Concerned about Hadith no 14
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Topic: Concerned about Hadith no 14
Posted By: SilverArrow
Subject: Concerned about Hadith no 14
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:27pm
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Dear All, I am in process to study Islam very seriously. Right now I am studying the 40 Hadiths. I come to read about the Hadith no 14. Basically this Hadith says: - If a person is Muslim and then leaves Islam out of his own conscience for other spiritual path is considered treason and harmful to Uma and society. Based on this kind of thinking that person is punishable by death. In my view, this is very harming to Islam and is not respecting a basic tenet of Islam which says that the religion is NOT COMPULSORY. As long that the person which leaves Islam remains a perfectly good person, helpful and caring to others why this person should be condemned and killed for his own conviction to leave Islam for another spiritual path? Could you elaborate on this subject? Thanks, Alex |
Replies:
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 10:10am
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How do women feel about this 'hadith' if it be true ?
"Narrated �Imran bin Husain :
The Prophet said, �I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women.�" Bukhari vol.4:464 p.305.
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Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 26 September 2008 at 4:54pm
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Silver Arrow. Assalamu alaika.
You will not be killed since you were not born in Islam. Ideally, you should be taken your khalifa to discuss with you what you did not understand and give you ample time till you understand it. The holy Prophet gave one of his uncles/nephew six month to think about Islam, when Umar wanted to behead him. My advise to you is always read explanations and not the mere plain translation of a hadith. You will be mislead. I hope you are learning Arabic.
Friendship.
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Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 26 September 2008 at 5:05pm
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Assalamu alaikum.
This is a very interesting hadith. Briefly those believers with sincere intention, but could not find the ideal environment to practice Islam. Poor does not mean lack of money. No! A lot of people are deceived through misinterpretation of the Sunna. The importance of learning Arabic language is not emphasized for the Muslims. We must learn Arabic to understand Islam since we do not have a central authority and command. Look at what is going on in Saudi Arabia where they obsere the standing at Arafat not on the 9th day! The imams read long Sermon on Fridays and observe the Salat late afternoon. None of the Kings lead the prayer!
Friendship.
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Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 11 December 2008 at 10:49pm
In one hadith I can recall of memory, roughly it says:
Most of the women who go to hell are because this - he pointed his finger to his tongue. And most men who go to hell are because this - and he pointed his finger to his private part.
If I am not mistaken the Bukharis and the Muslims combined are 8000 hadiths, or more. You have quoted one hadith above.
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Gulliver wrote:Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 10:12am
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Assalamu alaikum. That was the literal interpretation. I think it refers to the temperament of women and their responsibility of looking after the children, looking after the trust of the husband. You see women in Islam have alot of responsibility. As for man, I think it refers to the anatomical position of his private part that can be easily stimulated. I think the population of women exceeds that of man. I do not think that there are females who are yet to believe in the teachings of Muhammad. Friendship. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 5:31am
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Gulliver was answered that in an other thread, perhaps. I see him inactive now-a-days, Else he was very regular. May Allah swt ease his days.
We shall discuss this hadith again as it may help many of our readers to get any misconception cleared. We generally see that this hadith is picked up and Islam is potrayed as, women are destined to hell etc. There are many hadiths which discuss positively of women and upgrade her with honour. Infact Allah swt, revealed one verses {ayaat}in her favour when a wife complained of her husband. The first three positions are entitled to a mother and fourth is a father. This hadith which says that women shud be more in numbers, does n't give a clean chit to men. And secondly, we need to note that they are n't destined to hell, since the Prophet said. No ! not at all. Apart from other important reasons of her weaknesses,when we logically, view it, the stats show that the number of women are always greater than men. Look at any generations,census. they are large in numbers. So the ratio may get increased in hell as well. ------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 6:16am
Hello Alex,
Yes, we see you studying Islam sincerly. May Allah swt guide you towards right path. This question is also very intresting.
Here;s that ayah, which says - "There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path."
Actually Alex, we are taught not to compel anyone into Islam. Only when they gets contended that its the true path, he can then embrace it by the grace of Allah. So you see that he's is n't forced at all. When he's able to distinguish betweeen right and a wrong path, he enters into the folds of Islam. He's given full freedom. But after embracing Islam, and knowing that its the only true path, when he leaves it, then he's to be executed. He is called apostate. We had discussions as why an apostate is to be killed. But remember, he's executed only when he is an islamic state. He's a threat to the society, as even after knowing the true path, he returns from it.He may be the cause of great fitnahs There is a hadith and its gyst is a believer in Islam, hates to return to kufr even if he had little spark of faith {belief}. He leaves islam when he has no faith. So he is to be executed. But remember, this can happen only in an islamic state.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 11:31am
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Assalamu alaikum. Silver Arrow commented: (1) In my view, this is very harming to Islam and is not respecting a basic tenet of Islam which says that the religion is NOT COMPULSORY. Response: Muhammad Rasulullah came to teach us Islam, implying that Way of Life consisting of code of conducts and acts of worship from Allah the Creator to mankind. If there was another creator besides Him, that creator also had the right to command his creations the way he likes. The essence is subordination or servitude. Now a slave has no freedom, unlike our enslavement to Allah which is voluntary. It is governed by Ayat (signs, proofs, arguments, evidences etc). Allah considered it a great of sign of ingratitude to turn (rebel) against Him. Rebels are usually killed. However, Islamic way of killing had its route from the Old Testament. Refer to the encouter of Elijah with the false gods. In the case of the sunna Muhammad they are considered as spies in addition. However an apostate is not going to be killed instanteneously without giving him enough time to repent and adjust. Today, he should be taken a psychiatrist after scanning his brain and doing all biochemical tests to ensure that he is mentally sound. When Abubakar the first Khalifah faced apostasy after the death of Muhammad Rasulullah he did not kill them. However those who took arms against the Islamic state wher killed in the battle that ensued. 11) As long that the person which leaves Islam remains a perfectly good person, helpful and caring to others why this person should be condemned and killed for his own conviction to leave Islam for another spiritual path? Response: Our preachers failed to explain that Muhammad was sent by Allah to tell the world the True Form of Worship and Obedience He Commanded the Children of Israel. He came as a reminder initially and for conflict resolution. He called the Children of Israel and appealed to them to affirm his position. He told them virtaully all they knew in the Old Testament. He did not change the basic Shari'a of the Children of Israel, but rather simplified them with pardon, forgiveness and overlooking and minor faults. His Shari'a is nothing but forgiveness. Understand that those who do not face the East to pray, are according to their faith Muslims. Friendship. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 11:04am
Silver Arrow,
I wish you sucess in learning and understanding Islam, which simply is directing your services and worshiop in submission to your Creator alone and none else.
I would ask you to first start your studies with the Quran, the direct word of God to each and every individual. Once you have understood and grasped the meaning and message of Quran, you can start looking into Hadith, which is not direct word of God, but narrations by deciples. If any of the Hadith in essence opposes what Quran's position is on that matter, you have to accept Quran's version on it first.
We know from both the Quran and the Bible, that if anyone leaves the worship of their Creator, and worships others, God the Creator has said to condemn that person to hell fire eternally. But as far as if a person has a choice still to worship others, yes. The Quran is very clear when it says that there is no compulsion in religion.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 11:29am
Gulliver,
this has been talked before and answered. The Quran is very clear, God will only punish those that disown Him, and God will reward with Paradise those who humble themselves in Worship to Him alone whether be man or woman.
33:73 So Allah punisheth hypocritical men and hypocritical women, and idolatrous men and idolatrous women. But Allah pardoneth believing men and believing women, and Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Now as far as more women in hell, it may be so. Here is how: We humans are either male or female. Data tells us that the number of females over males is not always 100% equal. That can be one reason, meaning there may be more women.
To answer the same, to understand it better, the second and more important reason lies here in the West. If I ask you next time you are in line to checkout at your Walmart to look around and you will see these magazines, lots of them around you. Tell me generally speaking who you see dominant in terms of exposure on the front pages, causing men to have a gaze, and possibly the urge to pick one up. If you think about it, you have the answer in there. Also as far as teh poor in majority in Paradise, that may be so as well. Prophets like Jesus and Mohammed (pbut) had less in personal belonging than me and you, as they lived by the message they brought.
If you hold your Bible valid, there is your asnwer in there: Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 12:11pm
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LOL Oh Hasan, for God's sake. As John Mc Enroe used to say, "YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS !" "The second and more important reason lies here in the West. If I ask you next time you are in line to checkout at your Walmart to look around and you will see these magazines, lots of them around you. Tell me generally speaking who you see dominant in terms of exposure on the front pages, causing men to have a gaze," I am sorry Hasan. But if this is the best you can do, I really can't take anything you say remotely seriously. Blame women for men being whoremongers. Get real, and do some proper research. Women do not create the market for female sexploitation and 'filth'. Men do. Something in the 'programming' perhaps. Jesus saw this in the hypocrites about to stone the 'woman caught in adultery'. Why should women be punished for the sins of men ? That is in effect what you are suggesting here. I believe Jesus is talking about poverty of spirit. When we are attached to 'things/creations' that take the place in the heart of the Creator - then it is indeed difficult to 'enter the Kingdom'. "The Kingdom of God is within you......... " If 'God' does not have proper place on the throne of the heart, then some thing else will.... " There is an expression, "where the heart lies the feet will wander............ " |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 12:41pm
| As salaamulaikum Brothers and Sisters.First of all the study of Hadith in itself is a science.Second there are some Hadiths that are concidered to be weak according to numberous Shayki.3rd as for the comment about women and Hadith heres one for them. Jannah(heaven)lies beneath the feet of Mothers. Forty Hadith by Hadhrat Moulana Zafar Ali Khan |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 12:45pm
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Why don't you avert your gaze Hasan ? Stop blaming abused women for your testosterone levels. May God forgive you for EVER looking at even one cover of those magazines. ;-) Sounds to me like you've been peeping at too many Walmart magazines, and it's sent you gaga, while all the women get sent to hell. LOL We don't have Walmart over here, though I did hear, I think, they are looking to buy over, into one of the big supermarket chains this side of the Atlantic. Not too much 'poverty of spirit' amongst the corporates of America. Actually this is not really a laughing matter. I was on a forum the other day. Some young guy in US is approached to 'act' in porn movies. Offered a lot of money, he said. He is asking if it might be harmful to him. Many were telling him it was no harm, make easy money etc etc. He was being offered many 000s of dollars. I asked him why he was even questioning it in the first place, if he did not think at some level it might be harmful to himself at least. If he could earn that money doing something else, would he even think to 'act' in such a movie. Would he degrade himself. I got a few bashings, but didn't care, cause it's the truth. 'Act'ing in such a way degrades the human person, and those who say otherwise are either liars or mentally ill. It would be abusing himself and at least one other human being. Money was his motivation. Sexploited. Yes he has a choice. But many, if not all of these people have serious histories that impact their ability to 'consent' in all freedom of choice. Many, because they are already so damaged have no real clue what they are getting into. Instead of gawping at the women on the covers of the magazines, and I know it is difficult, being a society saturated in degrading images of all human beings - look at where the real money goes, and the lifestyles it affords those 'pimps' at the top of that particular food chain - men for the most part. The women are degraded, and turned into 'whores' by men. That's a fact. It happens to men too, though not in such large numbers. Where are all the ologists here when you need 'em ? Are women going to be sent to hell for being exploited by men ? Or men, by some women (vacuous tramps, as Joan Rivers calls 'em. lol) Well you managed one thing in this Hasan. You got me back here and a good laugh. Maybe I was in need of both. The Lord works in mysterious ways ;-) |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 6:57pm
Gulliver,
there is no kidding in this matter, let me asure you on that.
You don't like my answer it does not make it invalid. Thing is, that you want to hear what you like, not necessarily the truth or logic.
The devil is the deciever, but remember those decieved by him will also bear the consequences. Those who use women for selling their product, and those women who sell their body for that purpose or for other immoral activity, they let themselves be traped in devil's game thus equal partners in whatever is done as a result.
You may be unaware of teachings of your own Bible. In case, let me tell you that those, according to the Bible, who cause others to sin have sinned and deserve punishment:
Matthew 18:6 "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
The walmart checkout magazine trap was just an example to show. In every media outlet without any argument women's body and sexual exploitation is enough for a smart person to figure out what is going on and what to expect, and who is to blame. Remember these women are adults and very aware of what they are doing, thus have full responsiblity over what they cause.
After all you guys are the one who blamed Eve for Adam's sin in Christianity, they both were invloved and were responsible for that sin of disobedience to God.
Now, on rich men not being able to enter the kindom of heaven according to the Bible, you carved out your own explaination that it does not means "rich man" litrally, against the Hadith of poor being in Paradise.
I find this Biblical quote very interesting to answer your assumption on this matter.
Luke16:19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 1:29am
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"After all you guys are the one who blamed Eve for Adam's sin in Christianity, they both were invloved and were responsible for that sin of disobedience to God." "You guys ?" How very American of you ;-) Us and them again, Hasan ? ;-) I don't think that gets anyone anywhere. Isn't that exactly what you are doing here too. Blaming 'Eve'. I know it is no laughing matter. Believe me Hasan, I know it is most definitely not a laughing matter. It's one of those things in life that is often so tragic that you use 'black humour'. You say Christianity blamed Eve for the 'sin' of disobedience. You are doing no better, claiming more women go to hell than men, and that it's women to blame for being abused and exploited by men ? Sex is power. And sex, as power, is very often abused/misused. Where do we learn all that, and whose 'fault' is it really. Ours, the shaitan's, God's ? Even in the Qu'ran, it suggests that if a wife is being difficult, that at the second attempt at resolving the issue, it not being resolved, the man should keep away from the marital bed. Why use such a tactic. That women may use their sex to cause men to sin. Does the Qu'ran recommend men use their sex to keep women in their place ? Why do they do this, use sex for any reason ? Why the strippers, prostitutes, glamour girls, porn stars etc etc. Have you ever talked to any of these people ? In an ideal world they might have better options. I think it comes to that 'free will' again. Damaged people making bad choices. There is no true 'free will' in any of it, so why everyone is sent into the world, to be damaged and make bad choices, and be sent to hell for the privilege is a mystery to me. Where did all that damaging begin ? Christianity blamed Eve for the fall from Eden. You are blaming women for for seducing men to sin and send themselves to hell. I don't see much difference there Hasan. Demand and supply. Maybe if we all grew up in perfectly loving environments, we'd never have to make bad choices that hurt ourselves and others. Isn't that why we are here in this world. To learn to meaning of loving perfectly. Our selves and others. Those seriously lacking in love of self are usually the kind you'll find on the covers of magazines and other places. We need to try and understand what that is all about I think and that's where we have to 'go back' to realising and understanding where the 'damage' began. Or maybe it is just a numbers game. More women in world than men, so more women in hell than men. Btw, I have never 'blamed Eve' for anything. You assume too much my friend. I am not sure what I believe. And it's 'arguments' like this that make me even more confused ;-) "You may be unaware of teachings of your own Bible. In case, let me tell you that those, according to the Bible, who cause others to sin have sinned and deserve punishment: Matthew 18:6 "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." The bible is not mine. And this is exactly the point I am trying to make. So, the 'little ones' are the men, who create environments where women are degraded/abused and made to sin ? If all children are innocent - then every adult, including parents, who damage that child in ANY way, causing him/her to sin later, should have millstones around their necks. Again, where does all the damaging begin ? What about the 'little ones' who were once little girls, conditioned, socialised, whatever terms you care to use, to believe that all they had of any value in themselves was their 'sex'. I think, from what I have read so far, that ideally, IDEALLY, Islam does seek to treat women with utmost respect. I may be wrong. So does Christianity. At least the 'version' of it I was raised with. Ideally of course. However, we do not live in an ideal world. And Muslim societies, like Christian ones, are far from ideal. I have seen evidence of that for myself of late. Woman beats the children. The man beats the woman. All cause he was so screwed up with a fundamentalist view of his 'religion,' he lived a life based on a serious untruth. She found out, the poor girl, and it was of course, according to the man, all her fault. She didn't 'love' him enough, wasn't docile enough. Disaster zone, and all cause of some fundamentalist tripe. Sorry, but that's what a lot of the 'interpretations' of these things, in all these religions, by men most often, really are, tripe. 'Head the balls' creating more 'head the balls'. This claim is based on a hadith. That more women than men are in hell ? What if this hadith is wrong ? I've read a few other 'hadith' that seem, at the very least dubious. It's a little more complicated than blaming Eve. I am sure there is ample 'scientific' evidence out there, outside the Qu'ran or the Bible, to back that up. As you would seem to suggest, blame Adam and Eve. Or better still - go to the real source, blame God. He 'created' the mess to begin with, making us all 'weak'. Who knows Hasan. One day at a time, one person at a time is as much as I can deal with these days. Society is going to hell it seems. We need to try and understand why, and not scapegoat those who are perhaps most vulnerable. God bless Back next year ;-) lol Might be interesting to get the perspectives of females here on this one. Do you believe that more of your gender go to hell, and if so, why is that ? |
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 6:51am
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One difference is that Muslims punish the sinner themselves and Christians leave the punishment up to GOD.
IF I were a Muslim I would steer clear of hadith-manmade and questionable. Follow the Quran only if you must be a Muslim!!! ------------- John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. |
Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 8:26am
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Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 8:45am
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Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 10:13am
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Assalamu alaikum. Gulliver posted:However, we do not live in an ideal world. And Muslim societies, like Christian ones, are far from ideal. Response: You are right. I get marveled and frightened to see a Christian committing sin. Any body who took the pains of reading the OT and NT carefully and commits sinful acts, definitely has not read the Bible. If he has read it, he does not believe in it. As for the Muslims they believed in what they accused the Christians believed in: Vicarious atonement of sin. Another sin the Muslims commit is attributing wickedness to Allah. They see evil and fail to remove it. They would say, if Allah has Willed He could have given them the power and means of removing it. They would quote chapter 3:26 in their defense. Friendship. |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 10:17am
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Assalamu alaikum. Nothing: Will you kindly tell the under which subject matter was the hadith in which the Prophet said, �I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women,�" is quoted in Bukhari vol.4:464 p.305. My hadith book of Bukhari is the Arabic one with commentary.
Friendship. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 4:49am
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"They see evil and fail to remove it." Am not getting into this today folks. I agree with this Friendship. Stood out. I suppose this encapsulates what I am trying to say, in a few words. We 'see evil' - we must try, by whatever means we are given, to 'remove it'. Saying that everything is 'God's will,' to the degree we stick our heads in the sand, and act like there is not a real problem - seeking every means to solve that problem, is something that affects all religions. Been dealing a lot with victims and survivors of sexual abuse the last while. I see many, many people having suffered serious 'spiritual abuse' too. When a person in a position of spiritual power is responsible, it adds another dimension. It's horrific, what happens to people's lives. Destroyed. Many end up dead. I seriously wonder whom God will look to as the murderer of the innocent. Cause that is what they are, murderers. Like giving an innocent a gun, teaching him/her to 'play' with it, and wonder why they end up shot in the head. But even the 'murderers' may have a history too. Patterns repeating. Where does it all begin and end. I have no idea. The levels of denial at all levels of society are mind boggling. Seriously depressing even. When spiritual 'institutions' have too much power in a society, it is as - and even at times more dangerous than they having no 'control' at all. Again - it's in all 'religions'. Anyway, sorry for the rant. It is a very complex issue - all of this, I know. It's not a Christian or Muslim of Jewish issue. It's a human issue. Sometimes I seriously wonder why people worry about some 'afterlife' hell, when for many this world is 'hell'. As a friend once said, "you'll never get to Heaven walking backwards out of hell." If the love of God does not draw us Heavenward, nothing will. God bless folks. |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 12:39pm
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Assalamu alaikum. Gulliver posted: We 'see evil' - we must try, by whatever means we are given, to 'remove it'. Saying that everything is 'God's will,' to the degree we stick our heads in the sand, and act like there is not a real problem - seeking every means to solve that problem, is something that affects all religions. Response: Gulliver thanks very much for your understanding and Jihad in telling the truth and nothing else but the truth. You do not have to read the holy Qur'an. What is more important for you is to read the history of Muhammad Rasulullah, because that was what brought peace to Madina. Muhammad never considered himself and his teaching outside the OT and NT.The first thing he did after the Hijra- his arrival in Madina- was to enact an edict or a covenant binding on all the people of Madina mentioning the different 16 tribes of the Children of Israel that no one is to harbour a criminal and that it is an act of treachry to harbor a criminal. All people must rise their hands against crime! Every one must abide by his Religion (Ad-DIN) I am sorry to say that a lot is xpected from the followers of Muhammad in solving some if not the problems we are facing. This is not the case. The people of the OT and NT must be proud of the guidelines and way of life Revealed to them by Allah our Creator, in practice. Religion (AD-DIN) began from the book of Genesis. Its application is enough to bring peace and prosperity in the world. So the ball now is in the hands of the People of the Book and not in the hands of the followers of Muhammad. Please try to understand that Muhammad first of all established a security zone in Madina for all its inhabitans and not for his followers alone, who at that time where the minority. There is no such security zone in the Muslim countries. So what do you expct at the international level? Friendship. |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 December 2008 at 5:52pm
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Gulliver said :
Sometimes I seriously wonder why people worry about some 'afterlife' hell, when for many this world is 'hell'.
A muslim, always worries of after life, since that's the final abode. He never takes up the worries of this world as "hell", at all. He takes it as trial from Allah swt, as Allah swt, already did reveal it. Even if a believer assumes his suffering as hell {out of his weak faith}, its a duty of other believers to remind him the sayings of Allah swt.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 19 December 2008 at 8:36pm
Honestly Friendship I don't have the hadiths book of Bukhari or Muslims. I have only much smaller hadiths book as a compilation of major hadiths known as Mishkat Al Masabih.
I looked at the hadith online and I could not find the hadith that I quoted earlier also. Beside it was not word for word verbatim. Most likely I read it from one of the books that I have read. Same as the known "He who knows himself knows his Lord" also I read it from one of those books. If you read the Muhammad haykal "Biography of Muhammad" you will definitely read quite few of those. But once I spot it I will let you know.
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 20 December 2008 at 3:29am
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How can you have peace in your soul if you are 'worrying' about the 'afterlife'. Your 'heaven' or 'hell' begin here. And there is a danger that to accept all suffering complacently as 'the will of God,' prevents us from doing what God may truly 'will' - get up and do something to change the state of affairs for ourselves, and others. Discernment is important too. What might God truly desire in the situation. Surely, if God were truly Good and Compassionate, which I believe God to be, then the HOPE of the 'afterlife' - 'heaven' would bring a kind of solace in suffering that has to be endured for whatever reasons, and faith, the courage, strength and perseverance to do all to change whatever creates that kind of suffering in a society. __________________________________________________ In Islam it is believed we are tested through the trials and sufferings of life. As someone once said, "a faith not truly tested is no faith at all." In Christianity. Well in Catholicism anyway. The 'traditional' Catholicism. The obedience of Jesus is perfected through suffering. Or 'testing,' in another context. We are called to follow this. Take up your cross and come follow me. I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Way, Truth and Life are complete submission to God's will. Redemption, new and truly spiritual life comes through our obedience to God being made 'perfect'. Our love of God is perfected when we desire nothing for ourselves, death to self, and long for and accept only the will of God, in the belief and ultimate knowledge that it is the way to the Kingdom on earth, as it is in Heaven. The Catholic Mass is about people making themselves 'present' with Jesus on the Cross, an offering of will and life, suffering and death in complete submission to God's will. Believing that through that complete and utter submission - we will know and realise complete and whole redemption - the way to 'Heaven' 'Jannah'. It is very difficult and a constant battle. The inner Jihad. The 'greater jihad'. But I believe it to be true, even we do go through long periods at times, of 'dark' faith. It is faith alone that gets us through that 'dark'ness. A darkness that can seem at times like a non belief in God. When it comes to seeking complete submission to the will of God in ALL things - we all have more in common than we all realise, I think. These are very rushed thoughts here Seeks and not very clear. God bless |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 3:28am
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Assalamu alaikum. Nothing posted: Honestly Friendship I don't have the hadiths book of Bukhari or Muslims. I have only much smaller hadiths book as a compilation of major hadiths known as Mishkat Al Masabih. Response: I asked you about the reference not because I have never heard of the hadith, but because I want follow the ethics of learning Islamic knowledge. First of all understand the explanation by Allah, then Muhammad Rasulullah, then the Sahabas, then their pupils up to our time. Then one makes up his mind. As I said, we translate the hadith literally on its face value, but not according to its Shari'a meaning. We have already discussed on it. I have also Mishkat and I find it to be a useful book. Friendship |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 5:04am
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Assalamu alaikum. Gulliver posted: When it comes to seeking complete submission to the will of God in ALL things - we all have more in common than we all realise, I think. Response: Gulliver, we are in the 21st century. Let us be frank, honest, rational, empirical and fear Allah. If I were to ask the followers of Muhammad to show me the Qur'an used by Muhammad Rasulullah to bring about peace in Madina (i.e the covenant he undertook with the people of Madina), they will accuse me of blasphemy and make the shedding of my blood legal! But the teaching of Muhammad allowed one to ask questions to clear all doubts and confusions in his mind. YES WE HAVE MORE IN COMMON THAN WE REALISE! Gulliver let us start from the creation of Adam and walk through the Messengers of Allah. 1. Adam was a batchelor and then got married. He had children. The pious one's were commanded not to mix the unpious ones. What did Muhamamd command? 2. Noah. Only the righteous were saved by Allah from His punishment whcih came to them when they refused to obey the Messenger of Allah Noah. Allah said in Genesis, "The Lord saw how bad the pople on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. Cruelty and violence have spread everywhere". What did Allah tell Muhammad in Qur'an 30:41? So, Allah will not destroy the followers of Muhammad? He was described as walking with God. Muhamamd was said to have offered this prayer, "Allah make me not live a second without Your Company". 3. Abraham. What of his covenant of circumcission? They said Muhammad was circumcissed at birth? What of his followers? He called his children to worship One Allah only! Did any of his children contravined his call? 4. Isaac. Was sent away because he was hated by the Philistines on account of the blessing Allah gave him. In the long run they said to Isaac, "We know for certain that the Lord is with you, and we have decided there needs to be a peace treaty between you and us. So let us make a solemn agreement not to harm each other". Now what did Allah command Muhammad to do in such circumstances? To organize suicide bombing? Let us be realistic, Are the Jews not more inclined to peace? 5. Ishmael. Who built the Ka'ba? So Allah commanded Muhammad to demolish the Ka'ba and never to pray there? 6. Jacob. He called his children to worship the Allah of Abraham, Isaac. 7. Joseph. About knowledge, Joseph said, "Doesn't God know the meaning of dream? He also said, "I can't do it myself, but God can give a good meaning to your dreams"? What was the source of the Qur'an? Has Allah allowed the followers of Muhammad to say something without His (Allah's) permission? Are the followers of Muhammad more knowledgable than Allah and Muhammad? 8. Moses. He was given the Ten commandment. did Allah contravined to Muhammad what He gave to Moses? To commit murder/ To steal? To tell lies? To want something that belongs to somone else? Be unfaithful in marriage? Disrespect parents or to worship power and wealth? 9. From Moses to John and Zachariah, did Allah contravine the ten commandment? 10. What did Jesus say and command? I am sure Gulliver you understood what I mean or trying to understand. I find it very difficult to understand what mankind want? Is this recession and the way the world is treating George Walker Bush not a lesson to us that we have to go back to Allah? Was the choice of Muhammad Rasulullah as political and spiritual leader by the peole of Madina not based on what was in the OT and NT?. Gulliver request the followers of Muhammad to explain to you logically and empirically the meaning of the haidth, "The people are like one hundred camels in the midst of which you will seldom find one fit for riding" Ref Mishkat: chapter later days and time. Friendship. |
Posted By: Hyposonic
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 5:26pm
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Friendship you said:
This is contradictory. First, Muslims according to some hadith reports consider all human beings as they are born spiritually Muslim. Second, even if you weren�t born you convert so in this case is there some significance between born and converting?
What if you sincerely have come to the conclusion that you are not interested [spiritually] in the message of Islam and what if you desire another faith? Or what if you had bad experiences in a Muslim country and this leads to your rejection of Islam in its entirety? I don�t think just because one desires to leave Islam that person necessarily misunderstands Islam it could also be due to encounters with other Muslims or how it is practiced.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=54219&FID=7 - seekshidayath said:
This grammatically doesn�t make sense ------------- "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 1:18am
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Assalamu alaikum. Wishing you happy X-mas and happy New Year. Hyposonic posted: This is contradictory. First, Muslims according to some hadith reports consider all human beings as they are born spiritually Muslim. Response: Remember that those above 20 years of age after the Exodus where the one's punished by Allah for refusing to obey Prophet Moses. The fate of those under 20 years of age who did not obey him but died was not told to us by the Children of Israel. Now Muhammad Rasulullah told us their fate that they were Muslims, because they were not matured enough to be held accountable for their deeds. Now if the Children of Israel will deny this explanation, they have to tell us the fate of those who died unmatured. Today, the age is reduced to a maximum of 15 years right across the spectrum. If a children born to an Israel woman died today, before he reached 15 years of age he ill enter Paradise. If a child born to a Muslim died today before he got matured he will enter Paradise. But anyone who died today after reaching the adult age will have to give account of his deeds. He will be asked who is Allah and who is Muhammad. If his deeds have measured to the scale, he will enter Paradise, other wise he will be thrown into hell headlong forever. The partition is: freedom from enslavement, maturity and sense. Note that you are indeed a Muslim not a Christian as I explained in many of my posts. 11) What if you sincerely have come to the conclusion that you are not interested [spiritually] in the message of Islam. Response: This is hypothetical/ theoretical and in Islam we do not deal with hypothesis. We deal with WAQI'A, that is things that are real and positive. 111) and what if you desire another faith? Response: You are being deceived by the ignorant followers of Muhammad Rasulullah who do not understand the Will Plan and Decree of Allah. There is only one way one can worship Allah and that is through submission voluntarily or unvoluntarily. This is ISLAM right from the beginning of inorganic creation as stated by Angela 14.5 billion years ago. In Genesis Enoch (called Idris by Muhammad) walked with God before he got Methuselah and also after he got Methuselah. Reverend Matthew Henry called this True Religion: to live a life of communion with God both in ordinances and providences. It is to make God's word our rule and his glory our end in all our actions. It is to make it our constant care and endeavour in everything to please God and nothing to offend him. It is to comply with all his will and to concur with his designs and to be workers together with him. 111) Or what if you had bad experiences in a Muslim country and this leads to your rejection of Islam in its entirety? Response: Empirically, I never had this experience. In the Book of Genesis, the children of Abel were forbidden to mix with the children of Cain! Are telling me that Muhammad ordered the contrary? I can give you so many instances where the Muslims following the Islam before Muhammad expressed their desire with me to know more about what Muhammad taught and said. As I said, earlier try to get the book written by Suzanne Haneefa an American lady wrote about Islam and Muslims. Read the explanation and commentary of the holy Qur'an, the life of Muhammad and his immediate followers. Forget about the suicide bombers and their corrupt regimes and incompetent scholars. If you understood that the door of repentance is widely opened to you and that there would be no peace in the world unless you enter that door and live in the building, you should do that now. Friendship. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 2:45am
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Friendship !!! I am appalled. You took the Christ out of 'Christmas'. Shame on you ! The 'unbelievers' have managed to take the spirit out of Christmas well enough, without 'believers' now seeking to do the same. Christ mas is supposed to be a time that reminds us of God's love - peace on earth and goodwill to ALL men, and women. That's what Islam is about too - Peace and Good will ? :-) |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 12:23pm
If the ratio of women to men here on planet earth is larger, then it is only logical that the ratio of women to men in hell would also be larger.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/implications.asp - http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/implications.asp http://www.census.gov/population/pop-profile/2000/chap20.pdf - http://www.census.gov/population/pop-profile/2000/chap20.pdf Go to this site and check out the ratio of women to men in every country. You will see that most of them are larger. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ - http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ To start with, the Hadith does not say that most women are in hell. It says that the majority of hell dwellers are women, which simply signifies that more women fail in this worldly test than men. Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, points out their failure, which is not based on denying God. Rather, it is denying kindness, particularly in marital situations. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has pointed this out in more than one Hadith, warning women against grumbling and frequent complaints. He is also warning them here against denying kindness by their husbands, highlighting a failing that is often expressed in denying past kindness. The Hadith shows that women can easily avoid such a destiny by being fair and appreciative of kindness. They should always be grateful to God for what He has given them and also be appreciative of any kindness done to them by others, particularly those with whom they live, be they their husbands, parents or other relatives. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 3:32pm
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"True Religion: to live a life of communion with God both in ordinances and providences. It is to make God's word our rule and his glory our end in all our actions. It is to make it our constant care and endeavour in everything to please God and nothing to offend him. It is to comply with all his will and to concur with his designs and to be workers together with him." Beautifully said. To live a life such as this. :-) I pray for it, aspire to it, but need a stronger faith to believe it will come to pass - one day, Inch 'Allah. |
Posted By: Hyposonic
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 5:17pm
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Friendship said:
Response: Remember that those above 20 years of age after the Exodus where the one's punished by Allah for refusing to obey Prophet Moses. The fate of those under 20 years of age who did not obey him but died was not told to us by the Children of Israel. Now Muhammad Rasulullah told us their fate that they were Muslims, because they were not matured enough to be held accountable for their deeds. Now if the Children of Israel will deny this explanation, they have to tell us the fate of those who died unmatured.
Ok Two things. One the "children of Israel" were muslism by Quranic standards not hisrotically muslim so as far as them not listening to Allah I'm sure you generated that opinion from your doctrine. Second. Maturity in age has nothing to do with knowledge and understanding. Truly understanding something contained in a book doesn't require for you to be 20 or under 20 with the proper teaching and understanding. After all, there are chilsdren who memorize the Qur'an at an early age.
As far as the decleration of my faith I've never claimed nor consciously accepted the tenents of the Islamic faith so I don't know where you are gettin that I'm Muslim.
Response: This is hypothetical/ theoretical and in Islam we do not deal with hypothesis. We deal with WAQI'A, that is things that are real and positive.
A laughable cop-out. So I guess apostates don't exist in Islam and I guess there are those who truly do not accept the message of Islam after coming to know it?
You are being deceived by the ignorant followers of Muhammad Rasulullah who do not understand the Will Plan and Decree of Allah.
Are you denying that one could possibly desire another faith other than Islam?
Empirically, I never had this experience
What about those other than you that have had these bad experiences?
------------- "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 5:49pm
JazakAllahu khayr brother Mansoor. Had been searching for these links but in vain. Allah swt knows the best but i think, this is a perfect answer. Hyposonic and Gulliver, hope its clear for you now.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Hyposonic
Date Posted: 23 December 2008 at 7:56pm
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Wow is it that serious to discuss whether the ratio of women to men in hell is important? I wonder what women think about this conversation. ------------- "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 24 December 2008 at 2:34am
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". Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, points out their failure, which is not based on denying God. Rather, it is denying kindness, particularly in marital situations. The Prophet, peace be upon him, has pointed this out in more than one Hadith, warning women against grumbling and frequent complaints. He is also warning them here against denying kindness by their husbands, highlighting a failing that is often expressed in denying past kindness." Sorry. I don't buy this. This has sexism all over it. Borderline misogynistic. If the women, or the men are that unhappy, you'd think to suggest they look at the real reasons why they are unhappy, than damn all n' sundry to hell. I don't believe any of this, not for one cock-a-mame instant. They don't 'deny God'. Therefore they SHOULD go to Paradise. They just complain that their husbands might be useless gulpins, as we say here, and are sent to hell for telling the truth. Something seriously skew whiff about that 'logic'. I get the impression that Muhammad's wives did a bit of complaining amongst themselves - and this is just a case of 'projection' ? |
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 24 December 2008 at 11:32am
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Assalamu alaikum. Gulliver posted:
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Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 24 December 2008 at 12:11pm
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Assalamu alaikum. Hyposonic posted: Truly understanding something contained in a book doesn't require for you to be 20 or under 20 with the proper teaching and understanding. Response: I do not expect a Scottish to be making such statement. I was made to understand that Scottish were more intelligent than the rest of British people. I could have studied in Edinburgh if not because of its severe cold. Why then were the Children of Israel under 20 years, the ones who saw the Promised land? I need an explanation. Now in the teaching of Muhammad no one is held responsible until he is matured, free, and sensible (able differentiate betwen good and bad). Memorizing the Qur'an at an early age is insignificant. What is binding on any Muslim is only to understand 600 verses of the Qur'an. The rest of 5600 verses are for mundane life. There is great difference between memorizing and understanding. Please do not encourage suicide bombings because those involved in suicide bombings have memorized the holy Qur'an without understanding the contents. 11) As far as the decleration of my faith I've
never claimed nor consciously accepted the tenents of the Islamic faith
so I don't know where you are gettin that I'm Muslim. Response: You will know that you are a Muslim (Islamic Faith) when you stand infront of Allah on the Day of Judgment. At that moment you will confess, but it will be too late! I think it is an honour to call one a Muslim if at all he believed in the Allah worshipped by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. 111) So I guess apostates don't exist in Islam and I guess there are those who truly do not accept the message of Islam after coming to know it?. Response: That is your problem. There is no guess work in the teaching of Muhammad Rasulullah. Everything is governed by certainty!
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Posted By: Hyposonic
Date Posted: 24 December 2008 at 4:40pm
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Response: I do not expect a Scottish to be making such statement. I was made to understand that Scottish were more intelligent than the rest of British people. I could have studied in Edinburgh if not because of its severe cold. Why then were the Children of Israel under 20 years, the ones who saw the Promised land? I need an explanation.
What can I say to the above bold except reply with the same idiocy as the individual. First, what makes you think I�m truly from
If this is true then why do madrasas teach young Muslim children to memorize the Qur�an in its entirety?
I think it�s an honor that you appropriately address what I consider my self to be. As far as I�m concerned, this website and the adherents of the Muslim faith has not impressed me. You have one [sign Reader] who uses profane epithets. You have other Muslims judging others on the basis of their religion. You have other Muslims whom I�ve read in silent fashion giving off incorrect medical advice here. Need I continue? If I do not believe nor accept the existence of previous prophets as contained in the Qur�an or in bible/Judaic scriptures why would I consider it an offer to be associated with them?
Whatever you say. Denial in this manner is almost as bad as believing people will live forever.
Again. Having read the scriptures I�m not sure those events happened. There is no historical evidence that the seas even split when the pharaoh crossed!
------------- "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" |
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 24 December 2008 at 6:17pm
Yes, hyposonic, this discussion is n't serious but made serious. Its not an important issue to worry about, be it women in Islam. But few people potray it as, look how Islam injustifies women, They are destined to hell ---. What women think of this -- Well, women in Islam, do take it negatively. Infact they try to overcome the deficiencies, identified in the hadith. Like, being ungrateful -- etc. But again, its not a big issue, as made up.
------------- Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent." |
Posted By: Adam192
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 6:27pm
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"The Prophet said, �I looked at Paradise and found poor people forming the majority of its inhabitants; and I looked at Hell and saw that the majority of its inhabitants were women.�" Bukhari vol.4:464 p.305."
well Gulliver, this is more of a statement then a racial or sexist remark. If I were to say that most of the inhabitants of our prison system are of a specific race or sex, would that be racist or sexist? Adam |
Posted By: sokratiz zen
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 4:58am
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DEAR SILVER ARROW
SALAM!
Narrated Abu Qilaba
"By Allah, Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.
BUKHARI Volume 9, Book 83, Number 37
You will notice that the apostate is not killed for leaving Islam for whatever religion he chooses; but it was because he switched to another camp who is at war with the Prophet. A mere change of belief cannot be a rational and just ground to kill a fellow human being.
I am really saddened and afraid of Muslims who are wanting of critical thinking. The lack of Critical Thinking (Quran 2;111) is extremely dangerous. "Man never do evil so completely and cheerfully", says Pascal, "as when they do it from religious conviction."
There is the video of muslim extremist here in the Philippines and I personally confirm how my fellow Filipino muslims "do evil so completely and cheerfully" in the name of Allah. Devoid of Critical Thinking and intoxicated by a strong religious conviction, they felt justified chopping off the head of Christian soldiers. Review you midieval history and know how both Christians and Muslims felt so justified to kill one another.
In an age where some few Muslims are grabbibing the attention of mass media and unfairly describes Islam as inherently violent --- deserves a second thought and a profound soul searching among us. If there is anything that we muslims need nowadays to remain in the right path, it is the Quran 2:111. It is The verse on Critical Thinking. In response to anyone who assert something as true, Allah advised the Prophet and all of us to:
"Produce your (scientific or logical) proof
If you are really telling the truth"
This verse is an open challenge and an invitation to us to critically examine any statements or injunctions before we swallow and act upon them. (Under the strong religious conviction) I want you to know also that all religions, except Buddhism, has the share in the history of violence against fellow human beings. However, it was not the fault of the scripture per se; it was because critical thinking is wanting in the faithfuls. I want to believe that the Quran (or any scripture ) is incomplete without Critical Thinking. There are good Hadiths and Verses from the Quran that highlights the value of Faith and Reason. The Quran and Critical Thinking can never be separated. Take away one from the other, and you will find yourself in both extremes.
Quran 2:111 is the verse for the intelligents. I invite my muslim brethren to anchor our Islamic Faith on this verse. Let us develop the habit of Skepticism. Always doubting and examining the rationality of the intepretations and applications of the Quran and Hadiths.
I wish you the best in your search for the Path.
Your brother in Islam,
Sokratis Zen
(For your complete Hadith research please visit this website and exercise your critical thinking http://www.khayma.com/Uzkurallah/English2/hadith/hadith2.htm - http://www.khayma.com/Uzkurallah/English2/hadith/hadith2.htm
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Posted By: owen.grandison
Date Posted: 03 March 2009 at 1:27pm
| These people have every right as a human being to leave any religion if they are not happy with it because the qur'aan says: "when truth has arrived, and falsehood perished" (qur'aan 17:81), so if they were wrong by leaving and disagreeing with the religion and talking to other people about their disagreement with it then it would be perceived as falsehood according to islam, they would have perished by the will of allah, not your murderous assassinations. If these people are wrong or liars, don't you believe that allah would have mad that known eventually, without you killing or attempting to kill them with your human hands? Where was your allah then? |
Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 03 March 2009 at 1:50pm
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Dear Owen.Grandison, During early of Prophet Muhammad's prophet hood, it's a war time, somebody who quit from Islam, that's meant they would joint the "Qurays's troop" try to kill Prophet Muhammad and his follower and destroy "young Islam".This days, this will not apply, you can come and go to Islam as you please, nobody will bother you.
Of course we believe that people will not come to Islam genuinely without a guide or inspiration from Allah, they will not easily to leave Islam. So we consider the peoples the lucky ones. That's why in our prayer we always ask Allah to strengthen our faith, to keep Islam in our heart. Because without his guidance and help from Allah, Islam can disappear from our heart. ------------- Salam/Peace, Semar "We are people who do not eat until we are hungry and do not eat to our fill." (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) "1/3 of your stomach for food, 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air" |
Posted By: BelieverInOne
Date Posted: 03 March 2009 at 4:36pm
Assalaam alaikum
Isn't someone who leaves Islam an apostate?
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Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 04 March 2009 at 12:01pm
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Assalamu alikum.
Sokratiz zen posted: I am really saddened and afraid of Muslims who are wanting of critical thinking. The lack of Critical Thinking (Quran 2;111) is extremely dangerous. "Man never do evil so completely and cheerfully", says Pascal, "as when they do it from religious conviction.
Response: You are quite right. I hope you know the reason. That portion of the Qur'an is not taught in the universities. I mean the Sunna of Muhammad Rasulullah. The sciences we learn in the Universities are taught as if they have no root or relation with what Allah revealed in the Qur'an.
Fiendship.
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Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 05 March 2009 at 7:21am
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