Love and Religion conflicts=help!
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Topic: Love and Religion conflicts=help!
Posted By: peacelovedarfur
Subject: Love and Religion conflicts=help!
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 11:52pm
| I am a Muslim girl, still young in that my heart wishes to rule over y head but old enough to be responsible for my actions and try at least to see beyond what seems to make perfect sense in what others call my "fantasy land". I am religious in that I truely do believe in Islam and will debate anything about religion because it always turns out into furthur confirmation of my belief but I am also an idealist believing that love should be manifested in everything through its four meanings including love of God, and that if love enacts your every action it will amount to the same as the actions of a true believer. Anyways I was debating religion with a boy, on the internet, whom after about a year now we've decided the connection between us was that of true love and I believe so with all my heart. He has the best of hearts, pious, loving, filled with goodness and carries all the qualities I had ever admired in a man but he is Baptist Christian. I was conforted by the knowledge that we are both very,very open to different beliefs and peoples and beside his rejection of Muhammed and his message he loves and glorifies God as much as I do, seeing his wonder in everything and always praising and thanking and trusting and hoping and praying to God. But he is Christian. And we have talked about marriage, we want to get married and be people of the world spreading love and faith and goodness in a nomadic way, raising children with a strong love for God and real values and adopting those without love. We are so alike to, we complete each other really and I promised myself I would never say "I Love You" to anyone but my to be husband, my partner for life. I just recently went to the Youth Camp with my mosque and when I brought us up they tore me apart kindly. They said I was making acceptions for the word of God, that our marriage will not be concidered valid and our relationship is haraam and that unless he converts there is no other way anything can be allowed to happen between us. I dont know what to say to him, I dont know what to do, I love him dearly but I love Allah more! Please help, what is your opinion on the matter? |
Replies:
Posted By: Hamzah
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 7:49pm
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Bismillah
Assalam Alaikum wa Rahamtullah wa Barakatuh Sister, in the holly Quran Allah states clearly that a Muslim woman is not to be returned to her non Muslim husbands and when this Ayah came down, one of the prophet's daughters (Zainab I think) had to leave her husband, he later reverted to Islam and they were joined again, if 2 people who are joined together by marriage can be seperated based on this then there is no doubt that it is haram for a Muslim woman to marry a non Muslum an, if you commit this act then your relationship with this man is not valid in the eyes of Allah who i'm sure you love more, it is like committing Adultery, if you love Allah you will not compromise when it comes to your faith, conversations with this guy and all your relationship with him this far is wrong and a big sin, don't let Shaytan drag you further. Further more he may Revert just to marry you, make sure this is not the case, i know sister this is hard for you, my best advise is to pray to Allah to give you power to overcome this and to bring you happiness for if you leave something for the sake of Allah then he will reward you. I hope this link gives you more insight. http://ebrahimsaifuddin.wordpress.com/2006/11/07/interfaith-marriages-why-can’t-a-muslim-woman-marry-a-non-muslim-man/ May Allah bless you sister, ameen. ------------- "Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect" |
Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:28pm
| How often this scenario has come up on these boards over the years. Really only the names change, but circumstance pretty much the same. Young men and women involving themselves in relationships which are disliked and forbidden, thus producing conflict and pain for their hearts. Talking with this boy for over a year and justifying it as debating or dawah until sexual tension builds to the point of discussing a relationship. How often, over the past years of internet, have we heard of girls leaving home to meet total and complete strangers because of "love" or otherwise satisfying desires. It is going to hurt, but this is the result of your unwise action and behavior, however you must end this relationship. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 12:06am
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As'Salamu Alaikum ,
Welcome to the boards of Discussions at IslamiCity. All praises be to Allah swt, who made you seek our opinion. May Allah swt also bless you with hidayah so that you return to His path.
Sister, sorry for being so tough replying you in your very first post. Its hard to see such young and energitic muslims who are to contrinute there time and energy for the ummah, straying away. Its all the trap of satan you are struck in.
Do you know sister, that when the satan wants to make the elite of the people fall into sin, he comes to them through the door of obedience. We keep doing that good and then slowly are dragged towards evil and sins. He makes that sin appear good to us. So we do not realise it as a sin at all. Such is the case going on with you. You wished to discuss religion to him and then fallen into the pit.
You must have read this many times in the Qur'an, "Do not follow the footsteps of satan ---" Do you know what footsteps of satan is " ? You can understand this better with your own story. If that person, would have proposed you very first day you discussed, am sure you would have said, "NO", to him, Is n't it ? So satan let you enter thru good deed and intention of religion, and made evil out of it. The discussion must have started with religion, then slowly, must have moved other topics as well thus drawing each other closer. This is said as "foot steps of satan".
I hope sister, you must have realised by now, about the satanic trap. Haste to repent . Life is so short. These days of youth are not to be wasted. We are to answer the question as how we spent our days of youth. Allah swt loves those who repent. He regarded them as best people. Morover, here's agood reminder. Infact, i had beed discussing this verse and realised the beauty of it.
"Except those who repent and believe, and do righteous deeds; for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful"
Is n't Allah swt the Most Merciful and Forgiving. Apart from forgiving our sin, he turns them into good. Subhan Allah. You must have seen how a mother grabs her lost son. So will Allah swt . He loves us many times than a mother. He grabs us when we repent. Everytime we realise we were wrong and feel guilt, Allah swt rewards us.
Right now onwards, repent Allah swt. Break all ties with him. You verywell know that its a wrong relation ship, Even if he were a muslim, such love is forbidden. Moreover , he is a disbeliver, and relationship with him is n't permissible at all.. You may feel disturbed by his thoughts, but soon you need to remind yourselves that it is satan who is whispering you.
Try to be closer to Allah swt, by reciting and pondering Qur'an , by being with righteous people. Never ever try to stay in contact with him by any means.Try to strengthen your heart with faith and make it a healthy heart by love of Allah swt and His last messenger.which is the only true love.
Stay in touch with IC, by sharing your knowledge with us. Hope sister, you ponder over all this.
May Allah swt guide all of us. Ameen
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
peacelovedarfur wrote:Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 6:16am
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You need to tell the young man the truth- that because you are female your religion forbids the relationship. Don't continue to string him along.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=54219&FID=88 - seekshidayath it is not that he is a disbeliever, but that he believes differently.
In a marriage holding the same beliefs are most important. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 7:30pm
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Beleiver, i don't know, what your christianity defines :"believer" as. But according to Islam, a believer of this ummah, shud ought to believe in Allah swt and His Messenger. One who reject Prophet Muhammad { PBUH }, as a messenger of Allah swt, indeed commits Kufr and is a disbeliever. Since our sister is a muslim, i hope she knows very well that such marriages are void.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: peacelovedarfur
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 8:12pm
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I know this is my test that Allah gave me, the one that truely got me at my weakness, my real struggle, for had he given me poverty or failure it would not have marred me. So it is my choice, based on my view of good and evil and what is most important to me, that he will judge me on. It was either him- his love and my dream of living or Islamic law and being part of the perfect society with a muslim man and what such a life brings. I listened to your words and made clear that I understand but none the less I choose him. I'm sure even if I listed the reasons or gave you my thoughts and heart to examine you would think the same and condem me. One thing I promise, inshallah it may ease your heads of worry has it done so, that I will never turn away from the light of Allah, for having once seen it and known the truth I can distinguish the dark and lies. The Quran and Muhammed (pbh) is my guide and Allah is the only Lord, inshallah he will see it too. You will see us helping humanity and spreading faith and love. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 11:38pm
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-----------------------------------@#$%^&*
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: peacelovedarfur
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:00am
| hahaha, I dont plan on marrying him now or any time soon, my conflict was seeing him at all and letting the relationship furthur. And by nomadic, I mean not living in one place for the rest of my life and leading the sort of life "normal" Americans live; we plan on traveling and seeing Gods wonders all the while doing things, going places to help humanity and spread faith and love to the people. When the children come, inshallah, we shall bring them up with the same values and knowledge of God and his world. Mashallah, how quick you are to judge when you do not know anything but the words I put on this page. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:02am
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sorry I am changing the subject- I will start another thread. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 11:39am
 ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 11:46am
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Peaceloveandfar: I know that you are well aware of Islam's position on the issue. . . and so I will not add anything more on that.
However, EVEN if the object of your love were a muslim, I would sincerely advise you against this marriage - simply because you both met online, and such online things are always risky! You do not know anything about this boy, and you both see in each other only what you want to.
I hope Allah helps you make the correct decision, and helps you through this time.
PS: What will your Kids be believing in? Christianity, Islam or some universal hippy-version of God is Love, and Love conquers all? ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: famania
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 1:35pm
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Dear Sister,
Trust me my best friend had the same scenario except that they were high school buddies who met in high school. Now they are in college but still together, since she is my best best friend, i felt really disappointed in her when she told me.
She used to advise me on all good and bad things but when she had told me that she loved this guy off like anything. I was really dazzled.The guy is gem of a person, but then not a muslim. I know it's love, you might fall in love with their personality and so on. I had told her that if it had been a Muslim guy fallen in love with a Christian girl, that marriage would have been possible, since the guy can convert the girl in some cases, and even if not, then in that case his progeny is at least known as Muslims right.
But in your case, it's the opposite your kids would be christian in that case. Don't think I am being biased here, saying what it is according to islam
Tried telling her, but all i can say in your case is may Allah help you make the right decision.
Can't even tell you to convert him, cause it wouldn't be that easy for him, but then nothing in this world is impossible.
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:02pm
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Its heart-aching and sad plight to see her blind, inspite of having eyes, She views, good and evil but is still astray. This makes us clear again that , its ONLY ALLAH SWT, who gives hidayah.
Sister, you are welcome to IC at any part of your life. Am sure , one day you shall regret, be it after 2 years or five.
Anyways, i wish our readers to kindly keep reciting this dua
" Rabbana la tuzigh quloobana baAAda ith hadaytana wahab lana min ladunka rahmatan innaka anta alwahhabu "
"Our Lord! Let not our hearts deviate (from the truth) after You have guided us, and grant us mercy from You. Truly, You are the Bestower
To be guided by Allah swt is one of the best blessings and not to deviate from it is an other. So we need to constantly pray for it. ELse we are in loss.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 11:31pm
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Auzubillahi minash shairan ir rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
Assalamualaikum dear Peace L D,
MashAllah you sound to be a conscious Muslimah. If Allah has turend your heart to searching the truth regarding this matter, know that He loves you and means well for you.
You have already got many benefical advice, and I don't have a lot to add. Just a small peice from this end ...
Love of Allah is eternal love. Since Allah is eternal, the human soul which loves Him, his love continues till eternity, and is rewarded with such delights in the next life which no heart has conceived, no eye has seen ... as said in the Quran.
Every other type of love is temporal. This is so because this world is temporal, and all that is in it is likewise passing. However one type of love of duniya continues till eternity and that is the Love for the sake of Allah.
Thus, a true believer is one who loves Allah, and loves His creation for His sake.
Loving Allah in true sense means one brings the heart in conformity to everything that He has ordained, and turns the heart away from everything that He has forbidden. In other words, a true beleiver is in a state of total submission to Allah, and has an obedience which is like that of a true slave to his/her Master.
A true believer also loves Allah's creation in such a way that Allah has ordained. He/she loves the believers for the the blessing of faith that resides in their heart, and loves others because they are also His creation. However a true beleiver does not love any kind of disobedience of any heart.
In surah fatiha, which is a dua, we ask Allah for guidance - to the straight path. The path of those whom Allah has shown favor (these are the true believers, His messengers, prophets and friends). We also ask in this dua to not make us like those who earned His wrath (ie the Jews who disobeyed). And we ask Him to not make us like those who went astray after true guidance reached them, ie the christians.
If you love someone in his state of disobedience to Allah, you are not loving him through Allah or for the sake of Allah. You are loving him for the sake of your carnal desire. So, search your heart for this difference, and earnestly beseach Allah for guidance.
Ya muqallibal qulubi, sabit qalbi ala dinika :: O turner of hearts, direct my heart to Your religion.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 11:49pm
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AbuAisha said so succinctly, only the names change, the story remains practically same.
I heard a shaykh say that when the entire wujud of a human soul should be for the ibadah of Allah, as said in the Quran :: wama khalaqta al jin wa al ins illa li aabudu (and I have created the jin and men except that they worship me), then what part of humans is in obedience of Allah while surfing the internet ...
and the fitnah in surfing is greater amongst our youth, than in the selection of a good book to read.
------------- <font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 12:51pm
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[QUOTE=peacelovedarfur]
One thing I promise, inshallah it may ease your heads of worry has it done so, that I will never turn away from the light of Allah, for having once seen it and known the truth I can distinguish the dark and lies. [/QUOTE] As'Salaamu Alakum Sister:
Sister I think you need to really consider some of the choices you are about to make. Also take some time to make sincere dua concerning the situation you are in. In all honesty what you are engaging in may just stay online and you probably never will meet the young man. But regardless of if you meet this young man or not, your frame of mind and your intentions are going to surely affect your Iman( your faith).
Obviously, you sharing with other muslims what you are going through is a sign that you are battling in your heart and mind what is the choice to make. You have one part of you telling you what is the 'right' Islamic choice to make. But on the other side, you have these 'feelings' in your heart, that makes you feel you are in love. It sound like this young man has open up feelings you never had, everything feels bright and new and you really sound as if you have this burst of energy. But you know deep down that these postive feelings you have for the young man that is not muslim is really taboo and it goes against what is taught in Islam. Maybe even the thougt of it being taboo brings on this heightened pleasure.
This young man may be really bright, nice, and everything you dream of in your future husband, but regardless of his positive traits, his rejection of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh), should make all his good traits void for you.
Sister, you already know of all the great aspects our Prophet brought to the people of the world, for the Muslms. So I'm not going to go down that road to list any...
But wouldn't you think that it will be disrepectful to our Prophet, to your family, to yourself, most importantly to Allah(swt) to consider a relationship with the young man.
Lets not even look at the fact that really no mosque will allow you to marry, that obviously you will be without your wali when you make this marriage decision, or that his parents and church will probably not accept the marriage...
lets just consider what's in the Quran.
surah 3:28
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
there are other similar verses in the Quran..
So if you say that you will never turn away from the light of the Quran, just consider that one verse.
Your friend rejects the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) so he is classified as a unbeliever.
Now just consider some other factors. Even though alot of these 'relationships' never make it off line and the chances of either of you guys 'waiting' for one another is a slim chance. Lets just say that some rare chance the two of you have children.
How would you raise your children if Daddy rejects Islam but Mommy is a Muslimah. How would you explain that you pray five times a day, but daddy doesn't. Daddy doesn't go to a Masjid but mommy does. Daddy can eat during Ramadan but you and the children can't. As a mom you want the best for your children, and who else should lead the family but a Muslim brother.
Salaam
By the way. everyone in the forum you chat with regardless of how 'pious' their character is has been through a life situation that has made them feel that no one 'understands' how they feel. But remember, its your level of strength that will determine your outcome in this phrase in your life. Insha'Allah, your love for life is not stronger then your love of being in the rightous hereafter.
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Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 11:15pm
as the young man in question, I suppose it is time for me to weigh in on this discussion of an issue the two of us have been wrestling with. before getting into a spiritual + theological discussion though, I'd like to address a couple of the points people have already made. also please note that I will use the names God and Allah interchangeably, but when I use them I am referring to the one God who created the heavens and the earth, who created us, and who loves us deeply.
I'm in the process of picking my travel dates and finding a place to live within jogging/biking distance and a temporary job. For those of you concerned with the safety of the issue, I would like to point out that its currently technically infeasible to simulate interactively in real-time both photorealistic video and human speech, especially on the occasions when multiple people (family members/friends) are also in on the discussion. At this point I feel it's probably safe to assume both of us are who we claim to be. On the subject of our ability to wait, we are now approaching the one year marker, plus 6 months of friendship prior to that. Again, I feel its fairly safe to say that our patience extends well beyond that of your typical teenagers. On some level though, I wish that this discussion had taken place 12 months ago, for that would have made things much simpler emotionally.
If what we were experiencing was romantic love on a purely emotional level, it would fade over time. This is a fact of human physiology. But any love worth holding on to, any love that is going to last is more than just emotion. It is living day to day in a way that places the needs of the one you love before your own. Any of you who aren't familiar with the roots of the Anglicized (English) idea of love (as a single word), should at the very least read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love, and I would recommend reading C.S. Lewis's The Four Loves. I believe that the persistence of our love for each other, despite the lack of any physical contact, love that is based on a shared joy in God's creation and the touching of two minds, speaks to this being something deeper than just eros or teenage hormones.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%204:8&version=31 - God is love , http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013;&version=31; - without love you are nothing . It seems to me that it would be disrespectful....even foolish, to think that somehow Allah disapproves of real love between anyone, but especially between two people who love him, simply because they acknowledge the legitimacy of 2 different sets of prophets. If He is love, than showing love to another human being is the single thing we can do that is most pleasing to Him, regardless of if that love is demonstrated through care of our planet, care for each other, striving for social justice, working to establish peace, or constant service to each other of a husband and wife.
I can not speak to what will happen if want to get married in a mosque, though what I read here does not give me much hope, yet I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my current pastor will be willing to marry us should I ask him to do so, and that my parents will be thrilled to have a daughter in law who loves God as much as she does (once of course we've had the discussion with them to show that her understanding of Allah is very much the same as our understanding of God).
I am under the understanding that Muslims accept Jesus, at least as a prophet. why then do I see this continual disregard for the teaching inherent in his life? his closest friends and those to whom he showed the greatest mercy were not the religious of the day, but rather the tax collectors, the gentiles, prostitutes and even the Romans who were oppressing his own people. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=5&verse=14&version=31&context=verse - The entire law is summed up in one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself" Who are neighbors? Every human being in this universe was created by God, in his own image (not physically of course), and thus every human being in this universe is your neighbor
We would be truly irresponsible to have children until we have decided how they are to be raised, yet what kind of husband and father would I be if I didn't pray when they prayed, and ate when they ate. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 2:42am
Hello there Thomas.
I'm not even going to try to approach the issue from a theological point of view. Why? Because I know that you both are perfectly aware of what your respective religions' say. I also know that should have been enough to dissuade a person . . . and I know that the Lady/Girl in question will still go through with her choice of what she believes, and so using religion as a dissuading tool is useless and irrelevant now.
Also, I am not judging you both (esp the Muslimah) - because I am in no position to know what is in either of your hearts, and I also cannot put myself in Allah's place and tell people they are right or wrong. I trust that Allah will deals with everyone differently according to thier situations. All we fellow muslims can do here is put the facts out in front of her, and trust her to use her judgement.
Having said that, putting the theological issue aside, I still wouldnt be able to tell someone to go ahead with a union of this nature. Why? Well, the entire online-love thing. And I am referring to both of you. How much do you really know about each other? Meeting online is but the tip of the ice-berg. You dont even know each other's personality, character etc. Your perceptions of each other are built solely on what you both have told each other (i.e. what you both subconciousley want each other to believe). You havent even seen each other interact with other people, the way you talk etc etc. How do you know if the other has a personality flaw, a temper or anyother traitl. Thus even after knowing each other for a year, I still think you know nothing. You dont have mutual friends, family members you could ask about the prospective spouse. Apart from the fact that you both 'love' each other.
I know this is not anything physical/sexual etc. But I do not accept the fact that this is 'love'. Perhaps an infatuation to attain some long-desired object of affection . . . or perhaps because you both have the same interests such as God etc. To 'love' is to have affection towards another despite knowing all the faults. You both know all that you want to . . .But do you both know all that you need to know? (about each other) . Its not as rosy as it seems. The mere fact that you both call this year long correspondency 'love', does not sit well with me.
Having said that, I have an inclination as to what both of your decision will be. But I hope whatever it is, it will give you both happiness/blessings in this world, as well as the hereafter. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 6:24am
thank you, that was one of most well reasoned posts so far in this discussion. The points you make here are absolutely valid, and we would be foolish to disregard them. Getting married at this stage in our lives, and in our relationship would be beyond foolishness. Yet neither of us believe there is any point to relationship that does not include the possibility of marriage, which is why we are trying to address these religious issues before we go any further. To say that religion is ineffective as a dissuading tool also does disservice to both her and I, these last couple weeks have been some of the most difficult and gut wrenching times of both our lives as we have been wrestling with these issues a new. We also seem to be the exception to the rule of internet relationships as far as having mutual friends go. I'd say there's a shared group of about 10 friends--from both sides of the country, as well as fairly frequent contact with her family. I also plan on having her flown out here over her Christmas vacation to meet my family and church--after a 3 month test run of me living on her side of the country, giving us a chance to ground our relationship firmly in the real world. This has been our plan for nearly 3 months, and only in the last couple weeks has there been any doubt. [edit] I just saw this in one of your posts above
My desire is for my children to be trained in critical thinking, as I have been, and raised to believe in a loving God, and taught to follow the moral and ethical teachings of both Jesus and Muhammad. I want them to be encouraged to explore the evidence for both religions and be able to make a decision for themselves, for I have faith that God will reveal himself to those who seek him. That being said, it would be foolishness for us to even consider having children until we've had a lot more time to think and come to consensus on how our children should be raised. I am very much interested in the theological aspects of this discussion or I would not be here, however as a critical thinker who strives to follow and understand God as best I can, I have very little taste for the blind legalism that permeates so much of mainstream religion. Instead of citing me a single verse from the Quran (sorry, I don't remember the correct place for the apostrophe...), please weigh your post against the whole of Abrahamic religion and your own personal relationship with God and the way His character has been revealed to you through that relationship. [edit2] grrr, I'm not used to forums where I have to wait for my post to actually show up. I suppose it can be useful to help prevent discussions from getting too heated. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 3:23pm
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Well Thomas it's obvious that you and the young Muslimah have a situation. While I still believe it's best and ideal that a Muslimah is united with another Muslim brother, I hope that the two of you decide and make wise decisions regardless if the two of you decide to stay together or not. I still can't help but be confused on how the difference in religious views the two of you carry will allow the unity needed to form a good relationship. Main reason being I was under the impression that you rejected the Prophet Muhammad, but from reading your reply to my post, I'm not sure if that's the case. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 1:09am
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An other reminder for Peacelovedarfur : Few other posts of the last page implie that you are still in the process of decision. A Muslim is the one who submits himselves to Allah. He submits his likes , dislikes according to the commands of Allah swt. He does n't , partly follow and partly leave any of His commands. Any of his acts or intentions will be for Allah swt. He does n't hesitate, to follow any of the commands of Allah swt. You must be knowing that Jews. Christians and even the Mushirks of Makkah, also believed in One God - Allah swt. Yet they were called as "disbelievers" in Islam. Though they believed in Allah swt, yet disbelieved the command of Allah swt to believe in the Prophet He had chosen. SO they were called as disbelivers in the Qur'an. When it is plain and simple that marriage with a DISBELIEVER, is n't permitted, then why are you going for it ? As the Prophet said in an authentic Hadith, Whoever commits an action that does not conform to our matter (religion) then it is rejected Naturally, your nikah {marriage} is not going to be according to Islam, you may be going by christianity and leave up with a wrong relation { acc to Islam}. Do you think the one who does n't follow the command Allah swt , will spread peace, when he himselves is n't practicing it. Islam is the complete and the only solution of peace. Khayr, i feel you shud give him sometime to study Islam. especially of Prophet Muhammad {Peace be upon him}. Let him discuss any points he does n't agree with, { as you said he disbelives Prophet}. Also remind him that Islam is the religion of all of the Prophets from the first to the last. Their laws and their rules may be of different types but the religion is the same. The laws differed in Abraham AS's time, Musa AS's time and Isa AS too. The shariah {laws} was completed over its LAST Prophet , Muhammad {Pbuh}. Take the case of Ibrahim AS, - he believed in One God, and he submitted according the will of Allah swt. He was asked to sacrifice his only son then, and he obeyed Allah swt. He was asked to leave his wife and son, at a place where there were no signs of life. He obeyed Allah swt. Likewise , he submitted to Allah swt in every way . Here, why is it so tough for you to submit to Allah swt. Just claiming that i believe in Allah swt is n;t enough. Your belief shud be expressed in actions. Answer to these situations After getting married to him, will he allow you to wear Hijab ? He may want you to accompany you to some party and at the other side you may have to miss Zuhr, Asr and Maghrib salah. What will you do ? Remember, even if you offer all the 24 hours and the remaining days of your life any ibadah, you cannot fulfill the loss you made up by missing one salah. If you wish to offer hajj, can you ? or will you forsake this wish which every muslim heart yearns to fulfill it ? Like wise there are many aspects wherein, many contradictions may arise. Companions of Prophet {peace be upon him}, and there lives are to good examples for us. Right now, i would like to discuss of a sahabiya - { i don't remember her name exactly, but i guess its, Umm Salem RA}. She denied a proposal of a sahaba { i guess it was Talha RA}, who then did not embrace Islam, She said, how can i marry a mushrik when he disbelieves Allah swt?" Talha RA, wished to get married to her. He studied Islam and then embraced it. Remember, he did not embrace Islam for the sake of Umm Salem RA, but for the sake of Allah swt. Prophet saws, would have then allowed there marriage as mushriks did believe in Allah, apart from idol worships --. Anyways, if agrees to study Islan again, let him start up looking into Qur'an. Present him a Qur'an with its commentary. Give some time to him. Keep praying , that Allah swt bestows hidayah to him. You know very well, that Islam is the only true religion acceptable before Allah swt. If he really believes in Allah then am sure he shall also believe in the word of Allah swt..Also be mindful that speaking to non-mahrams is a sin in Islam. Go for group discussions and speak to the point to him. If he is intrested in studying Islam, we the members of IslamiCity shall be happy to help him. Am sure, you must be very regular to your salah, so keep praying Allah swt for it . Don't be under misconception that you are believing in Allah swt, whereas you are disobeying His commands. Let your faith get practiced. Am sure if even he believes and obeys the command of Allah swt, he shall know the real meaning of peace, as he experiences it too.Then can you both work for the spread of peace - i.e Islam. There is no single command in Islam, which is against peace. Anyways, hope you ponder over it. May Allah swt bestow you with a strong faith and save all of us from such tests. Ameen As a muslim we are to remind each other of the truth as said in the Quran, "watawassaw bil haqqi" - This is to perform acts of obedience and avoid the forbidden things. This was my duty as a muslim towards you. Now, its upon you to follow it or whatsoever. admin: the font was too small, has been resized |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 6:53am
With all due respect to Seekshidayath, I had to point this out - especially since a non-muslim is in on the discussion and so may wonder. . .
Speaking to unrelated/non-mahram males is not a sin in Islam. However, any sort of romantic liasons, correspondence is a sin in Islam. Which means muslims can communicate/speak to members of the oppositte sex, without sinning - as long as they keep romantic interests, and sexuality out of things.
To the Sister in Question: Have you tried Istikhara? It is reccommended by Prophet Muhammad for whenever a muslim is faced with inner turmoil and a difficult decision. If you wish to know more about the prayer of Istikhara, will be happy to provide details. And ask Allah to relieve your problem, or help you find a way, and to take matters into His own hands. Also pray that if this decision is bad for you, to turn your heart the other way as well.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: peacelovedarfur
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 8:27am
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"Few other posts of the last page implie that you are still in the process of decision. He does n't hesitate, to follow any of the commands of Allah swt. You must be knowing that Jews. Christians and even the Mushirks of Makkah, also believed in One God - Allah swt. Yet they were called as "disbelievers" in Islam. Though they believed in Allah swt, yet disbelieved the command of Allah swt to believe in the Prophet He had chosen. SO they were called as disbelivers in the Qur'an. When it is plain and simple that marriage with a DISBELIEVER, is n't permitted, then why are you going for it ?" I know what I want to choose but I am still in doubt for I also know what the Islamic doctrine is and being concious of its entire dissagreement it leaves me no peace. But I am not Muslim because I believe Islam is the only way, yes, it is the straighest of paths but Allah(swt) would not be All-Merciful and All-Loving if he ruled the People of the Book out, who are not Unbelievers and fervently worship the one and only Lord of the Universe while taking example from one of the most treasured phrophets of humanity. Their path is a path to Allah(swt) too, it has only when left and forgotten by the majority or blocked by thorns of distortion- they themselves, those who really do follow Isa(pbuh) can be of the best believers. And no, Phrophet Muhammed(pbuh) from the beginning of our faith had recognized them as followers of Allah's messengers whose divine messages are explicitly recognized by Islam, the unbelievers where the idol worshipers and now the atheists. As for submitting to Allah(swt) inshallah I have been and as for this jihad I am trying, but I having the hardest time believing he would disapprove something so pure and good as love especially knowing that both our hearts are turned towards him.Your Questions:
-For the hijab, that is my own decision and I have only just recently started wearing last month but I dont know whether I shall wear it permanantly or not-but again that is my decision.
-Allah gave us a time frame to pray so we may complete it within that time, I could go seperate room or even pray before I go(arent Arabs at least 2 hours late anyways, what will 5 minutes do?). And why would I miss a Salat ever? It marks all life with its sacred rhytm, and, from dawn to night, brings me before God and prevents me from being submerged in material and worldly concerns.
-Thomas has even expressed want to go with me to Hajj and I would never miss that for anything. Hajj being our journey back to the centre, the ocus of Islamic Unity to walk amoung and with my ummah.Inshallah, that will be my parents graduation present for me :).
admin: the font was too small, has been rezized
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 8:29am
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As'Salamu Alaikum
JazakiAllahu Khayr sister {Chrysallis} for correcting me. I was speaking in the context of this situation wherein speaking to non-mahrams in privacy. Hope you shall look into it if it is permitted , and share with us here.
You very well see the result right here, of being in privacy. Satan has whispered and she listened to it and now living with unrest and unpeaceful mind.
And regarding Isteqarah, i wonder why did you recommend it. If i wish to loot a bank , shud i go for isteqara. Isteqara shud be done in those issues , which are permitted in Islam. There marriage is n't permissible at all.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 10:43am
because we believe in the same God, and as long as that is the case I will never attempt to dissuade her from worshipping Him or carrying out her religious duties, despite them being different from my own way of worshipping Him. As a Christian, I am taught to pray almost constantly, how then would praying out loud with her 5 times a day, in order to maintain family unity, be in conflict with my own beliefs? I am currently not inclined believe in Mohammed, for various reasons, the discussion of which would derail this topic (but which I am very much open to having later). Let it suffice to say that I am convinced of the truth of Christianity, but also always willing to weigh new evidence and rethink my beliefs in pursuit of truth. And for the sake of unity I will always be willing to join her in any form of worship of the one God that does not conflict with my own beliefs.
1) I will NEVER force her to dress in any way that would compromise her beliefs or her modesty. I think you forget that by my beliefs husband and wife are equals, and furthermore I believe that every human being is one of God's image-bearers (he created us in his likeness) and that the right to free will and making your own decisions--good or bad--is inherent to that. 2) Her spiritual needs would be treated with the same urgency as my own, if we must recess from the party, or simply not attend in order to pray, so be it. 3) though making that journey does not carry the same spiritual significance for me that it does for her, there is no reason I can not travel with her. A husband and wife must be as one, why then do you assume that my needs, or in some cases lack thereof, would always take precedence over hers?
I have noticed in the past, and I notice again, that Muslims and Christians have different understandings of sin. I know that you do not believe in the concept of Original Sin. We (Christians); however, believe that what you call sins are only symptoms of a much deeper underlying problem, which is that since the time of Adam and Eve, humans have been flawed, imperfect beings, missing the mark of what God meant for us. Interestingly the English word sin comes from an old archery term that means quite literally "missing the mark." So everytime we commit a sin, we are simply demonstrating by how much we are missing the mark--hence the need for God's covenant with us in the person of Jesus Christ. From this view you can see God's laws for us falling into 2 separate categories. Thinks we shouldn't do because they denigrate God's glory or other people--God's image bearers, and through our hurt to them we also hurt Him. These are things like murder, lying, stealing, blasphemy, lust, etc. The other sort are His laws that He gave us out of His love for us....laws to protect us from things that might harm us: things that could put our faith in jeopardy, things that could make us sick or hurt us, and things that could harm our mental or emotional health. These are things like warnings against certain foods, marrying outside our own religion, having multiple partners for sex (this actually falls into the other category as well), and other things that would be harmful to us. We do not serve an arbitrary God either, everything he does has a reason behind it, and he always works in our best interests (not necessarily physically, but spiritually). One has only to look at the laws of physics to see this. His warnings against certain foods make perfect sense from a medical standpoint. Every one of those foods mentioned in the old testament was loaded with bacteria and other diseases, that ancient cultures had no of way treating. God didn't just feel like saying "don't eat pigs, I don't want you to." He put that law there because he cares for us, and doesn't want us to suffer as a result of our own foolish decisions. By the same measure, the law against multiple partners makes perfect sense on a biochemical level--strong emotional bonding chemicals are released into your body during sex that are released by no other biological process. To have multiple partners can be very emotionally devastating, because this intense bond, that is only supposed to happen between you and one other person, is tearing you in multiple directions. Our God knows that, and put those laws there to protect us. And finally I come to the warning against marrying outside our own religions. One only has to look at Solomon and the other old testament kings of Israel to see how spiritually seductive and devastating that can be. Yet Solomons wives worshipped different gods. In my case, she and I worship the same God. The one loving, amazing, gracious, omniscient, omnipotent God who created the universe and set the stars in motion. It would be foolish to think that we won't have conflicts, especially since we acknowledge the validity of a different set of prophets. Yet the resolution of each conflict can only lead both of us to seek harder after the truth, and grow closer to God. With this being said, I challenge you to explain to me why our continued relationship, and potential marriage would be sinful. I do not want to be answered by a single verse from the Qur'an or from the Bible. I want you to take that verse and explain how it applies to us in light of God's love for us, and his desire to protect us from harm. |
Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 10:43am
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well how many times we listen to such cases of internet love and its consequences which are before everyones eye but still we people dont want to learn from them. everyone has the same replies mine cant be a liar. Marriage with an internet buddy is a faraway thing, i dont even count such love over internet as love but just a way of deceiving/fooling ur ownself. anyhow if u still want to proceed ignoring all such cases, i'll proceed as well. we all know what is GODs verdict on this issye. islam is cleary against such marriages. when God says something (as he knows everything) there is always a reason behind it. its not like he just wanted to too so he he added it there is always some logic behind his every saying which is surely for the betterment of us human beings. He in advance warns us of the negative consequences of our actions which he stops us from. ofcourse if such marriages were not harmful he wouldnt have stopped us from them in the 1st place but since he has, then there must be some reason which ofcourse we know what are they. These decisions are mostly emotional taken in the heat of the moment where one prefers his heart over his brain where one stops thinking and blindly follows where ever his/her heart takes him/her. i for once would want u to listen to what ur mind says over the voices inside ur heart. and think about it. Why did God stop us, will he allow u excerise/fullfill ur religious duties/maintain ur religious beliefs, what will be faith of ur children, will he let them follow ur faith. will ur inner self be satisfied. do give it a thought. take this as a test of God that God is testing u that who would u prefer, 'ur love' or 'GODs words'. and who knows in the future u might think this to be a very good decision and u might live a very satisfied/good life which (if it happens) will surely be a reward for passing GODs test. now take this as a motivator and fight it off. and as someone said about isteqara., i guess there is no need for that as we already know of GODs decision. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 2:53pm
If the muslimah has dedicated herself to being a slave to Allah(swt) and obeying the Prophet Mohammad (p.b.u.h) then I find it impossible for her to love a man that rejects the last Prophet. I don't believe it's real love nor would I ever believe it's love that Allah (swt) developed between the two of you. It could be alot of other things, but not love. |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 3:31pm
I feel like you missed out on a lot of this topic, perhaps you should go back re-read it and revise your post? a lot of those points have already been discussed and answered, and I like to hear people's responses to my answers. that being said, I guess I should clarify a couple things. I don't think the original purpose of this topic was to discuss marriage. In our case that is likely to be at least 6 years off. It is however fairly safe to assume, that if our relationship continues that long, that marriage will be the end result.
your point is absolutely valid, however I would point out that, at least as I commonly see it defined, planning multiple years into the future would not be considered doing something in the heat of the moment. If then we are still prohibited from such a relationship, there must still be some reason why it is harmful to us. So far I feel like I've done a pretty good job of responding to suggestions of things that could be harmful to us, but if anyone feels that my responses did not adequately cover the possibility, or has another reason in mind, please share, so that through discussion both of us will grow in our thinking, and so that she and I can come to a decision with which we are comfortable.
layalee, would you be willing to share your definition of what real love entails, so that we may discover what aspect of that is lacking in our relationship. |
Posted By: layalee
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 4:19pm
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Thomas we as humans have a tendency of developing our own definitions of what love is. Love can fall under alot of definitions and feelings. But as a Muslim we learn that the love we have for someone is for the sake of Allah(swt). Love never contradicts the teachings and guidance of Allah(swt). So for a muslimah to love a unbeliever in the way that is described contradicts the guidance that Allah (swt) has given us as muslims. It's very challenging to be led back on the right path when one goes astray. But of course Allah(swt) makes all things possible. Insha'Allah, I hope the sister that started this post will disregard her emotions and think more logical. |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 4:57pm
I completely agree with most of that post. However rather than using an interpretation of Allah's will to determine what can and can not be considered love, should we not take the definitions and examples of love he has given to us in his scriptures to clarify when the meanings of his other words are unclear? For you say I am not a believer, yet the description that has been given to me of Allah is quite identical to the description of the God I have been raised to believe in since I was born. And it is my belief in him that leads me to be wary of believing in the one you call the last Prophet. I do not yet reject him, but I haven't yet been shown evidence worthy of matching the evidence that has been presented to me in support of the LORDship of Jesus. Yet since in that one way our scriptures conflict with each other, only one can truly be the word of God. Until the evidence that is presented to me in favor of Muhammad is considerably stronger, I can not logically abandon the faith I have. Both sets of my grandparents, my parents, have of my aunts and uncles have at one time in their life or another been Christian missionaries and/or ministers of the Christian faith, and the physical evidence of an evil power setting itself against their (and other missionaries) spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the physical evidence of God supporting them in their endeavours is nearly insurmountable. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 6:23pm
Sister, can't you wait for few more years. It seems to me by reading his posts that he has got many misconceptions about Islam. Let him study Islam once again. Let him start up threads of discussions about his doubts. Do you think that you will have peace of mind, if you marry him in this state ? No ! sister., since the thought shall always prick you that you are living illegally, going against the commands of Allah swt. Anyways, let him start up studying Qura'an not for your sake but with the intention to read the word of Allah, whom he believes in, ;Let him look into it as what Allah swt is addressing him .
Sister, you must be knowing very well that the only religion accepted before Allah swt, is Islam, rest all disbelivers are headed towards hell. If you truly love him, then try to convey him the right message. You may not tolerate if i abuse him while discussions. { Allah swt forbid, am not so}, suppose if i do so, Will you not get hurted or feel bad ? How will you look this into hereafter, when disbelievers are dragged in hell. So sister, try your best to convey the true message of Islam to him. Not just him, but to all those around you who are disbelievers.
Allah swt is Merciful. He shall fogive those to whom either this message was n't conveyed or conveyed in a wrong way --{He is the best judge}, but tothose who donot believe and obey His message, hell is there destination.
A mother loves her child very much. But will she not punish him , if he disobeys her. Just by saying that since she loves the child, and child also loves her, does n;t stop her to punish her son if he is disobeying. Allah swt knows the best
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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 7:02pm
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All my praises be to Allah swt ! Incidentally, i happened to read this in a book and was happy to read what i was looking for yesterday,
I guessed right correct that it was Umm Sulaym and Abu Talhah {May Allah swt be pleased with them}. Umm Sulaym rejected his proposal. These were her lines, " O Abu Talhah ., a man like you could not be turned away. but you are a disbelieving man and I am a Muslim woman. It is not permitted for me to marry you, but if you were to embrace Islam , that would be my dowry and I would ask you nothing more" Such great women are examples worthy of emulation , from whom Muslim women may learn purity of faith , strength of character , soundness of belief and wisdom in choosing a husband. Later as said, Abu Talhah studied Islam and believed in Muhammad { Pbuh} as the messenger of Allah swt.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 7:35pm
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Thomasd, kindly read this Quran by clicking the link below. It is with its commentary.
http://www.tafheem.net/main.html - http://www.tafheem.net/main.html
Left side, little below, you shall find the chapter. You can click any of the chapters and read it.
You believe in One God. Certainly, He too loves you. We pray Allah swt that he bestows you with the true path . Ameen
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 8:48pm
thank you for that, I will take my time reading it. Might I recommend that you take the time to find a copy of the book Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis? I think it would be well worth your while. Second question, are you aware of any scholarly studies on the historicity of the Qur'an that I could look into? I know that not nearly as much research has been done on it, as on the Bible.
and just to clear things up again, we are nowhere near marriage considerations at this point. its just that if there is any chance of this being long term its something we need to think about |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 1:57am
Interesting that you know of something that even the Prophets and Messengers did not. This is a statement I have a few more words to say on, however I do not wish to derail the discussion.
H300 & SeeksHidayath:
About Istikhara, I believe one needs to look at the translation of the Dua of Istikhara to better understand when it can be/should be done. It is not merely a dua asking Allah to bless our action, but is reccommended when one's nafs is in turmoil, and the mind cannot distinguish which path to take. It is to ask Allah for blessings as well as Hidayath/guidance.
As for the bank robbing example. . . Seeks, those who clearly can distinguish b/w right & wrong are amongst the blessed ones with Hidayath. Not everybody can do that. . . which is why ppl commit crimes or sin. The knowledge of right & wrong is not to be taken for granted. Infact often a times, a person may have the knowledge, yet may get confused. I'm sure everyone has had a point or the other when the nafs, despite knowing has been in turmoil. I'm sure even Bank Robbers know they are commiting a crime, yet they manage to convince thier nafs that thier situation is justifed. Which is why, I would reccommend Istikhara for anyone who is battling with thier nafs as to which path to take. For it is our belief and faith in Allah, that when a person asks Allah for Hidayath - He gives it. And I believe that you nor I could convince the couple in question - But Allah would defintley guide them and give them Hidayath.
Let us take a look at the Dua of Istikhara:
According to Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 21, Number 263: I have highlighted the aspects of the Dua that I feel are specially relevant to the Sister, as well as anyone who is torn b/w a decision - whether right or wrong. Because if the decision is wrong, Allah will give the person Hidayath.
(Translation): "O Allah! I seek goodness from Your Knowledge and with Your Power (and Might) I seek strength, and I ask from You Your Great Blessings, because You have the Power and I do not have the power. You Know everything and I do not know, and You have knowledge of the unseen. Oh Allah! If in Your Knowledge this action --------------- (which I intend to do) is better for my religion and faith, for my life and end [death], for here [in this world] and the hereafter then make it destined for me and make it easy for me and then add blessings [baraka'] in it, for me. O Allah! In Your Knowledge if this action is bad for me, bad for my religion and faith, for my life and end [death], for here [in this world] and the hereafter then turn it away from me and turn me away from it and whatever is better for me, ordain [destine] that for me and then make me satisfied with it."
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: peacelovedarfur
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 7:31am
Firstly, I do understand Arabic so no need to write an english translation unless you enjoy doing so :P. Secondly, As for my belief in God, I'm not sure how much you can really judge me only knowing only my jihad. Islam is a way of life so it is impossible to not "act out" upon the faith, my worship through the five pillars is true and steady but from faith itself in the one and only Lord of the universe-Allah, I begot Joy, Courage, Knowledge, Hope, Love, renewed senses to understand him, a wholeness in myself,with my ummah and humanity and, a life of purpose and meaning: such do I base my actions on. And since according to Muhammed(pbuh) a prostitute goes to heaven for giving a cat water before herself, I believe any who acts with the same components I listed above is a believer and will not go to hell for God understands our hearts and is All-Forgiving and All-Merciful.
I would not be a muslim if I didnt believe so.
But no matter what reward, Thomas is still a believer, even according Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
My Questions:
Hijab: in the Quran it says only to cover up your bosom and private parts and was only a practice of Muhammads' wives whom he wished privacy and security to and latter once the Persians came into power it became culture and wear of the upperclass. Today the Hijiab is our flag, our example to the people and a reminder to ourselves but it is still ones choice.
Salat: something new I read: "The Lslamic prayer synthesises the forms of submission and worship of all created beings: the trees and mountains stand upright, the stars rise and set, the animals are bowed, and every living thing draws its nourishment from the earth." (Unveiling Islam) isnt that beautiful?!
Hajj: Inshallah
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Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 9:44am
i guess we all know what Gods verdict/order on such marriages is. its not like nothing has been said regarding such matter in quran. so from that one can fairly say that we know what Gods decision would be. im sure u would agree me here. as u stated that 'the mind cannot distinguish which path to take' i Guess Allah has quite clearly stated the path in this case so do we still need Istikhara. i'll like to give an example i have got two fields ahead of me to choose from, one to become an engineer and 2nd to be a chartered account but i dont know which field to choose, which will be the best for me, so over here doing Istikhara does make a valid point bcz nothing has been mentioned regarding which career i should choose in quran and hadith but in the ladies case things are pretty clear, God has already given his verdict which we all muslims should follow. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 6:20pm
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As'Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,
Sister Peaceloved arfur :
Let me clear your misconception as why i add english translation of the arabic words, - since there are many other readers apart from you, who are reading. If it were a private message , i would have not done so. I believe that every act of ours is a dawah in itself {Directly or indirectly} . Many may learn the meaning , or the way of interaction which Islam taught us and also that if we are wrong, we can get corrected ---. Its a way we learn from each other.Am open for both. I ENJOY that way.
 Anyways, that were my opinions.Can you prove me thru Qur'an and hadith that people like thomas, who believe in oneness of Allah, and also believe Jesus is a God, in human form are believers in Islam ?
{Leave aside your feelings or opinions for him, while showing up here, the characteristics of a believer}
Secondly, let me also clear that am not judging you. nor can i ? Allah swt knows you and me well. They were just reminders for all of us. I always keep in my mind while posting that those non-muslims who are intrested in studying Islam also do read it. They get to learn a lot from such discussions.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 6:35pm
I do not believe Jesus is a god in human form, I believe he is the God in human form. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 7:05pm
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Regarding your opinions of Hijab
"
Hijab: in the Quran it says only to cover up your bosom and private parts and was only a practice of Muhammads' wives whom he wished privacy and security to and latter once the Persians came into power it became culture and wear of the upperclass. Today the Hijiab is our flag, our example to the people and a reminder to ourselves but it is still ones choice."
Let's see the verses from the Qur'an and its commentaries along with hadiths as well
Chappter 24 - An- Nur . verse : 31.
"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except that which is apparent, and to draw their veils all over their Juyub and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their women, or their right hand possessions, or the Tabi`in among men who do not have desire, or children who are not aware of the nakedness of women. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be
successful"
(their veils all over their Juyub) means, over their necks and chests so that nothing can be seen of them.
Al-Bukhari recorded that `A'ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, said: "May Allah have mercy on the women of the early emigrants. When Allah revealed the Ayah: (and to draw their veils all over their Juyub), they tore their aprons and Akhtamar themselves with them.''
He also narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that `A'ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, used to say: "When this Ayah: (and to draw their veils all over their Juyub) was revealed, they took their Izars (waistsheets) and tore them at the edges, and Akhtamar themselves with them.''
From the same chapter, we have an other verse : {60}
" And the Qawa`id among women who do not hope for marriage, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain is better for them. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower"
(And the Qawa`id among women.) Sa`id bin Jubayr, Muqatil bin Hayyan, Ad-Dahhak and Qatadah said that these are the women who no longer think that they can bear children,
(who do not hope for marriage,) meaning, they no longer have any desire for marriage,
(it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment.) meaning, they do not have to cover themselves in the same way that other women have to
Here are few more hadiths, which let us know about the outer garment.
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4481. The following version was narrated by Abu Dawood (4102):
May Allah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allah revealed the words �and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)�, they tore the thickest of their aprons (a kind of garment) and covered their faces with them.
Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari: There is a report of Ibn Abi Haatim via �Abd-Allaah ibn �Uthmaan ibn Khaytham from Safiyyah that explains that. This report says: We mentioned the women of Quraysh and their virtues in the presence of �Aa�ishah and she said: �The women of Quraysh are good, but by Allah I have never seen any better than the women of the Ansaar, or any who believed the Book of Alla h more strongly or had more faith in the Revelation. When Soorat al- Noor was revealed � �and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna� � their menfolk came to them and recited to them what had been revealed, and there was not one woman among them who did not go to her apron, and the following morning they prayed wrapped up as if there were crows on their heads.
It was narrated from �Urwah that �Aa�ishah said: The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) used to pray Fajr and the believing women would attend (the prayer) with him, wrapped in their aprons, then they would go back to their houses and no one would recognize them.
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 365; Muslim, 645.
|
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 12:46am
Oh . Yes !! - the God in human form
.Thank you for the correction. By the way, Thomas, can u start up an other thread regarding your questions over Quranic history. Many topics are cropping up from this single one. They are deep and so need more discussions.
Did you read any Seerah {Life of Prophet Muhammad Pbuh}
Here is the biography -
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/index.htm - http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/index.htm
Kindly do read it.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 6:01am
I have not yet had that chance, I am waiting until the weekend when I can give it my full attention. Have you given any thought to obtaining a copy of C.S. Lewis's book "Mere Christianity" as I suggested?
Of course. I also planning on starting a more in depth discussion on my personal reasons for belief in Christianity. |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:59am
Thomas might be a believer, in his own beliefs i.e. Jesus (as the God in human form = shirk) , Bible , humanity, goodness etc.
However he is not a Believer in Islam. And this was not meant as an insult to him, but was just an explanation. Anyone who does not Believe that God is ONE, and is UNIQUE (unlike anyother, which includes humans - which Thomas believes was a form of God i.e Jesus) and who does not believe in Muhammad as the final Prophet of God, is not a Muslim, hence not a Believer in Islam.
And perhaps you may mind me saying this, but I will anyway; I think you are using this term again and again to try and convince yourself that he is a Believer - while knowing deep inside that he is not one. Which is why your heart told you to turn to Allah and Islam for an answer. Had you truly believed that, your Nafs would not have pricked your conscience. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 12:07pm
Indeed H3, that Allah has clearly stated His commandments . . . however despite that, muslims sometimes go through phases with thier Imaan - when the mind cannot distinguish which path to take i.e. the Path of Allah, or the one which the Nafs desires. . . which is why I reccommended Istikhara. Thus the Istikhara is to ask for Allah's help to align our mind & heart's decision with that of Allah's. . . and I would reccommend referring to the last part of Dua Istikhara which says that make my heart satisfied with the right decision. . . etc.
I also have far more trust in Allah's Ability to give Hidayath and convince the heart of His Creation compared to mine or your ability to convince another. Which is why I suggested that she turn to Allah for help through Istikhara.
------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 1:12pm
Your explanation is pretty close to the sign in Surah Baqara: Translation by Muhammad Asad
2:221 AND DO NOT marry women who ascribe divinity to aught beside God ere they attain to [true] belief: for any believing bondwoman [of God]208) ../Quransearch/action.lasso.asp?-database=Quran&-Table=tblMasterTranslit&-Response=Sreply1.asp&-Error=SReply1.asp&-MaxRecords=25&-token=Asad%7C%7C%3Cta%3Efalse%3C/ta%3E%3Ctt%3Efalse%3C/tt%3E%3Cts%3Efalse%3C/ts%3E%3Cdc%3Etrue%3C/dc%3E%3Ctx%3Etrue%3C/tx%3E%3Cal%3Efalse%3C/al%3E&-op=qrange&CV=2:221&-sortorder=Ascend&-sortfield=cv&-Search# - And do not give your women in marriage to men who ascribe divinity to aught beside God ere they attain to [true] belief: for- any believing bondman [of God] is certainly better than a man who ascribes divinity to aught beside God, even though he please you greatly. [Such as] these invite unto the fire, whereas God invites unto paradise, and unto [the achievement of] forgiveness by His leave; and He makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might bear them in mind. Considering this clear injunction there is no discussion on the role of parent/ attorney which is so defined in any proper Islamic contract? What is the role of the father in this transaction? It seems he is AWOL! THe above quoted sign is pretty succinct on the subject without needing an escape clause! But this is happening in the USA life liberty and pursuit of happiness- pay attention to the word pursuit not guaranteed!
------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Al-Baqara (The Cow)
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 6:41pm
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[QUOTE=thomasd] I have not yet had that chance, I am waiting until the weekend when I can give it my full attention. Thanks again. So waiting for many threads to be started
Have you given any thought to obtaining a copy of C.S. Lewis's book "Mere Christianity" as I suggested?
No, i did not. But yes, since last month i started studying christianity. I did not enter into that discussions, at an other thread of yours, since am still new it. I shall ask my tutor of it. and let you know soon,
I do know the answer to that explanation of Adam, and Jesus's temptations as well, but unable to properly frame up. As said, am new to that study. I shall try my best to let you Islamic thoughts regarding that subject soon, insha Allah [ Allah Wills]. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 1:54pm
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Salaams,
i just noticed this thread.
PeaceloveDarfur: I think as a Muslim woman you are facing a very difficult decision regarding your life. It can be very hard to give up things in the Dunya...
I think people are right in that you are writing as you are struggling with the decision.
I once heard Dr. Naik say that it is easier to talk to an athiest than people who aspire other beliefs. Especially it may be harder as both of you have strong beliefs. I knew a man, let a s a "potential" marriage person right after I did my Shahada. He was theoretically Muslim but really did not follow much. Had married a Christian woman and allowed for his kids to be raised Christian. And he did not have strong beliefs.. but what will you do if the come to beleive Jesus is not just a Prophet, but literally God, in huam form, but also son oF God., etc? And in fact disavow the Prophet Mohammed?
Marriage is, if nothing else, about practical matters. It is about structure and meeting the physical, spiritual/religious, social and economic needs of people. And that should be the focus. Love lots of people, no problem. Many friends I have are nonMuslim.. as well as my family. But there is a big difference if I were to marry anyone.
Even when I was still solidifying Islam for myself as a new Muslim, I would meet, "weak" Muslims. And something in my heart pulled me away. I may have felt culturally comfortable with them, but I knew that the difference in the long run would be problematic.
Hijab: as wsa posted and is accepted by the vast majority of scholars is required-fard. Niqab, what the wives of the Prophet (PBUH) were asked to wear is not (by the majority of scholars). Yes of course it is a "choice" just like the choice to do prayers, eat pork, drink and fast.
As you said this is your jihad. It is your test.. I send you my Duas.
------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 2:42pm
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Assalamu Alaikum:
In the end everything is a choice. It's how we choose that is important and what we will bring with us on the Day of Judgement. ------------- �No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.� Eleanor Roosevelt |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 1:47pm
thank you, I am eager to hear what you have to say. I began reading the annotated Qur'an you linked to, and the first disagreement I had was in the commentary for Surah 2:4. (Correct me if this is not the correct way to reference a quote from the Qur'an).
it is absolutely essential to be able to reason out the meanings of scripture beyond what is explicitly stated in the text, by looking at historical context, language, and other channels (such as science, for He created the physical laws which govern this universe as well as the spirtual ones) through which God has revealed parts of the nature of his character.
I think that while scripture is key to a working understanding of God, that God also chooses to reveal himself to people on an individual basis as they grow in their faith.
this I agree with completely, and find it to be contradictory to the first 2 pieces I quoted from the commentary. Faith and reason are tied hand in hand for we do not serve a God who's decisions are arbitrary, and to say that one must rely on faith alone and then to say "seek truth wherever it can be found" is a blatant contradiction. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 8:15pm
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http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12831&PID=108374#108374 -
Kindly click here
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12831&PID=108374#108374 ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 July 2008 at 2:04pm
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MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis You are suggesting bro seekshidayath to read Lewis' book Mere
Christianity a sort of for you his asking you read Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)�s
biography! Br. S�h may respond in his own time but I would
like to add my two cents on the subject
as far my memories will assist me in my golden years! It seems you are equating Lewis by default in the
same category as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Lewis may
be an example of a great scholar and intellectual of his time who also left his
faith to be an atheist and later converted to Christianity under the influence
of his friend fantasy writer J R Tolkien and his disappointment to Anglicanism
rather Tolkien�s Roman Catholicism!. And the influence of Lewis�s other fiction
books created more fiction writers likes of J K Rowling of Harry Potter fame
etc And I know our fundamentalist Christian neighbor expressly banned her kids
from the Harry Potter readings! I wouldn�t know why! LOL I am not into fiction and or fantasy writers but
my kids are crazy about The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter stuff for their
age! About the time period of history of Lewis�s
lectures when the Brit�s- the Anglicans were at Germans- the Lutherans and
Catholics were at each other�s throats the jury is still out! My first perusal
many years ago didn�t leave any convincing validity of Christian beliefs due to
his Trilemma! For the starters Lewis concludes the
"Preface" by saying that he sees Christianity as a great house with a
large hall. Different rooms leading off the hall are the different
denominations. He said that he is not primarily concerned about which room
Christians occupy, but he is concerned about getting them into the hall. Lewis might have been speaking and writing to the
people in the rooms, and possibly even to those in the hall more like preaching
to the choir, but if you really think the time frame of the book the Brits had
a occupied(colonized) a good portion of the known world and Hitler wanted to get his hands on those
lands! The inhabitants of that were people with one main divine religion of
Islam! The way things turned out Hitler lost in his
attempt for the reasons not to be discussed here but the hall and the room
where Anglican entered seems they made a wrong choice and want to get out of
the house. In the I think, because most of his readers are
Christians who buy the book because they are looking for substantiation. They
are not searchers of truth. Any writer can capture a sympathetic audience by
capitalizing on those areas that everyone " presume " to be right. History is filled with examples of what
Christians "morality" has done
to worsen our lot. Whole cities can be gleefully exterminated in their God's name. Why else were the
Christian-dominated centuries called the "Dark" Ages? For the sake of discussion relevancy here I would
get to the chapter of CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE: QUOTE�A
great many people seem to think that if you area Christian yourself you should
try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I
know I should be very angry if the Mohammedans tried to prevent the rest of us
from drinking wine.� In the above quoted passage it indicates how ignorant Lewis is to call Muslims as Mohammedans which is obvious that his mentality is colonialist or orientalist and outdated for a discussion amongst the true followers of divine religions! It is an insult to a true Muslim it that simple! The British colonialists had an agenda to destroy Islam and degrade Muslims in their understanding of sacred traditions! In this they made all the attempts to trivialize the name of Muhammad(pbuh) and assisted their agents to malign the Prophet- the knighting of Rushdie comes to mind! What they preached in the colonies that Muhammad(pbuh) created this religion on his own with no link to Abrahamic traditions! All of their attempts have backfired upon them;
people are finally waking up from the slumber and want their pristine Islam and
the Brits are back attacking the Muslims whether it is Afghanistan or Iraq or
Pakistan next, the ME is under their neo colonial grips along with the new
Israelites! �
�My own view is that the Churches should frankly recognise that the majority of the British people are
not Christians and, therefore, cannot be expected to live Christian
livesThere ought to be two distinct kinds of marriage: one governed by the
State with rules enforced on all citizens, the other governed by the Church with rules enforced by her on her own members. The distinction ought to be quite sharp, so that
a man knows which couples are
married in a Christian sense and which are not� He forgot to add just shacking up! The Anglican are reverting to Islam in Pay special attention on the red highlighted here
and I would like to see what you come up with your understanding!!!) �Before leaving the question of divorce, I
should like to distinguish two
things which are very often
confused. The Christian conception of marriage
is one: the
other is the
quite different question-now
far Christians, if they
are voters or Members of Parliament,
ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by
embodying them in the divorce laws.� When I read the narrative of the section
Christian Marriage, I just laughed what was Lewis smoking----Couldn�t he see
what was written on the wall and coming down the pike! about the state of marriage in Europe and for that matter even in the states side! I think quid pro quo Lewis for Prophet(pbuh) bio is comparing
apple with orange! Let's be honest how would you justify you marrying a "Muhammadan" in which category will fit your scenario in? ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 7:47pm
no. I am suggesting that he read a scholarly work on the Bible to gain a deeper understanding of it in the same way he is asking me to seek a deeper understanding of the Qur'an.
some Christians don't draw a distinction between the word magic as used in fantasy literature and the practice of communing with evil spirits.
C.S. Lewis was writing as an apologist, which by definition means that he was attempting to convince those who weren't Christians of the truth of Christianity through the use of reasoned arguments. He had no interest in "preaching to the choir."
because of vacuum of knowledge brought on by the fall of Rome. I assure you, I mean no offense when I say that this argument can be applied http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire - just as easily to Islam . If you have the gall to debate this point further, take the time to read a suitably translated copy of the Hungarian classic "Eclipse of the Crescent Moon," or more recently the atrocities committed by Ottoman forces during World War I. Let us not judge a religion by things that have been done in its name. And I want to make it very clear to you that labeling the dark ages as a Christian dominated era in time is just as offensive to me as I'm sure labeling the attacks on September 11, 2001 an Islam sponsored event is to the users of this forum. Posts like you just made are completely detrimental to efforts of those who try to reconcile God's followers of different religious traditions. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 9:19am
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thomasd: Please continue your comments to the end! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 3:46pm
huh? that was as much as I had to say... |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 20 November 2008 at 6:43pm
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hello everyone! I just returned from my visitation to the west coast, where I spent 4 of my 6 weeks staying with her family. her uncle, her, and i had several excellent discussions comparing the theologies of Islam and Christianity. they were also kind enough to give me an english translation of the Qur'an as a gift, which will likely lead to some interesting discussions in the topic that seekshidayath was kind enough to start for me. in the meantime I had on question that seemed particularly suited to the discussion in this topic as to whether or not I am a "believer" by Islamic standards. 1) there were several places in the Qur'an (I *think* in the chapter discussing Jesus's family history....I don't remember what it was called), that acknowledged us "people of the book" as believers in God. 2) I have, over the course of the last 2 months, had Islam repeatedly defined to me as nothing more or less than submission to God, something which I strive to achieve (as does anyone who has a true faith in him) 3) I recently read that history shows that Muhammed viewed the Jews and Christians as his natural allies, sharing his core beliefs, and that this was part of the motivation for his move to Medina. |
Posted By: Imani
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 12:58am
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salam.
sorry for not visiting this post lately.
this is to the one who wrote the post
well i think this relationship sould not go on.
if he is willing to accept Islam then there is no problem.
But knowing that he is a disbeliever and you still want to hold on with the relationship is like going against the will of ALLAH. Remember the abode of the disbilievers is the hell fire. Are you willing to let your husband be part of the disbilevers? If the answer is 'no' then you can not have anything to do with him. ------------- "But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7) peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 3:37am
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Hello br, Thomas,
Glad to see you. Just yesterday, i was thinking of you both. Happened to share this thread at an other section. So remembered you. Am very happy to see you at IC. Hope you shall be active.
Also, happy to know that you had been into discussions of Islam and Christianity and were gifted with Qur'an. May Allah swt bless you with hidayah soon
Coming to the discussion of the questions you posted, i wish you to kindly elaborate them.
Out of what i understood is, you said , Qur'an at several places acknowledged "people of book" as believers in God. YES, truly they are believers of God.
There is an ayah in Qur'an, "
"O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we do not erect, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than Allah." Quran 3:64 We have many things in common. We believe in One God, we believe in destiny, angels, we have prophets in common, like Idris {Enoch}, Noah, Musa, Ibrahim [May peace be upon them all}.
According to Qur'an people of book consist of believers and disbelievers.
Read this ;
"O people of the Scripture!: Why do you disbelieve in the verses [about Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him)] of Allaah, while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)". (Aala Imraan, 3:70) And this is also the will of God that Mohammad {Pbuh} be accepted as a Prophet.
"Say: O people of the Scripture! Why do you stop those who believe from the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses? And Allah is not unaware of what you do". ( 3:99)
The arabic word used for "disbelievers" is kafir.
Here are few ayahs, which help us determine that people of scriptures are disbelievers
Those who deny Prophethood of Prophet Mohammed PBUH are indeed kaafirs.
Read this..
5:72 (Picktall) They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said : O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evildoers there will be no helpers.
Thre Arabic word used for disbelieve is "kafara". If we go to the arabic version of Qur'an or transliteration , we shall find this word, in the ayah referred
Read this also
98:6 Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. (Picktall)
Here also the word used for disbelieve is kafara.
Specifically from the above ayah you can see that. Ahle kitaab and Mushrikeen as categorised as two groups. But their act of disbelieving Prophet(Bayyinah) is considered kufr.
Morever, Quran uses ahle-kitaab as category of kuffaar not as different state of faith.
The very first migrations were at Abyssinia. Prophet {pbuh} advised a group of muslims to migrate there andit was a christian king, who gave them the shelter.
Banu Nadir was a tribe of Jews, who were active against Prophet Muhammad {Pbuh}, but were expelled, This tribe later joined against Prophet [Pbuh} again, during the battle of Khyber, which was a battle against Jews.
Anyways, kindly expand your questions a bit. I just posted, whatever i understood out of them. I wish our other members too, to add up there knowledge here.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 10:13pm
when I remember/have an issue to discuss
there's one deep seated theological issue I have with Islam, outside of anything else (my distaste for legalism, concerns of historical authenticity, etc). The doctrine of original sin is deeply rooted in my worldview, and its truth is clearly evident every time I see the news, or have a conversation with someone. Without it, Christianity makes very little sense, with it though, it makes perfect sense, and while it does so I can not accept a claim to prophethood by someone who directly contradicts the fundamental Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God. Until someone can make a pretty convincing argument against that doctrine I don't see my belief in a changing.
thats what I thought. And it's based on that belief that I found a refusal to allow intermarriage inexplicable, especially since the it is allowed when the gender-roles are reversed.
I suppose they weren't questions such much as observations that added up to the frustration I feel over this issue. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 4:43am
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Its okay, thomas. Don't get frustrated. Just leave my post. InshaAllah, a brother, who has good knowledge, {BMZ} of both Islam and christianity, shall answer you, InshaAllah ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 7:05pm
Why do you call me good? Only God is good, seekshidayath!
 Just kidding. I feel humbled.I am very busy at some sites which are extremely hostile to Islam, Qur'aan, Prophet and Muslims. I am good with the good, bad with the bad and ugly with the uglies.
My apologies for writing less here.
Salaams
BMZ
------------- Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God." |
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 7:57pm
Hello, thomasd
I have split up your comment in short paras for easy reading. My apologies for that. I can write pages on the issues you have but because of time constraint, I have a few comments:
1. All the doctrines are post-Jesus thingies. Jesus did not himself teach any of those doctrines. You know that and we know that too.
2. Even with the doctrine of sin, Christianity still does not make any sense at all, because there is nothing from Jesus on it.
3. Christianity, itself, directly contradicts and violates the fundamental belief of the ancient Hebrews and the Jews, including Jesus that there is only One LORD Almighty God. Jesus was absolutely clear about the Shema as he himself declared it three times daily, as an obedient-to-God Jew.
Neither the Hebrews nor the Jews believed that God had a 'son' and the Jews still do not believe that Jesus is the son of God.
4. Pardon me but I have to say this and my apologies in advance, if it hurts:
The Bible teaches how to lament and self-loathe or makes one feel low in self-esteem. That is what I have concluded after studying it long.
Islam does away with all that. It removes the corroded link of Christianity in the chain, linking back mankind to the True LORD Almighty Allah (God in English), the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham and the God of Moses and Jesus.
The Law will remain there and Jesus also confirmed that not an iota was to be changed. We have to live with the Law of God and it is easy, since we live easily with the laws made by men also. Islam makes me feel good.
 Works and deeds are also very important and I am sure you know well that James had said,"faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
Islam makes it clear that no one shall carry any one's burdens and neither will a soul be subjected to carry another's burdens.
Hope this helped.
Cheers
BMZ
------------- Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 23 November 2008 at 10:01pm
my frustration was not with your post, the answers you gave were very informative, it is with the whole issue, and things that seem to me to be clear inconsistencies or non-reasons.
The doctrine that all humans are inherently sinful was taught by the Jews, and Jesus is the one who first taught that it is not only our actions that are sins, but our thoughts as well. Our very human nature.
if we are inherently flawed beings then it makes perfect sense that some sacrifice must be made in atonement for that flawed nature. This was part of Hebrew tradition dating back to before there were Hebrews. Even Abraham's son Isaac was very nearly offered as a sacrifice in prophecy of Jesus's (a descendant of Abraham) willing sacrifice for us.
of course he was an obedient Jew, he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. but like original sin, the doctrine of the triune God was present in the Jewish Zohar long before Christianity came along. It's *not* an import from pagan Greco-Roman tradition as a couple people have claimed.
a pretty significant number of them did, or we wouldn't have Christianity today. The Jewish leaders who turned the people against Jesus did so largely for political reasons, and to this day the single most influential person in the formalization of Christian doctrine after Jesus's death was an educated member of the Jewish aristrocracy. The Judaism of today is *not* the Judaism of 2000 years ago.
then you have been grievously misled in your studies. The Bible teaches that it doesn't matter what crime you have committed or how completely you have sinned against God, if you turn back to him and ask forgiveness he will grant it to you, because he loves you. To be loved by the most powerful being in the universe and to be made in his image is a special thing indeed.
equally, Paul said that we are saved not by works, but through God's grace that is extended to those who have faith. |
Posted By: Imani
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 11:31am
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thomas i think i can be of help to you.
what exactly are the questions you have on your mind.
Number your questions so that i can answer them one after the other.
------------- "But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7) peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 8:36pm
1. please offer your best reasoned rebuttal of the doctrine of original sin. 2. please offer a reasoned explanation for the difference in treatment of men and women in the rules related to intermarriage, it would be preferable if this was more in depth than just a quote from the Qur'an, and included explanation of the traditions and cultural norms associated with it. |
Posted By: Imani
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 2:04am
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Salam thomas.
The doctrine of original sin.
Yes, it is true that there is nothing like original sin in Islam.
Allah has made provisions and said in the Holy Qur'an that, nobody is going to carry the sins of another person. Everybody is going to be judged according to his deeds and actions in this world.
Adam and Eve were not angles, they were humans like you and me. the fact that Adam was created by ALLAH from clay[sand] and Eve from the ribs of Adam does not change this fact.
Thier way of creation by ALLAH was to show one of the unbelievable and miraculous ways of ALLAH just like how Jesus was created without a fahter.
In arabic words i would say KUMFA YAKUN meaning BE AND IT SHALL BE. This is how God is unique. HE only says be and it shall surely be in HIS own way that man can not understand.
So the fact that Adam and Eve were those who brought sin to the world does not automatically make all human race sinful.
Once a man came to Jesus and asked that, how can one gain salvation. Can you recollect in the bible what Jesus told the man for me?
And to your second question, please can you explain it futher to me the english is not quite clear for me to understand.
The commas are too much, can you put a full stop somewhere and start with another sentence in this question?
------------- "But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7) peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 27 November 2008 at 12:32pm
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Its unreasonable for all the decendants of Adam to share in what was HIS original sin. I did not sin. . . why should I be held responsible for something that Adam and Eve conciousley did? This concept goes against the concept of a just and fair God. Forget about Original Sin - the entire Biblical concept surrounding it doesnt make sense to me, and is offensive, for example the Biblical assertion that EVE was the one who tempted Adam - and how 'God' then cursed her with childbirth and labour pains and made her forever 'submissive' to man as her master. So right now, my menstrual cramps are inadvertently Eves fault?
Nauzubillah. ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 9:51am
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thomasd - The deep seated theological issue I have with Islam is that it denies the historical fact that Jesus was crucified!
I have studied the Quran for 4 years and I have come to a different interpretation of what the Quran is saying. It is has not come of my own power but through the Holy Spirit. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Imani
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 11:03am
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So right now, my menstral cramps are inadvertently Eves fault?
lol! this is ridiculous sis
Ask the question and ask it again and again.....
this is raelly unbelievable becaz the doctrine the christians have is really a headache. ------------- "But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7) peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 6:25pm
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So right now, my menstral cramps are inadvertently Eves fault?
And really, what if you are like me and don't have cramps?? lol
Hi ThomasD, Welcome back. I am sure your travels have been an eye-opener. When I first started to learn about Islam, and lived among Muslims I had a lot of culture shock! Intermarriage: I can see why this can be strange.. why one way and not the other. Islam values structure. Coming from a society where structure is often lacking and is often fluid it can be hard to relate to such a strong structure. Take for instance, elders. Elders are to obeyed. This is still true in many societies. You are not to argue or anger your parents. They are of a �higher� place in the functional society then their children and grandchildren. So for instance, in many families whereas the son may make the money, the mom, rules the house. To get angry or be disobedient to the mother is really bad in Islam. Being kind to one�s parents is a must. So in the household the husband makes the final decision. The main reason is that he often is the breadwinner and is expected to do so. Funny, in Islam, men have it tough. We can say they have it easy, but I as a Muslim woman is NOT required to work. Not even in the home if I do not agree. Most women of course �work� in come capacity. But I am not required to. Men must work to provide for all females in their families. Take for instance my good friend, he works and supports, not only his wife and children, his brother�s wife and kids (he does not make much money), his mother, his sister, pay for family things like weddings� not sure who has it easier.. lol So as the one responsible he is considered head of the family in that sense. Only a fool never consults or listens but in the end the decision is his. And as the father, it is his responsibility to educate the child in Islam. If he is nonMuslim he will have a difficult time doing so. Good to see you back! Hayfa ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 05 December 2008 at 6:22pm
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Thomas, i do not possess much knowledge {deeper} of the questions you posed. I wished Br. BMZ, look after it. Perhaps he's very busy. Am sure, he shall answer you, once when he's free. Hope sis Hyafa's post would also help you to understand. I was reading of "The Doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin", so thought to share it with you.
Doctrine of Atonement accepted by the church three to four centuries after Jesus left the earth. It contradicts the Bible itself as the following passage show : "{Deut 24 :16} : "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers : every man shall be put to death for his own sin. " {Jeremiah 31 : 30} : "But everyone shall die for his own iniquity" {Ezekiel 18:20} : " The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son : the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him". So Adam and Eve were responsible for their own sin, which had also been forgiven by Allah according to the Islamic version Read what Jesus himself said in Mathew 7: 1 and 2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again". I Corinthinians 3 : 8 "Now he that planeth and he that watereth are one, and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". But we believe in Original Sin ! There is still an another verse that shall prove that children are born without sin. Mathew - 19:14 So everybody is born without sin and all children belong to the kingdom of heaven. Hope this may help you to understand ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 05 December 2008 at 10:03pm
Jesus is absolutely central to Christianity, but if you believe that you can be saved through works, then the idea that Jesus came so we can all be saved is certainly ridiculous. But since I do not believe we can be saved through works, only through our faith, Jesus is essential. Hayfa: your points are well raised :) growing up in a Christian (when I say Christian, I of course mean that we had an active faith, and not the stereotype of an American "christian" who goes to church only on Christmas + Easter, and says grace for dinner when they remember to) household, we had a very structured family as well, however in our family, mom and dad were equals in everything, never one having authority over the other, and learning about God (bible-reading, prayer, often singing) was, and is, a family event. after EVERY dinner. Never the responsibility of a single parent. seekshidayath: thank you once again for your well thought out response :) with the exception of the verses from Corinthians, and Matthew, the verses you quoted were from the old testament. At the time the Jews were living under the old covenant with God. And yes, it says that no man should pay the price for another's sin. But that covenant still required that a guilt offering be made as atonement for one's sin, and that offering was a completely innocent life, that of a lamb, or (if I remember correctly), a dove. We believe that Jesus was the completely innocent life who paid the guilt offering for anyone who accepts it as his gift. Children when they are born have committed no act of sin, yet they still carry the Sinful human nature with which we all carry. Though most Christians believe children who die before they become Christian's will be held innocent if they have not been given the chance to either accept or deny a relationship with God, or even understand what that entails, this is a subject which is still debated. my point is that WE CAN NOT achieve the necessary standard of perfection to be worthy of spending an eternity with him. Take the chance to really examine yourself, your thoughts, your actions. The truth of what I'm saying should be obvious right there. It is only through tremendous grace that any one of us can be saved. |
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 5:07pm
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It is interesting if one believes that Jesus was/is God and he will return. So in fact then what one is saying is that "God" will return on earth. Which can seem odd to anyone who believes that God is All Knowing, All Seeing. Muslims believe that Jesus was will return. But not as "God." Gods has no reason to "return", for God does not "leave." The implications are rather interesting. Have you read the 99 Names of Allah. There are more. None are more important than others. But having read and worked to memorize them in order to reflect.. they demonstrate how beyond us Allah/God is. Each of us is a speck of dust in the cosmos. God would have no purpose to return to something. Most Muslim families work together. But there is a definite structure. But ultimately someone may have to make the tough, final decision. Also, another aspect, I forgot to mention is that peace in the home and so yes, often someone must "give in" in an argument and to bring things to a close. Any good leader listens to people. A husband who does not listen to his wife is really, at times, a fool. It is like any good leader of a "team" knows how to involve people and make their views heard. And yes, women are asked to "give in" ultimately. It is interesting to me because this can come down to physiology. Men are more competitive. Men actually, often have fragile egos. Yes it is hidden. They are not different than women. Men often need to feel �strong.� I know a woman who is married and they have two kids. And having watched their dynamic, women no longer know what they want in a man. They want to be in charge, yet they want the guy to be �manly� and take charge� and many marriages fail over the petty stuff, like the color of the paint on the living room walls! st**id stuff. And yes, becoming a Muslim and thinking of being �obedient� to a guy was a bit weird.. probably cause we are raised to be independent now. But really, I don�t argue much anyways.. so who cares about the petty stuff.. Both partners will yield ultimately. But how each does it may be different. ------------- When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi |
Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 December 2008 at 11:24am
wow... thats true! ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 08 December 2008 at 9:23pm
we believe that Jesus is God's human incarnation and that he was both fully God (to clarify I only capitalize God when I'm referring to The God) and fully human. i know this seems like a contradiction, but it makes a lot of sense after having studied quantum mechanics and particle duality---the idea that a single particle can be both a wave and a particle.
I have indeed, though I haven't memorized them, I was struck by the similarities (and a few differences) to the names we use for God.
each of us is his creation, and that is a marvelous thing indeed.
I completely agree, and she and I have already made it clear to each other that if the relationship does continue, we will both have to be willing to compromise.
it seems to me that people whose marriages fail over stuff like that weren't ready to be married in the first place
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Posted By: Hunter
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 11:11pm
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Hi everyone. I thought I'd wade into this discussion and offer my own personal experience in the hope that it might be helpful. My wife and I have different religious beliefs although it didn't start out that way. She's a Christian and the irony here is that she's at least partially responsible for my finding Islam. Most of my life I'd been told I wasn't a "good Christian". She was the first person who ever pointed out that in fact I wasn't a Christian at all according to my beliefs. I was reading a lot about Islam around this same time, and after reading the Holy Quran for the first time it occurred to me what in fact I was. Here's the point I'm getting to: I discovered Islam after I had already been married. In no way do I regret marrying her; she's a wonderful, loving, supportive woman, and apart from the fact that she's a diehard Vikings fan, perfect in every way. But, and here's the but: I'm finding that it's very lonely to be alone in my faith. I'm just beginning to discover a wonderful religion, one that actually inspires me and makes sence to me, but I'm alone in the journey-- she can't join me. She isn't interested in Islam and I've never been able to reconcile myself to Christianity. This and the fact that there isn't exactely a big Muslim population here in southern Vermont is what led me to this forum in the first place. Just something to think about. Respectfully-- Hunter
------------- "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"-- DrDre |
Posted By: Imani
Date Posted: 11 December 2008 at 4:16am
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each of us is his creation, and that is a marvelous thing indeed.
God is not just his but His. please mind your writings thomas.
------------- "But those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of all creatures."(surah98:7) peace for all peace for the nation. To Allah indeed we are to return. SALAM |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 12 December 2008 at 11:23pm
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Thomas said :
"And yes, it says that no man should pay the price for another's sin. But that covenant still required that a guilt offering be made as atonement for one's sin, and that offering was a completely innocent life, that of a lamb, or (if I remember correctly), a dove. We believe that Jesus was the completely innocent life who paid the guilt offering for anyone who accepts it as his gift".
Thomas, we need not have to offer sacrifices when we commit a sin. What we muslims believe in is "Sincere repentance from God". While repenting we see that we do not repeat this sin again. Infact God loves the person who repents. We all do commit sins. But what is important is we repent not that we sacrifice life of else for . By the way, can u kindly share me any verse of sin, which explains us that the doctrine of sin in christianity or is only the concept amongst christians ?
U said
my point is that WE CAN NOT achieve the necessary standard of perfection to be worthy of spending an eternity with him. Take the chance to really examine yourself, your thoughts, your actions. The truth of what I'm saying should be obvious right there. It is only through tremendous grace that any one of us can be saved.
I agree with you here, thomas. We cannot achieve perfection at all. Even the Quran says that by the Mercy of the Almighty and by His Grace Here is that ayah {verse} of the Qura'n
"And had it not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you, not one of you would ever have been pure from sins"
Which means, if He did not help whomever He wills to repent and come back to Him and be purified from Shirk {asscociating partners with God}, evil and sin, and whatever bad characteristics each person has according to his nature, no one would ever attain purity and goodness. As you said, likewise, its there in that ayah that grace of the Alimighty that we are saved.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 5:18am
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Assalamu alaikum. Hunter posted: she can't join me. She isn't interested in Islam and I've never been able to reconcile myself to Christianity. This and the fact that there isn't exactely a big Muslim population here in southern Vermont is what led me to this forum in the first place. Just something to think about. Respectfully-- Hunter Response: Please do not mind. I have friends married to the Muslims following the previous Messages, and there are alot of them where I was working. My approach is to discuss on the contents of the Bible and show them the similarity with what is revealed in the Qur'an. No need to blame her of not understanding you and be hard on her that she must understand. It is a trial on you. You must be patient for the Quraysh in whose mother tongue the Qur'an was revealed did not accept the Message immediately. During the conquest of Makka, the holy Prophet told his uncle to contemplate on what he brought for upto a period of 6 months, while Umar bin Khattab and Ali bin Abi Talib wanted him to there and then to accept the Message. Let her join the forum. It is a mistake we inherited calling one a Christian or a non-believer. According to the Qur'an and the teaching of Muhammad, one becomes an unbeliever only after accepting and understanding his Message and then turns away from it. The most serious isssue is for one to worship Allah not according to the way done by Muhammad Rasulullah. But we kept quite on this very important issue, hiding it in quest of uniting the Muslim Umma. Please do your best to learn the Arabic language and get the Books with explanations (commentary) describing the Sunna of the holy Prophet. Try as much as possible not to involve yourself in Sectarian worship. Do not quote anyone as an authority except Muhammad Rasulullah. But you can quote somone if your views agreed with his views. Friendship. |
Posted By: Hunter
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 4:42pm
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Hi Friendship. Assaiamu alaikum Good advice, and you brought up a couple of points that wouldn't have occurred to me. There is much common ground between Christianity and Islam, and focusing on the similarities rather than the differences puts a more positive spin on it. It also wouldn't have occurred to me to invite her to join me in this forum. I'll take your advice and ask, but I can't promise she'll want to. After all, God or Allah gave us free will. Again, thank you for your thoughtful advice. Respectfully-- Hunter
------------- "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything"-- DrDre |
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 6:48pm
you are right of course :) modern english is a bit of a sloppy language, we've lost most of the beauty of old norse, and gained none of the technicality of Latin. I'm usually pretty good about capitalizing God when I'm referring to him by name, but I slip on the pronouns sometimes (since pronouns aren't usually capitalized like proper nouns).
hey! another Vermonter :) anyway....it seems this relationship has come to end. I suppose most of you will be proud of her for making the "right choice." I'm unbelievably devastated right now. |