Don't forget that the crucifixion was performed by the
Roman soldiers - a highly disciplined people. Considering
the miraculous nature of Isa I am not going to to discount
some miracle may have occurred.

But this simplistic explanation makes little sense when
one considers the Roman centurions.

DavidC
================================================

Islamforever, our differences are small compared to our
mutual respect of Jesus and Muhummad. There are many
levels of understanding the meaning of Jesus - far too
many to restrict ourselves to such historical fine
points when we have so much in common.

So many of my Muslim friends here have a respect for
Jesus - I can't name all of them - I'm sure we could all
have a wonderful disucssion. Even in disagreement,
disucssion with you all is a pleasure.

DavidC

=============================================

I think we agree on just about everything. I also believe
Muhummad was a prophet of God, and that there is only
one God.

The Trinity is an unnecessary elaboration. We all know
God can do whatever he wishes. He has appeared on
earth before, in the form of a buring bush which spoke to
Moses. We also know from biblical and Quranic sources
Jesus performed amazing miracles, including raising the
dead and being born of a virgin. As the prophet predicted
to oversee the end of time Jesus is exceptional. A son
(extension) of God? A point for scholars but of little real
world importance.

The Trinity concept overall has confused more people
than it has helped. Many Christian sects ecschew the
entire idea, preferring a more Islamic conception of
monotheism. I think that is probably the more sensible
idea.

DavidC
==============================================

On 12/27/2004 12:24:00 PM, Islamforever >...And God, you
>said can do anything, but lets
>not go to the point where we
>blaspheme and say that he does
>ungodly things as far as
>becoming a man.

You are mistaken in this dichotomy. Whatever god does is godly.

>...If God becomes
>a man he seizes to be God.

So YOU say. God, of course, says differently in the bible.

Beware of making the blaspheme of dictating terms to god.

F
=================================================

Jesus was the ultimate demonstrationof love and humility.

There are Sufi stories about the king who dressed up like
his subjects in order to properly assess the state of his
kingdom.

I do not want to argue with you Islamforever - you
obviously have a personal relationship with Jesus and his
Sharia plays a part in your faith. That makes me joyous,
even if you do not belive as I do. I am only trying to make
my opinion known, and show it is not as absurd as some
maks it out to be.

Islam is a marvelous religion that has taught me much
about Christianity. I would not want to change one iota of
your belief, but only to understand mine.
DavidC

======================================================

It's all about understanding, not convincing. I have always
congratulated those who announced their Islamic
reversions here, because submission to God is so much
more important than the specifics.

DavidC

==============================================

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

�And because of their saying (in boast), �We killed Messiah �Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,� � but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of �Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. �Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]�

[al-Nisa� 4:157]

Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.

It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.

There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.

They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ � did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?

Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?

They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?

Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?

At what hour did this crucifixion take place � was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?

What happened after the so-called crucifixion?

Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, �Truly this man was righteous.�

But John does not know anything about all that!

These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!

How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said in His Book which He has preserved (interpretation of the meaning):

�Do they not then consider the Qur�aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction�

[al-Nisa� 4:82]

Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:

�Then everyone deserted him and fled.�

Mark 14:50 � New International Version (NIV)

Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.

We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah�s prediction that he would be saved from death:

On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:

�I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.�

John 7:33-34 � NIV

Elsewhere he says:

�Once more Jesus said to them, �I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.�

This made the Jews ask, �Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, �Where I go, you cannot come�?�

But he continued, �You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.�

�Who are you?� they asked.

�Just what I have been claiming all along,� Jesus replied. �I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.�

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

So Jesus said, �When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.��

John 8:21-29 � NIV

Then at the end he tells them again:

�For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'�

Matthew 23:39 � NIV, also Luke 13:35

The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.

�But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.�

John 16:32-33

Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):

�Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads

and saying, �You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!�

In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.

�He saved others,� they said, �but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, �I am the Son of God.��

In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.�

Matthew 27:39-44 � NIV

But it seems that Jesus� certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):

�Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, �Sit here while I go over there and pray.�

He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.

Then he said to them, �My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.�

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, �My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.�

Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.

�
He went away a second time and prayed, �My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.�

When he came back, he again found them sleeping, �

So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, �Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners��

Matthew 26:36-45 � NIV

Luke describes the scene and says:

�And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.

�Why are you sleeping?� he asked them. �Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.��

Luke 22:44-46 � NIV

Because of this mockery of the message of Christ � according to their claims � and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God � exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:

�From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, �Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?�--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:38-47 � NIV

==================================================

Mary goes to touch Jesus (pbuh) and he says, John 20: 15, 16,17 " Touch me not,for I have not yet ascended unto my father." In the language of the Jews at that time, it would mean, he has not yet been dead. Moreover, he may have suffered but did not die or was not crucified on the cross, thus falsifying the alleged crucifixion.


Jesus's (pbuh) deciples were overjoyed to see him cause they heard from here say that he had died on the cross and resurrected, and since they know already that resurrected bodies are angelized they thought he was a spirit so they were terrified and thought he was a spirit. So Jesus (pbuh) he clarified that doubt by saying. "Behold its me, handle my hands and see for a spirit has no flesh and bones like you see me have". They we're not eyewitness according to Mark 14:50, " and they all (Deciples) fled and left him at the seen.

Since Jesus Died and resurrected, resurrected bodies are spiritualized, Luke 20:35-36 why would Jesus (pbuh) be afraid of the Jews if he was spiritualized? Meaning that he was not dead, only a fleshly body would be afraid of the Jews thus disguising himself as a Gardener-Carpenter to hide from the Jews. If they see that he didn't really die, they would try again, that's why Jesus (pbuh) remained disguised and forever hiding.


John 19:33-34 " But when they came to Jesus (pbuh) and saw that he was already dead, SAW, that he was already dead, they did not bother to break his bones", and that's a fulfillment of prophecy that his leg will not be broken. 34, "but one soldier thrust his lance into his side, and immediately blood and water flowed and Gushed out," (sign of life) which means that he had life in his body. According to the soldiers he "appeared" to be dead so therefore Jesus' (pbuh) leg would not be of any use only if Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE.

================================================

According to Psalms 118:17-18 which states " I shall not die but live and declare the deeds of the lord." 18 also states, "The lord chastised me harshly, but did not hand me over to death." This verse goes side by side with the prophecy of Matthews 12:38-40.

THE PROOF WE HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR...

In the encyclopedia Biblica, under the article "Cross," Column 960 says, "When the spare was thrust, Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE."

German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin" said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning � that he was ALIVE!

===================================================

I was just wondering DaividC r u a Muslim or not? if u r then alhamdullillah and if u r not y? u believe that Muhammed (pbuh) is a prophet and u believe in the one God. this was just something that i thought about when reading these posts.

============================================

In the encyclopedia Biblica, under the article "Cross," Column 960 says, "When the spare was thrust, Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE."

Christ was not crucified! According to the quran, he was lifted my Allah(god) into the heavens, and guy who chased him, Allah changed this face and impression into Jesus(pbuh). The man that chased Jesus was known to be a Jew, according to the quran, I believe so.

That is why in the quran it mentions that Jesus well someday be sent down from the heavens to complete his life. It makes perfect sense, a man who has not died and sent directly to heaven is just not possible.

Another sensible reason why Christ(pbuh) was not crucified is because, Allah would never let his prophet be tortured and crucified.

For example, Ibraham(phuh) was a prophet of Allah, and when he was young boy, during his time people worshiped idols, so what he did was he took a stick and broke all the idols in the store, when people came to an understanding that Ibraham broke the idols, the people in the town decided to throw in the fire and burn him alive. Just before they threw him in the fire, Allah, cooled down the flames, and Ibraham(pbuh) never burned and people where in shock.

So, if Allah didn't let Ibraham burn in fire, how could Allah let Jesus(pbuh) get crucified. Especially, christians believe that he is the son of god, if that is true according to christians, how can a father let his son get brutally crucified. It doesn't make any sense.

There are so many stories of diffent prophets, that could have suffered a massive pain. And Allah didn't let it happen. So, there is no way he will let Christ suffer the pain of crucification.

===================================================

Yes, it also states in the Bible itself, Acts 1:3 it states, " He presented himself ALIVE to them with many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." which proves Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE. When you are alive you rise, when you die you resurrect.

In Hebrews 5:7, even Paul confirms that his supplications did not fall on deaf ears it states " In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence." Which means he was saved from being killed, Al-hamdulillah.

I have so much answers to this so called death of Christ pbuh that I could give a Four hour lecture on CNN commanding the attention of all christians one given sunday night to really strengthen their belief in our prophet and Messenger, pubh.

============================================

Yes, it also states in the Bible itself, Acts 1:3 it states, " He presented himself ALIVE to them with many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God." which proves Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE. When you are alive you rise, when you die you resurrect.

In Hebrews 5:7, even Paul confirms that his supplications did not fall on deaf ears it states " In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence." Which means he was saved from being killed, Al-hamdulillah.

I have so much answers to this so called death of Christ pbuh that I could give a Four hour lecture on CNN commanding the attention of all christians one given sunday night to really strengthen their belief in our prophet and Messenger, pubh.

=================================================

According to the book of Mark, 15:44, "Pilate was amazed that Jesus (pbuh) was already dead. He summoned the centurion and asked him if Jesus (pbuh) had already died. he knew no man can die within three hours on the cross. Because this crucifixion was to be a slow, lingering death. Pilate knew from his own experience that death on the cross doesn't occur in such a short time. Since it occurred in such time, pilate marvels and just gives the body over to Joseph" of Arimathea. Pilate Knew that Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE because of the time that he was taken down from the cross, but didn't say anything due to the fact that he was in favor of Jesus (pbuh) and that he didn't want them to know that he still had life in his body. And In many respects, the timing of Jesus' death is a bit too opportune.
According to the system in vogue Gospels, pastors, evangelist, preachers and Christians, Jesus was on the cross for three hours, which means that he was taken down from the cross on the third hour. In three hours, a person can't and wouldn't die from being nailed to a cross. its physically impossible for a person to die of crucifixion from being nailed to a cross on the third hour. Moreover Jesus (pbuh) was ALIVE!

================================================

Rather than duplicate the many interesting points made here by all of you, and rather than use this as an opportunity to merely re-state beliefes, I would like to simply offer 2 historical facts that should not be overlooked by anyone who sincerely cares about this topic, as they have a great bearing on the crucifixion story:

1) Crucifixion was reserved for political crimes that infringed on the government's authority. It is impossible that the two other men on crosses alongside Jesus could have been thieves, as theft was not a political crime under Roman law and not punishable by execution. 

2) Crucifixion was one of 3 methods of execution dedicated for those who the government wished to destroy completey - burning to death, feeding to the lions, and crucifixion. What they share in common is that they are intended to deprive anyone from having any remains of the person executed. It is easy to imagine, though horrible, how burinng a body long enough turns even bones to ashes and how feeding to lions causes almost all the body to be consumed. For the same to be true of crucifixion, the body is left on the cross long enough (weeks or more) in order for it to be eaten completely by birds of prey who pick the morsels and fly off with them (and make even more of an example of the offender). The point here being that the body of Jesus or anyone crucified would not have been taken down and given to anyone for burial - crucifixion was specifically selected as the form of execution in order to prevent exactly such a thing.

Therefore the gospel accounts to this effect must be false and fabricated at a later time by people far removed from the political and legal realities of Roman-governed Judea.

I think, DavidC, there is some more to the narration of Abdulsalam, that I may like to add to it, not necessarily stressing over his point. Beside other logical arguments presented above to negate the crucifiction of Jesus (PBUH), this is related to the kind of confusion created in the accounts of biblical author of new testament. Probably you know it or not, that at the time of Jesus, there was another Jew whose name was also Jesus, and was involved in agitating revolts against the romans. He was also held in the same jail at around the same time for ofcourse, be dealt with capitol punishment of time. This fact was recently found by some scholars researching NT from latino-greeco versions. Some how or the other (intentional or unintentional), this fact has been removed from the presently held English versions of NT.

Now coming to the sources of such information that we now have in the form of NT. Out of four famous books of NT, only two are known to be authored from the direct diciples of Jesus. Of course you must be knowing that Mark and Luke were not among the famous 12 disciples. How and when did they get their ministry, no one knows. However, even for the texts from Mathew and John, very serious conerns about their authorship exists in academic circles. So far so, even some of the catholic churches, now admit (proof is on their websites let me know if you need it) that the books we now have on the names of Mathew and John in NT, were not authored by the deciples of Jesus.  I would like, DavidC, you to dewll into this area, if not done as yet, and you will be amazed how weak and poor the grounds are on which these books are considered to be from their purported authors. With this background about the authenticity of the books, I some time wonder how people may even quote them in their discussions. Rest God knows the best. Cheers!

Good people. My husband raised an interesting question yesterday. Historical accounts always describes the tomb that Isa was in as having frankencise and oils. These were tools used to embalm a body. Why then is there a question amongst Christians about whether Christ was just a man and a prophet?

Sincerely,

Tisha

DavidC wrote: Jesus was both fully man and fully God. There is no question. Remember there us much symbolism involved as well. DavidC

Well the Encyclopaedia Biblica (Vol.IV, p.4980) says it all - The New Testament was written by Christians for Christians; it was moreover written in Greek for Greek speaking communities.....

And we all know that historically, Jesus (as) was not a Greek or spoke Greek. He was a Hebrew speaking Palestinian.

Jesus' (as) 72 followers during his life-time used to call themselves 'Nazarene' and not Christians. Jesus' (as) divine message was recorded by his step-brother and scribe, St. Barnabas, and not St. Paul (Saul). The Nazarene believed Jesus (as) to be the 'Promised Messiah - a prophet of God'. It was in 325 CE, when the Bible was 'Canonized' by the pagan Roman emperor and Jesus was declared 'God' - based on Roman 'Pagan mythology'.

Have a good day.

I thought we settled this.. if Jesus The Messiah, son of Mary..  was really Crucified...

and the answer was Yes/No

So the christians say Yes - and the Muslims say No. Around and around we go, where do we stop? No Body Knows! - Whos Right and Whos WRonG? "WE are!!!... The're WRong!" .... said the Muslims and Christians in Unison..

This is as repetative and refreshing as a thread on Masturbation.

or maybe i'm just proving the cynics right...

How about somthing new?... Lets talk about what Jesus the Messiah, Son of Mary - Might have looked liked?!..

-ArabianKnight- wrote: .....So the christians say Yes - and the Muslims say No.

You miss the big spot P.I. - Christians believe that Jesus was 'resurrected' after three days/nights - Jews believe they did with him (jesus) once for all

Rehmat wrote: -ArabianKnight- wrote: .....So the christians say Yes - and the Muslims say No. You miss the big spot P.I. - Christians believe that Jesus was 'resurrected' after three days/nights - Jews believe they did with him (jesus) once for all

You are not going to draw me into this debate.. but I will answer you Specifically Rehmat..

yeah... christians do believe Jesus Son of Mary ressurected after being crucified... and Died on the cross right? .. .. I'm pretty sure i'm right... or all 3 years of comparative religion studies have been wrong?... And yeah.. the Jewish populous at the time tried to Kill(Or killed.. what ever view you might hold) Jesus the Messiah son of Mary - for whatever illgottten - vile , selfish reasons they might have had..

As salam u alaikum,

Nausheen sister thanks alot for the article. I have newly registered here and would love to participate in this forum.

I have a question regarding prophet Isa(pbuh) and his crucified history. As I read this article, I found out(which I also knew frm before) that he was not killed but the other man who got his appearance. But what I haven't got the answer to, is that, when the other man got his appearance, was Isa(pbuh) fled to heaven then? I assume we Muslims believe that he was not dead.. so he must have fled to heaven then, right? Could u provide me with some Ayah/surah which speaks about this certain issue? And i want to read it from the Muslim view and not other religions.

Wa'salam.

-ArabianKnight- wrote: How about somthing new?... Lets talk about what Jesus the Messiah, Son of Mary - Might have looked liked?!..

I have a pretty good idea what Jesus might have looked like      (new thread?)

DavidC wrote: I guess Muslims must be right or the bunny would have some bacon with his pancake. DavidC

Beef Bacon?... Sure Thing!..... Yummy...

-ArabianKnight- wrote: Sure Angel.. BRing it on...

well, I believe Jesus didn't look like a white caucasan (sp?) with blonde hair and blue eye.

I believe He looked more of a middle eastern appearance with dark hair and brown or hazel eyes.    

Angel wrote: -ArabianKnight- wrote: Sure Angel.. BRing it on... well, I believe Jesus didn't look like a white caucasan (sp?) with blonde hair and blue eye. I believe He looked more of a middle eastern appearance with dark hair and brown or hazel eyes.

Actually, the description given of him is of a very Black man with nappy hair and red eyes.

1:14: His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15: And his feet like unto brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Anything burned in a furnace is going to be Black.

Response: There's a catch-22 in that comment, and both sides work in our favor;

• �If a person looked into the claims of Christ's resurrection and concluded they were true, that person did not dispassionately do nothing. They became Christian
• �If they wrote about it, they are considered a Christian writer
• �Those who were opposed to the story of Christ's resurrection would love to be able to furnish proof that the claim was false.
• �The fact that they did not write indicates they could not prove it false.

So both sides work to proof the truth of the resurrection of Christ.

http://www.catholicevidence.org/docs/divinchr.html - http://www.catholicevidence.org/docs/divinchr.html

Peace and Understanding,

Patty

Patty wrote: Question: If Christ really rose from the dead, the event would be in secular literature, and it's not. The only reports are from Christian writers. Response: There's a catch-22 in that comment, and both sides work in our favor; �If a person looked into the claims of Christ's resurrection and concluded they were true, that person did not dispassionately do nothing. They became Christian �If they wrote about it, they are considered a Christian writer......

and exactly who were these christian writers? You mean St. Paul? I don't think he ever met Jesus in his life time what to write about him. Others, like the gospel of John or Matthew are now known to be the authored by the anonymous personalities and not the disciples of Jesus. Rest of the two authors of the gospels are by default not among the 12 disciples of the Jesus. So who were they other than St. Paul? That is the reason we see Jesus in these books only through the monocule of St. Paul and not what he himself has said.

JohnDM wrote: Please understand that God, is the God of History, meaning God is the God of Time and so the proof of the Crucifixion is the date of the Crucifixion ending at 3pm Friday, April 7th AD30 on Passover eve. And 3,900 years (1300 x 3) after the creation of Adam, and Adam was filled with the breath of life some 50 days later, so that the first day of the Church was 3,900 years after Adam received the power. Adam became a Traitor one day after his wife Eve, at 12,881 days after his creation and receiving the breath of life, so on September 2nd 3836BC Adam became a Traitor. From the conception of Mary by the Holy Ghost to the death of Jesus was 12,880 days and 12,881 days to his full day down in Hades, once called Paradise. And this is just the start of how the calculations in time fit together like a jigsaw puzzle in time.

Brother JohnDM,

I think 'traitor' is a wrong word for people like Prophets. Don't you think so? If I commit a mistake, would I become a traitor? I don't think so, especially if I repent and then Allah forgive me. According to Islam Prophets are no ordinary people. They are specially chosen to spread the message of God to His creation. Prophet Adam, being the first human creation of God, has a special status where it was him to whom God asked all the angels to bow down to him. All did bow to Adam except the Satan. For this reason, satan got enmity with humans. BTW, bowing to Adam was only to show his superiority over all creations of God and not for worship reasons.

Regarding your statement of "conception of Mary by the Holy Ghost", suffice is to say that it is a lie against God or against the angel Gaberil or what ever you imply to mean Holy Ghost. God doesn't need to obey human laws to create anything. He simply says "Be" and thats it all shall be done automatically.

Regarding Jigsaw puzzle, I can only say that puzzle is only in your mind (one in three or three in one etc), the muslims don't have any puzzle about identity of Jesus, so what to talke about solving it? Cheers!

JohnDM wrote: The spirit of the Holy Ghost is the LAMB of God. And the reference number for the LAMB of God is 1288 and there were 12,880 days from conception of Mary by the Holy Ghost at 2:30am January 1, 6BC to 3:03pm Friday, April 7, AD30 when Jesus Christ gave back the Holy Ghost to God just before he died. So the soul of Jesus was left naked for the spirit body was gone, and so the soul of Jesus entered the prison in Hades where he preached. Then come early Sunday morning the Spirit of God came down into Hades and raised up the soul of Jesus which entered his natural body which came back to life. Jesus then went up to Heaven and handed God some drops of his blood in the Temple of God to show the ultimate sacrifice had been made. He was then given back the Holy Ghost, and returned to Earth. So his natural body was now the Temple of the Holy Ghost as are many but not all Christians.

What a story!! But from where you got this one? Believe me, I never heard of it before. However, who got this story made up by traveling with Jesus all through these places? Secondly, the story says Jesus went to Hell (Hades) after he died and yet you consider him god?? This is extremely strange view; never heard of before, not even the polythiests could be imagined saying this.

He had received the Holy Ghost at his baptism on his 32nd birthday on October 1, AD27 when John the Baptist baptised him.

Whose birthday are you talking about? Kindly check your record; shouldn't it be the christmas? Are you trying to bring the result out of nowhere by stretching your math too hard to reach the final number you already assumed?

... The make up of the LAMB of God is a lamb + a lion + 7 eyes, the burning lamps of God, and 7 horns and all add up to 1288. But then Eve's number for he sin is 12,880 And the weight of the Statue of Freedom on the Capitol dome Washington D.C. is 14,985 pounds or 666 x 15 x 1.5 (this kind of freedom is death). And 14,985 pounds as tons is 6.689732143 tons and cubed thrice and divided by 1.5 is 1.28808470e+22. And the reference number for Adam is 12881 and Eve at 12880 so together as one unit at 12880.5 and so 666 is seen in the make up and the coming together of Adam and Eve both a fallen man and a feman. And so on

Oh, I see what you mean here.. Probably you assume that we all got bored by talking serious stuff about christianity. So its high time to take a break with your humourous jokes. keep it up with your jokes, probably you may get bored yourself within this stuff. Cheers!

JohnDM, I have one big word...

Huh ??

John DM,

I think its a waste of time to quote and prove something from a book that have a big problem with being credible. I may have considered  what you have said, if I had not known the book. I have read it, it has many fundamental inconsistancies. You won't sign a bank document if you found an error on it?

Hasan