paul said, "I nolonger live in I, but Christ lives in me," and to realise the Kingdom without - God's will 'being done on earth as it is in Heaven'. And we bring Christ to this world, or should do - having followed/following Him all the way. We become 'living sacrifices' to God - by emulating Christ and living 'holy' lives of self sacrificial love - of God, neighbour and self. That, for me, is what it means to 'be saved'. Believing the words is not enough. We have to live them and that is very hard. "Take up your cross.......... " I think the bible would suggest that God has no favourites. So, if Mary were above and beyond all others - that would contradict this claim. I think the key to all of it is in understanding Mary's humility. When you take this on board - to heart - the terms given to Mary can begin to make 'sense' - for want of a better word. Humility is a 'key' to the Kingdom, I am sure. "The first shall be last and the last first". "I came to serve not to be served." Christ constantly seeks to have us think about humilty, that 'pearl of great price' and what it can mean to possess such a gift/grace. It is a 'key' to Heaven.
I am not saying or claiming it's true Hasan - what Catholicism may or may not claim about Mary. But I don't see it as 'anti' God either. I am really just saying, I think, that it's not as black and white as you, or a verse PERHAPS (I may misunderstand it) - in the Qu'ran, would have us believe. That Catholics 'worship' Mary as a 'god' 'in derogation of Allah'. When you see what God achieves though a humble soul - the heights to which it is called, can be 'raised' - you do look in awe, wonder and veneration at this work of the good God, and in doing that 'worship' God Himself in acknowledging what He does for his 'lowly servant's. Mary herself says, "My soul MAGNIFIES the Lord........ " in the Magnigicat. I wonder if we can say/sing the same thing. One day Inch Allah. Do books and 'scholars' 'magnify' the Lord ? Do they show the reality and true nature of God ? If so - good. In looking to Mary - we can see a soul that 'magnifies' the Lord. Humility is a key that opens up the secrets of Heaven, and the understanding of them, it seems to me. Pride and logic never will attain this. It's a work of the heart. I must read the chapter on Myriam in the Qu'ran, chapter 19, and see what it really says - another time.
Qu'ran - 5:116 "Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "
Why does the Qu'ran itself set Mary up as example of chastity, submission, humility, - an immaculate of heart in loving God ? Someone for women, AND men to emulate.
I realise that may offend some men, suggesting them emulate a woman in acquiring true faith and submission to God in love. It's their loss.
Sorry H, I am all ove the place again. I am useless at 'logic'. My heart takes over and will be the ruination and damnation of me I am sure.
Perfect love casts out all fear.
The reference you asked for. Again it may not mean this at all and I am open to hearing it re interpreted.
The font sizes in this are all over the place. Can I make this all the same size ?
God bless you
:-)
Oh. P.S.
"Second, I have seen Catholics refer Mary as "Mother of God.
Now Christians also use that term and quite logically for them."
Are you suggesting that catholics are not 'christian' ? LOL
Oh dear God, here we go again. Round and round the Mulberry bush.
I wonder how the doctors here deal with the fact that not all their patients die as 'Muslim' or 'Jew' or 'Christian' or whatever else. I'd love to hear their views on this. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 6:50am
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That was a long complicated post from Gulliver. We do not know where to start and where to end. I wish there was one thing at a time.
It has been proved by the post of Hasan that some christians do pray to Mary, the mother. That is in present times. But there had been some christian sects in Egypt long ago who took Mary as a Goddess beside Allah. That was about 600 A.D.
In those days, after the advent of Islam, the christians had much difficulty proving that Jesus was a god. So they dropped the godhead of Mary and perhaps since then they pray to her in very special areas only.
Then there was a teaching of three gods in the christians. When they could not prove it from the teachings of Jesus (And Jesus never explicitly taught Trinity), they returned to One God also.
I believe what Hasan has said is true. Some christians do pray to Mary. Another problem that Gulliver has brought into discussion is that all those who passed away are alive in the sight of God. They can intercede in many matters. That if discussed separately, could not be proved. There are so many unreal things in christianity, i.e. the son of God, the begotten son, the original sin and all prophets were sinners, all these things cause disturbance. So many unreal things. Then to add to that another, that all those who passed away are still alive. That would be more complication.
Let us be simple and speak in real terms, please, and one thing at a time. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 8:21am
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It's not a 'good' place to claim that there are so many things in Christianity are 'unreal'.
Have you read the entire bible yourself Minute and everything on all things Christian, 'real' 'imagine' and 'unreal' ? ;-) One is hardly 'qualified' to say what is real or unreal till one does, doesn't one agree ?! As the English would say ;-) lol
If one starts from the position of thinking one knows all - is infallible - one loses me, as the Americans say, "from the get go." No one has all the truth Minute. I am not about proving right and wrong - what you believe or I believe as right or wrong. I look to see what is similar on our journeys towards the same God - what draws together - not what divides. I may not understand all you believe, or how you practice your faith. I don't just say it's 'unreal' however. I look for the evidence of your faith lived in your life and by your words/actions.
In the Christian bible there is the, 'Transfiguration'. Happens on Mt Tabor. But as these stories are all 'corrupt'ed - referencing them here seems a rather pointless exercise. The appearance of Moses and Elijah, signifying the Law and the Prophets, who appear beside Jesus, in 'glory,' on the 'high mountain' - Mt Tabor. They appear with Jesus, speaking with Him - Jesus. Jesus being 'transfigured'. Moses, Elijah and Jesus together. IF this were a true event - then it would seem to suggest that the 'dead' are indeed 'alive' in God.
If we consider time anyway. Outside linear time - perhaps the 'resurrection' has already happened, which would make this story a potential 'real'ity.
I think before anyone starts pontificating - like they have the 'infallible' truth on all things Christian, or Islam for that matter. They need to have read everything about these beliefs/claims of Christianity, Islam from every possible source, for themselves, at the very least. I don't like people who think they are infallible ;-) lol
That means you need to read the entire bible, which I don't think you have done Minuteman, (forgive me if I am wrong) - and all the rest with it, and don't just claim that so much in Christianity is 'unreal'. Can you 'prove' angels exist ?
Like an angel appearing to a man in a cave, a man who is supposedly illiterate, and practically shouting at him, after terrorising him to near death - to "read!". How 'unreal' is that ! I know that is not the 'real'ity Minuteman. But I made the effort to find out for myself.
"It has been proved by the post of Hasan that some christians do pray to Mary, the mother. That is in present times. But there had been some christian sects in Egypt long ago who took Mary as a Goddess beside Allah. That was about 600 A.D.
In those days, after the advent of Islam, the christians had much difficulty proving that Jesus was a god. So they dropped the godhead of Mary and perhaps since then they pray to her in very special areas only."
I don't see that Hasan has 'prove'd anything. Though he did make a better and slightly more 'informed' attempt at it than you have done Minue. Shame on you. Under the stairs and a gruel for you for the next forty eight years. lol You talk about Christian 'sects' in Egypt - and then make it sound like all Christians always prayed to Mary as a goddess pre Islam. That is not true. I will be 'simple' as I can be, and speak in 'real' terms - one thing at a time.
We all need to be much better informed on many things before we claim to know what may be real or unreal, methinks.
God bless :-)
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Posted By: ancestor
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 8:43am
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I had sometime ago encounter with this comment from a christian women who comment about Mary . Well we pray kinda like you do, being a polytheist I pray to the Lady whose symbol is the Moon-she is a triple goddess, Maidon, Mother and Crone. And the Lord whose symbol is the Sun, also called the Greenman. I see the Lord and Lady as being multi-faceted like diamonds and all aspects of life are radiated and reflected in them. I guess to give you an example of a kinda prayer that I pray here is one I wrote- its not very good and there are far more talanted poets and bards amongst my friends. My Dear Lady Before you without human shame I stand before your little flame While calling on your endless name My Dearest Lady filled with love. How gently does your bright moon shine On to this meek new child of thine Gentleness and strength combine And rain down from above. How full my heart now seems to be Where you have touched me so softly My Lady whom I long to see With human eyes so full of love Brightly shines the stars on high Softly winds through grasses sigh And drifting clouds that sail the sky Speaking softly of my Lady above. For she who made all earthly things Fish in water, birds on wings, Element, spirits, and human beings Is now my Lady whom I love. For on this night so bright and clear I am changed forever here My path has brought my Lady near My dearest Lady from above. Brightest Blessings, Without any shadow of the Doubt Quran is correct when referring to anyone who revered or worship Mary as the Mother of god. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 8:55am
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What 'amazes' me is that the Qu'ran speaks of God as 'Lord of the Worlds' and what that implies. Opening the heart and mind to infinite possibility.
Is God sitting in a big throne waiting all alone for 'time' to 'end' - so he can sort us all out, and have those of us he wishes with him, in paradise and the others in hell.
Very limited 'view' - in my opinion.
I am sorry bout the way I express my 'questions' Hasan and Minuteman. I have never gotten into 'arguments' the way people do on these forum. Taking every point and detail and countering it with whatever.
If will try to be more specific from now on. But be patient cause it's not what I am used to. I just blabber off at the bit, as the saying goes. lol
God bless
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 16 October 2008 at 1:32am
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You haven't 'prove'd anything either Ancestor. If this person 'revered' Mary as Creator - then I'd agree with you that the Qu'ran would be said to be correct.
She admits she is a 'polytheist' - therefore is not a 'christian women'.
A true Catholic does not, and can not 'worship' Mary as Creator. It's forbidden in the commandments. If I said you were all hate filled mad terrorists - you'd accuse me of making blanket statements about Muslims. That Islam is a 'religion of peace.' When there are plenty of those so called hadith I can pull out to dirty that claim well and good. Enough to make others less informed believe that Islam is anything but. We must all make the effort to dig deeper to know what people truly believe.
I don't really know what I believe Ancestor. But just because your good self, or the gool ol' Hasan ( ;-) ) - or someone else here, with your own private interpretation of the Qu'ran, or by talking to 'christian' people, or observing them practice their religion in a way that is really not true to what their church teaches, claim something to be 'true' - does not make it so. You CAN NOT PROVE it, not to me anyway. We're all expert in one thing - speculation.
It's very clear to me that your making statements about Catholics, and other Christians without knowing the reality of what these people are 'supposed' to actually believe. Not all Christians revere Mary the way Catholics, or even some Muslims seem to do. Many Christians see the reverence given to Mary as 'goddess' and 'idol worship' too, and I have no doubts there are cases where this is true. But it is not the 'true' teaching of Catholicism. They claim that her supposed 'apparitions too, IF they were true, are satan manifesting as 'an angel of light' to lead the masses astray. Like the one in Zeitoun in Egypt in the 60s - seen by Christian, Coptic, Musim, atheist, agnostic and others. It is also claimed by some too, that the angel 'Jibril' that appeared to Muhammad in a cave, giving him a 'false' gospel, was satan manifesting as that 'angel of light' predicted in the Christain scriptures. How do I know that is not true ? It sure sounds true, when you consider that Muhammad completely undermines what Christ's role seems to have been understood to be for centuries prior to, and post Muhammad, by millions/billions of people around the world.
We all have to dig deeper and not 'judge by appearances'. God alone sees and knows the heart. We have to dig a lot deeper too into the possible meaings and interpretations of the Qu'ran and the Bible, I think. I just think and speculate and talk a load of twaddle ;-) mind you (so take all with a good pinch of salt :-) ) I don't claim to know what others believe in their hearts, or not. IF this scripture truly is the Word of God - then how can finite creatures like us, with all our fantastic intellects ever hope to fully contemplate that very God's Word - a Word that calls forth life itself, and fully 'understand' it. Isn't that supposed to be what 'heaven' is - eternal 'beautitude' - the 'vision of God' - the endless contemplation of who and what God is, beginning in this life/world - through ONE of the world/s :-) that God has created ?
Allah/God is Lord of the Worlds. We have to think in terms of 'worldS' at the very least. Infinite possibilites - if we indeed have an 'immortal' or 'eternal' destiny.
What I see in too much 'organised' 'religion' is akin to the Borg concept of Assimilation.
Assimilation was the process by which the http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg - Borg added new members and new http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Technology - technology to the http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_Collective - Collective . "Borg assimilation was predatory; every http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Species - species the Borg encountered was assessed to determine whether its biological and technological distinctiveness was considered 'worthy of being added to the Collective's perfection'. If found to be so, the species was set upon and forcibly assimilated; the Collective considered the species' will in the matter 'irrelevant'. " lol :-)
It's true to a large degree though. The Catholic Church wanted to have european style catholic clones all over the world. And it SEEMS that Islam would have us all clones of Muhammad too. I am not saying that is the reality. It's how it can very easily appear. We all gotta dig deeper.
Only thoughts folks. Some days I wonder why I'd want anything to do with 'religion' again. It really can screw people up and destroy lives. But I'll keep searching. We should all get together for a real talk some time :-)
Anyway - that's my tuppence worth.
God bless :-) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 5:20pm
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Gulliver,
I am sorry but let us not waist time with lengthy wanderings. If you are serious about these issues. I gurantee you we will both benefit from this discussion. But we have to take one thing at a time. Lengthy posts don't solve anything rather complicate things.
As I suggested lets take an issue and talk about it, I let you choose and we will go from there.
Peace,
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 18 October 2008 at 1:42am
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What is Fitrah ? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 October 2008 at 4:31pm
Gulliver,
in my view, its our natural ability to distinguish right from wrong, that we are born with.
Our surroundings, life styles and influences can have impact on this ability. So in my opinion it can fade away and may not be permanent.
I use this real example very often, and will do here as well. It must be in our Fitrah to know that God is neither born nor does have children. My wife who while being a Catholic could not swallow the pill of Jesus' being God's son without knowing Islam. This can be a proof that in her 'Fitrah' she knew and believed rightly. And I know of this from many other fomer Catholics and Christians as well, that they thought of Jesus only as a godly man, not God.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 6:14am
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Gulliver, you can go thru this link to know about Imam Bukhari
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12534 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12534
Go thru page 6 too. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 8:08am
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Jazakallah for the link Seeks .
I found it very informative (the Bukhari link) - I never got to read in detail about Imam Bukhari, his life story is subhanallah very intriguing and inspiring. I learnt a lot. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |