the atonement
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Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
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Printed Date: 21 November 2024 at 2:49pm
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Topic: the atonement
Posted By: Nazarene
Subject: the atonement
Date Posted: 03 October 2008 at 10:23pm
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today atonement means " at one " or "to make amends."
but in the time of jesus the atonement ment something far different it ment to " cover up "
by proclaiming jesus as your atonement this is what you have made him out to be ,YOUR "fatted calf".
you see the atonement was a ritual , you got your sacrifice ( bull to bird depending how wealthy you were) and went in front of a priest or rabbi. you symbolicly passed your sins onto the animal,then the animal was killed thus cleansing you " by the blood" of another. "A FATTED CALF"
so the next time we'er in church praising jesus as dieing "for" our sins and being cleansed by the "blood"of christ. he's your fatted calf.
sounds like a sick and twisted thing to do to me. and a false teaching.
but christains like him hanging on the cross like it's a good thing. their fatted calf. unacountable.
jesus says in ALL the n/t gospels :
only when YOU BARE YOUR OWN CROSS can you follow me.
hebrews 6:
6) if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%206&version=31#fen-NIV-30035b - b ]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
repent and sin no more.he says
love leland
------------- love for all conquers all |
Replies:
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 5:42pm
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more on the topic: jesus is not an atonement!! read more from phillip. 8. The Christ came! Some indeed he ransoms, yet others he saves, yet for others he atones�.Those who were alienated he ransomed,� he brought them to himself. And he saved those who came to him.
These he set as pledges in his desire. Not only when he appeared did he appoint the soul as he desired, but since the day of the world's origin he appointed the soul.
At the time he desires he came first to fetch it, since it was placed among the pledges.
It came to be under the bandits and they took it captive.
Yet he saved it, and he atoned for both the good and the evil in the world.
what do those who call him thier atonment recive above??and as we read this last line he saves [the good ] and for [the evil ] he is thier atonement.
also jesus declared blood sacrifices useless and nulivoid , false practace BEFORE he was put on the cross. ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 1:01pm
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more on the ransom:
HEBREWS 9:
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=9&version=31#fen-NIV-30101b - b ] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.
12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. ( the ritural of atonement )
14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=9&version=31#fen-NIV-30104c - c ] so that we may serve the living God!
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance�now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. In the time of jesus [ransom] ment that a " family" member has payed your "past" debt.
also it seems this verse in hebrews supports the one in phillp.
------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 28 October 2008 at 4:49pm
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what is this " BLOOD OF CHRIST " ?
as i know first hand orthodox christains think of this as thier " atonement ." literaly .
but i prefer the understanding of phillip:
"Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Co 15:50). What is this which will not inherit? This which is on us. But what is this, too, which will inherit? It is that which belongs to Jesus and his blood. Because of this he said "He who shall not eat my flesh and drink my blood has not life in him" (Jn 6:53). What is it? His flesh is the word, and his blood is the Holy Spirit . He who has received these has food and he has drink and clothing. I find fault with the others who say that it will not rise. Then both of them are at fault. You say that the flesh will not rise. But tell me what will rise, that we may honor you. You say the Spirit in the flesh, and it is also this light in the flesh. (But) this too is a matter which is in the flesh, for whatever you shall say, you say nothing outside the flesh. It is necessary to rise in this flesh, since everything exists in it ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 29 October 2008 at 6:23pm
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as you have read jesus did not come for the purpose to DIE FOR OUR SINS!!
he delivered to us the message of salvation. but i say alot of that message has been lost to christains becuse of that way of thinking.
christains are taught to focus on the death of jesus. not his life for salvation. it is what he brought in life that saves us. but the church surpresses it. because if you aquire it, you have no need for the church.
i also say the evil in the pagen roman church did much to distroy jesus's true teachings.
i also say that god may have sent muhammad to set things right after the church did what it did. ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 October 2008 at 5:09pm
Nazarene,
very intersting. You know this is how I use to tell those who use to tell me that Jesus came to die for my sins. I use to tell them that it was his life that was worth more because he came to guide mankind and he fulfilled his duty to convey God's word to the mankind, so you ocould be saved. Otherwise, he would not be preaching anything else but to say, " don't worry, I will die for you and your sins"
Well, Christians don't have anyting more left to sell, if you take out the blood sacrifice from their doctrine.
I know of some of them that believe that if they do bad and wrong they will be punished for that. While others preach that all your sins are forgiven and you will go to paradise if you believe that Jesus is God/ god's son, and died for your sin and paid for them by his blood. The Christian dilema of this opposing view is embedded into their source, the Bible where both views are present.
It was the life of all prophets that brought guidance and salvation from God for mankind, not their deaths or blood as some believe the atonement of sins only through blood sacrifices. Also this idea is embedded in the Bible too along with its oppossing views, in the same book.
No person can pay for anothers sin, neither with blood, gold or wealth. It is only through following God's commands.
5:15 O people of the Book! there hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). there hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-
Take care,
Hasan
------------- The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62 |
Nazarene wrote:Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 17 February 2009 at 4:14am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmKZb7I8hg&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmKZb7I8hg&feature=related ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 18 February 2009 at 6:31pm
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peace you know a thought jumped in my head the other day. if jesus's death was pre-ordained { meant to happen no matter what } why didn't jesus say: forgive them father, they only do what they must.this response seems fits the pre-destained way of thinking alot better than:
forgive them father, thay know not what thay do! you know this [ ! ] means something .
leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 22 March 2009 at 12:04am
peace!
jesus states himself he was sent too deliver the MESSAGE!
Luke 4:43 (New International Version)43But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.leland ------------- love for all conquers all |
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 23 March 2009 at 1:03pm
peace!
John 15:3 ,3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.{ jesus says we are cleansed by the word NOT the blood of the cross!!}
John 12:47-50 ,47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."{ here it is plainly stated the WORD the MESSAGE leads to eternal life }------------- love for all conquers all |