Behind The Bible Fraud
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Topic: Behind The Bible Fraud
Posted By: mohamed
Subject: Behind The Bible Fraud
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 4:34pm
|
Here is an article by Robert Adams that examines how the Bible has been
maliciously altered and interpolated thru the centuries. In the
process the original teachings of the truly great prophet was lost for
ever. http://rense.com/general66/hide.htm |
Replies:
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 3:32am
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Hi Mohamed, * |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 4:21am
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We Christians have never held that the bible is as direct a communication as
you Muslims hold the Qu'ran. Rather we believe that the multiple translations help expand the meaning and the number of people who can benefit from it. I believe the Prophet Muhummad held the Torah, Injeel and Psalms to be important spiritual works. These were collected into the Bible about 300 years before the birth of Muhummad. As Muhummad was not literate, this information must have come directly from Gabriel. Of course Muslims do not hold the bible as scripture, but rejecting the bible adds *nothing* to the Qu'ran. Why not treat it as Muhummad did - as a valuable document but not a perfect life guide as is your wonderful Qu'ran? ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 12:08pm
| My dear bro DavidC, will all the due respect to your beliefs, what do you think about St. Paul's claim when you say "We Christians have never held that the bible is as direct a communication as you Muslims hold the Qu'ran" Didn't he claim a direct communication with divine Jesus as opposed to earthly Jesus? |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 12:12pm
|
Excellant quote from Bible, my bro Jazz, this is really excellant. Now compare for yourself as what Jesus taught in his life time (one may recall his famous sermon of the Mount) and what St. Paul taught later on? You shall find the truth. Inshallah. |
Jazz wrote:Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 1:40pm
|
Hi Ahmad!
I am not familiar with your citation, but here is an explanation from the Catholic Church which is more generalizable to all Christianity than my personal notions: True or False: The Bible is to be understood literally. False. Para. 110: "In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking, and narrating then current. �For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression (DV 12�2)." Note that in reading the bible we Christians are to attempt to discover the author's intentions, hence differences in translations and exegesis. The Qu'ran does not demand this additional level of interpretation. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 1:57pm
|
Hi bro DavidC, I am specifically refering to St. Paul's claim of apostleship through direct communication with divine Jesus in his vision and hence the vast majority of his writtings in NT. Is this not opposite to what you say ""We Christians have never held that the bible is as direct a communication as you Muslims hold the Qu'ran". I hope I have made myself clear! |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 14 July 2005 at 4:44pm
|
Chapter and verse, Ahmad. I'm not sure what you are referring to.
------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 9:08am
| Bro DavidC, I thought Paul's conversion or as what he says "revelation" on the way to damascus is quite famous and popular event among Christians. Nevertheless, kindly see Acts 9:1-22 and then onward, all his actions are purported to be under the influence of "Holy Spirit". Is this not a direct form of divine communication, that the NT is asking people to believe in? |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 10:38am
|
Ok. Remember I am not a scholar but just a Christian trying to learn.
The communication between Jesus and Saul was indeed direct (as described). However, the author of the book of Acts was merely retelling the story. Was it Saul writing in third person or another author relating Saul's testimony? I have no idea. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 12:15pm
| My Bro DavidC, questioning the authorship of NT books is indeed an interesting topic. Hope you shall observe it more closely and then decide on whom one may put his faith? Should we consider the authors of gospel of "Mathew", "Mark", "Luke" or "the fourth" to have written their records under the influence of "Holy Spirit", as many Christians so believe, to put our faith on these books? Or St. Paul's epistles are sufficient for this faith? |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 1:00pm
|
The simple answer is none of the above.
Most Christians are convinced in much the way the author of Acts describes the conversion of Saul. We are suddenly in the grace of God, and see how God extends beyond human logic. I have seen Muslims here describe similar similar experiences. One may be raised in an Islamic tradition, yet suddenly God descends and makes the faith rooted solidly in the heart. Past belief, which was once believed to be the pinnacle of experience, instantly pales in comparison to revelation. A farmer must prepare his fields, and our sacred texts tell us how to prepare our souls, but the spark of life must come from above. What is it that makes the seed sprout? I don't think there is a scientist alive that can directly address this question. The faith of Christians is not bound to books. Many Christians are as illiterate as Muhummad. If something disagrees with scripture it is wrong - but scripture does not circumscribe truth, which is known in it's entirety only to God. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 1:47pm
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Brother DavidC, I see your views much based on faith avoiding facts. This is often known as 'blind faith'. Closing the eyes from the facts may never remove the fact as fact is truth. Without the author, there is no difference between myth and fact. Even though fact has many other tests to pass, but the very first step is the authorship. But here I see my Christian brothers consider it worthless. If the books are not very important for them, then why so much hue and cry about their preservation, their canonization, their revision after revision, and their translation into different languages etc etc. All this without a purpose? I don't think so. In fact, they are the only root source of faith that one has in his life time. Of course only Prophets can claim to have divine revelation and hence become the source of material for these books and hence bear their authorship. But I see you claiming to have revelations for all most all the Christian people by faith. So do you intend to say that God is revealing to all individuals the same way as revealed to the Prophets? This would indeed be a big surprise for me. Secondly, illiteracy doesn't imply illogical. It just mean one could get to traditional way of reading and/or writing a spoken language. Hence, even illiterate people are logical in their reasoning as without this human couldn't be differentiated from animals and the life would have been in choas. Isn't it? |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 2:46pm
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Ahmad, I am limited here by the orientation of this forum and my own wish
to not disrupt anyone's faith in God or the Qu'ran. At some point, we all must BELIEVE and not merely ADMIT to the truth of scripture. No, we are not all prophets. When touched by the divine, most of us so priviledged are crushed under the weight of humility and are unsuited to the demands of prophethood. AhmadJoyia, I feel I communicate better with you than most members here. Your understanding has benefited me temendously. Can you bring up some "compare and contrast" examples from the Qu'ran? Perhaps we can open up this conversation to the other members. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 15 July 2005 at 3:49pm
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Hi Mohamed, It seems that any book can be altered. Here is a link to an article which discusses Quran being altered. http://bible.ca/islam/library/Goldsack/Readings/chap4.htm - http://bible.ca/islam/library/Goldsack/Readings/chap4.htm
|
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 5:55pm
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My dear bro DavidC, can you explain a little as what do you mean by
Also, if not all, do you mean there are some among you who are prophets when you say "No, we are not all prophets."?
|
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:35pm
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This thread is winding down, AhmadJoyia. We are debating semantics in
someone else's thread. I say let's put it away for now and pick it up again later. This subject comes up every two weeks, so it shouldn't be too long  ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 8:10am
| Oh, I see. Ok, as your wish. |
Posted By: hazeshawn
Date Posted: 28 July 2005 at 7:20pm
|
Trying to decipher the bible is like trying to decipher an M.Night Shaloman movie. They're both fictitious! ------------- To Hell With Terrorism! (I don't believe in the "made up Hell that's in the fiction books, but rather an Island in the Cayman Islands) |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 6:16am
|
The bible today is essentially the same as is the time of the Prophet
Muhummad. Several translations have been made drawn from the original Aramaic. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 3:01pm
Hi Hazeshawn, Have you ever studied the New Testament, particularly the Gospels and what Jesus was reported to have said? I think there is a very profound and distinct guidance in what Jesus had to say and it doesn't rely on any miracles or divinity that may be claimed on the part of "Christian" zealots. One may discard all the claims of divinity about Jesus and still find essentially the same guidance, unaltered from it's true meaning. Would you like to discuss and decipher the reported sayings attributed to Jesus? To clarify my position, I am not a member of any religion and I do prefer to believe in a creative principle and principal. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 29 July 2005 at 3:07pm
Considering your positive assertoin that "bible" is fictitious (Gospels too?)........you are now in a position to prove your claim.........can you do this?...........otherwise it is merely an opinion. What criterion do you use to determine what is fictitious and what is not?..........then we may apply this criterion to other texts that are claimed to not be fictitious. Please proceed. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 11:07am
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Dear Bro DavidC, which Bible are you talking about when you say "Several translations have been made drawn from the original |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 3:12pm
|
Here is a good starting page for bible translations in English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English_Bible_translations - Wikipedia The Jerusalem Bible looks like it is the closest to the Bible known and recommended by the Prophet Muhummad, but I am not a scholar. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 31 July 2005 at 5:57pm
|
My question specifically is regards to "which Bible" are you referring to? The "OT" or "NT" etc as both have different origins as regards to their languages, beside the startling differences between Jews' Hebrew Bible and Christians' OT? Secondly, the reference you gave, explicitly shows that though Hebrew may had been the language of people of Jereuslam, but for almost 8 centuries prior to the advent of Jesus, Aramaic became the lingua franca of the region. However, none of the books of NT claim to have Aramaic origin? |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 8:43am
|
I imagine you are right, AhmadJoyia. Again, I'm not a scholar.
My point was: A) The Christian bible, OT & NT, was known to the Prophet Muhummad. B) That a very similar translation is available today if one cares to look for it. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 2:50am
This is supported by sahih ahadith. al-Bukari http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/ - http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/ http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=1 - No. 3 - Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):
'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise
and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert
the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly,
frequently and regularly." al-Bukari http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=56 - No. 3372 - Narrated Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read
Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations)
for the Prophet. Later on he returned to christianity
again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have
written for him." Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried
him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body
out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They
dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he
had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but
in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out.
They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the
grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run
away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but
in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out.
So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human
beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground). sahih al-Bukari http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=7 - No. 341 - Narrated 'Imran:
Then the Prophet proceeded on and the people complained to him of thirst. Thereupon he got down and called a person (the narrator 'Auf added that Abu Raja' had named him but he had forgotten) and 'Ali, and ordered them to go and bring water. So they went in search of water and met a woman who was sitting on her camel between two bags of water. They asked, "Where can we find water?" She replied, "I was there (at the place of water) this hour yesterday and my people are behind me." They requested her to accompany them. She asked, "Where?" They said, "To Allah's Apostle ." She said, "Do you mean the man who is called the Sabi, (with a new religion)?" They replied, "Yes, the same person. So come along." They brought her to the Prophet and narrated the whole story. He said, "Help her to dismount." The Prophet asked for a pot, then he opened the mouths of the bags and poured some water into the pot. Then he closed the big openings of the bags and opened the small ones and the people were called upon to drink and water their animals. So they all watered their animals and they (too) all quenched their thirst and also gave water to others and last of all the Prophet gave a pot full of water to the person who was Junub and told him to pour it over his body. The woman was standing and watching all that which they were doing with her water. By Allah, when her water bags were returned the looked like as if they were more full (of water) than they had been before (Miracle of Allah's Apostle) Then the Prophet ordered us to collect something for her; so dates, flour and Sawiq were collected which amounted to a good meal that was put in a piece of cloth. She was helped to ride on her camel and that cloth full of food-stuff was also placed in front of her and then the Prophet said to her, "We have not taken your water but Allah has given water to us." She returned home late. Her relatives asked her: "O so and so what has delayed you?" She said, "A strange thing! Two men met me and took me to the man who is called the Sabi' and he did such and such a thing. By Allah, he is either the greatest magician between this and this (gesturing with her index and middle fingers raising them towards the sky indicating the heaven and the earth) or he is Allah's true Apostle." Afterwards the Muslims used to attack the pagans around her abode but never touched her village. One day she said to her people, "I think that these people leave you purposely. Have you got any inclination to Islam?" They obeyed her and all of them embraced Islam. Abu 'Abdultah said: The word Saba'a means "The one who has deserted his old religion and embraced a new religion." Abul 'Ailya said, "The Sabis are a sect of people of the Scripture who recite the Book of psalms."
http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=56 - |
Posted By: hazeshawn
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 8:53am
|
When was the last time your "God" spoke to anyone? When was the last time you saw someone part a sea or walk on water? It's ficticious as hell is. When will you religious freaks wake up? ------------- To Hell With Terrorism! (I don't believe in the "made up Hell that's in the fiction books, but rather an Island in the Cayman Islands) |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 4:28am
That's all OT stuff. I am referring to guidances and advice that was atrubuted to Jesus, references are to be found in Gospels, not Old Testament stories, which Jesus actually "rebelled" against, all in the light of God (he called "The Father") but not in a name, nor a religion. It appears that Jesus was, anti-religion.......he never sought to establish any rule through religion or to form any ritualistic, group-worship organization. I don't think Jesus even called himself a prophet or divine, nor did he claim his mother had a virgin conception, yet if one studies closely the guidance he shared, one may see there is more to it all than the "miracles" and claims of divinity that in my opinion, actually distract from the true guidance and lead to division. I strongly believe that if one is seeking a true, clear guidance for humanity, in respect of creation, then one need to go no further than the guidance of Jesus or whoever it was that said the things attributed to him...............Jesus didn't deliberately invent or start "christianity" or any religions! |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 11:49am
|
Dear Bro DavidC, though I do agree that both Jewish and Christians scriptures were prevalent at that time and place of Prophet Mohammad, but given the fact that there were so many of them (both canonical as well as non-canonical) , I really don't know which of them were actually being used by the Christians of that land. Also, though one thing is for certain that concept of "Trinity" was in vogue among them and it is this concept that is specifically adressed in Quran, yet there were many Christians who didn't associate any divinity with the Prophet Jesus e.g. the ebonites or as Bro Jazz has pointed out for chritians like "Warqa bin Naufal" etc. Therefore, one can't construe that Bible at that time was of any ubiquitous nature. |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 03 August 2005 at 1:30pm
|
Certainly, when dealing with ancient literature much is unclear.
To go back to the thread author's allegation of "bible fraud", I think this is unsupported. Others have claimed the Qu'ran is a "fraud" - also an unsupported and even more absurd conclusion. The history of the bible is not entirely certain, some changes have taken place, and there are some contradictions. This does not add up to fraud or make it less reliable than other commonly accepted ancient documents. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 9:57am
| Bro DavidC, without making any biased opinion about any scriptural books, what do you say about the canonization of NT Bible? Was this not a purely human conjecture based upon the orientation of the people involved in the process? Secondly, when I have to trust someone's teachings to put my faith on him, I must know him without ambiguity. Isn't it? Can we put the same kind of trust and hence faith on the books in NT with dubious authorships? |
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 12:03pm
|
The amount of "purely human conjecture" involved in the NT canonization,
in my judgement, is less than the amount involved in the canonization of hadith literature in Islam. Christians have no "weak" or "strong" evaluations of NT, and there are no Christians who reject the NT outright as Shias do the hadith. ------------- Christian; Wesleyan M.Div. |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 4:06pm
|
All due respect for your judgement, but it may be pointed out that though ahadith literature doesn't stand at par with Quran, simply because of its human authorships, its acceptance is based on scientific methodology of verification and hence authentication. Dubious authorship is one of the foremost indication for declaring any such writting as "Weak" and therefore unreliable and hence unworthy of any consideration. No faith based arguments can be accepted for such work. Matter of outright rejection of hadith from Shias is more of a faith based than secientific reasoning, hence don't consider it worth a problem at all. On the more, Yes, there are some serious objection by them, that do need serious consideration of thoughts; but again, they also bring in the logical arguments to make their case and not merely the faith based. On the other hand, in the case of NT, we don't have such a thing known as logical argumentation. Nearly everything is based upon faith. Though you say there is no such thing as "weak" or "strong" evalutions of NT in Christianity, yet each and every church have its own interpretation of the same Bible, depending upon whom you ask to. I guess it all depends upon which verse of the Bible one likes it more over the others and hence have the relative "strong" over "weak" verses in their doctrinal differences among themselves that too, all based upon faith alone. Yet another level of difficulty, other than dubious authorship, arises from the fact that the teachings of Prohet Jesus in original language have been permanently lost. Hence everything we have in Bible is again an interpretation of someone who translated it or who related it from that source in another language. |
Posted By: angela mcbride
Date Posted: 14 August 2005 at 4:58am
|
I think you guys may be interested in http://www.freewebs.com/holygrail/ - www.freewebs.com/holygrail/ Maybe Jesus did manage to leave us an untouchable message after all. ------------- ANGE(LAMcB)RIDE |
Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 August 2005 at 11:27pm
O my goodness!! Yet another christian denomination or what? What is this holygrail has to do with Bible or Jesus? No clue as what this site is upto. Kindly explain it yourself than refering to un-ending website like this. |
Posted By: angela mcbride
Date Posted: 15 August 2005 at 1:10am
|
The holy grail would seem to be the scroll with seven seals Book roll of the lamb, as predicterd in revelations. It has been buried for millenia in the Lord's Prayer and I have the code.It could also arguably be the arc of the covenant, omega code,rod of measure. I have accepted the Randi Foundation supernatural challenge by offering to open it for him. For the challenge acceptance he requires preliminary proof which the web site (challenge acceptance) already contains(Home page-chapter "what will I do for the prliminaries"). I've said a little more about it on the new members introduction page. IF anyone here is interested in this, I would like to talk to them. Then I will begin a new topic for it, or not. ------------- ANGE(LAMcB)RIDE |
Posted By: Deus
Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 11:01am
| I have interest in your holy grail, but I don't want to divert from the topic of this thread. But I'm wondering whose holy grail are you talking about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_grail - The grail of the Celts? The grail of the Fisher King? Or the grail of King Arthur? |
Posted By: angela mcbride
Date Posted: 16 August 2005 at 12:44pm
|
would seem to be all of the above and my "theory" is that something similar may be possible with the Islamic oral tradition and thought some of you (who dare) may like to try it. I would be delighted if it turned out to be true.I can't imagine God placing it in only a Christian English text and anyway I'm a palistinian at heart. I've added a visual representation of the scroll to my site today,again http://www.freewebs.com/holygrail/ - www.freewebs.com/holygrail/ the code refers to a locatin in England in "grail country" (a geographical miiddel point between stone henge avebury and glastonbury - the so called magic triangle (for lay line freaks) and crop circle country ------------- ANGE(LAMcB)RIDE |
Posted By: angela mcbride
Date Posted: 18 August 2005 at 3:33am
|
This code is a message which brings all of the above together. It's a message refering to the celtic godess asking me a celtic person to go to her territory. It is coded in grail symbols (arthurian & bloodline) and the spiral which it forms is also among other religions a celtic symbol. The Christian connection is the Lord's prayer. No one knows what the grail actually is but this code has EVERYTHING to do with it. I've added visuals to my site making it way easier to understand. ------------- ANGE(LAMcB)RIDE |
Posted By: pauline35
Date Posted: 07 April 2007 at 6:29am
 Great! Oh! GOD, help me to decide.
|
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 08 June 2008 at 1:50pm
It cannot be lost for ever, as the Great Prophet Jesus said:-
John 8:32
and YOU will know the truth,. . .
John 17:17
Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.
So how can what the Prophet said not be true?
Can humans stop God from letting the truth be know of what Jesus said; is man stronger than God so sa to stop him doing so??
|
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 5:52am
The above must be true because the prophet Jesus said:-
John 17:17
Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.
|
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 August 2008 at 9:39pm
|
robin, Jesus care of John said:
John 8:32
and YOU will know the truth,. . .
So, we have now known the truth that bible has been altered as mentioned with proofs in the above posts. Jesus said "You will know the Truth."
So the truth has come out. Please believe that the bible has been severely worked on in the past and even today that editing of bible is going on at high speed.
Specially, your version with Yehovas, how long have you had that? Could you tell me if that version of bible was in circulation 200 years ago? ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 19 August 2008 at 7:01am
|
John 8
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
...
51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 August 2008 at 9:36pm
believer, the above verses are true. Jesus was right when he said to the Jews " If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
That is perfectly right.
The next verse is also true, i.e. I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death..
Very good. We believe what Jesus said and it is true. It means that any one who will listen to Jesus and will follow him will not die, that is the spiritual death. That man will live for ever. That is well understood. But please tell me if I am wrong. Thanks.
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 2:59pm
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minuteman your statement that is false is -
So, we have now known the truth that bible has been altered as mentioned with proofs in the above posts. Jesus said "You will know the Truth."
So the truth has come out. Please believe that the bible has been severely worked on in the past and even today that editing of bible is going on at high speed.
Specially, your version with Yehovas, how long have you had that? Could you tell me if that version of bible was in circulation 200 years ago? ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 11:51pm
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believer, you have not replied to the post which was for you. Instead, you have come back with a post which was meant for robin. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 August 2008 at 6:19am
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oops, sorry!! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 01 September 2008 at 1:06pm
One example is the King James Bible of 1611, some 397 years ago
Exo 6:3
And I appeared vnto Abraham, vnto Isaac, and vnto Iacob, by the Name of God Almighty, but by my name IEHOVAH was I not knowen to them.
Isa 12:2
Behold, God is my saluation: I will trust, and not be afraid; for the Lord IEHOVAH is my strength and my song, he also is become my saluation.
Isa 26:4
Trust ye in the Lord for euer: for in the Lord Iehouah is euerlasting strength. Psa 83:18
That men may knowe, that thou, whose name alone is IEHOVAH: art the most High ouer all the earth.
"IEHOVAH" is the Latin form of "Jehovah" |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 03 September 2008 at 4:53am
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robin youhave posted a few lines from exodus as follows:
One example is the King James Bible of 1611, some 397 years ago
Exo 6:3
And I appeared vnto Abraham, vnto Isaac, and vnto Iacob, by the Name of God Almighty, but by my name IEHOVAH was I not knowen to them.
So this tells us that the real name of God was not known to Abraham and Issac and jacob. Why was that? It is funny is it not? This name yehova was first made known to which man? and why? Did God change His name on the way like he did with Abram and Sarai? There must have been a major change in God to have changed his name because we have seen that practice in case of Abram and sarai too. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 1:52pm
In harmony with this, Jehovah could later say to Moses: "I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty [be�El� Shad�dai�], but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them." (Ex 6:3) This could not mean that the name Jehovah was unknown to these patriarchs, since it was frequently used by them as well as by others before them. (Ge 4:1, 26; 14:22; 27:27; 28:16) In fact, in the book of Genesis, which relates the lives of the patriarchs, the word "Almighty" occurs only 6 times, whereas the personal name Jehovah was written 172 times in the original Hebrew text. Yet, while these patriarchs had come to appreciate by personal experience God�s right to and qualifications for the title of "the Almighty One," they had not had opportunity to appreciate the full meaning and implications of his personal name, Jehovah. In this regard, The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Vol. 1, p. 572) comments: "The former revelation, to the Patriarchs, concerned promises belonging to a distant future; it supposed that they should be assured that He, Yahweh (or Jehovah), was such a God (�el) as was competent (one possible meaning of sadday) to fulfill them. The revelation at the bush was greater and more intimate, God�s power and immediate and continuing presence with them being all wrapped up in the familiar name of Yahweh (or Jehovah)."�Edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980.
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Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 06 September 2008 at 3:03pm
*Further to the above we have Geneva Bible 1587 where God�s personal name, Iehovah (Jehovah) appeared some 421 years ago:-
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place, Iehouah-ijreh. as it is said this day, In the mount will the Lord be seene. Exo 6:3 And I appeared vnto Abraha, to Izhak, & to Iaakob by the Name of Almightie God: but by my Name Iehouah was I not knowen vnto the. Exo 15:3 The Lord is a man of warre, his Name is Iehouah. Exo 17:15 (And Moses builte an altar and called the name of it, Iehouah-nissi) Exo 23:17 These three times in the yeere shall all thy men children appeare before the Lord Iehouah. Exo 34:23 Thrise in a yere shal all your men children appeare before the Lorde Iehouah God of Israel. Jdg 6:24 Then Gideon made an altar there vnto the Lord, and called it, Iehouah shalom: vnto this day it is in Ophrah, of the father of the Ezrites. Psa 83:18 That they may knowe that thou, which art called Iehouah, art alone, euen the most High ouer all the earth. |
Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 7:03am
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Vol. 1, p. 572) comments: "The former revelation, to the Patriarchs, concerned promises belonging to a distant future; it supposed that they should be assured that He, Yahweh, was such a God (�el) as was competent (one possible meaning of sadday) to fulfill them. The revelation at the bush was greater and more intimate, God�s power and immediate and continuing presence with them being all wrapped up in the familiar name of Yahweh."�Edited by J. D. Douglas, 1980.
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Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 16 September 2008 at 7:35am
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 1:31pm
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Hi,
There is no doubt among many Bible scholars and one who study it for knowledge like myself to find fundamantal contradictions in the teachings of what we now know as the 'Bible'. Denying such claims is against logic and truth, but we all are free to believe the way we want.
I have said before, before I read Bible I always thought it to be true and it never occur to me to even think that it has any errors. It was not until I studied it to know it to know my then Christian wife better that I found so many errors in it beyond belief. It was pointing out those errors on very basic fundamantals of Christian faith that my wife opened up to learn about Islam and eventually became Muslim.
'Three Basics'
Even though there are many contradictions in the Bible, there are three main ones that concern with more than 90% of a person's belief, in my opinion.
God, who and what is God
Jesus, who and what he is, and what not.
Salvation, how it is achieved.
On these three points the Bible as a source is unreliable since it supports opposing views on them all.
Those of you who know their Bible don't have to guess those verses, they know what I am talking about.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 7:10am
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honeto - if you read and study the Bible with a heart open to the Holy Spirit you will understand all of it and there will be no contradictions!
It has to be open to the Holy Spirit, I don't mean Gabriel here.
God, who and what is God
Jesus, who and what he is, and what not.
Salvation, how it is achieved. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 7:11am
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Remember honeto by you saying this you are disputing your Quran. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 6:53pm
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Come on, we have been there over and over my friend. You want to put cart in front of the horse.
First you must read with a neutral and fair mind, if it does not make sense don't bother getting emotional, leave it and look somewhere else and don't think yuo are without God, as you are never.
Upon reading if it makes sense and does not show inconsistancies, even then you are free to believe it or not.
But it is always after it making sense and proving right that you believe upon then you put your trust in it and built your faith. See the faith comes last.
So my friend that's how we follow steps in Islam. While you and many are told to first close your eyes and built your faith and then find those verses that strengthen it, and find mystry in others.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 24 November 2008 at 7:31pm
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here's another, as a christain i was taught that you must have "blind faith " to follow jesus. yet jesus taught " when the blind lead the blind both will fall into a hole". so go figure.
love leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 November 2008 at 6:30pm
Nazarene,
you nailed it just right. I cannot believe people who would not sign their credit card slip, or a sales contract, or a loan or lease agreement worth a few hundred dollars without going over its contents will be so reluctant to have knowledge about their belief before signing their entire life of the hereafter with only blind faith first.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 November 2008 at 8:32am
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honeto actually the Quran is a good study guide to use in discovering the truth that is the Holy Bible.
Where is blind faith stated in the Bible?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1963 - http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1963 http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/questions-of-christians/is-christianity-based-on-blind-faith - ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 29 November 2008 at 1:49pm
Response to believer
I agree with the believer because Quran guides us to discover where the truth is in Bible and where it is not.
Thats why Quran says in Surah 3:3
"...and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 November 2008 at 4:41pm
....and I wonder why do you depend so much on links and websites. Can you write something from yourself?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 November 2008 at 5:00pm
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 4:00pm
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acording to my christain time, jesus 's ministry is said to have lasted 3 years. thats 3 years of intence teaching .
why then in the bible all the teachings he gives ( the words in red ) takes about 1 hr. or so to read { matthew } ?? after all that time teaching,this is all that's worth repeating? a 1 hr. lesson. in there years!! crumbs from the masters table i say!
go figure that one out too.
peace
leland
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 10:52am
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Assalamu alaikum. The reality is more than what you said. As for the RED LETTERING, we are told to assume them to be Words of Allah and therefore Pure that should agree with what Allah revealed to Muhammad. But now some of the Bible do not have the RED LETTERING. What I do not understand is was Jesus also taught the OT? Muhammad's Message began with the creation of the inorganic world and then the organic world and was centered on the Islam of Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Now, if as Jesus said in Matthew 5, then he must have been taught only the Ten Commandents. But what is more important is what do they do next, if they find out that there is fraud in the Bible? Friendship. |
Posted By: OneWay
Date Posted: 28 January 2009 at 8:34am
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The Dead Sea Scroll end any controversy over the bible beign tampered with.
The Dead Sea Scrolls show that the old testement has not been altered. The only book not contained in the Dead sea scrolls was the book of Esther.
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Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 29 January 2009 at 2:33pm
Pagan trintarian christians LIES Regarding the
http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdul-rahman_klimaszewski/dead_sea_scrolls.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdul-rahman_klimaszewski/dead_sea_scrolls.htm
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Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 06 February 2009 at 8:31pm
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 06 February 2009 at 8:43pm
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 22 February 2009 at 12:06am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S24z6wl1jZg&feature=channel_page -
peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzi5Ld6RdjE&feature=channel - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzi5Ld6RdjE&feature=channel
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 March 2009 at 8:47am
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LOL!! honeto another baseless attack. I use links in the same number as all the other posters on this forum. ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |