The Great Jihad ?
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Topic: The Great Jihad ?
Posted By: Gulliver
Subject: The Great Jihad ?
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 11:08am
Replies:
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 7:30am
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From Gulliver:
I was looking for something online today and came across this 'sermon' which is good I thought. Considering it's Ramadan, and it's a perspective from the Christian tradition, I thought it interesting, and it does apply to each and every one of us.
I am living through this as we speak, for about the trillionth time. As I bet most of you are :-) Yeah, it's painful.
"I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other 'gods' before Me".
I am reminded of a poem - "The Hound of Heaven".
The Blessedness of Posessing Nothing
Before the Lord God made man upon the earth He first prepared for him by creating a world of useful and pleasant things for his sustenance and delight. In the Genesis account of the creation these are called simply `things.' They were made for man's uses, but they were meant always to be external to the man and subservient to him. In the deep heart of the man was a shrine where none but God was worthy to come. Within him was God; without, a thousand gifts which God had showered upon him.
But sin has introduced complications and has made those very gifts of God a potential source of ruin to the soul. Our woes began when God was forced out of His central shrine and `things' were allowed to enter. Within the human heart `things' have taken over. Men have now by nature no peace within their hearts, for God is crowned there no longer, but there in the moral dusk stubborn and aggressive usurpers fight among themselves for first place on the throne. This is not a mere metaphor, but an accurate analysis of our real spiritual trouble. There is within the human heart a tough fibrous root of fallen life whose nature is to possess, always to possess. It covets `things' with a deep and fierce passion. The pronouns `my' and `mine' look innocent enough in print, but their constant and universal use is significant. They express the real nature of the old Adamic man better than a thousand volumes of theology could do. They are verbal symptoms of our deep disease. The roots of our hearts have grown down into things, and we dare not pull up one rootlet lest we die. Things have become necessary to us, a development never originally intended. God's gifts now take the place of God, and the whole course of nature is upset by the monstrous substitution. Our Lord referred to this tyranny of things when He said to His disciples, `If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.' (Matt. 16:24-25). Breaking this truth into fragments for our better understanding, it would seem that there is within each of us an enemy which we tolerate at our peril. Jesus called it `life' and `self,' or as we would say, the self-life. Its chief characteristic is its possessiveness: the words `gain' and `profit' suggest this. To allow this enemy to live is in the end to lose everything. To repudiate it and give up all for Christ's sake is to lose nothing at last, but to preserve everything unto life eternal. And possibly also a hint is given here as to the only effective way to destroy this foe: it is by the Cross: `Let him take up his cross and follow me.' The way to deeper knowledge of God is through the lonely valleys of soul poverty and abnegation of all things. The blessed ones who possess the Kingdom are they who have repudiated every external thing and have rooted from their hearts all sense of possessing. They are `poor in spirit.' They have reached an inward state paralleling the outward circumstances of the common beggar in the streets of Jerusalem; that is what the word `poor' as Christ used it actually means. These blessed poor are no longer slaves to the tyranny of things. They have broken the yoke of the oppressor; and this they have done not by fighting but by surrendering. Though free from all sense of possessing, they yet possess all things. `Theirs is the kingdom of heaven.' Let me exhort you to take this seriously. It is not to be understood as mere Bible teaching to be stored away in the mind along with an inert mass of other doctrines. It is a marker on the road to greener pastures, a path chiseled against the steep sides of the mount of God. We dare not try to by-pass it if we would follow on in this holy pursuit. We must ascend a step at a time. If we refuse one step we bring our progress to an end. As is frequently true, this New Testament principle of spiritual life finds its best illustration in the Old Testament. In the story of Abraham and Isaac we have a dramatic picture of the surrendered life as well as an excellent commentary on the first Beatitude. Abraham was old when Isaac was born, old enough indeed to have been his grandfather, and the child became at once the delight and idol of his heart. From that moment when he first stooped to take the tiny form awkwardly in his arms he was an eager love slave of his son. God went out of His way to comment on the strength of this affection. And it is not hard to understand. The baby represented everything sacred to his father's heart: the promises of God, the covenants, the hopes of the years and the long messianic dream. As he watched him grow from babyhood to young manhood the heart of the old man was knit closer and closer with the life of his son, till at last the relationship bordered upon the perilous. It was then that God stepped in to save both father and son from the consequences of an uncleansed love. `Take now thy son,' said God to Abraham, `thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Gen 22:2) The sacred writer spares us a close-up of the agony that night on the slopes near Beersheba when the aged man had it out with his God, but respectful imagination may view in awe the bent form and convulsive wrestling alone under the stars. Possibly not again until a Greater than Abraham wrestled in the Garden of Gethsemane did such mortal pain visit a human soul. If only the man himself might have been allowed to die. That would have been easier a thousand times, for he was old now, and to die would have been no great ordeal for one who had walked so long with God. Besides, it would have been a last sweet pleasure to let his dimming vision rest upon the figure of his stalwart son who would live to carry on the Abrahamic line and fulfill in himself the promises of God made long before in Ur of the Chaldees. It is a long post, I carefully followed it upto some paras. It is wonderful. I do not know how it will end. But the initial part, in black, seems quite good. Permit me to praise that. Thanks. until I read all of it. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 12:59pm
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Let me know minuteman :-)
I don't know what the Islamic understanding of the story of Abraham and Isaac is. I must have a look. Am I wrong in thinking this is akin to the 'great jihad' - where we seek to give God back his 'throne' in the heart ? Might use different language perhaps - but a similar concept.
'The human heart was made for Thee of Lord, and will not rest till it rests in Thee.'
God bless
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 1:08pm
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I just had a look. I think I have strayed into very deep water. The Isaac/Ishmael controversy. I have no idead about any of that and cannot comment. I thought the idea of God's having possession of the heart though a sprituality reality - whatever the context of the story. That's what appealed to me.
God bless
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 6:34pm
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I think this story is one of the most repugnant in the Bible, second only to the the story of Job. Here is wisdom. If you ever hear a voice speaking to you, claiming to be God and urging you to kill an innocent person, say: "You are not God, you are Satan. You are a liar and I will not obey you." Any other response is madness. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
`Take now thy son,' said God to Abraham, `thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' (Gen 22:2)Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 20 September 2008 at 1:35am
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I thought you were an 'atheist' Ron.
Telling someone to reply to satan. lol
I don't know where I am with all of this, if anywhere to be honest. Maybe it's the 'dark night' of 'faith' - or maybe I need locking up ;-) Indeed, if I heard a voice telling me to kill an innocent person, I'd hope I'd do more than tell satan to take a hike.
I think the message of the story is, 'poverty of spirit'.
You're an intelligent person Ron. I think you may have your own perspectives on what that may or may not mean, and how it may or may not apply to your own life. I don't take these stories literally.
There is a freedom of spirit in, 'possessing nothing'. When the heart is not attached to anything in particular, there is a freedom to love all, or aspire to. If I believe in God, which I think I do, I don't believe that same God is some tryrannical brute out to kill dead things. I can't believe in a God like that. I think whatever 'blasphemy' is - is just that. To call what is 'good' 'evil'.
I think it's all about perspective. We will 'see' what we want to 'see' - and that is coloured by life and experience. Or maybe we 'see' what we are ready to see. Sometimes it seems we go to 'hell' to 'see' the possibility of 'heaven'. I don't think you can rationalise or intellectualise faith, to the point you can make someone else 'believe'. We all journey through life, and we come to times of belief, dis belief and maybe belief again, maybe not. But on our death beds, as long as we remain somehow able to think, wonder. We may well wonder if this was it - all there is and who or what 'God' may or may not be. I've said this before somewhere. It's a terrible thing to be with some dying soul and them full of the, 'fear of hell'. Indeed, they may well have been better off believing nothing. Maybe it is all a clinging to some vague hope of something 'better' - just to get us through the (can't say the word) of this life.
Maybe there is a God, whom John, in the Christian 'gospel' says, 'is Love'. And everything is in some mysterious way an expression of that very Love. Or maybe we are all just one off entities who live and die and rot, having been capable of what seems the greatest 'good' and the greatest of 'evils' - and we make God in our own image.
But then someone said somewhere else, that what we consider 'good' is all relative too. Living a 'good life' is not 'good' enough. I don't see how a person can claim to believe in God, and that God is good, the source of goodness itself - and then claim that a 'good life' is not 'good enough'. Something just not right or 'good' about that somehow.
I too find the whole 'reward' system, in some aspects of 'theology', a bit confusing. Do I help others because I want to, feel they may be worthy of that help, or because God is going to give me a big party in the sky when it's all over or burn me in hell forever. Maybe I am a humanist. I wonder that a humanist is not the truest kind of Christian. They do it for the sake of doing - not for a reward in a hereafter. I don't think it's possible to 'love' or 'worship' God without loving our fellow human beings, indeed every created thing, or seeking to, as a professing 'believer'.
The 'great commandments' speak of seeking 'God' with all the heart, soul and mind. And to love the neighbour as the self. If 'self knowledge is a sure path to God' - then that's where the journey must take us, I'd imagine - within. Life teaches us that we are no different to any other human being on the planet, and we are all, every single one of us capable of the greatest 'good' and the greatest of 'evil's. Our 'redemption' is in there somewhere I think. Understanding this - that we are all the same - supposedly 'made in the image of God.' Not the other way around.
Have you ever seen the movie, "The Keys of the Kingdom," with Gregory Peck ? It's an interesting story. Peck is a priest sent to do missionary work in China - young, idealistic, naieve etc. How he meets with christian missionaries of other denominations,' and the way the relationships 'tween these develop and grow. Then he has a friend who'd gone on to become a doctor and who visits with him in China. He is an 'atheist' - but a 'good' man who devoted his life to caring for others in a professional capacity. He is shot I think, and as he is dying, he still cannot be dishonest and confess a 'belief' in 'God'. But somehow in that 'good life' and that honest 'confession' at his death - there is some sense of 'redemption'.
Fear of hell did not dominate his thinking or belief - not even in 'the end'. He lived honestly and died honestly. If there is a 'God', I wonder how God would 'judge' such a 'creature'.
If Peck's face is anything to go by, in the movie - then we have some sense of what that may or may not be. Maybe with his dying friend he is the very, 'image of God' - the compassionate God anyway - if that God exists.
Anyway, I am sure you've heard it all before. It's your life, your own journey to make Ron. Maybe some day when we are burning in hell forever and ever and ever amen, we can say, 'hello, you got a cigarette, am gaspin' " lol ;-) I don't think we need wait for a 'hereafter' to know of the possibilities of 'heaven' and 'hell'. Both are pretty evident here.
The journey continues.
I don't know Ron. I am not going to try and pretend I do know, have answers, cause I don't. I can't pretend I have the 'intellectual' capacity to 'prove' 'God' exists. I don't. I just have my own life, my own experience, and at this point my own belief that indeed God does exist - very much so. Even in 'hell'. Now there's a paradox for you. It's all about perspective methinks - and that changes with life. Like the humanist, and christian, and muslim and jew - the 'real' of these, actually believing in the 'same God'. "By their fruits you shall know them."
Or maybe that lil ol' adage of Buddy: "the world's so full of c.... why bother wipin' your as... !" LOL When I heard that first time I laughed till I cried. I wonder if Jesus or Muhammad would. I truly believe, given the 'context' they surely would. Bet they had days like that themselves - being truly human n' all that. Not sure you can be a real 'saint' if you haven't learned the process of being 'real'lly human. Again - it's all a big paradox.
Like I say, it's all a matter of perspective, I think.
Take care.
And may 'satan', as you seem to believe in him/it, take that hike and leave you well alone. lol
IF there is a God Ron. May that 'good' God bless you too ;-)
K
Sorry I can't get into very serious and intellectual arguments. I just don't have that ability. But we can all share a good laugh.
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 20 September 2008 at 4:16am
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PS
Thanks too Ron for your gentle reply. Shows me you too have a 'good' heart ;-) You did not claim to, 'believe' or 'know'. You just said, "I think." Considerate of the innocent and the harm that might be done him/her.
Maybe we're all coming from different perspectives, whether scientific or religious/spiritual - or both. Endeavouring to liberate our selves and others from many levels of that 'yoke' of 'ignorance'. Many colours make light white. Or is it white light.
That can only be a 'good' thing, I think. May the Force be with you.
K
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 11:56am
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I am craving to jump in in this interesting conversation and very interesting takes by all.
It is an important point, as the human sacrifice was the main reason given by the Catholics to kill or convert the civilizations of the Americas.
In my belief, Abraham's offering of his son as a sacrifice was never materialized. Thus there was no human sacrifice. It was only a Grand test of Faith for a prophet.
It may take a little effort to understand the whole thing.
In family oriented cultures around the world, in the east in particular, having sons and more sons is a sign of one's strenght, and wealth. They are adored and to be something proud of.
As we read that Prophet Abraham did not have any sons for the major part of his life. When God finally grant him a son, its hard to imaginehow much of a delight that son would have been for an old Abraham. Who would have taken every extra step to take care of him, protect him from harm, and most of all to love him the most. And at that time probably the most dear to Abraham was his only son.
I have lived in places where even to this day someone would love to death and charish that son as the most valuable possession in similar situation as that of Abraham.
Now we all go through tests and trails in this life, so did the prophets. In fact they because of their status as prophets go through much harder and bigger tests of faith.
Imagine to give something you love, is hard. Now imagine to give something you love the Most!
Abraham was also a man apart from being a prophet. To be asked to give away, sacrifice the one that was the most beloved to him must not be easy, the one who came in his life after so long and after so many prayers I am sure.
But as a man of faith, he did not seem to have second thoughts. Of cousre, God can take back anything He gives, but this was just a test of faith, nothing more. Abraham was successfull in this test. And God accepted his offereing by intendng to fulfillthe command, even though his son was never harmed at the end.
We don't have to worry about that kind of tests and commands as only prophets recieved such direct communications and commands from God. We, the followers of the prophets only follow what is revealed for us as a guide through them.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 12:36pm
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And in my belief, it was a test of faith that Abraham failed miserably. True faith, guided by intellect, should have recognized that such an evil command could only have come from Satan. Abraham ought to have known that. He ought to have refused to obey it. But then, a loving God would never have made such a demand in the first place. It's an ugly, immoral story that teaches blind obedience to a capricious, evil God. It should have no place in Holy Scripture. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 12:38pm
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Interesting Hasan.
"We don't have to worry about that kind of tests and commands as only prophets recieved such direct communications and commands from God. We, the followers of the prophets only follow what is revealed for us as a guide through them. "
We too are called to poverty of spirit Hasan. That God takes back his rightful throne in the heart. People are called every day to 'sacrifice' their dearest loved children. They don't have the benefit of direct communication with God to give consolation. They are left utterly bereft, desolate and wondering why why why. I think the lesson is to know that our hearts were made for God and will not rest till they rest in God. (Aquinas, I think). All created things pass away and with their passing we can be left desolate and lost. I think the lesson is that we must fix our heart on the eternal God - and when we are graced with this - we learn to love truly and accept all of God's gifts as they are intended. Even when they pass away or seem lost - God's has them in good keeping for us.
Like that poem I put up elsewhere - Hound of Heaven - the last verse....
Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest Me!
Strange, piteous, futile thing, Wherefore should any set thee love apart ?
Seeing none but I makes much of naught," He said, "And human love needs human meriting, How hast thou merited-- Of all man's clotted clay rhe dingiest clot? Alack, thou knowest not How little worthy of any love thou art ! Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee Save Me, save only Me? All which I took from thee I did but take, Not for thy harms. But just that thou might'st seek it in my arms. All which thy child's mistake Fancies as lost, I have stored for the at home; Rise, clasp My hand, and come!"
You can jump into any conversation Hasan :-) Good to get everyone's thoughts and points of view. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 2:08pm
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For Gulliver:
Please read chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 onward to at least verse 112. You will get some answer.
For Ron, the Atheist:
Please remember that Allah never told Abraham to sacrifice his son. You said if there was such a command then it was from satan. Perhaps you are right. I will checkup if it is the belief of the jews and the christians that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. That would be very bad for their religion only. ( I have checked up. It is the story of the bible OT and not the story of the Quran)
In Islam, there was no such command. The command was to sacrifice his best and most dear thing. Now understand please and your Satan will disappear soon. Can you see that there was no command to sacrifice his son.
Abraham complied by sacrificing camels etc. But he had the same vision again and again. So he thought over it and felt that the most dearest thing was his only son (ishmael) of old age. So he got ready to fulfil the vision. And he really got ready and tried to do it but was stopped just in time.
I hope it suits you now. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 2:23pm
Minuteman, this is from chapter 37 of the Qu'ran. It's clearly saying that Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son and when the son is protrate in readiness for sacrifice - God intervenes.
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 2:28pm
What does this mean ? Ransomed whom ?
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 5:56pm
Perhaps there are camels in minuteman's edition.
 Speaking of which, what's up with animal sacrifice anyway? Why does God have such a fondness for abusing animals? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 8:37pm
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For Ron:
There can be no end to your troubled thinking and your problems. When youhave no base to stand on then how can any one discuss with you. Discussion needs some belief and principles.
For Gulliver:
Yes, that is right, what you have written. But it may not be the very first vision. It may be a later final vision directing Abraham to the right knowledge.
So it was a vision which needed interpretation. But look at the bible telling Abraham to take his only son and sacrifice him on the alter. ------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 3:55am
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"May not," "might be". What are you afraid of really ackowledging here Minuteman ? It's black and white. Clearly God asks Abraham in a vision to sacrifice his son. His son is prostrate with his forehead to the ground. Get the impression something not nice is going to happen. And when Abraham is about to do the deed - God stops him ?
There are more details in the biblical account. But then most of the similar stories in the bible account have more details anyway.
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 6:09am
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Ron: Here is wisdom. If you ever hear a voice speaking to you, claiming to be God and urging you to kill an innocent person, say: "You are not God, you are Satan. You are a liar and I will not obey you." Abraham knew from where it was coming, for 100%. How? I do
not know. God knows how to make His prophet be sure about His message. A
prophet can not guide people if he can not distinguish between a God�s message
and a Satan�s message. Therefore, this must necessarily be one of the
characteristics of a prophet. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 4:34pm
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Ad hominem attacks are unworthy of you, minuteman.
That's a circular argument. (Fallacies are certainly getting a workout today!) You have to assume that God was somehow involved in order to say that He "made His prophet sure". Anyway, the bottom line is that it was an evil command. Either it did not come from God, or God is evil. And either way, it ought not to be obeyed. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 7:51pm
Your understanding of this event is poor.Let me quote verses from Quran and also its commentary. (37:102) and when he was old enough to go about and work with him, (one day) Abraham said to him: �My son, I see in my dream that I am slaughtering you. *58 So consider (and tell me) what you think.� He said: �Do as you are bidden. *60 You will find me, if Allah so wills, among the steadfast.�Commentary by Maulana Maududi *58 One should note that the Prophet Abraham had dreamt that he was sacrificing his son and not that he had sacrificed him. Although at that time he understood the dream to mean that he should sacrifice his son and on that very basis, he became ready to sacrifice him, with a cool mind, yet the fine point that Allah had in view in making him see the dream has been explained by Himself in verse 105 below.*60 The words clearly tell that the son had not taken the dream of his Prophet father to be a mere dream but a Command from Allah. Had it not been a Command actually, it was necessary that Allah should have explicitly or implicitly stated that the son of Abraham had mistaken it for a command. But the whole context is without any such allusion. On this very basis, there is the Islamic belief that the dream of the Prophets is never a mere dream it is also a kind of Revelation. Obviously, if a thing, which could become such a fundamental principle in the Divine Shari'ah, had not been based on reality, but had been a mere misunderstanding, it was not possible that Allah should not have refuted it. It is impossible for the one who believes the Qur'an to be Allah's Word, to accept That such an error and omission could emanate from Allah also. (37:103) When both surrendered (to Allah�s command) and Abraham flung the son down on his forehead, (37:104) We cried out: �O Abraham, (37:105) you have indeed fulfilled your dream. *63 Thus do We reward the good-doers.� *64 *63 That is, "We did not make you see in the dream that you had actually slaughtered your son and he had died, but that you were slaughtering him. That Vision you have fulfilled. Now, it is not Our will w take the life of your child: the actual object of the vision has been fulfilled by your submission and preparation to sacrifice him for Our sake."*64 That is, "We do not subject the people who adopt the righteous way to trials in order to involve them in trouble and distress and affliction just for the sake of it, but these trials are meant to bring out their excellencies and to exalt them to high ranks, and then We deliver them also safe and sound from the dilemma in which We place them for the sake of the trial. Thus, your willingness and preparation to sacrifice yow son is enough to entitle you to be exalted to the rank that could be attained only by the one who would actually have slaughtered his son for Our approval and pleasure. Thus, We have saved the life of yow child as well as exalted you to this high rank. "( http://www.tafheem.net/main.html - Source )
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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 11:33pm
Ron: The part you are debating is way late on the time line of Abraham's life when he had no doubt's left! His dad did for living was Idol manufacturing for the people! He abhorred that was a wrangler and seeker from the get go for something that was the truly the reality. His faith was on ascendancy once God showed him the signs of his acceptance! God had saved him the punishment for breaking of the idols converting the pit of fire into a little garden! And that relationship gets transformed into a relationship of a lover and beloved! Then a scenario of some test from the beloved come into play for what ever reason! Any lover knows what are those states! If you have not so far in your life I can say you just can't know that state no matter how much I or any one for that matter try to explain it to you! It is a universal fact of life if the beloved alludes to anything the man will end up fulfilling it! Just for example the King of England let the British Empire go for his American beloved and that is a very recent case! Now as you said " ought not obey" and that is not unusual at all cuz that exactly what the Satan was telling Abraham when He was talking and walking with Ishmael in the valley of Jumarat a Makkah suburb and Satan kept whispering and then Abraham picked up some stones and kept hurled thinking he wanted the whisperer get lost! And that act is part of the Pilgrimage for the believers to emulate, that is the final pillar of faith the Muslim do it once in the life time particularly when they have seen ebb and flow of lives as Abraham / Ishmael had done and then were put to this test and came through with flying colors and Satan lost his hope! Some just talk the talk and Abraham talked the talk and walked the walk too! Any way if you don't think it ought to be so it is way too late to be saying so! Just imagine the size of this legacy, billions of believers have traveled that route and yours truly happens to be one of them luckily! Every king or president or revolutionary just wishes to have legacies and there is hardly any one can come close! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 12:15am
Otherwise well worded sermon! The mentioning Issac being thine only son a doggone a classic case of bias and bigotry! Just cuz Ishmael was son of a black woman; is that why colonialist written bible would like to him forfeit his right of the relationship to his father? It is a fact Issac was the second son even according to the narrative of the your bible! I just can't wait ; it is so ironic that the future king of the western world will be a black man and he being called the Messiah for the lost western world! Yes Jesus expelled the money changers ----now the descendants of the same money changers have taken the world hostage Temple or no Temple! And how both candidates are in abeyance to the Jewish state of Israel! Look what have they done to the world by robbing the banks and investment houses and poor old folks' life savings! What has changed? What good are sermons? Or may be you are too young and idealistic! ------------- Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 2:22am
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Sign reader - I'd be interested in what you had to say if you yourself were not such a real and hearty bigot. You can't help but put your two big feet in it every time. I couldn't care less if Isaac were a green alien and Ishmael were a polka dot orange. I didn't know about the whole Isaac/Ishmael thing till very recently. It's the story that is important. The lesson in it for each and every one of us. You were right about the lover and the Beloved I think. I don't think the insanity that is 'being in love' is quite the same thing though. If you want to help someone understand the real lesson of the story - it's not a good place to start by rabbiting on like this....
"Just coz Ishmael was son of a black woman."
Dear God, you alienate all your horrible 'white' audience straight away. Not the Islamic 'way of peace' I am sure.
I'd imagine that Isaac were of a darker complexion if he were born in that part of the world. So I don't see why you're making it a racial matter. Just as you missed the point of the story of Arwen and tried to imply she were some white trash slut. Get over yourself for God's sake. The world is a big place. We don't all think and feel like some of you in your part of the world.
If you have issues with people's colour or race, which you obviously do - you need to look at that as part of your spiritual 'evolution'. We can all complain about such things. I don't think it's necessary in the context of discussing religion and spirituality, and trying to help others come to a knowledge and understanding, and maybe acceptance of what you believe.
Think a little. I am the same, why I say this to you. I blurt it out fore I put my brain in gear ;-) LOL
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 3:19am
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"Or may be you are too young and idealistic!"
Sign - you'd be very surprised. I've lived long enough and known the real and true crap of this life too. But I chose not to become so cynical, and YES, I know how hard that is - believe you me. Sometimes I have wondered that life were a stripping. Everything taken from you so you are left with nothing but bare faith. A faith that can only cry to God alone, and ask for deliverance for your self and every other soul in that darkness. And when we are in those places, again we can become hard and cynical and bitter - or we learn that we cannot judge any soul, cause when we do, we judge ourselves. It's a true expression I believe, "there but for the grace of God go I."
We all suffer in this life Signreader. Asking at times why in the hell things that happen, happen. We are driven to utter despair. But something gets us through. We can become hard and bitter and cynical - or we can respond to something else - I am not sure what, that allows us, despite the real and lasting darkness and pain, to grow - in compassion and love for the entire race - even the worst 'bs'tards' in the world - those who hurt us most.
I don't know how it happens but I do know it is possibe. You can walk in my shoes anytime you care to. Then tell me I am too young and idealistic ;-) Young at heart is something else ;-) LOL
We need to rid of the 'idols' of bigotry and prejudice too. If you read the biblical stories - as I try to do when I have time, as well as Qu'ran. We can relate to these stories on the individual level - what happens to each character individually, as well as communally. Our own stories are part of the scriptural stories too. It's a story of 'redemption' at the individual and societal, global levels. Something we won't see in our life times. The longer I live the more I truly begin to believe this place is just a place of learning and the Qu'ran does not necessarily contradict that possibility. He is "lord of the WorldS". Someone once said that the lesson is lthe earning to truly love in every situation imaginable. I think there is much truth in this. The whole notion of a paltry few years in this world - even it were a billion years - and then eternity suffering in hell, or even heaven, just seems utterly absurd. Life is hard as you well know. We cannot change and heal the world. We drive ourselves insane to think we can do that. We can only change our self first, and God willing - help others, one by one, day by day - to see some light in this dark ol' world. That's all we are called to do. I learned that when I stopped being 'too young and idealistic" LOL ;-)
God bless We can all help each other learn Sign. None have all the answers - another thing we learn as we get older. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 7:57am
Ron: Anyway, the bottom line is that it was an evil command.
Evil command from evil God?! God is pure of any
evilness. There is no point in argument if you imagine that the origin of worlds (God) is evil. What else would you expect from a created if the main creator
be evil?
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 6:01pm
I don't know how I could make it any clearer. I don't imagine that God is evil -- but you do if you can imagine God giving such an evil command. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 7:22am
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According to Jesus/Isa in the bible - Matthew I think. All sin is forgivable except attributing to God that which is evil.
For the rotten, capricious atheist you are Ronny Webb, you sure have a love of defending the good name of God ;-) lol
I got into more arguments than enough on Christian forums for the same thing. That God is not a mass murdering tyrant out to damn 90% of the creation to eternal hell. That would mean that the devil/shaitan is more powerful than God - and that is attributing a good to an evil, and an evil to the greatest Good - and that is the 'sin unpardonable.'
You're a 'good' soul ;-) I can tell by the fruits that hangs from your tree. LOL ! ;-)
May the Good God be good to you ;-)
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 8:14am
Ron: but you do if you can imagine God giving such an evil command.
I say it was not evil at all. You
say it was because you state that �commanding to kill an innocent person� is
evil. Can you clarify in what kind of system you are coming up with such a
statement?
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 3:54pm
Well, Islam, for one. What kind of system does not regard killing innocent people as immoral? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 10:38pm
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Response to Ron Webb Your understanding of this event is poor.Let me quote verses from Quran and also its commentary. (37:102) and when he was old enough to go about and work with him, (one day) Abraham said to him: �My son, I see in my dream that I am slaughtering you. *58 So consider (and tell me) what you think.� He said: �Do as you are bidden. *60 You will find me, if Allah so wills, among the steadfast.�Commentary by Maulana Maududi *58 One should note that the Prophet Abraham had dreamt that he was sacrificing his son and not that he had sacrificed him. Although at that time he understood the dream to mean that he should sacrifice his son and on that very basis, he became ready to sacrifice him, with a cool mind, yet the fine point that Allah had in view in making him see the dream has been explained by Himself in verse 105 below.*60 The words clearly tell that the son had not taken the dream of his Prophet father to be a mere dream but a Command from Allah. Had it not been a Command actually, it was necessary that Allah should have explicitly or implicitly stated that the son of Abraham had mistaken it for a command. But the whole context is without any such allusion. On this very basis, there is the Islamic belief that the dream of the Prophets is never a mere dream it is also a kind of Revelation. Obviously, if a thing, which could become such a fundamental principle in the Divine Shari'ah, had not been based on reality, but had been a mere misunderstanding, it was not possible that Allah should not have refuted it. It is impossible for the one who believes the Qur'an to be Allah's Word, to accept That such an error and omission could emanate from Allah also. (37:103) When both surrendered (to Allah�s command) and Abraham flung the son down on his forehead, (37:104) We cried out: �O Abraham, (37:105) you have indeed fulfilled your dream. *63 Thus do We reward the good-doers.� *64 *63 That is, "We did not make you see in the dream that you had actually slaughtered your son and he had died, but that you were slaughtering him. That Vision you have fulfilled. Now, it is not Our will w take the life of your child: the actual object of the vision has been fulfilled by your submission and preparation to sacrifice him for Our sake."*64 That is, "We do not subject the people who adopt the righteous way to trials in order to involve them in trouble and distress and affliction just for the sake of it, but these trials are meant to bring out their excellencies and to exalt them to high ranks, and then We deliver them also safe and sound from the dilemma in which We place them for the sake of the trial. Thus, your willingness and preparation to sacrifice yow son is enough to entitle you to be exalted to the rank that could be attained only by the one who would actually have slaughtered his son for Our approval and pleasure. Thus, We have saved the life of yow child as well as exalted you to this high rank. "( http://www.tafheem.net/main.html - Source )
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 10 October 2008 at 12:52am
Well, Islam, for one. What kind of system does not regard killing innocent people as
immoral?
In Islam �commanding to kill
an innocent person� (by itself) does not have enough information based on which
one can decide whether it is moral or not. The first question might be �who is
commanding�. If a human is commanding it is immoral and if it happens it is a
great sin, but If God is commanding then He is the owner and the creator while
it might have many reasons that we do not know. He is the owner and the creator who has totally different rights, powers and knowledge. Everyday you may see or hear many innocent people die of an illness (like cancer). Actually it is moral although God commands to an angel to take the patient�s spirit. Therefore, we can not simply generalize without knowing in which space (and with which conditions and reasons) we are postulating. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 October 2008 at 6:20pm
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If you are saying that God's own moral rules do not apply to Himself, then in addition to being evil, you are saying he is a hypocrite.
The "problem of evil" is too big a subject to take up here. All I will say in reply is that "I don't know" is a legitimate answer to the problem of evil, but it doesn't apply in this case. We know that Isaac was innocent, not deserving of death (among other things because otherwise he would not have been a worthy sacrificial offering). We know that God commanded Abraham to kill him, even if He later rescinded that command. We know that God's own moral code would call that an evil command. The situation is clear. There is no room for "I don't know".
Maybe so, but your commentary doesn't change anything. Killing an innocent person is still evil, and so is commanding it -- regardless of who gives the command. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 1:48am
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Woooo hooo.
You go Ron !! LOL
I love defenders of the 'good' God :-)
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 12:38am
Ron : If you are saying that God's own moral rules do not apply to Himself,
then in addition to being evil, you are saying he is a hypocrite.
You say He must make a rule for human being applying
to Himself while He is not human? Then it contradicts itself.
You say He must make a general moral rule applying
to Himself as well as all His creation. Can you support this expectation with a
proof or evidence, or it is only what you think it should be? Is that because
you think God should satisfy your thoughts then you say �well done, what a good
God you are�? No, He is the owner of you and everything. He is the creator of
you and everything. He is not to match Himself to what you would like. He has already revealed what is good and what is bad for you as a human being to act.
Ron: There is no room for "I
don't know".
You are right. Thank you for reminding me that there
is no room for �I do not know�. Look then:
1-
I know that
Abraham (as) was God�s prophet, therefore he would understand God�s messages clearly
without any mistake or doubt. Otherwise, he would not deserve for guiding
people on behalf of God.
2-
I know that
Ishmael (as) was Abraham�s son and also God�s prophet and God commanded Abraham
(as) to sacrifice Ishmael (as) as it is mentioned in Holy Scriptures.
3-
I know that
Abraham (as) obeyed God�s command, because he knew that.
4-
I know that (at
the moment of scarifying) the knife did not work by Allah�s command; therefore
the final Goal in this story was not to kill an innocent person.
5-
I know that Allah�s commands are anti-evil
once they are proved to be from Allah s.w.t.
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Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 10:58am
Prophet Abraham had dreamt that he was sacrificing his son and not that he had sacrificed him. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 1:24pm
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It is only what I think. But that is the "problem of evil" (why does God allow evil in the world?), and it really has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This situation is quite a bit simpler. It isn't God who is doing the killing here. God is commanding Abraham to kill. That is a clear contradiction of his Fifth Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill." Even without the Commandment, it is clearly wrong and clearly against natural law. Or does Islam not forbid Muslims to kill one another?
Not exactly. It is because that is the only way I can know God. Both God and Satan are supernatural beings with powers much greater than I can even comprehend. It would be easy for Satan to convince me (or Abraham) that he is God. But Satan will eventually give himself away by telling me something that my intellect tells me is wrong and evil. Like a command to kill an innocent person, for instance.
Via the Quran, I presume. But can you support this claim with a proof or evidence, or is it only what you think it should be? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 2:37am
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Hello Mansooor
"Prophet Abraham had dreamt that he was sacrificing his son and not that he had sacrificed him."
He did not sacrifice him in the bible version either. God intervened. In the Qu'ran version it seems that there is an expectation for sacrifice. Abraham's son is prostrate, waiting for a knife or something. Then God intervenes. Why did Abraham feel the need to kill his son at all ? Whether in a dream - message from God coming in dreams, or not ? Was the dream Abraham's subconscious telling him that his love for his son was greater than his love for the Creator, and he had to 'kill' that inordinate/idolatrous love ?
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 3:31am
God does not abuse animals . . . humans do.
Islam discourages abuse of even trees and vegetation, let alone animals. Ages before PETA was born, Islam laid down animal rights, and forbade animal abuse. You confuse slaughtering of an animal for food with abuse.
How is the slaughtering of an animal for meat, that is supposed to be given away in charity, equal to animal abuse? Thats what an 'animal sacrfice' is. An animal sacrifice in Islam, is the slaughtering of an animal, and distributing its hide, and meat amongst the needy. The act is reward-worthy.
Thanks to the Islamic concept of 'Animal Sacrifice' millions of poor muslims around the world, who could otherwise never afford to, get to eat meat atleast once a year.
Even for that, Islam laid down strict rules regarding animal abuse, and how to slaughter animals ethically, whilst causing them the least amount of pain possible. Thus ensuring no animal abuse takes place. There are numerous ahadith on the topic, the gist of which is:
1. Use a sharp knife, so as to make the job quick and reduce the pain involved.
2. Never slaughter/skin/cut one animal in front of another, lest we cause it distress/frighten it.
3. Care for the slaughter-intended animal in the best way possible, making available water, food, and shade. It may sound 'understood' to many . . . but bear in mind, that even modern day slaughterhouses do not do that. Simply because it does not make 'good economic sense' to invest into the comfort of an animal that is going to be killed anyway, possibly within a few hours. Slaughter-intended animals have been/are today considered 'commodities' and products, not living things with feelings. . . a concept that Islam goes against, and stresses upon ethical treatment. Rather, makes it a 'reward-worthy' act.
4. The islamic method of slaughter, which is blood-loss is the least painless of all methods, since the animal does not go through physical trauma and pain, a method used in slaughter-houses today i.e. blow to head, wringing of neck, electrocution. It dies slowly, due to lack of oxygen . . . (lack of Oxygen is a method used in 'ethical' euthanasia also btw)
5. Pregnant Females, or baby animals CANNOT be sacrificed. Infact, if an animal turns out to be pregnant, and was sacrificed. It is considered null - to stress upon the discouragement of the act.
6. An injured or animal is not sacrficed/killed either . . .
The 'sacrificed' animal does not 'benefit' God. It benefits humans. Subhanallah, that Allah made an act that benefits human biengs reward-worthy - and compulsory atleast once a year.
The sacrficer/owner of animal, may keep a small portion for herself, and eat it. Infact it is reccommended. The wisdom behind it which I see is, so that ppl dont sacrfice unfit/sick/inexpensive animals since they are meant for charity. When they are eating a portion from it themselves, its basically a declaration/ensurity that we are giving charity from something that we deem fit for us.
Bottomline: Animal Sacrifice IN ISLAM is not animal abuse. Perhaps in some other culture or religion . . .
Lastly, Allah says in the Qur'an, regarding animal sacrifice: "Their flesh reaches not Allah, nor does their blood, but it is your righteousness that reaches Him. Thus He has subjected them to you, that you may glorify Allah for His guiding you. And give glad tidings to those who do good." - surah Hajj , V37 ------------- "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young." |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 6:43am
Ron: God is commanding Abraham to kill. That is a clear contradiction
of his Fifth Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill."
In Quran we
have the following conditional commandment, although in His Fifth commandment the
following condition must be the obvious background.
Quran 17:33 : And kill not any soul, which Allah has forbidden without right�
In the story of Abraham (as), Allah s.w.t.
commanded. Therefore, obviously there is the corresponding right as long as
Allah wills. On the other hand, if in this story Abraham (as) had failed to
obey Allah�s command (or followed Satan�s command) it would be reported by God
in the Holy Scriptures.
Quran 37:102: (102) Then, when they had both submitted themselves (to the Will of Allah),
and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (or on the side of his forehead
for slaughtering); (103) And We called out to him: "O Abraham! (104) you
have fulfilled the dream!" Verily! thus do We reward the Mohsenin
(good-doers).
Ron: Even without the Commandment, it is clearly wrong and clearly against
natural law.
No, it is not clear without knowing who commands and
what happens finally. Nor does natural law support it.
Ron: Satan will eventually give himself away by telling me something that my
intellect tells me is wrong and evil. Like a command to kill an innocent
person, for instance.
How do you know? It is not the case unless you
assume that Satan is always failing to know or guess what your
intellect rejects. Interestingly, at the same time you claim that Satan has
supernatural powers!
Ron: Via the Quran, I presume. But can you support this claim with a
proof or evidence, or is it only what you think it should be?
It is not only what I think. Quran explicitly claims
it:
The existence of an owner and
creator for everything can be understood by intellect. Quran also tells
us to do so. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 5:52pm
Not obviously. "By right" does not mean "by command". Yusuf Ali translates it as "except for just cause". There was no just cause for killing Isaac/Ismael.
I know it's in the Quran. I asked if you could support the claim with proof or evidence (as you demanded of me). Do you have any proof or evidence that the Quran is the word of God? Or is that just what you think it should be? My point is that we're talking about belief here, not fact. If you want proof or evidence, look to science, not religion. Every ethical system I know of, every culture or nation of any consequence, has recognized the sanctity of life as something not to be denied "except for just cause". Of course I can't prove it, but there can be no clearer example of a natural law than this.
In the case of a natural disaster, perhaps there is some "just cause", some greater evil to be avoided or some other necessity for such tragedy. In this case, however, it is clear that there is no just cause. If you believe that this command came from God, then it is the capricious act of a callous God in complete disregard for His own moral code or His followers' feelings. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 14 October 2008 at 2:01am
Ron: Not obviously. "By right" does not mean "by
command". Yusuf Ali translates it as "except for just
cause". There was no just cause for killing Isaac/Ismael.
I think none of them is exact translation. In Arabic
the condition is �Ella Bel Hagh�. �Ella� means except. �Be� means �with�, �by�,
�through�. �Hagh� means �anti-evil� and actually it refers to what is related
with �Allah� Himself. In another verse in Quran it states that whenever �Hagh�
comes evil removes
�Hagh� is
also translated to �Just� and I think it is because Allah is just. But the
exact meaning of �Just� in Arabic is �Adl� rather than �Hagh�. I believe that
if it is from Allah, then it is Just. Allah s.w.t. is the criterion for just rather
than our decision.
Ron: I asked if you could support the claim with proof or evidence (as you
demanded of me).
Ron: Do you have any proof or evidence that the Quran is the word of God? My
point is that we're talking about belief here, not fact. If you want
proof or evidence, look to science, not religion.
I do not know why you suppose that religion must
mean belief without a proof? The existence of any prophet is historical
evidence, if you admire history as a science. Once it is proved that one is a
prophet of Allah, when he says a word is word of Allah, it is.
In addition, the necessity for existence of Allah
and prophets can be proved purely by intellect and wisdom. Many scientists have
worked on this subject and published many books and results, presenting rational
theoretical support and discussed on them. This is a kind of science itself
like philosophy. What is your definition of science? Is science only related to
what one can measure in laboratory?
Ron: In the case of a natural disaster, perhaps there is some "just
cause", some greater evil to be avoided or some other necessity for
such tragedy.
Therefore, there is room for �I do not know� when you
say �perhaps�. I am astonished why your intellect can accept a God who would
send a prophet to guide people who is mad and can be very easily tricked by
Satan, rather than thinking at least that �perhaps� there is a reason behind that?
In the funny case you imagine,
one can ask God wouldn�t you have a more intellectual prophet than Abraham to
guide people? What would be the answer of God do you think? |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 October 2008 at 7:21pm
|
The existence of Muhammad is historical fact, but there is no historical evidence for his claim that he was a prophet.
There is room for "I don't know" concerning the reason for natural disasters, whose causes and consequences are complex and hard to understand. There is no such room in this straightforward story. No, I don't believe that God would send a prophet who is mad, but I see no reason why he couldn't be tricked. He is human, after all. But more to the point, I simply don't believe this story. As I said at the beginning, it is an repugnant story that teaches blind obedience to the evil commands of a capricious God. It doesn't belong in holy scripture. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 12:55am
Ron: The existence of Muhammad is historical fact, but there is no
historical evidence for his claim that he was a prophet.
There are many historical evidences. By the way, it
seems that you are not convinced about the prophethood of Mohammad s.a.w.a.
from historical evidences. So you must not believe in prophethood of Isa (as),
Moses (as), David (as), Abraham (as) and so on for the same reason, must you?
Ron: No, I don't believe that God would send a prophet who is mad, but I see
no reason why he couldn't be tricked.
Therefore, in your opinion,
the bottom line is that a prophet could be tricked in a very straightforward
and fully understandable matter. I am sorry my intellect rejects such a person deserving
prophethood. It contradicts the goals and necessity of prophethood. |
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 6:18am
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From Myahya:
do not know why you suppose that religion must mean belief without a proof? The existence of any prophet is historical evidence, if you admire history as a science. Once it is proved that one is a prophet of Allah, when he says a word is word of Allah, it is.
The existence of Muhammad is historical fact, but there is no historical evidence for his claim that he was a prophet. Therefore, there is room for �I do not know� when you say �perhaps�. I am astonished why your intellect can accept a God who would send a prophet to guide people who is mad and can be very easily tricked by Satan, rather than thinking at least that �perhaps� there is a reason behind that? There is room for "I don't know" concerning the reason for natural disasters, whose causes and consequences are complex and hard to understand. There is no such room in this straightforward story. No, I don't believe that God would send a prophet who is mad, but I see no reason why he couldn't be tricked. He is human, after all. But more to the point, I simply don't believe this story. As I said at the beginning, it is an repugnant story that teaches blind obedience to the evil commands of a capricious God. It doesn't belong in holy scripture. Ron, since you are an atheist, there is no God for you and no prophet. There is no problem for you. Could you tell me which is your holy scripture that you mentioned in your last line, please?
------------- If any one is bad some one must suffer |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 4:16pm
|
Such as?
Well, at least Jesus (why do you call him Isa, by the way?) performed a number of miracles that would be objective evidence to those who witnessed them. If accounts of those miracles had been as meticulously recorded and preserved as the Quran then I might find them persuasive. Unfortunately I agree with Muslims that the Bible is not absolutely reliable as a historical document.
I am inclined to agree with you. But what makes you think they were prophets?
I think the problem is the same for all of us: to decide which (if any) of the many scriptures and prophets are authentic, and which are not. By "holy scripture" I meant both the Bible and the Quran; and it is stories like the one we are discussing that make me question their authenticity. How do you decide? What is it that convinces you that Muhammad was a Prophet? ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 18 October 2008 at 9:52am
Ron: Such as?
Quran (54.1-3) The hour is approached and the moon split. And if they see a miracle they turn aside and
say: �Continuous Magic!� And they call
(it) a lie, and follow their low desires; and every affair has its appointed
term.
The miracle of the splitting of the moon was
demonstrated before a certain gathering who persisted in denial of Muhammad�s
Prophethood. As was related by �Adbullah ibn Mas�ud, while they were in Mina�
one night, the Prophet split the moon into two by a gesture of his index
finger. The halves of the moon appeared one behind the mountain and the other
in front of it. Then, the Prophet turned to us and said: �Be witnesses!
Ron: Well, at least Jesus (why do you call him Isa, by the way?) performed a
number of miracles that would be objective evidence to those who witnessed
them.
In Quran his name is Isa and Massih so I prefer to
use these words. However, what is the meaning of the word �Jesus�? Who has invented
it for Massih (as)? Anyway, the above miracle was objective, wasn�t it?
Ron: If accounts of those miracles had been as meticulously recorded and
preserved as the Quran then I might find them persuasive.
The accounts of the miracles and events in Islam are
apparently much more and some of them have been recorded from many different
and independent historical lines, they are called �Motevater� means so
recurrent or continual that they are convincing. They are more convincing when
the reports are from those who did not benefit from those events materially.
Ron: I am inclined to agree with you. But what makes you think they
were prophets?
I can say History + Wisdom (or Intellect). However,
in another view the answer is Allah s.w.t. One who has created me and sent the prophets and
meticulously preserved a book after 1400 years (an objective miracle itself). We have the duty to have
the pure desire to know the truth and search for it. The rest is in the hands
of one who knows our desires and guides us.
In the past there have been
millions of people among them were magicians, theorists, kings, philosophers,
businessmen, governors and so on. Without a doubt, many of them were geniuses
in their own field and time. None of them claimed they were prophet. Many tried
to pretend they were prophet but failed to prove such a claim. History is our
background as human being and we are coming from it. Many of our ancestors have
purely done their best to transfer it to us precisely, though many have tried
to change the truth and remove the prophets from the history of human being. Nevertheless,
no wise scientist says they do not study anymore because there might be errors
in science.
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Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 19 October 2008 at 9:04am
|
I think the "miracle of the splitting of the moon" is a misguided attempt by the followers of Muhammad to attribute supernatural powers to their Prophet (a.k.a. shirk) even though he repeatedly warned them not to. First of all, "the hour is approached" is an obvious reference to the Hour of Judgement, marking the passage as allegorical, not literal. Second, "the moon split" is an astonishingly terse comment if it represents an actual event. Surely such a momentous occasion as an actual miracle would deserve more than a mere three words. Third, the Quran says "if they see a miracle", not "when they saw the miracle", which again shows it to be hypothetical. You may also note that the phrase is similar to several other passages in the Quran where it is explained that Muhammad did not perform miracles, despite the demands of unbelievers, because even if he showed them a miracle they would deny it. If you could find an historical report of the splitting of the moon from independent observers elsewhere on the planet (and surely someone would have noticed and commented on such a remarkably sight!) then that would be interesting. Oddly enough, no one else saw it. (And even then, it would only be evidence that the event occurred and that Muhammad had knowledge of it -- not that he had caused it.)
The preservation of the Quran certainly shows the dedication and reverence of Muslims throughout history, but there is nothing miraculous about it. There are plenty of ancient books, both orally transmitted and original manuscripts, that are as old or older. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 20 October 2008 at 1:38am
Ron: First of all, "the hour is approached" is an obvious
reference to the Hour of Judgement, marking the passage as allegorical, not
literal.
This sentence is allegorical and one of its references can be the Day of Judgment. To this extent I agree. However, it does not make the whole passage allegorical. It depends on the next sentences. �The moon split� is an obvious literal sentence reporting an event in a simple past tense. It means that the event happened in the past for sure. It may happen again on the Day of Judgment, but the sentence says that it also happened before that day. It happened at the time of Mohammad (s.a.w.a) and people were witnesses, otherwise people would ask him to give historical evidences for such an event happening at the past time.Ron: Second, "the moon split" is an astonishingly terse comment if
it represents an actual event. Surely such a momentous occasion as an
actual miracle would deserve more than a mere three words.
I am sorry. This is an emotion rather than argument.
Ron: Third, the Quran says "if they see a miracle", not "when
they saw the miracle", which again shows it to be hypothetical.
It shows that the passage is about a miracle rather
than a natural or geographical event. It is not in the past tense because many
unbelievers used to deny the miracles. It was not the first nor the last
time that unbelievers deny.
Ron: You may also note that the phrase is similar to several other passages
in the Quran where it is explained that Muhammad did not perform miracles
No verse in Quran shows it, while the reverse is
clearly shown:
Quran (61:6) And remember Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 October 2008 at 6:16pm
|
Well, if I have to explain to you that the word "if" introduces a hypothetical or conditional clause, or that the phrase "used to" means past tense, then I have no hope of explaining that "meticulous" does not mean true or historically accurate. So I give up. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 1:25am
Ron: Well, if I have to explain to you that the word "if"
introduces a hypothetical or conditional clause, or that the phrase "used
to" means past tense, then I have no hope of explaining that "meticulous"
does not mean true or historically accurate. So I give up.
Thank you for correcting my grammatical mistake. I
had to say �they have this habit�. However, it clears more
what I was going to say. Meticulous means extremely precise. I used �if�
condition to say that if Quran is meticulous beside you (as you already
claimed), then why do you need another reference to support it? If you say it
is extremely precise but historically not accurate, then in such a mixture I feel having no hope of understanding what you really believe in.
May be first you have to go to historians and
ask about the accuracy of Quran.
Salaams
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 5:56am
|
IF they see a miracle. Hypothetical statement, not an actual miracle. Same as Quran 30:58. [sigh] ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 6:13am
|
Ever hear of, 'the miracle of the sun' Myaha ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun
You would wonder that if the moon were truly split, or the sun danced as reported at Fatima - that we'd be here at all, considering the cataclysmic events that should have followed.
|
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 10:53am
|
Everyone, It is important that we comply with the rules of this section and the forum.
Peace ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 12:52am
IF they
see a miracle. Hypothetical statement, not an actual
miracle. Same as Quran 30:58.
�If
clause� can also be used for describing what is always happening as an actual
behavior:
"If they
see a miracle they say it is magic" simply describes that it is always happening as a fact (like about the other prophets),
supporting and confirming what had happened. Because �IF� can also mean: whenever.
Hypothetical statements are not the only applications of �if clause�.
In
addition, the verb tenses of the third verse of the translation I copied are
wrong. In the Arabic text, in the third verse the tenses are simple past not
present. Therefore the better translation is:
Quran (54.3) And they denied (called (it)
a lie), and followed their low desires; and every affair has its
appointed term.
|
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 6:25am
Gulliver: You would wonder that if the moon were truly split, or the sun danced
as reported at
Why
do you think such a process should be cataclysmic? God is able to control it or
not?
|
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 6:58am
|
The moon being split, or the sun 'dancing' in the heavens would mean the end of us all. Of course it would be cataclysmic. Can God control it ? Well if God exists, then yes. If the moon were actually split, or the sun danced in the solar system - why did not the entire world witness such an event - at least the hemisphere. If God intervenes to the extent He will show 'signs' and wonders of that magnitude - why not prevent things like earthquakes or the Tsunami a few years ago.
I don't know if these things happened or not Myaha. I am just wondering that if they did happen - they happened only in the minds of those who witnessed them ?
At these 'Marian' apparitions it is claimed that prayer and fasting can 'avert' calamaties that befall mankind. In 1917 Mary is supposed to have said that World War 1 would soon end, which it did. But that if humanity did not return to God then another war - greater, and worse than the first would break out. WWII. Jesus did say that 'certain demons' can only be overcome with 'prayer and fasting'. I believe miracles do happen. I think I witnessed a few in my own life time. I just wonder about those of a magnitude of the moon being split or the sun dancing. That they would not be the end of us all. But then there were such miracles reported in the OT it would seem. The parting of the Red Sea etc. Dunno if they were in the Qu'ran or not.
|
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 4:30am
The moon being split, or the sun 'dancing' in the heavens would mean
the end of us all. Of course it would be cataclysmic. Can God control it?
Well if God exists, then yes.
Our
discussion is based on the assumption of existence of God, if you are not sure about
His existence yet.
If the moon were actually split, or the sun danced in the solar system
- why did not the entire world witness such an event - at least the hemisphere.
Why the
entire world should witness it at that particular time? Was there a Hubble
Telescope or a space center, zooming on the moon all the time? Or you think ALL
people on the earth had to be staring at moon at the very same moment? However,
Islam left an evidence for the entire world forever: Quran.
If God intervenes to the extent He will show 'signs' and wonders of
that magnitude - why not prevent things like earthquakes or the Tsunami a few
years ago.
Earthquakes and Tsunamis can happen at any
moment. Why do you not think that God has prevented millions of them, unless
only a few among them for intellectual people to understand something?
I don't know if these things happened or not Myaha. I am just wondering
that if they did happen - they happened only in the minds of those who
witnessed them?
Although
for everybody specific convincing evidences exist, but as I said before, today the
entire world can witness Quran, a book with proved accuracy. In twenty first
century (when human being is proud of science and intellect) it is the most consistent
miracle, isn�t it?
In
addition, at the time of any prophet (as well as the last one), there were
people who believed in them but did not demand a miracle. There were also
people who demanded miracles and witnessed them but stayed unbeliever!
Therefore, it proves that the existence of miracle and watching is not
enough. A pure deeply-willing heart for truth is also needed.
I believe miracles do happen. I think I witnessed a few in my own life
time.
Yes Gulliver,
for everyone there are many signs I believe.
I just wonder about those of a magnitude of the moon being split
or the sun dancing. That they would not be the end of us all. But then there
were such miracles reported in the OT it would seem. The parting of the Red Sea
etc. Dunno if they were in the Qu'ran or not.
The
prophet of Islam was illiterate. Thus, he did not read any book (including NT
or OT) nor did anybody train him. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 6:43am
"Why the entire world should witness it at that particular time? Was there a Hubble Telescope or a space center, zooming on the moon all the time? Or you think ALL people on the earth had to be staring at moon at the very same moment? However, Islam left an evidence for the entire world forever: Quran."Hmmmmmmmmm. I did not say all people. But perhaps the hemisphere in semi or complete darkness. But you are correct. Unless people were actually looking - they'd have missed seeing the event. It still does not explain why we are still here, if the moon actually split.
|
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:58pm
|
Ron,
you said: "The preservation of the Quran certainly shows the dedication and reverence of Muslims throughout history, but there is nothing miraculous about it. There are plenty of ancient books, both orally transmitted and original manuscripts, that are as old or older."
But can any one of them prove to match the accuracy and agreement within its contents as in the case of the Quran?
Those who refuse to believe that Quran is God's word revealed to prophet Mohamed (pbuh) are left to believe that it is a miracle both in its contents and at its miticulous survival for fourteen centuries.
And if we are carefull in our thiking and with our words, we know that prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not claim to be anything more than a man, and a prophet. Thus, out of himself he could not perform any miracles. That leaves us with only the other choice, that the truth of the matter, that the Quran is from God. And just like, life is from God, is a miracle for us. So is the Quran, a word from God, a miracle.
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 October 2008 at 7:52pm
|
Is it reasonable that out of the millions of people in the world, NONE of them happened to glance up at the moon? Remember, these were pre-modern societies, before electric lighting or indoor plumbing or urban sprawl. The moon was an important aspect of their lives -- their only source of outdoor light at night, their calendar, not to mention an object of beauty and wonder and sometimes even worship. Nobody got up that night to walk to the biffy, and noticed that he was casting two shadows instead of one? And having noticed, you don't think he would wake up the family, run to the neighbours, summon the wise men of the community to witness and interpret, or at least to document, this amazing event? If there is a miracle here, it is that nobody outside of Muhammad's little band of followers seems to have observed it. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 25 October 2008 at 4:00am
| What's a 'biffy' ? lol :-) |
Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 10:26am
|
Everyone,
Once again, let us stick to the thread please and comply with forum and section rules. ------------- Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny? Qur'an 55:13 |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 7:17am
Gulliver: It still does not explain why we are still here, if the moon
actually split.
You
said if God exists, He can control the process. Thus, He can do it without
generating any destruction on earth. Is it possible for God or not?
How do you know God prevents millions of tsunamis and earthquakes?
I do
not know and I didn�t postulate this. You assumed the reversed; I said why not
assuming like this?
If God prevents that many - then God should prevent them all. It's
unfair and inconsistent.
Judging without enough comprehensive knowledge is unfair. I think earthquakes and many other natural events are playing roles to make the general ecosystem reach a balance. If they had not been happened, human being might have been already extinct. Human lack of ability to predict some of these events can not prove unfairness for Allah s.w.t.And why not the 'intellectual' people wiped out by the 'few'.
I
did not mean a specific group of people by saying �intellectual�. All people
have been blessed with intellect. All the natural and physical systems and
events from an atom to star explosions are signs for God�s creation and anybody
can use their intellect to understand if they would like to.Nearly always the poor and starving in the world who are most often
afflicted with these disasters.
Allah
s.w.t. created human on the earth with the same blessings every where on it,
with the same physical as well as cognitive abilities for human being. From
God�s side blessings are equal. Now, tell us who is responsible for poverty,
human or God?Some would have claimed that 'God' punished certain people, mostly
Muslims/Hindus with the tsunami, for not believing in Christ. Does Islam
believe similarly. If there is a tsumami or hurricane or earthquake that hits a
certain population - it's 'God's punishmnent' for whatever.
Can you clarify this? So I can look at that for myself. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 5:40pm
Hmmm, I thought it was a common colloquialism, , but I guess not. Let's just say if you get up for a walk in the middle of the night, that's probably where you're going.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/biffy - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/biffy ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 4:53am
|
"Regarding signs etc. Jesus did say that it was an 'adulterous generation' that looked for 'signs and wonders'"
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012&version=9 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012&version=9 ;
I had to check it Myaha. The scribes and pharisees are looking a sign from Jesus, some kind of 'proof'.
The reference is not to 'adultery' as with an umarried person with a married person. It's aduleration - something less than pure. Here perhaps - purity of faith, intent in the heart etc. Where there is true, pure faith - there is no need for vulgar displays of power. I think Jesus is saying that those seeking signs and wonders are more interested in signs and wonders than in truly knowing God for God Himself. The faith/service/love of God is not pure - it's adulterated.
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. 38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. __________________________________________________
"His favorite place for meditation was the Hira cave about three miles from Makkah. He would spend the entire month of Ramadan (the ninth month of the lunar calendar, and later the month during which Muslims were ordained to fast in order to practice abstinence and self-discipline to attain personal piety) meditating in this cave. This practice of meditating in seclusion, striving for wisdom and righteousness was common among the Arabs and was called "Tahannuf." The cave of Hira was where he received his initial revelation. However after he received the first revelation, which was in essence a call for action, the Prophet never went back to the cave."
http://www.ispi-usa.org/muhammad/muhammad7.html - http://www.ispi-usa.org/muhammad/muhammad7.html
Maybe I should have said he was a contemplative. I didn't mean it in a negative way. It's what draws anyone to that place of inner contemplation - the 'holy place' where God meets us. Like Moses in the cave too.
________________________________
I did not deny that he grew up in society and that he had hearings. However, what do you want to say with that? There is also a great deal of information in Quran which can not be found in OT, NT or other books/scriptures before it.
Same could be said of the bible Myaha. But then there are all the claims of corruption to deal with, and the arguments and counter arguments on that issue.
What you're saying above is it's all a matter of faith. But the question is, faith in what - in whom. That's what I am trying to find out.
_________________________________
This is a side track. In the bible it speaks of children looking to come to see Jesus. The disciples try and prevent the children getting close to him. Jesus says, "suffer the little children to come unto Me, for to such as these belongs the Kingom of Heaven." I'd love to know what Jesus said to the children. How was Muhammad with children ? Any records of anything he said to children ? :-)
God bless Myaha. I am sure we'll all find out one day.
|
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 2:37am
Gulliver :I think Jesus is saying that those seeking signs and wonders are more interested in signs and wonders than in truly knowing God for God Himself. The faith/service/love of God is not pure - it's adulterated.Thanks
for quoting. It must mean the lack of pureness. In the time of all prophets
unbelievers demanded signs but some of them did not believe even after seeing
the signs. 38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying,
Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39But he answered and said unto them, An evil
and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no
sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's
belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of
the earth.
These
verses interest me because Massih (as) is talking about one specific and very
important sign: the prophet Jonas (as) and the Son of man. It would be
interesting to find out the message behind these verses. Another
interesting point is that in Islam we have one Surah in Quran named Jonas and I
just checked it and it starts this way: I didn't mean it in a negative way. It's what draws anyone to that
place of inner contemplation - the 'holy place'
where God meets us. Like Moses in the cave too.
That is
right. I just wanted to stress on the difference here. Same could be said of the bible Myaha. But then there are all the
claims of corruption to deal with, and the arguments and counter arguments on
that issue.
These
claims of corruption are right. There is no doubt that the level of historical authenticity
of Quran (which is word by word and 100%) can not be compared to Bible. This is
a very clear issue. Nevertheless, Lets only assume that there has been no
corruption in Bible as well. So what? Could it be a reason to believe in Bible
but not in Quran? On the
other hand, if I understood properly, you were saying that Mohammad s.a.w.a.
might have dictated Quran from whatever he had heard in the society about God,
religion, preceding prophets, Bible and so on. But Mohammad s.a.w.a. had been
brought up and lived inside those people for 40 years. Do you think it is easy
to trick all of them by feeding back to them the same hearings and they did not understand it and accepted
them as Holy words of God? Is it reasonable? Can you show us a similar
example in the history of human being? Furthermore, Could you have the same
idea about the prophets before him like Isa (as), Moses (as) and the others with
their books? What you're saying above is it's all a matter of faith. But the
question is, faith in what - in whom. That's what I am trying to find
out.
It is faith
in our creator, the creator of everything. He loves us and so cares about us. You
and all other normal human being (as created beings of the creator) care about
their children in their home, don�t they? so the creator does care about His created being. It is faith in
His prophets who are sent from Him to guide us towards Him. Gulliver,
you are not a single point in space moving in an aimless chaotic manner. You,
as a human being, are coming from a long history. Humans along this history line
were not st**id to be tricked easily by a few of them called prophets. One has
to think more about the truth with their pure heart and make decision before
getting so late. I'd love to know what Jesus said to the children. How was
Muhammad with children ? Any records of anything he said to children ? :-)
There are
many stories in history about the relations between Mohammad s.a.w.a. and
children. He always was the first to say greetings (Salaams) to everyone even
children. He also used to play with them. The
Prophet of Islam has stated that �If you like someone, express your feelings to
them. This expression of love brings you closer to each other." (Mustadrak
al-wasail,v 2, p. 67). The Prophet used to play with his children and grand
children every morning expressing his love and affection for them. (Mustadrak
al-wasail,v 104, p. 99) There is
an online book about upbringing of children in Islam and how it is recommended
to behave with them. You can find it here: God bless and guide all of us, With Salaams |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 3:00am
|
Hello Myaha I don't disagree with anything you have said here. When it come to 'corrpuption' on any scipture. I don't know. I do believe God will tell us what He wishes us to hear in either of them if we aks sincerely for guidance and with humility - ackwnowledging we don't know if or how they may be 'corrupted' or where. Bible or Qu'ran. I don't know Myaha but I trust God enough that God will not let me be deceived and to know Him through both perhaps. He is the author of all, afterall.
Do you ever have days you just want to stop analysing it all - and all the 'stuff' of it and just be still and pray and believe in God.
Some times I wonder if the ol shaitan doesn't like us expending a lot of energy in all of this, time better spent in prayer and the love/service of others.
But it is all intestesting and helpful none the less. Thanks.
God bless
Kevin
|
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 31 October 2008 at 3:05am
|
Faith in what/whom ? For me, it's faith in God. That's all I have ever had and have now. All the rest for the most part just confuses me most of the time and distracts me from what is important. Prayer in all its forms and the doing of God's will - the love and service of others - family, friends and society.
Just have to look outside and see all the beautiful colours of Autumn here and know it did not just spring from a big nothing. We see evidence of God everywhere and I believe most when you look into the eyes of a beautiful innocent child and he/she smiles and you and gives you a big hug :-) That is 'heaven' on earth.
I do believe God loves and cares for us in ways we cannot begin to comprehend. Even looking at our children - we'd gladly shed our own blood if it would help them - prevent them being destroyed in this world.
God bless M
K
|
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 04 November 2008 at 9:19am
Kevin:Do you ever have days you just want to stop analysing it all - and all the 'stuff' of it and just be still and pray and believe in God.The
principles like existence of God, existence of Prophets and existence of the
next world (I mean the pillars) are to be analyzed for one time and forever. After
that, it would be a matter of belief. A believer (if he/she is wise) does not
have to analyze them everyday. Faith in what/whom? For
me, it's faith in God. That's all I have ever had and have now. All the rest
for the most part just confuses me most of the time and distracts me from what
is important. Prayer in all its forms and the doing of God's will
What
is your criterion for God�s will? How do you understand what is God�s
will? According to what reference? Just have to look outside
and see all the beautiful colours of Autumn here and know it did not just
spring from a big nothing. We see evidence of God everywhere and I believe most
when you look into the eyes of a beautiful innocent child and he/she smiles and
you and gives you a big hug :-) That is 'heaven' on earth.
Islam
teaches us to enjoy such beautiful blessings, to care about them, and to be
thankful of Allah s.w.t. for them. But at the same time, it also warns us of the
next world, if we do not behave fairly with regards to blessings and other
created being specifically human being. There is another world with its heaven
and hell. Everything is not summarized in what we see in this world. Besides,
I hope to be a Muslim worshiping God not (only) for fear nor (only) for reward but
like one that Ali ibn Abu Talib (as) describes: |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 04 November 2008 at 10:31am
|
I know what you mean here Myaha. I was just referring to the odd day. When you are sick and tired of trying to sort out truth from fiction in any of it - all the reading and listening. So you just head off into the hills. I live not far from Donegal in Ireland. It's very beautiful there, Donegal - called the 'garden of Irleland'. We really do have forty shades of green here :-) And it's near the ocean which I love. You find God there as surely as in any book. I think the Qu'ran and the Bible recommend this - to see in the Creation how God exists, and is 'worshipped' in and through the existence of that very Creation. God speaks to the weary heart and soul through all of it :-)
It is claimed in Christianity I believe, that the 'commandments' of God are 'written' in the heart. At the end of the day, that's where we discern God's will for our selves. Of course we need knowledge and guidance etc too.
I was really just being light hearted about all the reading, and the confusion that can often exist in places like this - with so many perspectives and beliefs on various matters.
I'd like to reach this stage Myaha
"Yet another group worship Allah s.w.t. out of gratitude; this is the worship of freemen.�
Some times when I pray at night I ask God to forgive me for being so ungrateful and insensitive to the gifts I have been given in this life. I really do, and some times I feel 'like crap' for that ingratitude. Excuse that expression in this context. But it's really how I feel at those times. Anyway - thank you Myaha.
God bless
|
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 November 2008 at 5:30pm
I agree, but what about the converse? -- that a God who offers heaven in exchange for worship is a God of traders; and a God who threatens punishment for disobedience is a God of prisoners. To me, a true God would extend his grace to all people as free men, unconditionally. It has always seemed to me that all the threats and bribes in the Holy Scriptures of the monotheistic religions are demeaning to the very concept of a loving God. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 1:37am
|
Have to admit I agree with you again Ron. When I say that to others, that God often seems like an awful tryant and not unconditionally loving at all - I am told that God is perfectly 'just' too. That punishment is due for disobedience/sin. I have asked before here, and I always ask - what is 'justice'. A few miserly years in this world and we inherit 'eternal' damnation. That's not a loving God at all. If there is a God, I think that it's about learning - and we are allowed to learn from mistakes. We have 'eternity' for God's sake.
Though I would understand the 'worship' of Allah out of gratitude is the 'worship' of a loving God.
Why is fear used to manipulate and control - when in the Christian scriptures it says "perfect love casts out ALL fear."
I really don't see the point of being here, as a supposed 'believer' - if all we are to do here is worry about going to heaven or hell, in the 'afterlife'.
Anyway.........
|
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 6:28pm
Ron,
if you were right, we will be in heaven by now. No suffering, no trial, no right and no wrong. If you were right then everything was fine to do whether right or wrong from any point of view. Those who like to kill (there are a lot of serial killers on this planets) to those who have lust for flesh, hey do it more there is no justice and no punishement for wrong doings, no I don't think so.
I don't think so my friend, as long as you and I are here, we feel rain and wind, cold and hot, good day and bad times, work hard to put the bread on the table and as long as you and I feel pain when get hurt and comfort when we rest, as long as we reward our kids for good conduct and discipline for not so desired behaviors, as long as we put criminals behind bars and honor those who benefit the mankind you better believe it. The geologists say, " present is the key to the past", as a believer I say, " the present is the key to the future".
Just like you expect your boss to reward you for your achievements, and expect to be fired for adverse actions, how do you want to make others believe otherwise in this case? Illusions or something else?
Hasan ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 7:48pm
|
As you say, Hasan, there are lots of killers on this planet, and lots of other bad people. Clearly God's strategy of threatening punishment in some future afterlife is not only cruel but ineffective. Surely a loving God would actively prevent evil, instead of compounding it with yet more evil. I think this would be better discussed separately, so I have opened a new discussion. http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13488&PID=114993#114993 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13488&PID=114993#114993------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 06 November 2008 at 2:40am
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"as long as we reward our kids for good conduct and discipline for not so desired behaviors"
I was on a course in London once. Teaching thing. One of the lecturers - an ex head teacher, and one of those horrible OfSted inspectors talked about 'reward'ing children's work. She was death on putting 'gold stars' or the like on 'good' work - work well done. She said the child would see the objective of the lesson to be the attainment of a 'gold star' rather than the reward of the learning itself, something the child would carry for life. It could also create problems for the children themselves in an unhealthy 'competitive' way - that some got 'gold stars' and others did not. I remember thinking, "what a cold oul b'''h you are." But she was correct. She did have a little reward system in place - cards she'd pick out herself, and every so often write a personal message on these individual cards and give to the child as an acknowledgement of what they had done for themselves, attaining the real intention/objective - learning, and the real and lasting good they began to get from it. It worked too. She was from New Zealand, and they do seem to be ahead in a lot of ways in matters of education and health care.
It seems to me that it's all about learning. 'Sin' is about choosing to be in bondage, a slave, prisoner to whatever harms us - and we have to learn, often the hard way, that we may have other choices. I don't believe God judges or punishes as such. But that what we learn, or fail to learn, is 'reward' or the 'punishment' in itself.
Why are there killers on the planet ? And do we have some responsibility in creating 'killers' ? Now, there's a question.
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 4:46pm
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Gulliver,
"Why are there killers on the planet ? And do we have some responsibility in creating 'killers' ? Now, there's a question. "
I think the matter is much simpler than what some have portrayed it to be.
All of us who drive a car know the power under that gas paddle, we choose a proper pressure to assure desired acceleration. Now it can be abused and we know the results, undesired outcome. You know that if you just push that paddle to the bottom in a middle of a crowded street, you will bring disaster for many and for yourself, but forseeing the results you choose to be careful with that paddle and are cautious. I hope I am able to convey my point here.
God does not make killers, its that person who is given sound judgement and a free choice. How he end up doing with that is where he has succeded or failed and thus only is held responsible for that quite justly. I don't see any problem with that. People around the world strive for justice as there are many injustices that go around the world. If someone has stolen your valuble, you seek justice, someone has killed a love one, you seek justice, someone has committed a war crime, people seek justice. I don't see anythig wrong if the same thing is done by the one who knows all and sees all to the tiniest detail. You may speed and get away once in a while because the cop was on the phone or was taking a lunch break, but when you do anything wrong, it does not go unnoticed from the All Knower's radar. The Only One that will serve the Ultimate Justice.
29:12 And the Unbelievers say to those who believe: "Follow our path, and we will bear (the consequences) of your faults." Never in the least will they bear their faults: in fact they are liars!
4:31 If ye (but) eschew the most heinous of the things which ye are forbidden to do, We shall expel out of you all the evil in you, and admit you to a gate of great honour.
3:31 Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
39:53 Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
53:32 Those who avoid great sins and shameful deeds, only (falling into) small faults,- verily thy Lord is ample in forgiveness. He knows you well when He brings you out of the earth, And when ye are hidden in your mothers' wombs. Therefore justify not yourselves: He knows best who it is that guards against evil.
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 09 November 2008 at 1:04am
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Hi Hasan
I have no argument with there being a need for justice - and restoration of harmony - balance. Again it's really about the factors that might partially determine someone's capacity to murder.
"A child who is the victim of prolonged sexual abuse usually develops low self-esteem, a feeling of worthlessness and an abnormal or distorted view of sex. The child may become withdrawn and mistrustful of adults, and can become http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/teen_suicide - suicidal .
Some children who have been sexually abused have difficulty relating to others except on sexual terms. Some sexually abused children become child abusers or prostitutes, or have other serious problems when they reach adulthood." http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/child_sexual_abuse - http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/child_sexual_abuse
This is only one reason I find the concept of 'free will' nonsensical. A person, child in this instance, is abused/traumatised and left 'damaged'. He/she may later become an abuser him/herself. The murderer may have been seriously abused or traumatised in life, to the extent they don't see the one they murder as human. I am sure there is a psychological term for it.
When I speak of responsibility - I am wondering who is ultimately responsible for the cyble of 'abuse' - murder and mayhem that exists in this world. God may well hold the abuser/murderer responsible for their own choice to act. Whether that choice is 'free' or not is highly debatable. But, in justice, God would have to look further back to what happened the once 'innocent' child, to make of him/her an abuser/murderer.
My problem is not with God's justice. It's with man's sense what is 'just'.
"Said thy Lord to the Angels: I will create �A vicegerent on earth.� They said: �Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? -- Whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?� He said: �I know what ye known not.� (2:30) "
What does this really mean ? Just as the angels knew man had the spirit of God - and prostrated to that when asked. They knew that man would be capable of making mischief and shedding blood. Allah says though, "I know what ye know not". God allows mischief and the shedding of blood - even before it is 'created' - why. What is it about man, the spirit of God in him, that must 'pass the test' of suffering and physical death in this world that it might rise even higher than the angels, as Muhammad could rise higher than Gibril on his night ascension ?
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Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 4:58pm
Hi Gilliver,
I completely understand what you are saying. I hope you understand what I and trying to convey. Someone abusing someone else and that person becoming bad is two part. One, what others did to him, for which they will recieve a just consideration/compensation from the one who knows all. Then second part is their own responsibility for the course that person follows. For that we need the guidance which is provided by God. If such a person is sane, and able to achieve other things in life, he/she must be able to differentiate between right from wrong with that guidance.
People to stop living if they loose sight or hearing or a vital organ. We all go through ups and downs in life, should that give us excuse for leaving our obligations toward God and His creations? If we do, we loose.
The crutches of excuses don't take us too far toward success. God will hold us responsible for our intentions besides our actions. You would think that perheps the abused somehow will not be fairly understood or judged. That would be mare underestimating the power and degree of detail to Judgement of the All Knower, God Almighty.
And to think that somehow God did not percieve these injustices and acts we vitness for me is simply to deny Him as God or just being nieve.
Let me be also clear about what you said regarding " man having God's spirit" that in my belief and understanding never can I assume that somhow I, you, Bush, Osama or Hitler have God's spirit and are part devine. That would be a very misdirected belief. ------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 12:56am
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"Then second part is their own responsibility for the course that person follows."
Yes, I do see what you are trying to convey Hasan, and can understand and agree with most of it. It's this thing about responsibility that I wonder about. And it's naieve, and ignorant, to say that people in certain situations simply 'make excuses' and go on to behave in a bad way anyway. People need, use 'crutches' till they are healed and able to walk again by themselves. If they need crutches - they are not well. You have said yourself that God, as All Knower, knows and there will be understanding and fair judgement. That's all I am trying to say. That we do not know what understanding and fair judgement is - when we are talking of God. Yet we assume all 'murderers' are gonna burn in hell. It's all this God of eternal burning in hell I find very difficult to believe. Threatening people out of hell into heaven. Sounds more like the lying Lucifer to me. IF God is infinite - and infinite in mercy and compassion; then to have so many of his creatures bound for the hellfire means God's compassion and mercy are finite, and god really isn't much of a god. If Hitler could exist as every sub atomic particle that ever has or will exist - and suffer beyond imagination as each and every particle of all that exists, for trillions and trillions and zillions of years, and that was just the beginning. Would that be enough for him. If God's mercy and compassion are infinite - then that mercy and compassion must be infinitely extended to all - for ever. What blinds man to mercy and compassion ? Fear ? I am just pondering the nature of this God Hasan. Even Muhammad agonised over his 'ummah' who would go to 'hell' ? We owe it to God, IF God exists ;-) - to explore God's infinite Goodness. And it's the role of the 'shaitan' to make us look everywhere else - but to that great Goodness, which is ultimately what Heaven is, will be. That's what the story of Job was partly about. Satan was allowed to try Job and make him fearful and despairing of God's goodness.
I don't know what 'God's spirit' - that man is partly made of, as well as clay, really is, Hasan. I am not saying it's divine, that man is divine. But it's naieve too to suggest that it does not imply man to have a far higher dignity, and destiny, than many people might seem to suggest, believe. For me it's about perspective. In realising and understanding the true dignity and calling of the human being - we may come to desire and act more in accordance with that calling and destiny - to show the true 'face' of God to the world - mercy and compassion. Love heals. And I am not talking aiery fairy BS kind of 'love'. To say we are made partly of 'God's spirit' is not that different from the bible saying we are 'made in the image of God'. Man has something of his/her nature that has infinite capacity - as God is infinite. I believe that capacity, image in which we are made - is the capacity to love. I believe we will be judged on how we have loved in this world - and we will judge our selves in the clearer knowledge and love of God, when we 'meet' God through the veil.
Because, 'God is Love'.
Al-wadud. Al-rahman. Al-rahim.
I have spoken and my word is true. ;-) lol
I think that when you have priests, scholars, imams etc interpreting the scriptures for the rest of us, telling us what God's nature is - that can be difficult. Not always - sometimes. We place them in a position of power in so doing - and by the nature of being human - that power is often abused - used, to control and dominate others through fear. Intentionally or not. Even they have their baggage, and their understandings of God/scriputres are filtered through that too. As with all of us. They rationalise and justify why everyone, but themselves, are deserving of hell - gonna burn in hell.
Then there are those who see and know they may be truly deserving of 'hell' - but have come to know a God of real compassion, mercy and love. They have known a God who wishes to save from 'hell' - and saves them from that place, even though they may be most deserving of it; and they seek to know and have known that God who is willing and capable of 'saving' them, and in doing that - willing and capable of 'saving' all others too. Have others know this God through love, not fear. "Perfect love casts out all fear........... " 'cept' the 'holy fear' which is the fear of offending/hurting self, other and God.
Self knowledge is a sure path to God. If we would know God, we must also know our selves - in whose image we are made - that 'God's spirit'.
I am not advocating a big love in Hasan. No consequences or punishments for sin etc. No. There has to be justice and restoration of harmony/balance. I just wonder what those consequences/punishments are in relation to the infinite mercy and compassion of Allah. Are they 'eternal'.
Just thoughts. I am not pushing anything one way or another.
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Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 1:28am
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PS
Where's Ron the adultress ? Am in the mood for a good stoning ;-) lol
I am missing a lot of threads I think. Posts not coming to my inbox, so am getting lost. Nothing new in that :-)
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Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 2:01am
Ron: I agree, but what about
the converse? -- that a God who offers heaven in exchange for worship is a God
of traders; and a God who threatens punishment for disobedience is a God of
prisoners. To me, a true God would extend his grace to all people as
free men, unconditionally. It has always seemed to me that all the
threats and bribes in the Holy Scriptures of the monotheistic religions are
demeaning to the very concept of a loving God.
I
agree with God�s justice discussion that Hasan talked about. Let me express my
view in this way: First of all, God has extended and is extending in all
moments his grace to all people. In this world all blessings are the same from
his prophets to people who does not worship him to people who even has killed
his prophets! ALL people are using the same blessings, the same sun, earth,
air, water, foods, life and so on. But on the last day they will see the
consequences of their own life and acts. On
the other hand, let�s have a different view than justice for a moment. To me as
a Muslim, Allah s.w.t. does not exchange anything for worship. In Islam, the
relationship is totally different from what you think. In Islamic view God does
not need human act of worship nor does He benefit from it nor does He suffer
from human disobedience. In this ideology, God is absolutely free of needs. Therefore,
the offer of heaven is not in exchange of anything being beneficial for Him but
for us. In monotheistic religions God is the most merciful with the
most love towards human being. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 4:15pm
Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents. They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance. And yes, they may be punished if they disobey.
We need to treat them that way because as much as we love them, we know that they cannot always be trusted. They have not yet learned to control their feelings or think long-term. Moreover, they often do not understand the risks involved in certain seemingly innocuous behaviours. So we set up clear (but often arbitrary) rules and penalties (e.g., "eat your peas or you don't get dessert"), easily understood and enforced.
Later,as our children mature and begin doing the right things because they are right instead of out of fear of getting caught, those arbitrary rules are dropped. I would not consider punishing my adult daughter for something, even if I could. I would simply remind her of the real reasons why her behaviour was bad (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you won't be healthy), and leave it at that. And I would love her just as much, whether she changed her behaviour or not, because that's what love is.
It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children. Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour. Telling my young daughter that she must eat her peas or I will punish her "eventually" would be worse than useless.
------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:57am
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Ron: Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents. They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance. And yes, they may be punished if they disobey. Such
a young child is likely to obey only out of fear of punishment (which itself is
because of their lack of understanding as you also said), but loving parents do
not punish to benefit from it nor to feel better. I would simply remind her of the real
reasons why her behaviour was bad (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you
won't be healthy), and leave it at that. In
Monotheistic religions, as an example, God simply reminds people to not worship
pieces of stones carved by human. He reminds them (through His prophets) that the stones are not alive and can not even
defend themselves so it is a waste of time worshiping them. This is a clear simple
real reason, isn�t it? It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children. Through
His last prophet, He has completed what people need to grow otherwise He would not send His last prophet. However, in contrast to this accomplishment, it
seems many people continue to refuse the truth childishly. Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as
soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour. |
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:41pm
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And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for eternity. Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the moment anyone tries to worship it. It wouldn't take long before people got the message. It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific evidence that God exists. As I've said before, if God really cared whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at getting His message out. ------------- Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect. |
Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 7:21am
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Ron: And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to
correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for
eternity. Only
one of His prophet (Nuh (as)) was trying to convince them to correct their
behavior for about 1000 years. After him so many prophets with miracles and
clear evidences and reasons tried in different ways but those who did not want to
change did not, that was that. However, who has told you that in the other
world all of the idolators will be necessarily in Hell for eternity? As much as
I know from Islamic opinion, eternity is not for all of those in Hell. Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to
do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the
moment anyone tries to worship it. It wouldn't take long before people
got the message. It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific
evidence that God exists. As I've said before, if God really cared
whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at
getting His message out. I
would say in such a case God had to destruct everything as people has worshiped
everything from moon, sun and human to animals and other things. |