Islam for non-Muslims - believer/ nonbeliever

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believer/ nonbeliever

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Topic: believer/ nonbeliever

Posted By: believer
Subject: believer/ nonbeliever
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:07am

Why does a person have to believe in Mohammad to be considered a believer? Believing in GOD is not enough?

This small request makes Mohammad a partner with Allah. You can believe in GOD but it doesn't count because one doesn't belive in Mohammad.

Way too much power is being given to Mohammad.

I am a believer but I am not a Muslim, not a nonbeliever!

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Replies:

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 3:26am

Believer,

That is an intersting question. If all lands received a Prophet, say, I think 124,000 of them or so, no one has heard of all of them.

I would say that there are different Prophet's sent to different. Lands. And that the basic concept of God / Allah was sent. But that we don't deny the Prophets. How much of most was altered to suit man's ego?

I don't believe that Mohammed is a partner in any regard. But he is one of the Prohpets. And the one that we have the most recent and comprehensive information about. So thus is a better role model.

Its like take Jesus. He was Jewish. He followed the rules and laws of Judaism. And yet people have eliminated that as part of their lives. Its like structure and having a holistic and complete way of living is not necessary. He like Prohpet Mohammed (PBUH) was deeply, intensely spiritual and religious. How could he not be... so the goal would be to follow him, but much of his daily actions were lost or changed.

And its like say there are man Prophets. Could Buddha be one? quite possibly, and we won't know. As much has been changed and people worship Buddha. (Which he did not advocate.)

When I was first learning about Islam, it was actualy harder to take it all in as we do have so much information about Mohammed (PBUH). So it takes more work and effort to understand. There is more to analyze and critic (yes the mind works that way.) And less of the "just feel good" aspects.

ok I'll stop..

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 6:23am

Well said by hayfa. Very good. But there is more to it for the believer. I will just try to explain if it could be useful.

We have a Kalimah as follows:

" There is no god except Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah."

We also say, "Muhammad is His servant and messenger".

That rules out any godhead or worship of Muhammad. But the name of Muhammad in our Kalimah is very important. We believe that there is no god except Allah, the One God. That settles the mainline of faith, the Unitarian faith in complete comparison to the pagan faiths.

In as much as we believe there is only One God, we also believe that Muhammad is the messenger of God. We believe in his message that he has delivered to us. WE will not believe in any one else even if he gave the message about God and the prophets. If some one came along and tried to teach us a good message and tried to lead us to a better way, we will not believe in him. That is why the name of Muhammad is included in the Kalimah.

The name of Muhammad is attached to the Kalimah for ever. No one can separate the name of Muhammad from the name of Allah now, however he may try. It is permanenty attached to the name of Allah and shows us the path to guidance. If some one came to us, flying with wings and told us or led us to any teaching other than Quran and Sunnah, we will not believe him.

But whoever brings the same teachings as propagated by Muhammad, we will believe and may follow that person. I am sorry, I have to write something which may not be a happy thing for the christians. It is only meant as an example to clear this same matter and to explain it further. It is not meant to downplay the christians at all.

It is noted that the christians had lost the message because they listened to (and made Lords) from amongst the disciples of Jesus. They did not see what the disciples were teaching. Whether it was the same as Jesus taught them or it was something different. They did not try to be strict about that. So they lost the real message of Jesus. Every big man came along and taught few things which were contrary to the real teachings of Jesus. So the actual message was lost. The Quran is reporting these things. That no one should take other Lords besides Allah.

Our Prophet Muhammad is the Seal of all prophets. The truth of all prophets is proved by our Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. WE do not mind if the christians also kept to the name of Jesus only. As an example, I can say that Hazrat Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman and Ali had been close friends of our prophet Muhammad. But if any one of them tried to teach us something contrary to the teachings of Muhammad, we will not believe them,,, We will not accept them.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 10:09am

I believe that many of the Jews had stopped following the laws or had twisted them a bit before Jesus came.

minuteman-Can you show where and how the Christians made Lords of the desciples? Unless of course you are talking about the Catholic church then I can understand what you mean.

Muslims need to put the thought that We do not have the complete Gospel of Jesus to rest!! Remember the Quran verifies that we have the Gospel- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

005.047

YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

Think if we do not then Allah has failed to guard over it!!!

005.048

YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 5:56pm

believer,

we have talked on some of these issues before in other threads, but no problem revisiting them.

You asked: "Why does a person have to believe in Mohammad to be considered a believer? Believing in GOD is not enough?"

It is important to remember that we believe in a lot of things, the point is to believe as what?

For example:

- to believe in God as your maker, and the Only Creator. - to believe in revelations sent by God in different

times to various prophets.

- to believe in the prophets of God such as Prophet

Mohammed (pbuh) for our era is to acknowledge that

the message of worship to One God in its purity

reached to us through him.

Thus the acknowledgement is, that he was a servant and a messanger of God, a man, a guide for mankind, nothing less and nothing more than that. We don't worship him, don't regard him as a saint, nor we make him a Lord or a god, as God through him has told us that if any do so, will do wrong.

Furhter you wrote: "Muslims need to put the thought that We do not have the complete Gospel of Jesus to rest!! Remember the Quran verifies that we have the Gospel- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John."

Quran does not mentions Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and JOhn as you quoted. However, it does tell us the Gospel was given to Jesus, a messanger of God. In fact Quran mentions many prophets who were given message from God for their times.

Quran says that what was sent through Jesus(pbuh) was lost, thus leaving humanity without pure guidance, that's when God sent the Quran through Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), as a guiding light. Acknowledging him as our teacher is no different than acknowledging your school teacher without whom the classroom is incomplete. No teacher, no class, no lesson, no learning, no progress, no achievement, no graduation, simple as that. I am not a scholar, one don't need to be in order to understand the role of a teacher.

And we must also remember to give the respect that a teacher deserves, and not to raise him to other levels where he does not belong.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 5:47am

Where in the Quran does it say the message was lost?

So you are saying that Allah failed to guard the Gospel, his Holy WORD?!?

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 3:39pm

Isaiah 40

6 A voice says, "Cry out."
       And I said, "What shall I cry?"
       "All men are like grass,
       and all their glory is like the flowers of the field.

7 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
because the breath of the LORD blows on them.
Surely the people are grass.

8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God stands forever."

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 2:42pm

Well it can be said Believer that Allah sent the word to many places. So Allah gave to people and in their arrogance and ego, altered it. And thus we have the Quran.. Allah did not fail, we people failed.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 10:39pm

ill discuss this in context of whether u r a
nonbeliever or a kafir, since u are not a Muslim so accord to my faith u don't qualify as a believer;

so it depends upon whats inside ur heart that ofcourse only God knows.
if u, in ur heart know that Hazrat (pbuh) was a true massenger of GOD but yet u deny it intentionally then ofcourse u for me are a Kafir.

but if there are some doubts in ur heart due lack of info or some other true reasons, and there is no dishonesty on ur part, then i do believe u are a nonbeliever (who i believe will also go to heaven)and not a kafir.

what we study is that before GOd decided to send his prophet, the state of humans was in very bad state. they did every bad thing that couldve possibly be done, so inorder to get them back on track. GOD decided to send his prophets. so the purpose of prophets was to give the mankind the proper right guidance and get them out of dark into light.

so if someone without believing in prophet in the manner as i above stated follows all his believing and lives a very pure life and does all that what prophets taught us but doesnt honestly believe due lack of info about the truthness of the prophet, how can such a person be a kafir, (he isnt intentionally rejecting the prophet neither he is doing any sinful acts). and remember the purpose of prophet is being fulfilled.

but unfortunately todays socalled Muslims islam has just been limited to the acceptance or rejection of the prophet rather than being the followance of prophet which is the major thing. if some one accepts PBUH he'll go to heaven and if someone rejects he'll go to hell, the story ends here for them.

Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 12:18am

and as to ur saying that isnt believing in GOD enough. i would say that its the GOD who send all these prophets and therefore its his order to accept all the the prophets unless u are not honestly sure about the truthness of anyone of them (otherwise why would he send them, its not that difficult to understand) and

so if u believe in GOD, u have to believe in all prophets he send and if u reject even one them means that u are rejecting GODs words/orders and hence the GOD so even if one accepts God but reject any of his prophets intentionally (knowing in heart that he a true massenger of GOD)then i do think ur acceptance of God are just words and nothing from the inside.

it simple when u believe in God, u believe in everything he says and follow his orders otherwise acceptance/believing are mere words.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 6:24am

Hayfa - Consider that no man is better then another- then it is very likely that the people in charge of the Quran have also failed.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60012&FID=7 - H3OO - What if you know that the prophet was from GOD but his message has been distorted because of wrong translations and purposely destroyed variations of writings? What if the message is opposite from what history has told us.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 7:17am

Momin: A believer. Who believes :

In Allah.

In all the angels of God (Allah).

In all the books of God (Allah)

In all the messengers of Allah.

In the accountability of last day...

Muslim: The one who believes:

In all of the above. That means he must be a Momin.

In prayer 5 times a dayn (Salaat)

In paying poor tax. (Zakaat)

In fasting during month of Ramadhan.

In Hajj, at least once in life, if situation allows.

A Muslim is a practicing active Momin.

Munafiq: The one who believes:

In some of the above and declares that he is a momin,

But he does not really believe in Islam. He is an enemy sitting within Muslims. He is not an open enemy but works undercover most of the time.

Kafir: The one who does not believe in Islam. He denies Islam, rejects islam, opposes Islam. He is an enemy who is outside the fold of Islam. He opposes Islam with money and Might. He says that islam is a false religion. He is not a peaceful person.

He is not a simple peaceful disbeliever. He is an active hostile disbeliever. He is the one whom the message of Islam has been given in a good way with love. But he rejects the message and gets ready to oppose the message. He does not allow the message of Islam to be propagated.

That seems to be a Kaafir. But please follow your own rules by the study of the Quran.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 8:09am

Good answers, I agree. Specially the one from H3OO digs deeper.

Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 10:30am

[QUOTE=minuteman]

Momin: A believer. Who believes :

In Allah.

In all the angels of God (Allah).

In all the books of God (Allah)

In all the messengers of Allah.

In the accountability of last day...

[QUOTE]

well in my opinion
i do believe that a nonbeliever can be a momin too.
for me a momin is the one who performs good deeds which has not much to do with acceptance of prophethood or might do but to a little extent which i'll discuss later

performance of good deeds has got to do more with followance of prophethood and not their acceptance (people accept their prophets but dont follow them). and by followance i mean live ur life the way prophets taught us.

like
to be honest
not to earn through illegal/haram means
respect ur parents and other elders
treat ur younger ones with good manners
help others specially the poor
abstain from adultery/ alcohol/ womanizing & other such crimes
not to steal or harm/deceive others
respect others faith
dont create mischief on earth
ofocourse this list goes on but these are the ones that we encounter in our daily lives

now to be a good person what more is required, if anyone can tell, im sure not much.

and i also dont believe that there will be any person in this world that does all the above good things and also reject any prophet intentionally (he in his heart know that they are right/true but still deliberately reject them). i really dont believe.

but there are many (im sure) who might be a lot better in the above
mentioned things as compared to muslims but might not be the believer of Hazrat Muhammed (pbuh)

but rejection of prophet (pbuh) might not be intentional/delibrate. as i stated before they honestly might know the truth ness of prophet(pbuh) due to lack of info or some other true reasons and ofcourse GOD
knows what is in their hearts.

so accord to this last statement one can say disbeliever (who is disbeliever in the way i described above) can be a momin too.

and ofcourse if a disbeliever intentionally denys prophethood of Hazrat Muhammed(pbuh) then he is kafir

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 9:43pm

myahya wrote:

Good answers, I agree. Specially the one from H3OO digs deeper.

Yes, I agree with you about H300. I am sorry, I could not reply tp one of your earlier posts. I will do soon, Insha Allah.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 11:29pm

believer wrote:

Hayfa - Consider that no man is better then another- then it is very likely that the people in charge of the Quran have also failed.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60012&FID=7 - ) then rest goes out of the equation.thats most important and also the most difficult thing to know that whether a prophet is true or not and once u get to know this fact that a prophet is a true one, then u surely would know an other thing too that he can never say a wrong thing bcz what he says is what GOD says.

and we all know GOD has given human the ability to think and to think logically, ability to observe, to find solutions. all this advancement that we see today wouldnt be possible had we got no brains, its such a powerful thing and so when the major obstacle (of knowing the truthness pf prophet) has been cleared, the passage of knowing the true message of prophet should not be that difficult.

GOD has himself said that he'll never do anything which is against human logic. so think logically and u'll never find anything in prophets messages that is against logic that our brains does not approve of.

and thats why more and more people are starting to reject that jesus (as) was taken to the skies which is totally against ones logic. surley humans cant fly. so people have started to think logically atlast.

i hope i got ur question right and its just my opinion in the end.

but i'll like to add 1 more thing that if u by ur question mean that due to distortion of the prophets messages, ur not sure about the truthness of the prophet then i have answered this already in my other 2 posts in this thread

Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 13 July 2008 at 11:35pm

Salam/Peace

Based on the hadith below the definition of believer (in Islam) is: "to believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the meeting with Him, and to believe in the Resurrection."

Based on the hadith, to be "perfect believer" we have to do "Iman (in your heart)"; "Islam (in your action)" and "Ihsan (perfection/ultimate goal on how we worship (obeying/doing Allah/God's commands)) ".

==========

[[From Bukhari]] 6.300: Narrated Abu Huraira: One day while Allah's Apostle was sitting with the people, a man came to him walking and said, "O Allah's Apostle. What is Belief (Iman)?" The Prophet said, "Belief is to believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the meeting with Him, and to believe in the Resurrection." The man asked, "O Allah's Apostle What is Islam?" The Prophet replied, "Islam is to worship Allah and not worship anything besides Him, to offer prayers perfectly, to pay the (compulsory) charity i.e. Zakat and to fast the month of Ramadan." The man again asked, "O Allah's Apostle What is Ihsan (i.e. perfection or Benevolence)?" The Prophet said, "Ihsan is to worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you do not achieve this state of devotion, then (take it for granted that) Allah sees you." The man further asked, "O Allah's Apostle When will the Hour be established?" The Prophet replied, "The one who is asked about it does not know more than the questioner does, but I will describe to you its portents. When the lady slave gives birth to her mistress, that will be of its portents; when the bare-footed naked people become the chiefs of the people, that will be of its portents. The Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah. Verily, the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs." (31.34) Then the man left. The Prophet said, "Call him back to me." They went to call him back but could not see him. The Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." (See Hadith No. 47 Vol 1) [[

[[From Muslim]] @Book 1, Number 0004: Abu Huraira reported: One day the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appeared before the public that a man came to him and said: Prophet of Allah, (tell me) what is Iman. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you affirm your faith in Allah, His angels, His Books, His meeting, His Messengers and that you affirm your faith in the Resurrection hereafter. He (again) said: Messenger of Allah, (tell me) what does al-Islam signify. He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Al- Islam signifies that you worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him and you establish obligatory prayer and you pay the obligatory poor-rate (Zakat) and you observe the fast of Ramadan. He (the inquirer) again said: Messenger of Allah, what does al-Ihsan imply? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: That you worship Allah as if you are seeing Him, and in case you fail to see Him, then observe prayer (with this idea in your mind) that (at least) He is seeing you. He (the inquirer ) again said: Messenger of Allah, when would there be the hour (of Doom)? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: The one who is asked about it is no better informed than the inquirer. I, however, narrate some of its signs (and these are): when the slave-girl will give birth to he master, when the naked, barefooted would become the chiefs of the people - these are some of the signs of (Doom). (Moreover) when the shepherds of the black (camels) would exult themselves in buildings, this is one of the signs of (Doom). (Doom) is one of the five (happenings wrapped in the unseen) which no one knows but Allah. Then he (the Messenger of Allah) recited (the verse):" Verily Allah! with Him alone is the knowledge of the hour and He it is Who sends (down the rain) and knows that which is in the wombs and no person knows whatsoever he shall earn tomorrow, and a person knows not in whatsoever land he shall die. Verily Allah is Knowing, Aware. He (the narrator, Abu Huraira) said: Then the person turned back and went away. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Bring that man back to me. They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet present there) went to bring him back, but they saw nothing there. Upon this the Messenger of Allah remarked: he was Gabriel, who came to teach the people their religion. [[

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Salam/Peace,

Semar

"We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH)

"1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"

Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 7:20pm

As'Salamu Alaikum,

H300, hope you keep contributing here, by sharing with us your knowledge, It was nice reading you. Your posts are good but they shall be the best and more effective when are supported by ayah from the Quran and sunnah. Hope you shall also add up the verses if needed , and support your opinions.

Regarding this sentnce of yours, i contradict a bit,

" and i also dont believe that there will be any person in this world that does all the above good things and also reject any prophet intentionally (he in his heart know that they are right/true but still deliberately reject them). i really dont believe."

I know such persons personally, who do such good things and also reject Prophet deliberately. But to cite an example toyou, what do you say about., Prophet 's uncle - Abu Talib. He knew very well that his nephew was a chosen messenger _-----,

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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 10:13pm

To Seeks first:

Abu Talib was a good man. He could not recite the Kalimah because there was too much persecution of the Momineen and they were migrating. He was not sure of the ultimate result of the struggle. Moreover, he had clos elonks with the polytheists. When Abu Talib was about to die, the Prophet came to him and requested that uncle should become a believer even by reciting the Kalimah in the ear of the prophet.

But Abu Jehl was sitting there close to Abu Talib. And Abu Talib could not utter a word of belief. Too bad and so sad.

Now about H300:

Please understand that what you have written is very good. It needs to be modified slightly. Belief is different to deeds. Belief is sort of intention. Belief and deeds are two different things and they are mentioned separately alongside one another. It is mentioned in Quran (2:82) And those who believed and performed befitting deeds they are the companions (dwellers) of paradise. They will live therein for a very long time.

In the above verse, the belief is mentioned separate from the deeds. Of course, any one who claims to be a believer but does not do any good thing, his belief is false. It may be likened to a tree which was planted but never watered until it was dried up and became dead.

By doing good deeds, a believers puts a stamp on his beliefs.

Semar has rightly explained the Eeman (belief) that is to accept that there is no God but Allah, and to believe in all His angels and all his book and all his messengers... That is belief. that is the beginning. By that a person comes into the fold of Islam. Then he has to prove his belief by performing certain obligatory prayers. He/she has to act on the teachings of the Quran and the way the prophet explained them practically (Sunnah).

All the above was for H300 (continued). We have been told that there are six basis of eeman. There are five pillars of Islam. Momin is a mere believer. He admits certain truth. Then his journey begins to the right path. Please remember that it is necessary to be a believer (Momin) in order to be a Muslim. And to be a believer is not anything minor or easy. It requires a lot of effort to accept the truth.

Any christian or Jew could also be a believer in God in his own way. He may still be a polytheist. But then his belief will not be useful to him. I feel that only an atheist would be a non-believer. Our present day meaning of the believer (Momin) is the one who believes in the prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. That is a must.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: H3OO
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 11:04pm

minute man u are totally right and i dont think i have taken belief and deeds as one thing either. and thats why i clearly said that that to be a momin it is not necessary to be a believer (not being a believer in the sense i stated before) and similarly it is not necessary that if one is a believer, he is a momin too which shows that it has more got to do with followance of the good deeds that prophets of God placed before us (some of which i stated in my prev post) rather than just being mere believer (that is having believe in prophet pbuh), and so a nonbeliever can be a momin too if he performs good deeds. so it clearly shows beliefs and deeds being two different things.

since we all are Muslims, hence believers, so we are pretty much clear (which u have further cleared in ur post) about things regarding them but the major problem exists regarding a nonbeliever, about what will their faith be. ofcourse most of the muslims openly state all of them kafirs and that they'll all go to hell which i dont
agree with so thats why i wanted to state my opinion regarding them and that they can be a momin too who will go to heaven as well.

so my post was written keeping a nonbeliever n view.

and as regard a believer

i have mentioned in my previous post on page 1 of this thread (in a reply to believer) that since he doesnt believe in Prophet (pbuh) so for me he isnt a believer and so its clear that to be a believer u have to be a believer in prophet [pbuh] and ofcourse also in all the other prophets of God, their books and all angels of God too as u stated, hence a muslim. so my def of believer clear too.

i hope i got the meaning of ur post right and am able to clear my point of view.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 2:51pm

Yes minuteman - By doing good deeds, a believers puts a stamp on his beliefs.

Remember Jews and Christians are not polytheists. We have a different perception of what the One True GOD is.

Faith without deeds is dead.

Everyone can see the difference between the Old and New Testaments. I think Mohammad started out trying to be close to GOD. Have you noticed the differance between the Mecca and Medina verses?

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 3:22pm

Salam/Peace

Mecca verses of the Quran that revealed during early birth of Islam mostly talked about aqeedah (faith, the concept of God). Because during this period Allah/God wanted to correct the polytheist concept that adopted by the Arabs, worshiping idols etc. The monotheist foundation was being built on this period.

Medina verses of the Quran that revealed on the later stage of his prophecy mostly talked about muamalah (deed, how to deal with other human being such as family, community etc). During this period the concept of monotheism had been accepted and the foundation of faith already strong enough so the verses that revealed on that period were addressed to take care social and community matters.

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Salam/Peace,

Semar

"We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH)

"1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 6:57pm

Believer, you are tying the Jewish faith with the church faith. Both are different, miles apart. A good reply is given above by Semar. I may add a few lines for your information. Our prophet was acting as Jesus in Makkah and as Moses in Madinah. Thus representing the good works of both those prophets. See below:

Our prophet (you have questioned his teachings) had two names, Ahmad and Muhammad. Ahmad means "The one who praises Allah maximum". It is also having love and beauty and peacefulness. The name Muhammad means "The one whom Allah praises most of all". Muhammad means the praised one. It is the Jalaali name of our prophet.

The name Ahmad is a name having beauty and love and gentleness. It is called a Jamaali name. The name Muhammad means the praised one. That name carries power and authority and glory.

Our prophet was a good example of Jesus and Moses a.s. While in Makkah, the prophet was acting according to his name Ahmad. That was more like the works of Jesus. The prophet was in similar circumstances as was Jesus in Kana'an. There was much opposition and persecution of the believers. So the prophet acted on the same principles of non-retaliation in Makkah as Jesus was doing in his time.

The prophet was being guided by Allah all the time and he was spreading the message with love and kindness. (Add to that what is written above by semar).

The other example of our prophet is that of Moses a.s. Because it is clearly written in the Quran that our prophet is the same type of messenger as was sent to pharoah ( that means Moses a.s.). So the other role our prophet had was that of the like of Moses a.s. That role was manifested in madinah where the prophet was acting in the name of Muhammad. That was with glory and power, the like of Moses a.s.

So there is no mistake any where. Both your prophets (Moses and Jesus) are present in the life of our prophet. Can you please understand. He completed the work of both of your prophets. That is gentleness and glory (power). The role of Moses was was one sided. That was a kind of harsh role. No gentleness.

The role of Jesus was complete gentleness and love. No harsh deed. (that is one sided too). Both the roles were incomplete. Our prophet represented the true pattern of life to the mankind, i.e. the true natural path for the mankind along with the highest degree of spiritualism which could lead mankind to be close to God in this world and the hereafter.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 5:02pm

believer wrote:

Where in the Quran does it say the message was lost?

So you are saying that Allah failed to guard the Gospel, his Holy WORD?!?

believer,

sorry I have been away for a while, but here I am.

I think as a group you are not very well coordinated or if you are a single person you have very short memory like myself, but I remember I have answered your very same question from the Quran last time, may be no more than a month ago.

But anyway here is the answer and the quotes from the Final Testament, The Holy Quran again, regarding changing of the Law, and the Gospel (now known as the Bible) by their followers:

Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them...........

14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.

As far as your rhetoric that why God could not guard his word, I will say, for God nothing is impossible, but if that would have been God's plan surely we would have Adam as the first and the final messanger and one Word of guidance since then. And there would have been no other prophets and books sent after Adam. No need would have been for Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus or Mohammed (pbut).

Only in the Quran, God mentions that He will guard it (the Quran) till the End. Also Quran is the Final Testament God has sent to mankind for guidance.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 18 July 2008 at 11:51pm

Very True. The message of Jesus was only for the Israelis and not for the whole world for all times. The Jews, under slavery of the Egyptians had become hard hearted. So they were given a hard law which they violated and did not apply with sincerity (and wisdom). There was too much strictness on the outer words without understanding the inner significance.

So came Jesus with the proper understanding of the Torah with some love and compassion, to work within the same law of Torah. he had come to relieve the Jews from their false practices and from their subjugation of the Romans. But the people in Kana'an, under the misguided Jewish clergy were so far off the real mark that they opposed the man of God (Jesus) and got ready to kill him.

The message of Jesus was only for the Jews and for the time only. It was not required to be forever. There is enough evidence in the bible that Jesus teaching was only for the Jews. There is 100% proof in the Quran that Jesus teaching was only for the children of Jacob (Israel). So, it was not required to be preserved. God did not fail to protect it. It happened according to the plan of Allah.

But when came the quran, it is final and last testament, a message from Allah. It should not be lost. So Allah took care for it and told in the Quran itself that He had revealed that knowledge (Quran) and that he was its guardian. We are not saying it. Allah said it Himself in the final testament and we believe that the teachings of the Quran are forever.

The Jews and christians are believers and they are our beloved brethren.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 2:04pm

minuteman - By saying Remember Jews and Christians are not polytheists. We have a different perception of what the One True GOD is. I am not trying to combine Jews and Christians into one faith.

One must not compare Jesus with Mohammad, but with the Quran. Is one Allah's inanimate word for man, for we know the other is GOD's Living Word for man.

honeto -

Psalm 12

6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

The message of Jesus was to correct all the false practices of the Jews and THEN with His death fulfill the law so that all Gentile would be able to be grafted onto the vine of the Jews.

There was no way to change the words of the Holy Scripture for there were too many copies floating around. This for sure is talking about the deeds of the Christians.

Don't Muslims say that Allah does not abrogate scruipture?

Which verses were written first?

One could say that the Old testament is for just the Jews, but you can not say that about the New Testament.

The proof is not strong enough to present the Quran as GOD's Word.

I do believe it is possible that God's Word might be hidden safely in the Quran but not as it has been translated today.

minuteman - thank you for that statement I appreciate it!-- believers and they are our beloved brethren.

Maybe it is a test for us from GOD to see how we treat each other!?!

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 2:52pm

minuteman wrote:

The message of Jesus was only for the Israelis and not for the whole world for all times.

That is not what Jesus said:-

Matthew 28:16-20

However, the eleven disciples went into Gal�i�lee to the mountain where Jesus had arranged for them, ¹⁷ and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted. ¹⁸ And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things."

Acts 1:8

but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju�de�a and Sa�mar�i�a and to the most distant part of the earth."

Matthew 24:14

And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 3:34am

robin I understand your problem. You are a JW. You would say that the message of Jesus was not for the Jews. Well said. I do not believe that. I still say that Jesus was an Israeli prophet and his message was for the Israelis.

But you do not believe that Jesus was an Israeli prophet and that his message was for the Jews. You do not believe all that. So be it.

Please write something from yourself too. Do not just paste the words of the bible NT.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 12:54am

minuteman wrote:

But you do not believe that Jesus was an Israeli prophet and that his message was for the Jews. You do not believe all that. THIS I DO BELIEVE!-robin

Jesus was a full blood Jew!

Jesus also spoke to non jews when he was on earth and told his deciples to take his massage earth wide in due time.

Jesus gave Peter 3 keys (Matt 16:18) of the massage, 1st to the Jews, 2nd to the Samaritans, 3rd to the Gentiles.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 July 2008 at 6:24am

Yes robin- It makes so much sense!!

Wouldn't you go to those who were given the law first, then to thiose that knew nothing of GOD's Law?

I don't understand why Muslims don't get this. Maybe because it has been drummed into their heads? I don't know. There are many bits of misinformation to correct.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 July 2008 at 6:27am

minuteman said - "Please write something from yourself too. Do not just paste the words of the bible NT."

You have mentioned this to me too. We have to, we are moved to, it is GOD's Word by what we live.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 26 July 2008 at 3:24pm

believer wrote:

Yes robin- It makes so much sense!!

Wouldn't you go to those who were given the law first, then to thiose that knew nothing of GOD's Law?

I don't understand why Muslims don't get this. Maybe because it has been drummed into their heads? I don't know. There are many bits of misinformation to correct.

That is easy to answer; they taught not believe what the prophet Jesus said!

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 26 July 2008 at 10:59pm

robin wrote:

believer wrote:

Yes robin- It makes so much sense!!

Wouldn't you go to those who were given the law first, then to thiose that knew nothing of GOD's Law?

I don't understand why Muslims don't get this. Maybe because it has been drummed into their heads? I don't know. There are many bits of misinformation to correct.

That is easy to answer; they taught not believe what the prophet Jesus said!

robin, do not accuse us falsely. Where did Muhammad or the Quran say to Muslims that they should not believe what Jesus said. robin, you also do not believe many things that Jesus said. You clearly do against the teachings of Jesus and try to interpret the teachings of Jesus in your own way without any proofs.

We Muslims disagree with the christians about the teachings of Jesus. That is all. But we believe in Jesus and we love Jesus. But it appears that you do not believe in Jesus as a prophet or as a God. And, robin, you do not love Jesus too. If you do then please write in clear words that you believe in Jesus as a prophet and you believe in Jesus as a God and that you love Jesus.

Please welcome to that. It is not good to blame Muslims who love Jesus.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 July 2008 at 12:27am

minuteman wrote:

robin wrote:

believer wrote:

Yes robin- It makes so much sense!!

Wouldn't you go to those who were given the law first, then to thiose that knew nothing of GOD's Law?

I don't understand why Muslims don't get this. Maybe because it has been drummed into their heads? I don't know. There are many bits of misinformation to correct.

That is easy to answer; they taught not believe what the prophet Jesus said!

Please welcome to that. It is not good to blame Muslims who love Jesus.

Love for Jesus is shown by obeying him; this you do not do as you even question the Bible which he,Jesus, made sure was available to his true followers so as to understand how God is to be worshiped correctly, this you also reject.

John 6:37-40

Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; ³⁸ because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. ³⁹ This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. ⁴⁰ For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day."

John 14:6

Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

What is in red you say is not true thus you reject God's prophet as you disagree with HIM!

John 17:17

Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word* is truth.

*The Bible

The above, John 17:17, you also do not believe as many threds on this forum show, thus you know not of the God of Jesus!

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 29 July 2008 at 2:32am

robin, please read my words again. You have failed to comply to what I had asked. Instead you are giving lecture and quoting bible. I did not want that. I wanted your own words that you do love Jesus and.... and.... ( please see my post again below)

But it appears that you do not believe in Jesus as a prophet or as a God. And, robin, you do not love Jesus too. If you do then please write in clear words that you believe in Jesus as a prophet and you believe in Jesus as a God and that you love Jesus.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 July 2008 at 4:13pm

I would be very happy to read the words of Jesus to decide if I believe what he said. Which Book of the Bible did Jesus write?

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 30 July 2008 at 4:56am

AS far as I know Jesus didn't write any book.

Funny you say that Shasta's Aunt, because I was going thru my grandma's books last week and found a book titled: the book that Jesus wrote. Haven't read the book so i don't know exactly what's in it.

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 July 2008 at 4:56am

believer wrote:

minuteman said - "Please write something from yourself too. Do not just paste the words of the bible NT."

You have mentioned this to me too. We have to, we are moved to, it is GOD's Word by what we live.

Sorry again believer, I am sure it was for robin, not for you. In future I will write the name of the person addressed.

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If any one is bad some one must suffer

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 July 2008 at 2:22pm

Angel wrote:

AS far as I know Jesus didn't write any book.

Funny you say that Shasta's Aunt, because I was going thru my grandma's books last week and found a book titled: the book that Jesus wrote. Haven't read the book so i don't know exactly what's in it.

When you're finished let us know.

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 02 August 2008 at 8:12am

hi Shasta's Aunt, I don't have the book, I simply dismissed the title because Jesus didn't write any book, in my opinion. He had the jewish scriptures to follow and even there I don't think he followed all since he certainly changed peoples views on life. And christianity was formed after Jesus, and the scriptures put together later on.

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 August 2008 at 9:07pm

[QUOTE=Angel]hi Shasta's Aunt, I don't have the book, I simply dismissed the title because Jesus didn't write any book, in my opinion. He had the jewish scriptures to follow and even there I don't think he followed all since he certainly changed peoples views on life. And christianity was formed after Jesus, and the scriptures put together later on.[/QUOTE]

I was just curious as to what it was.

I wonder, do you think Jesus changed people's views or the people who came after Jesus and spread tales of him changed people's views?

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�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 5:54pm

http://www.booksattransworld.co.uk/catalog/book.htm?command=Search&db=twmain.txt&eqisbndata=055214665X - http://www.booksattransworld.co.uk/catalog/book.htm?command=Search&db=twmain.txt&eqisbndata=055214665X

http://www.booksattransworld.co.uk/catalog/book.htm?command=Search&db=twmain.txt&eqisbndata=055214665X -

This appears to be her personnal view - that Jesus wrote John. Funny what people come up with.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 5:06pm

robin wrote:

minuteman wrote:

robin wrote:

believer wrote:

Yes robin- It makes so much sense!!

Wouldn't you go to those who were given the law first, then to thiose that knew nothing of GOD's Law?

I don't understand why Muslims don't get this. Maybe because it has been drummed into their heads? I don't know. There are many bits of misinformation to correct.

That is easy to answer; they taught not believe what the prophet Jesus said!

Please welcome to that. It is not good to blame Muslims who love Jesus.

John 6:37-40

John 14:6

Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

What is in red you say is not true thus you reject God's prophet as you disagree with HIM!

John 17:17

Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word* is truth.

*The Bible

The above, John 17:17, you also do not believe as many threds on this forum show, thus you know not of the God of Jesus!

Robin,

please, with due respect, as a Muslim I believe Jesus (pbuh) to be a true prophet from God, not because the Bible tells me that, but because the Quran tells me that.

That is not because I have a grudge against the Bible, no simply because it does not stand up to be in agreement to itself, thus not from God, in its present form.

I don't like to sign a legal document with inconsistancies or contradictions in it, why would I trust bible to be telling me the truth when it says a thing on one page and later contradicts it on another. Does that truly not mean anything to you? Don't the facts matter more than the rhetoric?

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62