Interfaith Dialogue - Woman's head covering....

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Woman's head covering....

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Description: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
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Topic: Woman's head covering....

Posted By: honeto
Subject: Woman's head covering....
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 2:04pm

Why is it that, no one had a issue with the Nuns' head and body covering in the West, but when it comes to a Muslima covering her head with a scarf, it's raising tentions?

Double standard, racism, fear or all of the above?

It is not surprising for a Muslim to know that the people of the book were not just believing same as a Muslim today, but they lived pretty similar lives as far as their daily obligations were concerned.

It may be surprising and quite contrasting for those who claim to hold and follow the earlier scriptures (now known as the Bible) that the very people they hold as an example in their belief did in fact followed the same dress code as Muslims do and try to live by.

This following quote from the Bible may seem strange to those who profess to follow it, but not so to a Muslim.

Genesis 24:62 Now Isaac had come from Beer Lahai Roi, for he was living in the Negev. 63 He went out to the field one evening to meditate, ^{and as he looked up, he saw camels approaching. 64 Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel 65 and asked the servant, "Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?"
"He is my master," the servant answered. So she took her veil and covered herself.}

Here is the command in the Quran that does not look any different than what Rebekah did. There are many women here in the West, in the so called Judeo-Christian lands. How many of those women you see following Rebekah's example and taking their veils and covering themselves in front of a stranger?

33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more conducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. But God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace!

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Replies:

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 2:39am

Asalam Alaikum,

Let me try and answer that from someone from a different perspective...

Nuns are not very populated here... not that many left... Catholic church cannot recruit nuns and priests... life has changed here. Alot of people hardly ever see a nun here so the comparison does not hold alot of sway.

People see that one chooses to be a nun or a monk at an older age... and you go through years of training before being accepted. (Yes one can be rejected.) And it is a Catholic thing� not from all Christian denominations.

I think that people view the hijab, less in US then in Europe as a symbol of "otherness." People all over the world have issues of "otherness." I know people who live in Pakistan or having traveled there where the folks don't like you to wear any other clothes by Shawal Kameez. Not just for its modesty.. but more cultural. So conformity is expected.

I think this is true all over.. people expect some level of conformity, or shall I say are comforted by it. You get less of an issue in a large, diverse place like in Wash DC area. Cause how does one define �conformity?� But you head into other areas� and people are often unsure about �different� people. Then you have these �different� people separate themselves for cultural and religious reasons.. and then well� people feel rejected.

I think that it is a fine line for Muslims living in a nonMuslim world. Because we should support our communities and yet much of the community is �corrupt.� Say for instance in a smaller town the local �fun� is playing Bingo on a Wednesday night (yes I grew up in smaller town USA). Well Muslims won�t do that.. so� how do they begin to socialize and get to know their neighbors?

Acceptance and rejection are fine lines. For instance, I think that for many reverts myself included, struggle enormously with the Muslim culture and the women. We often do not think like they do. We often are not accepted cause we are not Turkish, Egyptian, Pakistani etc. Who we can talk to in a general way is nonMuslims.. cause our mental processes and focuses are similar if not religiously. But here in the US, religion is considered a private matter so its not often discussed.

Plus here in US, and I am sure this may be true in Europe, people are not fond of people who tend to be �overzealous� religious people. Many people have had Evangelical Christians tell us we are off to hell for not believing in Jesus. �In your face� religion is how shall I say, not too popular. I have seen over-enthused Muslims talk to nonMuslims about �finding Allah� without knowing it really turns people off. So being so �outward� with religion can be difficult. As once was said in a good piece in a magazine I read.. the difference between west and east so to speak is that here, religion is private and sex is public, in �east� religion is public and sex is private.

So honestly, I don�t think it has anything to do with religion. It has to do with cultural norms. The paradigm and views are just different. So whenever I see that argument I know it won�t make much of an impact. Yes there is �freedom of religion� so to speak. But people just want you to keep in private. Not make a big deal about it. Many people have never seen a nun or they are all older that 60.

I hope that helps you understand. And of course these are my thoughts..

Hayfa

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 12:53pm

So true Hayfa, I appreciate your thoughtful response. It is true you don't see that many nuns, plus even nuns's covering has evolved, and the skirt got a lot higher. You are very right about the "otherness", we all have that in us about the others. The thing is we (the Americans) do think and claim to be more than the rest of the world, the best in everything. With that in mind I can understand ingorance of mostly uneducated Pakistanis' views, but similar ignorance coming out of a "civilized" nation's masses is beyond my understanding.

You are right about Muslims' not participating in community around us here in the West, simply becaues it negates our belief. What is a common fun, i.e. dance and concerts, bingo as you mentioned, weekend drinking parties, going to the casino and club etc. Simply and truthfully we can't make concessions to our faith and belief. However, we must find alternate ways to fill that gap by being part of our own community of like minded people.

You are right again that this whole thing has notheing to do with religion rather culture, and when you mix that with "otherness" you got a big challange.

Thanks for your thoughts. I think it all comes down to the ignorance and lack of knowledge of one's own belief more than anything else.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 3:37am

Salaams,

There is a difference, in my mind between "educated," "ignorant" and "worldly." I would say the vast majority of people in the US havea basic education but are not worldly by any means. Most never leave the borders on their state, let alone the country. Or they get as far as Florida and Disneyworld.

I think Europeans are more "worldly" as they are in a more diverse region of the world and they have many countries in a smaller space. They may have more issues due ot geography alone...as more people in smaller space and asl due to different immigration policies.

The US is a hard country to immigrate to. And the US is huge so fewer issues of "closeness," you can find your niche and no one really knows or cares you are there.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 10:46am

The Catholic nuns/sisters in Pakistan still wear the traditional head-covering. With the black dress...

So do the ones in India(theres is white tho i think), not the Sub-Continent traditional viel, the typical Nun one . . .

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 10:48am

Hayfa wrote:

As once was said in a good piece in a magazine I read.. the difference between west and east so to speak is that here, religion is private and sex is public, in �east� religion is public and sex is private.

Interesting observation! and quite true . . .

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 1:12pm

Yes, it was quite noticeable to me. And made so much sense where people feel conflicted. Muslims are quite affronted by all the open sex-ads, dating etc. and yet you'll offend people if you stick "religion" in peoples' faces.

It describes a mindset for sure. People think each "camp" goes overboard.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 5:20pm

well i think it's a wonderful way to dress. i'm trying to talk my wife to dress like muslim women. i belive it to be most noble. i to live in u.s.a. and find our ways in this matter most distrbing. little children(girls) dress like harlets. boys show little respect them. cause they show no respect for themselves. pitty, shameful. where are the parents? well their the ones picking the close out for them , thats even more shameful.

leland

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love for all conquers all

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 3:29am

Orthodox Women in Eastern Europe still cover their head when going into a Church. I still own my headscarves from my days as an Orthodox Christian.

Its Western Liberal Feminism and Secular society... sheer hypocrisy. My only problem is when its forced. I loved my scarves, but I was never in danger of being punished by beatings for not wearing it.

Muslimahs in their hijabs are beautiful, I love to see them. Unfortunately, all too often what we see are pictures of women in Burqas being beaten by men and that is the image too many have been fed.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 October 2008 at 3:47am

"All too often?"

Sis Angela . . . I believe the only such pictures you have seen is of Afghanistan. . . and I'm sorry, but the majority, esp. the Taliban were an uneducated illetrate bunch.

Even the Saudi govt, which is considered pretty strict, never resort to 'beating' women . . . Niether do they in Iran . . . which again is perhaps the only nation where it is required by law to wear a hijab. What you saw in pix - was an anomaly. Nothing that can be passed of as ' all too often'.

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 2:29am

Sis Chrysalis,

The all too often was a statement against the Western Media. They show these images from Afghanistan under the Taliban as representative of all Muslim nations which is pure distortion.

Saudi does require the hijab by law and does have public beatings for those CONVICTED of crimes. Which while I disagree with, at least there was some semblance of a trial before hand.

I have learned a lot from my time here at IC and my friendships with the Muslimahs here. I no longer believe the rhetoric fed to me by the media.

My issues with Iran and Saudi are more secular problems. Treatment of foreigners and minorities, etc. Iran is that kid who wants everyone to think they are tough, but really they are very insecure.

The headscarf is not a purely Islamic thing. Its just that Muslimahs find it a religious obligation, where Christians have been taught for the last millenia or so that its no longer required of us. I find that curious when dealing with my old Church that still has women cover their heads and my new church in which I must wear a head covering while in temple.

Wonder if it will ever return to fashion among Christian women?

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 7:06am

Oh! Sorry for misunderstanding then, sis.

Oh, and tho I dont find myself agreeing with some Saudi policies - the public beatings are for crimes done. . . which are of various natures. They arent even that injurious - more of a public humiliation - that hurt the pride, and embarass the perpetrator. I dont think they carry out the punishment unless there is proof - they do have trials.

For e.g. eve-teasing is seriousley dealt with. Which I personally quite like, for it works. A woman would resort to a slap on the face, her partner/brother is also likely to get into a physical brawl with an eve-teaser - to me its the same thing, its just that the State is doing that.

And yes, you are quite right, the 'Hijab' is not an 'Islamic Innovation'. The Hijab has been there since Adam and Eve's time. . . (ofcourse, Muslims believe it was Islam all along the way.) And was practised by modest women in history . . . who were not neccessarily Muslim.

The Japanese culture had similar standards of modestly, just without the headscarf, even wrist exposure was considered scandalous. Hindu women observed similar standards, they covered the head even (tho left the belly bare :p) Jewish women are supposed to do the same thing . . . I am sure there must be more cultures that share the same standards.

Well, if you can Britney or Lindsay to wear it, I think it can return to fashion among Christian women . . .

Angelina Jolie wore one, when she was in Pakistan, visiting the earthquake victims. . . maybe we shd circulate that pic around . . .

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 18 October 2008 at 5:32pm

Many Catholic women still wear the head covering, and many who have not worn the mantilla for years are now returning to it. I have a white lace mantillla. The nuns (sisters) for the most part, still wear the habit, which includes the head covering and the full length gown, stockings, etc. I am a devout Roman Catholic, and I am pleased that since Pope Benedict was elected to the papacy, we are returning to the old Church....Latin mass and all!!!!!

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 October 2008 at 4:15pm

PattyaMainer wrote:

Many Catholic women still wear the head covering, and many who have not worn the mantilla for years are now returning to it. I have a white lace mantillla. The nuns (sisters) for the most part, still wear the habit, which includes the head covering and the full length gown, stockings, etc. I am a devout Roman Catholic, and I am pleased that since Pope Benedict was elected to the papacy, we are returning to the old Church....Latin mass and all!!!!!

Patty,

you probably would know this then. I have seen some nuns wearing/ covering in a way that you only see their face and may be hands but more comon now I have also seen nuns with shorter skirts, may be just below the knees, more open neck and short sleeves.

Is there a dictate about that, and or who makes the decision to as far as any changes in a nuns' body covering/dress code?

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 7:22am

honeto wrote:

Patty,

Is there a dictate about that, and or who makes the decision to as far as any changes in a nuns' body covering/dress code?

Hasan

The more modern (although still quite modest) dress for nuns today would ultimately be left to the Holy Father, Pope Benedict. Although he may allow some leeway regarding a nun's "habit", the order to which she belongs would also have rules regarding her dress, veil, stockings, etc., to which she would have to adhere. The "Mother Superior" can enforce the code of dress for her nuns. Mother Theresa and the Sisters of Charity wore and still wear the long habits with head coverings, stockings, etc., as do the Sisters of Mercy and MANY others. I think this is a good thing. Although I have know plenty of nuns who are teachers, nurses, cloistered and meditative. Some wear the more modern clothing, but even so, they are extremely devout and love our God and our Lord very deeply.

Patty

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 5:19pm

Thanks Patty for your reply.

Can you please also elaborte briefly on how one becomes a nun? And what are all the steps and ceremonies in becoming a nun. And why is it that those serving in this capacity have to leave their family life and cannot have a family of their own?

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 4:37am

Here's a picture of some Orthodox Christian Nuns. Without their crosses one could pass one on the street and think she was wearing a chador.

http://www.kurskroot.com/nuns-sm.jpg - http://www.kurskroot.com/nuns-sm.jpg

I remember always seeing Mary and other Female saints draped in head coverings.

I have to laugh. I didn't wash my hair the other night and wore my headscarf to work. A dear Japanese lady I work with asked if I had become Muslim. Tongue

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 6:54am

honeto wrote:

Thanks Patty for your reply.

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

Sorry it took me so long to get back with you....I did not see this post. I have a website which I believe will possibly answer your questions much more clearly than I could. The sisters (nuns) freely choose to devote their lives to Christ through prayer, meditation, and do not want anything to interfere with this relationship. If they married, they could not devote nearly as much time to centering their life around Christ. I believe personally that God calls different people for different purposes. I feel I was called to be a wife, mother, and grandmother. Not all are called for this lifestyle. I admire those who feel called by God to enter a life of celibacy, chastity, and obedience to Him.

http://www.mississippiabbey.org/Becoming_a_nun?p=62 - http://www.mississippiabbey.org/Becoming_a_nun?p=62

I hope this helps answer your questions!

God's Peace,

Patty

"And when wicked men abuse and hate you all because of me, blessed, blessed are you." ~~ Jesus

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 7:00am

Angela wrote:

Here's a picture of some Orthodox Christian Nuns. Without their crosses one could pass one on the street and think she was wearing a chador.

http://www.kurskroot.com/nuns-sm.jpg - http://www.kurskroot.com/nuns-sm.jpg

I remember always seeing Mary and other Female saints draped in head coverings.

I have to laugh. I didn't wash my hair the other night and wore my headscarf to work. A dear Japanese lady I work with asked if I had become Muslim. Tongue

Hi Angela! Thanks for sharing this photo!! It is really lovely. It reminds me of something Fr. Benedict Groeschel said on EWTN Live on one Sunday night not too long ago. He described a Muslim woman's dress, the burka, and then followed up by saying...."now you can see there is no reason to object to a lady's belief in what to wear, I could easily be describing many of our nuns." So true, how quick we are to judge others by what they wear or how they dress.

Peace, Angela,

Patty

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 5:25pm

PattyaMainer wrote:

honeto wrote:

Thanks Patty for your reply.

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

http://www.mississippiabbey.org/Becoming_a_nun?p=62 - http://www.mississippiabbey.org/Becoming_a_nun?p=62

I hope this helps answer your questions!

God's Peace,

Patty

"And when wicked men abuse and hate you all because of me, blessed, blessed are you." ~~ Jesus

Hi Patty,

thanks for your reply and the link. It is very interesting how through belief someone would dedicate their life and leave what is norm for others.

Now, clear this up please for me. Some time ago I heard that there is a ceremony when becoming a Nun in which much like a wedding the bride (Nun) is married to Jesus?? Is that true or just a fabrication?

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 05 November 2008 at 6:15pm

honeto wrote:

PattyaMainer wrote:

honeto wrote:

Thanks Patty for your reply.

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

http://www.mississippiabbey.org/Becoming_a_nun?p=62 - http://www.mississippiabbey.org/Becoming_a_nun?p=62

I hope this helps answer your questions!

God's Peace,

Patty

"And when wicked men abuse and hate you all because of me, blessed, blessed are you." ~~ Jesus

Hi Patty,

thanks for your reply and the link. It is very interesting how through belief someone would dedicate their life and leave what is norm for others.

Hasan

Hi Hasan,

No, this is a common myth/mistake. She is dedicating her life to Jesus (whom I am pretty sure you understand we believe is also God). A sister (nun) is sometimes referred to as a "bride of the Church", but this does not mean she is actually married, like a man and wife, to Jesus. Not in any way whatsoever. It is a "figure of speech" only. Any other meaning or suggestion that she is truly married to Jesus is a fabrication only.

God's Peace,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 2:13pm

Thanks Patty,

that is very interesting. Tell us more about the ceremony, I heard its just like a wedding ceremony with ring and vows?? does she also wear white bridal dress, or that varys??

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 4:07pm

honeto wrote:

Thanks Patty,

that is very interesting. Tell us more about the ceremony, I heard its just like a wedding ceremony with ring and vows?? does she also wear white bridal dress, or that varys??

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

I have this video to offer. I think it shows what transpires. It is very touching to me as a Catholic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW3OXzeRis&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW3OXzeRis&feature=related

God's Peace,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 11:10pm

There can only be One God, the Creator of the Whole Universe, who created the furthest of the planets and the tiniest of the veins, The One who knows what is the best for His beloved servants. From the time of Adam till now, His laws are the best of laws, that can fit any time and any place. And putting on a veil for a woman, is a sign of His Love towards all His female creations.

A woman who calls herself a Muslimah would always want to please her Creator. Similar like a nun who wants to please Jesus by wearing a veil.

Putting on a hijab is a sign of a woman�s love towards her Creator Allahurabbul alameen - Allah The God of the whole universe. The benefits of this action will not add or lessen the Glory of Allah - He is Self Sufficient. The reward will return to the person herself.

The hikmah or wisdom behind wearing a veil.

AllahuRabbul Alameen - The God of the Whole Universe had created men with nafs - lusts/passion/desire that starts with the eyes (sight) while the nafs of a women starts from the skin (touch). A man�s lusts gets easily aroused at the sight of a woman�s body. Some men love to see the shape or figure of a woman, some love to see the neck, some admire the hair, some love to see the backside, while most love to ogle the two hillock of a woman. Hence Allah Our Creator had given this law in order to protect man from fornication and woman from being raped or molested.

For a woman, lusts or passion starts from the skin or touch. We woman easily get aroused when being caressed, because this is our weakness. Hence the covering of our skin is to protect ourselves from being subdued by our own lusts or passion from any stranger. Our body does not belong to any man. Our precious body belongs only to our husbands, not to any Tom, Dick or Harry to salivate in private. If by looking at sexy women, some men got aroused, these women are committing a sin.

Allah indeed is Al=Aleem - Most Knowing. MashaAllah!

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 09 November 2008 at 5:59am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

A woman who calls herself a Muslimah would always want to please her Creator. Similar like a nun who wants to please Jesus by wearing a veil.

The hikmah or wisdom behind wearing a veil.

Allah indeed is Al=Aleem - Most Knowing. MashaAllah!

I agree with all you said, except I know that God also gave all of us self-discipline. Men "can" become just as lustful by looking at a magazine and finding a photo of an attractive woman in it. I do not agree with women are committing a sin, unless they are deliberating provoking the men to become attracted to them in a lustful manner. The fault lies strictly with the men who have failed to use their God-given self discipline.

And yes, our bodies do belong ONLY to our husbands if we are married. We have NO control over how men lust over women in their minds or in private.....that sin is on their souls alone.

Peace to you,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 5:02am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Allah indeed is Al=Aleem - Most Knowing. MashaAllah!

You know, I don't wear a scarf everyday. But I certainly don't let men other than my husband touch me. I don't think that uncovering one's hair suddenly leads to being caressed by strangers.

I also notice that there are many who forget the tantalization of the forbidden. Some men will obsess over what they cannot have. Stalkers and rapists. They would hurt a woman in full burqa just as fast as a woman in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. There are cases of serial rapist/murderers who were raised in strict homes.

The key is not just the headscarf. Its the mindset. One must be chaste in their mind. Being modest in one's clothing can help that mindset, but its not a solution. Avoiding racy movies, tv shows and music can help, but its not a solution. No matter what you wear or where you live, Chastity and Modesty are very much centered in the persons head first, then expressed on the outside.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 6:32am

I agree with all you said, except I know that God also gave all of us self-discipline.

Patty, self-discipline is not inborn. It is something that we have to acquire, be it ourselves or sowed by our parents.

Men "can" become just as lustful by looking at a magazine and finding a photo of an attractive woman in it.

Correct! Because as I mentioned, their lusts/passion/desire starts from the eyes (sight). No wonder phonographic websites are mostly visited by men.

I do not agree with women are committing a sin, unless they are deliberating provoking the men to become attracted to them in a lustful manner.

Right. Agreed. However, in general the way the western women dressed up, mostly are provoking men�s desire, even if the women did not realise it.

The fault lies strictly with the men who have failed to use their God-given self discipline.

It takes two hand to clap. Islam taught women to dress up modestly, and for men to lower their gaze when they communicate in public. It is not fair for women to dress up modestly, if the men are given freedom to ogle women, even if they are fully covered.

And yes, our bodies do belong ONLY to our husbands if we are married. We have NO control over how men lust over women in their minds or in private.....that sin is on their souls alone.

Any men can lust over any women, but let it not be ours. At least when the men sin, it was not because of us.

Peace be to you too.

Nur

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 6:48am

You know, I don't wear a scarf everyday. But I certainly don't let men other than my husband touch me. I don't think that uncovering one's hair suddenly leads to being caressed by strangers.

But we certainly do not know what the men are thinking of when they see women especially the ones with beautiful hair. By the way, no woman in the rightful mind will let a stranger caress herself. Wearing a hijab is just a protection. Better safe than sorry.

I also notice that there are many who forget the tantalization of the forbidden. Some men will obsess over what they cannot have. Stalkers and rapists. They would hurt a woman in full burqa just as fast as a woman in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. There are cases of serial rapist/murderers who were raised in strict homes.

Do not talk about stalkers and rapists. They are people in the extreme end. Phsychologically unstable. We are talking about just any Tom, Dick or Ali.

The key is not just the headscarf. Its the mindset. One must be chaste in their mind. Being modest in one's clothing can help that mindset, but its not a solution. Avoiding racy movies, tv shows and music can help, but its not a solution. No matter what you wear or where you live, .

Wearing a hijab is not just about protecting women themselves, but most importantly, because of our love to Our Creator. You would do anything for someone you love don�t you Angela? Same here. For the love of Our Creator, amal makruf, nahi munkar - meaning uphold good, oppose evil.

Chastity and Modesty are very much centered in the persons head first, then expressed on the outside.

Then, it is not wrong that most Western women has got no chastity or modesty in their head, because it is being expressed in the outside.

I would like to correct you here Angela, Chastity and Modesty are very much centered in the persons heart or soul first - where God looks at.

Salam.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 8:09am

Hijaab has many reasons etc. Some of them obvious, others not. It has many aspects to it also.

One aspect is that it is the IDENTITY or LABEL of a Muslimah...Just one of the aspects that tends to get lost amongst talks of sexuality. Just wanted to add. . .

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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 9:44am

Men are susceptible to the visuals. It is just the way they are. Does this make them lacking in self-discipline per say or will end doing some horrible crime.

But hijab helps men to be self-disciplined. Its like people should surround themselves with people who share the same values and a positive environment.

There is this homeless guy, named Willie who I say hi to and see if he needs help. One day he says to me, �I�ve been looking you, etc etc.� We start chatting and he says, �when will I get to see all that hair underneath that scarf?� I laughingly respond, �Never.�

I agree we really don�t know what men think about. Clearly the hair has some appeal. Many men loose their so clearly they don�t need it.. lol

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 11:42am

Hayfa wrote:

Men are susceptible to the visuals. It is just the way they are. Does this make them lacking in self-discipline per say or will end doing some horrible crime.

But hijab helps men to be self-disciplined. Its like people should surround themselves with people who share the same values and a positive environment.

I agree we really don�t know what men think about. Clearly the hair has some appeal. Many men loose their so clearly they don�t need it.. lol

Very good, Hayfa!! You are so right about men's hair (or lack of it!) LOLOL!

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 12:41pm

Ok here is where I have to come in as a male.

Women are just as susceptible to seduction as men are. There are Muslim women who look at half-naked men who are muscular and swoon amongst themselves, but we have to admit in conservative Muslim societies the emphasis is more on the women than men this is FACT.

"But hijab helps men to be self-disciplined. Its like people should surround themselves with people who share the same values and a positive environment."

So you are telling me I need a woman to be in head to toe covering just to be self-discipline? Self-Discipline is a developmental virtue that men ought to have. Saying hijab helps men to have self-discipline just allocates blame to women if a man falls into temptation because a woman is not Islamically covered.

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 1:00am

Israfil wrote:

Self-Discipline is a developmental virtue that men ought to have. Saying hijab helps men to have self-discipline just allocates blame to women if a man falls into temptation because a woman is not Islamically covered.

I have to completely agree with this statement.

Every sin belongs to the individual, not anyone else. If I wear capris and a t-shirt to go for a walk, I am not doing it to attract the opposite sex. I'm doing it because its stiffling hot and I don't want to over heat. But, even so, what a man thinks when he looks at any woman is his own fault, not hers.

I see so many Arab men dressed in find clothing with their beards trimmed and smelling of strong colognes? Did you know the human sense of smell is our most powerful sense?

If anything, perfume should be forbidden if you are going into attractants. Pheromones are far more powerful to the natural man than sight, yet there is no prohibition against heady perfumes in Islam.

Its all rather ridiculous. It comes down to women will get blamed for all the sins of man no matter how virtuous she is in her heart. Eve/Hawa was redeemed in Islam. She was used in Christianity and Judaism to prove how women are all temptresses and seductresses.

For 600AD, Muhammed (pbuh) freed women from the slavery they lived in. Yet, modern Muslims continue to place them as the reason for sin.

It is not the Western woman who is at fault for the lusts of men. If anything she is a victim of it and no headscarf will free her from that condition.

I'm not saying the headscarf is in anyway a bad thing. I wish it was more acceptible for all Abrahamic women to wear it. I'm just saying that the headscarf does not mark a womans Chastity. For a Muslimah, it marks her faith in her Creator, to obey him. However, she can still be a nasty, vile, hurtful woman under that scarf.

If the hijab were the savior that some think it is, then there would never be a woman flogged or stoned in the places where its required. Yet there are women regularly punished for fornication, adultery and lewdness in Middle Eastern Countries. And there are brothels and clubs filled with abducted women all over the Middle East serving men who regularly do not see a woman outside of the Niqab or Hijab.

To focus on a piece of cloth instead of the moral issue is what causes these failures. A man should be taught to respect all women and to see them for their spiritual value no matter what they are wearing. A woman should be taught to respect her body and guard it no matter what the social norms are an what clothing is acceptable. Its not about "hijab" is about self-respect.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 7:32am

Israfil wrote:

Ok here is where I have to come in as a male.

"But hijab helps men to be self-disciplined. Its like people should surround themselves with people who share the same values and a positive environment."

Israfil, do you know that the first look is pardonable, but the second is sin?

What does that mean? It means that when a man or a woman sees the opposite sex physically, it is pardonable, but when it reaches the heart (the inner sight) - that will lead to day dreams which are unhealthy, then it is sinful.

I have no doubt that there are Muslim women who acted like that, but these women definitely has little knowledge of halal and harams or what I should call ignorant Muslims or non-practicing Muslims whose iman is not strong. A true Muslimah, who covers herself, will also cover her eyes or any of her senses from looking/hearing/touching that which is haram.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 7:37am

Every sin belongs to the individual, not anyone else. If I wear capris and a t-shirt to go for a walk, I am not doing it to attract the opposite sex. I'm doing it because its stiffling hot and I don't want to over heat. But, even so, what a man thinks when he looks at any woman is his own fault, not hers.

Yes Angela, you can wear whatever you like, because your religion does not have a proper dressing code. But for Muslim, we have and is it wrong for us to follow God�s Law, God who created the furthest of the planets and the tiniest of the veins, God who knows what is good for us and what is bad.

I see so many Arab men dressed in find clothing with their beards trimmed and smelling of strong colognes? Did you know the human sense of smell is our most powerful sense?

Wearing a perfume for Muslim men is not haram. For women, they can only wear perfumes in the vicinity of their own homes. If a woman goes out wearing perfume and a stranger happens to smell it, this is also haram as it may arouse the sexual desire in men.

Its all rather ridiculous. It comes down to women will get blamed for all the sins of man no matter how virtuous she is in her heart.

What is ridiculous? If men and women were to follow the law of the Creator, no one will be blamed. The reason why women like to advertise their assets is because, basically, we are vain. God knows vanity is not healthy spiritually, hence to subdue vanity, He commanded that women wear modestly.

Eve/Hawa was redeemed in Islam. She was used in Christianity and Judaism to prove how women are all temptresses and seductresses.

Why should we blame Eve/Hawa? Islam never blame Eve-Hawa for the sins of her husband. It is only Christianity and Judaism who are cruel to her.

Modern Muslims continue to place them as the reason for sin? - You are implying that I am blaming myself for sin? - That is so funny. Most western women should blame themselves for being sex slaves in this modern world.

It is not the Western woman who is at fault for the lusts of men. If anything she is a victim of it and no headscarf will free her from that condition.

I had seen in You tube, these two guys from behind stealthily pulling a tank top of a woman. They did that to many women. For them it was fun. Who is to blame in this case? This would never happen if she was dressed like a Muslimah.

I'm just saying that the headscarf does not mark a womans Chastity. For a Muslimah, it marks her faith in her Creator, to obey him. However, she can still be a nasty, vile, hurtful woman under that scarf.

You maybe right. We are all not perfect. Only Allah The Creator is. And He is Most Gracious, Most Merciful. We try our best to follow His commandments to the best of our ability.

If the hijab were the savior that some think it is, then there would never be a woman flogged or stoned in the places where its required. Yet there are women regularly punished for fornication, adultery and lewdness in Middle Eastern Countries. And there are brothels and clubs filled with abducted women all over the Middle East serving men who regularly do not see a woman outside of the Niqab or Hijab.

This is a general accusation that needs some proof. Perhaps you will be kind enough to give links to prove your point.

To focus on a piece of cloth instead of the moral issue is what causes these failures. A man should be taught to respect all women and to see them for their spiritual value no matter what they are wearing. A woman should be taught to respect her body and guard it no matter what the social norms are an what clothing is acceptable. Its not about "hijab" is about self-respect.

This is exactly the reason behind the law on hijab. A woman who covers herself modestly is not only protecting herself, but also her family and society in general. Because the man who is looking at her could be someone�s husband, brother, son, father, uncle or grandfather. She, in obeying the law of Allah Our Creator, is not only guarding herself, but also guarding her family and her society.

This applies to men too. In lowering their gaze when meeting women who are not their mahram, a man is protecting himself, his family because that woman could be someone�s wife, sister, daughter, mother, aunt or grandmother.

Allahul Aleem! God is Most Knowing.

Salam.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 7:09pm

Israfil, do you know that the first look is pardonable, but the second is sin?

I didn't know that, so I guess if I do a "double take" it is bad right?

It means that when a man or a woman sees the opposite sex physically, it is pardonable, but when it reaches the heart (the inner sight) - that will lead to day dreams which are unhealthy, then it is sinful.

So if I see a beautiful woman walk past me I'm not allowed to find her attractive or think about her attractive she is? What if my so-called "day dreams" are composed of the thought me wanting to find out if she is married or find out if she wants to marry?

A true Muslimah, who covers herself, will also cover her eyes or any of her senses from looking/hearing/touching that which is haram.

Again, you Nur_Ilahi have been conditioned by your Shiekh, Scholars, or Imam into believing by a woman covering herself completely will she then control seduction. This is untrue. This also again validates my point that if she doesn't then if a man looks at her the wrong way its the woman's fault because she didnt cover herself correctly. This goes along the lines of the ultra-conservative attitude of "women should be seen, but not heard" and in this case, "should not be looked at."

A woman who covers herself modestly is not only protecting herself, but also her family and society in general.

Can a woman still be raped even if she is "moderately" covered?

HMMM nothing about "modest" dress here. Hmmm. So I guess lowering one's gaze is sufficient? According to the word of God it is but what about modern times? What about our jobs, super markets, and neighborhoods where it is out there? How do I lower my gaze if I need to deal with a woman in un-islamic dress? Again the empahsis in your statements is more on the woman than the man.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 8:04pm

I once read a piece about cultures wherw hibab is the norm, and that it benefits all women. Not just themselves, but their sisters. Let's face it, men are visual. Should they have discipline.. yes, is controlling ourselves easy all the time, no.

When women where hijab it helps all women in that it:

1. helps men to not "compare" their wife or wives to other women. Everything can seem "better" and "greener" on the other side.

2. it helps young girls all around to not feel that they are the sum total of their body parts. Sadly, all over the world, women, more than men, are defined and valued by their looks. Of course, I grew up in the west. And by no means did my parents tell me my worth was in my looks. But it defines your friends and your social relationships-sadly in teenage years and puberty. How can girls NOT be affected? And their self-esteem goes down. Too many girls and women grow up hating themselves based upon how they look.

Valuing looks is not a western phenomenon. It happens all over. This is what women have to face. Some times with horrific results.

As Nur pointed out, if people really, in their hearts attempt to be good Muslims, both men and women, then there are fewer issues.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 9:26pm

"Too many girls and women grow up hating themselves based upon how they look."

Blame society, not men. Both men and women contribute to this.

"Let's face it, men are visual."

So are women. Physical attraction is a biological phenomena so don't tell me women don't have the same processes (meaning how one formulates physical attraction in their mind) that men do. Men just show this behavior differently. Again, what is the standard for men?

Again, although your propositions are good, they are more geared towards women than men, therefore I find it a consequential elemental of how conditioned men and women are in religion. Dress is not a state of just what you wear but how you behave. An adulterer can wear a 3-piece suit. A rapist could wear a nice tuxedo. Too much is focused on dress alone and NOT behavior.

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 7:02am

Wearing a perfume for Muslim men is not haram. For women, they can only wear perfumes in the vicinity of their own homes. If a woman goes out wearing perfume and a stranger happens to smell it, this is also haram as it may arouse the sexual desire in men.

So, its okay for Men to go out with colonge that would arouse a woman but not vice versa???

I know some Very vain men. Have you ever heard of men liking to "sew their oats"? There is a belief that men (SORRY ISRAFIL) will basically sleep with anyone to spread it around.

This would have never happened if those boys did not get into a car, go out looking for a woman to embarrass. I am very tired of people not accepting responsibility for their actions and placing the blame elsewhere.

This is a general accusation that needs some proof. Perhaps you will be kind enough to give links to prove your point.

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80733 - http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80733

Perhaps this is a bad example because the young woman was raped, but obviously the men felt that she was at fault for her own rape. There was an incident in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990s where two girls dress in Niqab (and nothing else) drove around and lured men into a van. They used their veils to disguise their identity so they could have anonymous sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashail_bint_Fahd_al_Saud -

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 7:04am

Hayfa wrote:

As Nur pointed out, if people really, in their hearts attempt to be good Muslims, both men and women, then there are fewer issues.

The same could be said about Christians, Jews, Buddhists. If we all tried to be better, the world would be better. One should not blame victims, however.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:15am

In no way do I ever blame women for the violence committed upon women. We are talking about two different issues:

I have never agreed that violence is connected to dress. Rape and sexual assault is due to deviant minds combined with opportunity. I teach self-defense and there is no proven connection. The only correlation is that two ways women may be targets is if they wear very restrictive clothing or anything that restricts free walking, like high heels.

How women are viewed by themselves and others are a product of the society they live in. Having a more covered dress helps people, especially girls have a more psoitive self-esteem. Is it the sole factor, no. It is about having dignity and self-respect.

Israfil, Islam calls upon all people to dress modestly. Period, we may know some benefits and we may not know why. You appear to get defensive when differences are pointed between men and women. When people say men are "like this" no oneis thinking 100% of men are like this or for women. But there are general trends. if you look at magazines, either men or womens' most adds feature halk-naked women. Not men. That says alot. Why are there so many strip clubs for men? Let's just be basic and realistic. Why is so much porn for men?

We can "guess" as to the reasons why we are asked to dress. Clearly women are asked to wear hijab and not draw attention to ourselves in public. Men are asked to lower their gaze. It is clear. Men are not required to cover their hair (or head).

Do I "blame" women for their lustful gaze or lust in their hearts. No. But as a woman I should do what my Creator has told me to do. So I don't, and others don't do it to "help men" but for themselves.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:42am

"Israfil, Islam calls upon all people to dress modestly."

I agree. God in Islam also says all different ethnic groups are human and all are equal in his sight, but some Muslims still are racist. The fact of the matter is cultural in these times supercede religious values unfortunately. If this weren't true why do I see Muslims running liquor stores here in Los Angeles? How would I know? The big "Allah" picture frame behind the counter.

"In no way do I ever blame women for the violence committed upon women. We are talking about two different issues:"

Nobody here is saying you are personally blaming, but your statements and language are doing the blaming.

"You appear to get defensive when differences are pointed between men and women."

Because I th believe from my experiences that we all are contributing members of this society and, unless I'm under some type of medication that makes me delusional have personally seen Muslim women behave opposite of how their faith instructs them how to behave, freewill anyone? I know people aren't saying men are 100% at fault but again language is the key. Men and women should be addressed equally when discussing these issues so as to not alienate one gender over the other. We must also remind ourselves that all people are human and do have eyes and physiological porcesses that are natural.

"Having a more covered dress helps people, especially girls have a more psoitive self-esteem."

This is your opinion which I respect, but there is no proof of this. I do believe moderate dress is appropriate when conducting yourself in the world but I wouldn't say it is helpful because again, clothing is not the sole factor of perception.

"So I don't, and others don't do it to "help men" but for themselves."

Well you did say to help men in your older post I don't know if you know that.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 10:57am

PattyaMainer wrote:

honeto wrote:

Thanks Patty,

that is very interesting. Tell us more about the ceremony, I heard its just like a wedding ceremony with ring and vows?? does she also wear white bridal dress, or that varys??

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

I have this video to offer. I think it shows what transpires. It is very touching to me as a Catholic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW3OXzeRis&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW3OXzeRis&feature=related

God's Peace,

Patty

Hi Patty,

interesting video. The music and singing in the background adds and fills emotion to the ceremony. I say probably different 'denominations' within Catholicism may differ on how this process and ceremony takes place as well as what and how to dress, but for the same purpose.

It is also intersting to see different levels of heirarchy through diffrent outfits, and their posture toward each other. That is quite an alien idea for a Muslim and different than that in Islam where the color of one's covering does not determine one's rank or order over the other or level of their advancement in the faith, rather simply a matter of one's choice which Islamically should only represent modesty.

It is also interesting that the purpose and reason of becoming a nun is to purify and be away from sin and serve God. Of course that will depend of an individual (nun), I am sure some may achieve it, some still not. So in other words, being a nun does not gurantee that one will become sin free, as we do hear and know of many nuns involve in various sins as well as many priests who do leave family life to serve God.

Now as far as leaving the family and family life to be purified and be devoted to God, as it may leave one with less distractions?

I can understand the motive behind that, but is that what God really wants from us?

A fight is no fight without a fight, I am sure you will agree with me that we all, including nuns and preists fight with temptations and whispers of satan on every moment basis and end up still sinning, knowingly and without knowing. Other than the Bible quotes what there is as a logical base to say that only by leaving family life one can achieve that purity?

God wants us not to leave what is a norm of life, yet achieve our obligations to Him through struggle and fight of the self. And He has given us those capabilities and how to use them through His guidance, I believe.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 12:59pm

Hayfa,

I agree and I didn't think you were the one blaming victims, that was more Nur.

I agree more clothing helps self-esteem. However, I don't think necessarily that conforming to a particular ethnic groups style of dress makes one particularly pious. The hijab in all its major forms originated in the peoples of the middle east. I suspect that as far back as people lived in the desert because of the benefits of wearing headcoverings and veils in the desert. However, millions more lived in a time where they did not have that exact style.

Modest dress is possible without wearing niqab, hijab or jilbab. Modest loose fitting T-shirts, Jeans and long skirts, modest ladies suits and blouses. I just don't see why one must dress like an Arab Muslimah to be considered modest and chaste.

I hate how our young girls are bombarded with images in the media that make them think that skinny and scantily clad is how a woman should be. There is the concept among "born" Muslims that all Christian women are somehow loose.....heck, all western women no matter what religion. I have several Muslimah friends who do not wear hijab. They pray 5 times a day and are very proud of their faith. They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head.

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:02pm

honeto wrote:

PattyaMainer wrote:

honeto wrote:

Thanks Patty,

that is very interesting. Tell us more about the ceremony, I heard its just like a wedding ceremony with ring and vows?? does she also wear white bridal dress, or that varys??

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

I have this video to offer. I think it shows what transpires. It is very touching to me as a Catholic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW3OXzeRis&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyW3OXzeRis&feature=related

God's Peace,

Patty

Hi Patty,

Now as far as leaving the family and family life to be purified and be devoted to God, as it may leave one with less distractions?

I can understand the motive behind that, but is that what God really wants from us?

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

I am glad you enjoyed the video. I don't know if I can explain this to you properly or not, but I will try. Just a little information here....there are NO different "denominations" within the Catholic Church. There is only one Catholic Church. There are different "orders" of nuns and priests, but that is a completely different matter. Protestants have many, many denominations, but not Catholic.

A nun is not necessarily considered any more pure than a devout Catholic. They are not running away from the world....they are running toward God. They are giving their lives to serve Him in whatever way he calls them. Many nuns are professionals. One here in Maine where I live started a hospital in Bangor, Maine. She runs this hospital. Some are nurses, artists, musicians, run bakeries and give the money to the poor. I could go on and on, but then there are some who go to convents and live their lives in meditation and prayer. God calls different people to spread his word of love and salvation in a wide variety of ways.

There have been very sad times in the last few years caused, of course, by Satan, the Evil One. Some priests were evil and NOT called by God. They committed very evil and illegal acts against children and others in the Church. I am sure God will certainly judge them according to their deeds when they reach the final judgement! As a devout Catholic I can assure you they are very much frowned upon by the Church, by all devoted Catholics. Many steps have been taken throughout America to see that these men (pedophiles) NEVER become priests. No priest or adult working for the church is permitted to be alone with a child. No adult can pick up and hold a child over the age of five....no touching, hugging, kissing, nothing. If the parents are present, the priest may bless the child and shake their hand. It is really a terribly shame these sinful priests created such scandal!! I have known priests all my life, and they have been wonderful, selfless, devoted, men of God. They give their entire life to God, the Church, and the people. Many have died a martyr's death in their service of God. I felt I had to get that in, because so many non-Catholics hate the Church and will stoop to anything to downgrade it, or cause more resentment and hatred. These are people who honestly know very little about Catholicism.

Nuns and priests are called by God into His service. They do not just decide one day to become a nun or a priest. They go through great study to see if this is really God telling them to become a sister or priest. Then there are many years of seminary study.....priests average 12 years of college, theology, etc., before they are ordained. They have many years to determine if this is God's will for their lives. Nothing abnormal about living a life of chastity or abstinence. What is normal for one person may be completely abnormal for another. Who decides what is normal? Not all people marry, they are not meant to. Nuns and priests devote nearly all their time to helping others. If they were married, they would not have nearly as much time during a day to do this, because their loyalties and obligations would be divided. But Catholics do not believe priests and nuns are more pure than any other person on earth who listens to their conscience, loves God with all their being, and strives to please him, while avoiding the many temptations to sin. And we do fail because we are human. Everyone sins, everyone! The wonderful thing about God is that if we ask for forgiveness....He ALWAYS forgives us and welcomes us with open arms. :) We, as Catholics, have many prayers, but this is one we say often to help avoid sin, and to ask God's forgiveness when we fail:

ACT OF CONTRITION

Oh My God, I am heartily sorry

for having offended you, and I

detest all my sins because of

your just punishments, but most

of all because they offend You,

My God, who are all-good and

deserving of all my love. I

firmly resolve with the help of

Your grace to sin no more,

and to AVOID THE NEAR OCCASION

OF SIN.

I hope I have explained a little more clearly. I am not always so good with words.

God's Peace,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 2:42pm

Angela wrote:

Hayfa,

I agree and I didn't think you were the one blaming victims, that was more Nur.

I agree more clothing helps self-esteem. However, I don't think necessarily that conforming to a particular ethnic groups style of dress makes one particularly pious. The hijab in all its major forms originated in the peoples of the middle east. I suspect that as far back as people lived in the desert because of the benefits of wearing headcoverings and veils in the desert. However, millions more lived in a time where they did not have that exact style.

Modest dress is possible without wearing niqab, hijab or jilbab. Modest loose fitting T-shirts, Jeans and long skirts, modest ladies suits and blouses. I just don't see why one must dress like an Arab Muslimah to be considered modest and chaste.

I hate how our young girls are bombarded with images in the media that make them think that skinny and scantily clad is how a woman should be. There is the concept among "born" Muslims that all Christian women are somehow loose.....heck, all western women no matter what religion. I have several Muslimah friends who do not wear hijab. They pray 5 times a day and are very proud of their faith. They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head.

Hi Angela,

I agree with you somewhat in particular on dressing like an Arab issue. But think that there is more than just covering the bosoms. The following verse is very clear. Its unfortunate, that many Muslim women, including in my own family think that just dressing modest (accroding to their own standards) is all they are asked to do and the outer covering, which is know by saveral different terms around the world is not needed and represent extreme case.

33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 4:36am

I didn't know that, so I guess if I do a "double take" it is bad right?

Right!

if I see a beautiful woman walk past me I'm not allowed to find her attractive or think about her attractive she is?

It is much better to keep your thoughts to yourself.

What if my so-called "day dreams" are composed of the thought me wanting to find out if she is married or find out if she wants to marry?

If thinking or seeing the woman in your inner eye will result in erroneous unhealthy dreams, then it is sinful.

Again, you Nur_Ilahi have been conditioned by your Shiekh, Scholars, or Imam into believing by a woman covering herself completely will she then control seduction.

If I do not believe my sheikh or scholars or imams, who should I believe, a feel-low-so-far like you? The point is Allah's law is the best of law. If you can think of a better law than Allah's, then please present it to us here.

This is untrue. This also again validates my point that if she doesn't then if a man looks at her the wrong way its the woman's fault because she didnt cover herself correctly.

Are you trying to negate Allah's law? Both are at fault, because both man and woman do not follow the guidelines given by the Creator of the Whole Universe.

This goes along the lines of the ultra-conservative attitude of "women should be seen, but not heard" and in this case, "should not be looked at."

The only part of our bodies that can be looked at is just the pair of hands and the face. Other than that, it is exclusively mine and my immediate family. Even though we are covered from head to toe, does it lessen our ability to be a wife, to be a mother, or even to be a professional in the working world? No. Not at all.

In this modern world of too much freedom, I am thankful to Allah for this command. It had been proven that woman who covers themselves modestly are less prone to molestations and rapes from men.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 4:52am

The hijab in all its major forms originated in the peoples of the middle east.

Right! Where Mary and Jesus were born. Where some stories of women in the Bible who covers themselves originate from.

Modest dressing in Islam, could be just any garment that covers the hair, the bosom, the shape of the body and should be opaque. So if you want to dress wearing a Pakistani shalwar kameez, the baju kurong of the Malaysians, the Ao Dai of the Vietnamese, the sari of India, the cheongsams of the Chinese or the kimono of the Japanese, as long as it fulfil the condition of the above, all are acceptable.

I hate how our young girls are bombarded with images in the media that make them think that skinny and scantily clad is how a woman should be.

Yes. That is why these kind of idea is a no sell in Islamic countries, because these are not what is taught by Allah and His Rasul.

They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head. - Is this remarks theirs or yours?

You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose. That is what is normally portrayed on TV. Same with those who are anti-Muslims just for watching these Zionists owned media.

Actually I do not believe that. Good always outweigh evil. There are more good Western people around than those loose ones.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 5:41am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head. - Is this remarks theirs or yours?

You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose. That is what is normally portrayed on TV. Same with those who are anti-Muslims just for watching these Zionists owned media.

Actually I do not believe that. Good always outweigh evil. There are more good Western people around than those loose ones.

Theirs actually... its really beside the point.

The ayah you quoted is a very good one. But, it addresses believing women, which I have come to interpret in the Quran meaning Muslimahs. This ayah tells me that a Muslimah should cast about her garments that mark her as a Muslim so that she is not harassed. Her virtue is known, so to speak.

Christian women are only told to cover their head when praying or prophesying.

Originally posted by 1 Corinthians 11:2-16

1 Corinthians 11:2-16 wrote:

http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-2.htm - 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-3.htm - 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-4.htm - 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-5.htm - 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-6.htm - 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-7.htm - 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-8.htm - 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-9.htm - 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-10.htm - 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-11.htm - 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-12.htm - 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-13.htm - 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-14.htm - 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-15.htm - 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-16.htm - 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

This is why Orthodox women cover their heads while in Church. This is why I own around a dozen headscarves.

However, it does not tell us to over our heads at any other time.

I am glad that you feel there are good western women. The media is evil. I barely watch any TV that isn't on the National Geographic Channel, History Channel, News or Discovery. I just get tired of the violence and the sex.

What the Middle East doesn't see is the pushes to end the sexualization of the youth. They don't see the abstinence programs and the push to teach children to wait for marriage.

In the end, I believe in personal responsibility and choices. If a man rapes a woman who is drunk and wearing a miniskirt. He is ultimately at fault for his actions. If a man cheats on his wife with his younger secretary, the blame falls on to each equally. She can say no or quit her job. He can behave himself or hire a male secretary if he's that weak willed. The secretary cannot be blamed for the man's actions, only her own.

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 10:45am

It is much better to keep your thoughts to yourself.

Is this what God says or are you making a personal opinion? And Also, if I say I find her attractive in my mind isn't that 'keeping my thoughts to myself?"

If thinking or seeing the woman in your inner eye will result in erroneous unhealthy dreams, then it is sinful.

What is an "unhealthy dream?" Is this conceptual or biological? I've never heard of an unhealthy dream before.

Negative. Follow Muhammad the prophet. not mere human beings.

Are you trying to negate Allah's law? Both are at fault, because both man and woman do not follow the guidelines given by the Creator of the Whole Universe.

How many times in your post will you say God, the Creator of the whole universe. We all know God is the Creator of the entire universe. I just find it funny you have to constantly establish that. So again, the man is at fault for looking and the woman's at fault for not covering herself Islamically. Got it!

It had been proven that woman who covers themselves modestly are less prone to molestations and rapes from men.

Can you prove this?

You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose.

"They don't see the abstinence programs and the push to teach children to wait for marriage."

Angela, in my opinion Nur_Ilahi is a follower of what she sees in media so therefore regardless whether the media shows abstinence programs or other preventative measures, people only want to satisfy their egos by believing in stereotypes.

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 11:47am

Angela wrote:

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

They point out the Quran says cover your bosom and they point out their bosom is not on top of their head. - Is this remarks theirs or yours?

You cannot blame us for believing that Western women are loose. That is what is normally portrayed on TV. Same with those who are anti-Muslims just for watching these Zionists owned media.

Actually I do not believe that. Good always outweigh evil. There are more good Western people around than those loose ones.

Angela,

you said, "However, it does not tell us to cover our heads at any other time."

Are you saying that the Bible did not address or talk about how to dress in public for its followers?

Its intersting that some Christians I know follow very strict dress code (long skirts, covering more etc).

I believe, that just like the believe in one God is a universal belief, how to do this or that, how to be and dress in public or in front of a stranger must be same for those who follow the guidance from the One and only God.

I find this quote interesting and not strange at all:

Genesis 24:64 "Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel 65 and asked the servant, "Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?"
"He is my master," the servant answered. So she took her veil and covered herself. "

As far as your examples, I think that a woman wearing short cloths and causing attraction toward her body in a sexual way is responsible for her part in any sin she causes to happen even just in mind. Of course the man lusting on her or engaging in an activity resulting it is to pay what he does.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=6&version=31&context=verse - Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Now that's according to your Bilble.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 1:19pm

Hasan, this is part of your post above.....it is tooooo long to quote all of it.

"Angela you said, "However, it does not tell us to cover our heads at any other time."

Are you saying that the Bible did not address or talk about how to dress in public for its followers?

Its intersting that some Christians I know follow very strict dress code (long skirts, covering more etc).

I find this quote interesting and not strange at all:

Now that's according to your Bilble.

Hasan

I think many references in the Bible are taken from that time period because that is how the cultures were back then. But things do change and we change. I am not saying at all that women should run around in short skirts, tight tops, etc., like a Hollywood Brittany Spears (ugh), but there are many forms of MODEST clothing for women. There are pretty shirts, slacks, etc., which are NOT sexy or revealing. I don't believe God created human beings so they could hide every dot of skin He created on them. Human beings are beautiful. And by that I do not mean sexy. By nature, we are sexy......we are meant to be attractive to the opposite sex. If we were not, the human race would disappear.

I do believe women should use care when dressing, so as not to look like a typical "painted lady." I also believe men are every bit as responsible in using self-discipline when looking at a woman. It's called RESPECT. I live in the woods of Maine. It would be impossible for me to go through my day in a long gown. I wear comfortable slacks or jeans (not tight ones) and usually a sweatshirt or warm, flannel shirt. I can hike through the woods just fine in these clothes. I wear dressy clothes to church or when I have to go into a city. (I hate cities.) So I think God gave us all a brain to use and decipher what He really means about modesty.

If we were never meant to change or modernize anything since the beginning of time, we would not drive cars, watch TV at all, listen to a radio, talk on a cell phone, etc. Medicine would offer no surgery for many ailments, and there would be NO antibiotics. I believe common sense dictates that in all areas of life there comes change over the years. Morals DO NOT CHANGE. What I see as abysmally immoral are men who rape women, even women in burkas, and their government (comprised of men) find the women guilty of "causing the rape." Oh no! God must be horribly distressed over that sort of reasoning. Rape is not about sex, it's all about control. It is a SIN, there is NEVER JUSTIFICATION, and it is ILLEGAL in most countries.

I agree the Bible says, "If anyone should lead a child into sin, it would be better he have a millstone hung around his neck and drowned in the sea." Jesus said that, and He loved children very much. He also said, "suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven." We should be more childlike in our activities....more innocent as a child.

Oh, I also wonder why in Genesis mentioned above, Rebekah only covered herself when she learned it was Isaac. She did not cover herself in front of her servant.....or was the servant also a woman? Just curious.

God's Peace,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 6:50pm

Although I believe in modest clothing I have a hard time accepting modesty means more safety.

Somali Rape Victim Stoned To Death Was 13

"A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/01/world/main4562850.shtml - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/01/world/main4562850.shtml

I wonder if hijab or niqab would have prevented this. Like I said clothing is not just the sole factor of how others perceive you it is also the behavior the individual and those within the environment.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/01/world/main4562850.shtml -

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 5:20am

Israfil wrote:

Although I believe in modest clothing I have a hard time accepting modesty means more safety.

How remarkably evil and absurd. All one would need do in countries who punish or kill the VICTIM is rape her and then they have assured their right to kill her. They are nothing more than sociopathic murderers. They get their "kicks" from inflicting pain and suffering on innocent people. Religion my foot! Religion has no place in this sort of activity!! It really makes me furious, and I am quite confident it makes God even more furious!!!

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 7:17am

This is why Orthodox women cover their heads while in Church. This is why I own around a dozen headscarves.However, it does not tell us to over our heads at any other time.

Quran says - �O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed on you raiment to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allah, that they may receive admonition.� (Quran 7:26)

�And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.� (Quran 24:31).

�O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.� (Quran 33:59)

I am glad that you feel there are good western women. The media is evil. I barely watch any TV that isn't on the National Geographic Channel, History Channel, News or Discovery. I just get tired of the violence and the sex.
Me too. Especially stories like Desperate Housewives. It really gives a bad impression of American women, which I believe are mostly not like that.

What the Middle East doesn't see is the pushes to end the sexualization of the youth.

Angela, you may have forgotten that I am not from the Middle East .

They don't see the abstinence programs and the push to teach children to wait for marriage..

It is good that they have these programmes. However man-made law is nothing like God's law. God's law has a stronger and eternal effect in human being. While man-made law can change anytime to suit their preference. As to the story of the boss and the secretary, if both of them have a love of God or fear of His punishment, they will not even dare to sin.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 7:25am

Israfil wrote:

Although I believe in modest clothing I have a hard time accepting modesty means more safety.

There are so many inconsistencies in these reports. She was accused by the militant Islamists with ties with Al=Qaeda (the terrorist group that was the baby of the Zionists Powers).

Not fair to judge her in the condition of her country.

She had been punished in this world. Her soul was then pure when meeting Allah. May Allah bless her with Jannah.

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 8:18am

�I live in the woods of Maine. It would be impossible for me to go through my day in a long gown. I wear comfortable slacks or jeans (not tight ones) and usually a sweatshirt or warm, flannel shirt.�

Well nothing wrong with this by Islamic standard.. we are not required to wear gowns.. some of the most feminine women I see were in Pakistan and they generally do not wear skirts at all. One has to be practical, not sure too many people wear skirts in Alaska...lol

�I don't believe God created human beings so they could hide every dot of skin He created on them. Human beings are beautiful. And by that I do not mean sexy. By nature, we are sexy......we are meant to be attractive to the opposite sex. If we were not, the human race would disappear.�

This made me laugh as most Muslims really don't have problems with reproduction...definitely the are populating the planet... lol Most Muslims don't see naked people of the opposite sex, touch people they are not related too and they certainly have lots of "private activity." upon marriage. lol

I don't think that women are necessarily "promiscuous" in the same sense that say prostitutes are. But it is quite common that people date, sleep with partners, both men and women do, on quite a regular basis. There is seen as nothing "wrong" to do so. A friend who started dating this guy, her first boyfriend, was worried what her parents would think. They were "old school" Catholic. She was not. And she was shocked when her mom said it was better to date and sleep together before marriage so that you "know" if you are compatible. I think for most people who "disapprove" you just end up "going with the flow" of the society. I think it also happens to some Muslims in the US.

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 10:52am

Hayfa wrote:

�I live in the woods of Maine. It would be impossible for me to go through my day in a long gown. I wear comfortable slacks or jeans (not tight ones) and usually a sweatshirt or warm, flannel shirt.�

Well nothing wrong with this by Islamic standard.. we are not required to wear gowns.. some of the most feminine women I see were in Pakistan and they generally do not wear skirts at all. One has to be practical, not sure too many people wear skirts in Alaska...lol

�I don't believe God created human beings so they could hide every dot of skin He created on them. Human beings are beautiful. And by that I do not mean sexy. By nature, we are sexy......we are meant to be attractive to the opposite sex. If we were not, the human race would disappear.�

This made me laugh as most Muslims really don't have problems with reproduction...definitely the are populating the planet... lol Most Muslims don't see naked people of the opposite sex, touch people they are not related too and they certainly have lots of "private activity." upon marriage. lol

I don't think that women are necessarily "promiscuous" in the same sense that say prostitutes are. But it is quite common that people date, sleep with partners, both men and women do, on quite a regular basis. There is seen as nothing "wrong" to do so. A friend who started dating this guy, her first boyfriend, was worried what her parents would think. They were "old school" Catholic. She was not. And she was shocked when her mom said it was better to date and sleep together before marriage so that you "know" if you are compatible. I think for most people who "disapprove" you just end up "going with the flow" of the society. I think it also happens to some Muslims in the US.

Good post, Hayfa. When I mentioned the part about humans naturally being sexually attractive, that is what I meant really. Even if we do not see a speck of skin, we are sometimes still attracted to a certain person. Many people are strongly attracted to a person they have never seen, such as those who truly fell in love during telephone conversations, etc. I met my husband quite accidentally on the internet many years ago. It was when the internet was just coming into being. We liked the way were wrote and the messages evolved into telephone conversations. Finally he came to my state (over a thousand miles away) and met my family....we were married in my hometown and I moved back to his village in Maine with him.

I know many people sleep with their "partner" without the benefit of marriage. This happens literally everywhere. It is not what I believe to be moral or helpful in creating a happy marriage. It is done by good people and bad people, but I guess I am one of those old fogies who believes it is against the will of God and is a grave sin. Catholics are fully aware they are in a state of mortal sin when/if they perform this act, and are forbidden to receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion when in a state of mortal sin. It is on their conscience and their soul, but it is still, and always has been, a mortal/grave sin to have sex outside the sacrament of marriage. It is not always easy to be a Catholic, but it is well worth the sacrifices in the long run. I know I fail many times, but I do try my best to do what God expects of me.

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 15 November 2008 at 11:33am

i may be covering old ground with my reply. i haven't read all replies to this post. and i don't mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. but on the topic of women covering thier heads, my great aunt was amish. i never ever seen her with out her bonet head covering. women other than nuns cover their heads in the christain world yet nobody chastizes them, thier husbends or thier faith for that fact.
peace
leland

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love for all conquers all

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 15 November 2008 at 2:50pm

You're right Hayfa, in many places this is acceptable. However, it reality it is not. Its one thing I do still like about my Church. They focus on modesty and chastity. While, its important for couples to learn about each other and learn if they are compatible, its highly suggested that dates are done within groups and that couples avoid being in situations that can lead to breaking the Law of Chasity as it is called in our Church.

I think that our focus on Eternal Partnerships gives us a different view on courtship. If you know you're stuck with the person for time and all eternity, you want to make sure you like the person. That's why active mormons have a 75% success rate in marriage compared to the less than 50% for other Americans.

And for "active" Mormons having a 24% divorce rate, Muslim men and women have about a 31% divorce rate.

Covering oneself is only on aspect of a multi-faceted lifestyle. Nur brings up Rebekkah...

In the time of Rebbekkah, if a man was found guilty of rape, his punishment was to marry the victim. Women were not allowed to sit upon the furniture and had to sequester themselves during their period and priests could not marry divorcees or widows because they had to have a virgin. These laws do not apply to Christians, only the ultra Orthodox Jews.

One part of Christianity that is not focused on by Muslims is the repentance of sinners.

In Islam, repentance does not matter except in the final judgement. A fornicator will be lashed even if they repented or an adulterer stoned. This is seen as a mercy because being punished in this life means they won't be punished in the next.

However, in Christianity, people can repent and turn away from sin. With sincere repentence, your sin is forgiven and forgotten by the Lord. Sincere repentence also carries a condition of not repeating the sin. Thus, if a person falls into sinful behavior there is always hope they will repent and return to the fold of the obedient and believing.

We also have the concept of freewill and freechoice. If a Christian choses not to be Christian anymore, it is on their immortal soul. The Christian community will pray for their return and for their soul, but there is no specific punishment (save shunning in certain communities like the Amish) for apostacy. If they choose to return, this is a celebrated thing and they are in most cases accepted back with love and forgiveness.

The kind of stringent rules that require veiling and "purdah" go against these freewill and repentance concepts. If a woman chooses to cover herself more or less, its her choice. If a man chooses to honor his wife or cheat on her, its his choice. They cannot choose the consequences of these choices. A woman might be mocked for her revealing clothing or her frumpy clothing. A many might be divorced by his wife for his infidelity. But in the end, its their choice, responsibility and burden.

The largest problem with Western "society" is lack of active participation in religion and the control of fringe groups in the media. People here don't even know their own religion and because of that, they do not understand what they profess to believe.

Patty and I are both active participants in our respective Churches. Our Churches are also strict and heirarchical. Her Pope and my Prophet give defined direction on what is and what is not a sin. We have sources, books and scholars that we can refer to if we have questions. Her priest can advise her like my bishop. But, there are many "Christians" out there that were baptized as a baby, celebrate the holidays and their bibles sit on the shelf (if they own one) and it collects dust.

There are also the "born again" evangelical Christians that teach simply accepting Christ as your Savior and Redeemer is all that you need to do to get into heaven. This is a false teaching but is very popular with people who don't want to have to think about what their actions will bring.

For these types of people, covering their head will not stop them. It will only make them less brazen. Sin never goes away, it just slinks back into the shadows and corrupts from there.

On a side note, Nur, I know you live in Singapore, but aren't you Egyptian by birth?

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 November 2008 at 4:14pm

Patty,

with your writings you seem to be sincere in your efforts of being good and practical and I repect that. However I must say that what you have expressed so far seems to be your personal understanding and opinion of how you want to believe, that is not necessarily part of a belief.

Sticking with a belief and its original teachings without time in no way mean to freeze in time, neither staying upto the time in no way suggests that we ought to mold it so it fit in different times.

As a Mulsim, I believe that my belief in a system or way of life (as Islam is)should reflect and drive me and my life without the limit of time and location on this earth, it should shape me and how I live, and not I or time should shape and drive it.

I am not arguing about how difficult or struggling the fulfilling of this task of being a true believer is but rather with what intention we take on it. Because of difficulties and challanges we face, sometimes we are inclined to make concessions by ourselves and find excuses for them in order to satisfy ourselves that we are not deviating.

I think in doing so we are simply amending the belief we profess to follow. Driffting away slowly still is not following the straight path. What we do or not to to simply accomodate and please our ownself and others should not be more important than being in line with the one who knows our heart more than we know it.

And by the way searching through I did find a verse in the OT that does command:

1 corinthians 11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 15 November 2008 at 8:10pm

Angela wrote - Its one thing I do still like about my Church. They focus on modesty and chastity.

Hi Angela,

A religion that is from the Creator should have a universal appeal, a universal approach, a universal law. In other words, This religion from the Creator of the Universe, should be applicable to any race, to any country and to any era. Am I wrong?

Angela, you said that what you like about your church is that it focussed on modesty and chastity. This means that other churches do not. Is that universal?

While, its important for couples to learn about each other and learn if they are compatible, its highly suggested that dates are done within groups and that couples avoid being in situations that can lead to breaking the Law of Chasity as it is called in our Church. - Here is another example of a non-universality of Christianity.

And for "active" Mormons having a 24% divorce rate, Is Muslim men and women have about a 31% divorce rate. That only applies to Muslims in the West, as no doubt to juggle ones identity as a Muslim and one's cultural and spiritual belief in a foreign county must have had its toil on them.

Covering oneself is only on aspect of a multi-faceted lifestyle. Nur brings up Rebekkah...In the time of Rebbekkah, if a man was found guilty of rape, his punishment was to marry the victim. Women were not allowed to sit upon the furniture and had to sequester themselves during their period and priests could not marry divorcees or widows because they had to have a virgin. These laws do not apply to Christians, only the ultra Orthodox Jews.

Sorry Angela, The Bible is for whom actually? Is it for Christians or is it for Jews? From here I deduce that, Christians revere the Bible, but at the same time only selects a few laws for themselves while a few are reserved for the Jews?

One part of Christianity that is not focused on by Muslims is the repentance of sinners.In Islam, repentance does not matter except in the final judgement. A fornicator will be lashed even if they repented or an adulterer stoned. This is seen as a mercy because being punished in this life means they won't be punished in the next.

Angela, Allah The Creator of the Whole Universe is Al-Ghafur, Most Forgiving, At-Tawwab - An Accepter of Repentance. Whatever sins that we commit, as long as we repent sincerely, Allah the Exalted said, "Hurry towards forgiveness from your Lord and to a paradise whose width is like the heavens and the earth." Meaning by that, "Hurry by means of repentance from disobedience, to Me and know that performance of good deeds for My sake; obligates for you My paradise and My good pleasure." And Allah the Exalted says, "O, you who believe, repent to Allah all together so that you may prosper." And Allah the Exalted says, "Truly Allah loves those who turn in repentance and He loves those who have a care for purification."

However, in Christianity, people can repent and turn away from sin. With sincere repentence, your sin is forgiven and forgotten by the Lord. Sincere repentence also carries a condition of not repeating the sin. Thus, if a person falls into sinful behavior there is always hope they will repent and return to the fold of the obedient and believing.

This part is similar to Islamic Teachings and the attribute of Allah Most Forgiving and The Accepter of Repentance.

We also have the concept of freewill and freechoice. If a Christian choses not to be Christian anymore, it is on their immortal soul. The Christian community will pray for their return and for their soul, but there is no specific punishment (save shunning in certain communities like the Amish) for apostacy.

If they choose to return, this is a celebrated thing and they are in most cases accepted back with love and forgiveness.

In response to the paragraph above, I would like to quote from http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/2.html - http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/2.html

Reflection upon the Holy Quran reveals several aspects of this teaching. For instance, it is said: Proclaim, O Prophet, O mankind the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord. Then whoso follows the guidance, follows it only for the good of his own self, and whoso errs does so only to his own detriment. I am not appointed a keeper over you (10: 109).

Here the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, has been commanded to proclaim to mankind that perfect truth has been presented to them in the Holy Quran in the form of the teachings of Islam. He who accepts it does so only to his own good" and he who goes astray does so only to his own loss. The Holy Prophet is commanded to proclaim that he is not responsible for the people. They them- selves have to provide for their own good, or to earn the wrath of God Almighty. This is not his business. Every soul must bear this responsibility for itself.

It is pointed out that every path that guides to the gardens of the pleasure of God Almighty has been described in the Holy Quran. It is the business of man to tread along them of his own free will, or to turn away from them of his own will. The Holy Prophet, peace be on him, bears no responsibility in that behalf, nor would he exercise any compulsion in respect of it.

Again it is said: Proclaim O Prophet: This is the truth from your Lord; then let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve. We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire which covers them like a canopy (18:30).

For the rest of your post, Angela, I just would like to add that we human beings were created to worship God. That is the sole purpose of creation. That is the reason why you see people (except for some exception) worship some kind of God in this whole world. Because this whole universe could only be created by One God, who created the furthest of the stars, or the tiniest of our veins. It would be impossible to have different Gods that are being worshipped by Hindus, or Jews or Christians or Muslims. Impossible! The only difference is that while some religion worship God thru a creation of His, some worship Him Directly without any intervention.

This Creator of the Whole Universe, This Supreme Being is also the Most Merciful. And in His Mercy He had brought down prophets and messengers with holy scriptures as guides to all human Being. And the only human being that is most perfect was Muhammad Salallahualaihiwassalam. In his actions and his words, we can find the perfect examples of a human being that we cannot find in other prophets. I know you will disagree with me about this, but this could be debated on.

On a side note, Nur, I know you live in Singapore, but aren't you Egyptian by birth?

I am sorry to dissappoint you that I am not an Egyption by birth. I am born and bred a Malay Singaporean. A race that is natural to South East Asia like Malaysia, Indonesia and Singapore. A wife and a working mother of two teenagers. As a wife and a working mum, I am quite busy, but for the love of spreading truth, I try to find time to log on to forums like this.

By the way, I am wondering why are you asking this question. That is if you do not mind me questioning?

Got to go. Today is Sunday, I have a wedding to attend to.

Salam.

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 16 November 2008 at 6:15am

Angela wrote:

You're right Hayfa, in many places this is acceptable. However, it reality it is not. Its one thing I do still like about my Church. They focus on modesty and chastity. While, its important for couples to learn about each other and learn if they are compatible, its highly suggested that dates are done within groups and that couples avoid being in situations that can lead to breaking the Law of Chasity as it is called in our Church.

I think that our focus on Eternal Partnerships gives us a different view on courtship. If you know you're stuck with the person for time and all eternity, you want to make sure you like the person. That's why active mormons have a 75% success rate in marriage compared to the less than 50% for other Americans.

And for "active" Mormons having a 24% divorce rate, Muslim men and women have about a 31% divorce rate.

Covering oneself is only on aspect of a multi-faceted lifestyle. Nur brings up Rebekkah...

In the time of Rebbekkah, if a man was found guilty of rape, his punishment was to marry the victim. Women were not allowed to sit upon the furniture and had to sequester themselves during their period and priests could not marry divorcees or widows because they had to have a virgin. These laws do not apply to Christians, only the ultra Orthodox Jews.

One part of Christianity that is not focused on by Muslims is the repentance of sinners.

In Islam, repentance does not matter except in the final judgement. A fornicator will be lashed even if they repented or an adulterer stoned. This is seen as a mercy because being punished in this life means they won't be punished in the next.

However, in Christianity, people can repent and turn away from sin. With sincere repentence, your sin is forgiven and forgotten by the Lord. Sincere repentence also carries a condition of not repeating the sin. Thus, if a person falls into sinful behavior there is always hope they will repent and return to the fold of the obedient and believing.

We also have the concept of freewill and freechoice. If a Christian choses not to be Christian anymore, it is on their immortal soul. The Christian community will pray for their return and for their soul, but there is no specific punishment (save shunning in certain communities like the Amish) for apostacy. If they choose to return, this is a celebrated thing and they are in most cases accepted back with love and forgiveness.

The kind of stringent rules that require veiling and "purdah" go against these freewill and repentance concepts. If a woman chooses to cover herself more or less, its her choice. If a man chooses to honor his wife or cheat on her, its his choice. They cannot choose the consequences of these choices. A woman might be mocked for her revealing clothing or her frumpy clothing. A many might be divorced by his wife for his infidelity. But in the end, its their choice, responsibility and burden.

The largest problem with Western "society" is lack of active participation in religion and the control of fringe groups in the media. People here don't even know their own religion and because of that, they do not understand what they profess to believe.

Patty and I are both active participants in our respective Churches. Our Churches are also strict and heirarchical. Her Pope and my Prophet give defined direction on what is and what is not a sin. We have sources, books and scholars that we can refer to if we have questions. Her priest can advise her like my bishop. But, there are many "Christians" out there that were baptized as a baby, celebrate the holidays and their bibles sit on the shelf (if they own one) and it collects dust.

There are also the "born again" evangelical Christians that teach simply accepting Christ as your Savior and Redeemer is all that you need to do to get into heaven. This is a false teaching but is very popular with people who don't want to have to think about what their actions will bring.

For these types of people, covering their head will not stop them. It will only make them less brazen. Sin never goes away, it just slinks back into the shadows and corrupts from there.

On a side note, Nur, I know you live in Singapore, but aren't you Egyptian by birth?

Outstanding post and explainations, Angela!

The only thing I might add is that once a very long time ago I dated an evangelical (Apostolic) man. I learned from him and the two times I visited their church they are actually very much AGAINST sinning after you "accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior." They do feel if you sin against God and/or the 10 Commandments you are out of the grace of God and would go to Hell if you die without repenting of your sins. They apparently sin a lot because they were always going down in front of the church to the altar to "repent of their sins." And they really believe clothing inappropriately is a BIG sin....these women never, for any reason wear slacks or even trim their hair. They do not wear short sleeve shirts even. So even though they are Bible literalists, they are also very committed to preaching the "wages of sin is death", meaning eternal loss of your soul and a place in Heaven.

Again, I agree with your post, and am glad to see it describes our close similarities in our priests and our bishops. I believe we are all very devoted and sincere in trying to worship God and follow His will.

Respectfully yours,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 16 November 2008 at 4:24pm

honeto wrote:

Patty,

And by the way searching through I did find a verse in the OT that does command:

1 corinthians 11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

Hasan

Hello Hasan,

I would first just want to point out that Corinthians is in the NT of the Christian Bible. That being said, I have so much to say on this topic, but I do it very poorly much of the time, so I am going to post a link here for you to follow. I think it may explain my beliefs better than I can myself. It may be of some help to you in trying to understand my faith. I would like to say that NEVER would I do anything which I feel in my heart, soul, and conscience contradicts the teachings of Jesus Christ (who in my religion is God, i.e., the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.) Many verses were cultural traditions at that time. We do have to be very careful.....VERY careful not to allow the Evil One to deceive us in today's world. I search my conscience and pray many times a day. God knows what is in my heart, and how deeply devoted I am to him. I do not worship man in any way.....only God.

Peace be with you,

Patty

http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/12/chapel-veil-veiling-or-head-covering.html - http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2007/12/chapel-veil-veiling-or-head-covering.html

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 16 November 2008 at 6:27pm

I am sorry to dissappoint you that I am not an Egyption by birth.

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 16 November 2008 at 6:40pm

Nazarene wrote:

i may be covering old ground with my reply. i haven't read all replies to this post. and i don't mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. but on the topic of women covering thier heads, my great aunt was amish. i never ever seen her with out her bonet head covering. women other than nuns cover their heads in the christain world yet nobody chastizes them, thier husbends or thier faith for that fact.
peace
leland

Hello Nazarene,

I love the Amish people. I grew up down the road from several Amish familes, and they were WONDERFUL people. But, sadly, it is untrue that no one chastizes them. There were plenty of people who spoke rudely about them, and felt they were a "cult", which of course they were NOT. During my lifetime I have seen that there are some folks who just cannot accept anyone else's faith or religion. I know I am far from perfect, but if an individual is trying very hard, with all their might, to serve and please God.....why not leave them alone? It's called religious tolerance. I don't expect to convert anyone to my faith, and I try not to criticize other's faiths (I may slip up on that one occasionally), but it is wrong and rude to belittle another person's faith. That's just my opinion.

God's Peace,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 November 2008 at 5:24pm

Patty,

thanks for pointing out that my quote was from NT and not OT.

A couple of more interesting questions: how come the catholic priests and clergy cover their heads with those skull caps?

1 Corinthians 11:4"Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head."

Also on the website on the link you sent there is a image representing the Virgin Mary, underneath it says " Mother of God".

So you do believe that Virgin Mary as Mother of God?

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 17 November 2008 at 6:15pm

honeto wrote:

Patty,

thanks for pointing out that my quote was from NT and not OT.

A couple of more interesting questions: how come the catholic priests and clergy cover their heads with those skull caps?

1 Corinthians 11:4"Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head."

Also on the website on the link you sent there is a image representing the Virgin Mary, underneath it says " Mother of God".

So you do believe that Virgin Mary as Mother of God?

Hasan

Hi Hasan,

In answer to your question regarding the verse in I Corinthians, this is what I have to respond to your question of this passage by St. Paul:

During the course of history there were times when it was common for men, and even clerics, to wear their hair long; and none felt that St. Paul�s words considering the practice a disgrace applied to them.

Likewise, liturgical norms tell bishops to keep their skullcaps on during some of the prayers during Mass, and they may use the mitre while preaching, without falling under St. Paul�s injunction that this practice brings shame upon his head. The norms, however, do ask him to remove his head covering for the Eucharistic Prayer and when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed.

As far as Mary being the Mother of God, Yes I do believe she is the Mother of God, because as a Catholic I believe in the Holy Trinity. In the Trinity, there are not three separate Gods as many mistakenly think we believe......there are three totally unique entities, which join together to form ONE God. There is God, the first person of the Trinity. Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, and the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity. These three unite to form the triune Godhead.

Based on my belief, and this is also the belief of most Protestants, I would say, yes, I do believe Mary is the Mother of God. But she is in no way equal to God, nor do we pray to her or anyone other than God (which includes Jesus.) We "ask" Mary to pray for us. We petition her to "go to her son and intercede to Him on our behalf." We do this because she is "blessed", as is stated in the Gospel of St. Luke, which is where the Ave Maria, or Hail Mary originates. It is quite like me asking a friend to pray for me when I am having medical testing or surgery performed. I am not praying to the friend to heal me, I am only requesting that my friend pray (to God) to help me through my ordeal.

I hope this is of some interest and help to you.

Patty

-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 4:36am

Just a simple question. Who did Adam, Abraham, Moses prayed to before God The Triune were born?

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 11:13am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Just a simple question. Who did Adam, Abraham, Moses prayed to before God The Triune were born?

Hi Nur,

People from the times of the Old Testament prayed to God, but they knew (it was revealed to them), that a Messiah would be born. They were fully aware that He was coming in the future.

Peace to you,

Patty

-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 3:37pm

PattyaMainer wrote:

...As far as Mary being the Mother of God, Yes I do believe she is the Mother of God, because as a Catholic I believe in the Holy Trinity. In the Trinity, there are not three separate Gods as many mistakenly think we believe......there are three totally unique entities, which join together to form ONE God. There is God, the first person of the Trinity. Jesus, the second person of the Trinity, and the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Holy Trinity. These three unite to form the triune Godhead.

To Patty

Let us look at Mark 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is, Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." If trinity was a valid belief, then Mark 12:29 would have said "God is three in one".

Visit http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/is_the_trinity_logically_coherent_in_light_of_biblical_teachings_ - Is the Trinity Logically Coherent In Light of Biblical Teachings?

http://www.call-to%20monotheism.com/is_the_trinity_logically_coherent_in_light_of_biblical_teachings_ - http://www.call-to monotheism.com/is_the_trinity_logically_coherent_in_light_of_biblical_teachings_

PattyaMainer wrote:

Based on my belief, and this is also the belief of most Protestants, I would say, yes, I do believe Mary is the Mother of God. But she is in no way equal to God, nor do we pray to her or anyone other than God (which includes Jesus.) We "ask" Mary to pray for us. We petition her to "go to her son and intercede to Him on our behalf." We do this because she is "blessed", as is stated in the Gospel of St. Luke, which is where the Ave Maria, or Hail Mary originates. It is quite like me asking a friend to pray for me when I am having medical testing or surgery performed. I am not praying to the friend to heal me, I am only requesting that my friend pray (to God) to help me through my ordeal.

I hope this is of some interest and help to you.

Patty

You should directly ask God without any intermediarier.

Visit

Mary Worship?

A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html - http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 3:46am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Dear Nur, my Church believes all other Christians have fallen away from the truth and that we are the only correct Church. So in a way, the other sects of Christianity can be non-Universal, they are fallen and astray. You can say the same about Islam. Sunni, Sufi, Salafi, Shia, Ismaili.... Scholars giving out opinions that are contradictory.... It is human failing to want to interpret God's word for one's own desires. That's why I am blessed to have a Prophet always at the head of my Church to keep us on the right path.

Covering oneself is only on aspect of a multi-faceted lifestyle. Nur brings up Rebekkah...In the time of Rebbekkah, if a man was found guilty of rape, his punishment was to marry the victim. Women were not allowed to sit upon the furniture and had to sequester themselves during their period and priests could not marry divorcees or widows because they had to have a virgin. These laws do not apply to Christians, only the ultra Orthodox Jews.

Well, this is such a tricky question. Jesus came and brought a new law. Therefore, only the testaments that came after are specific to the Christians. You have to understand. Unlike the Quran who has one Revelator and was handed down by one Prophet. The Bible covers 3000+ years and many different Prophets. A large portion of it was kept in Oral Tradition for centuries before it was placed to the written word and even much of that has been lost in translator, corrupted over time or even whole portions have been lost. The 66 books of the Bible you see today are 66 different books gathered together and decided on by a bunch of old priests. Its not the entirety of the word and its merit was not necessarily divine. They even decided which versions of the Books made it in and destroyed all others. None of these men were Prophets. The "Bible" is not considered to be flawless by most intellectuals.
My Church believes this was part of the reason that the other Churches fell from the true ways and why we have our Book of Mormon. It was preserved by the Hand of God and brought forth by our Prophet Joseph Smith. We refer to that for the final say on our laws because its considered more pure. Thus, You will get a completely different answer from me on this matter than other Christians.

We also have the concept of freewill and freechoice. If a Christian choses not to be Christian anymore, it is on their immortal soul. The Christian community will pray for their return and for their soul, but there is no specific punishment (save shunning in certain communities like the Amish) for apostacy.

If they choose to return, this is a celebrated thing and they are in most cases accepted back with love and forgiveness.

In response to the paragraph above, I would like to quote from http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/2.html -

Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 3:49am

I would like to point out here that my Church has rejected the Trinity. And all Prophets have always prayed to Heavenly Father. We do accept Jesus as the Son of God, however, we do not believe he was God Incarnate. Another reason "traditional" Christians reject our Christianity.

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 3:56am

Hi Nur,

People from the times of the Old Testament prayed to God, but they knew (it was revealed to them), that a Messiah would be born. They were fully aware that He was coming in the future.

Peace to you,

Patty

Yes. I believe that the people of old times prayed to God. The God of the whole universe that created the first person Adam till the last person on earth and the whole of the universe.

Each and everyone of us were born to worship a God, some kind of God, even people from the middle of Amazon or Africa, they knew that there is a Supreme Being that created us, that has power of us, that control our lives.

I believe the reason we are born into this earth was to worship God. Spiritually, our relationship with God is similar. I mean, the experience of His nearness, His spiritual connection with our souls, are similar. There is not much difference in the emotion or the feeling of His nearness. I know you love God, same like me, we love God. Our connection with Him is true, no one can deny that.

The only difference is that some worship The Creator directly, while others worship Him thru a creation of His.

Another question. Why is the Messiah sent for?

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 4:20am

WEll we went from hair covering and religious aspects in it to the trinity... hmmm

never a dull moment

You know back in the 50s my mom met the pope at the Vatican. He wore this lacey thing on her head.. its actually a funny picture to see... lol

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 4:29am

Mansoor_ali wrote:

To Patty

Let us look at Mark 12:29 "The first of all the commandments is, Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." If trinity was a valid belief, then Mark 12:29 would have said "God is three in one".

Visit http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/is_the_trinity_logically_coherent_in_light_of_biblical_teachings_ - Is the Trinity Logically Coherent In Light of Biblical Teachings?

I hope this is of some interest and help to you.

Patty

You should directly ask God without any intermediarier.

Visit

Mary Worship?

A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine

Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html - http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html

Dear Ali,

I have just said our Lord is ONE Lord. I am a wife, mother and grandmother.....but I am one human being. Let's be a little realistic for a change here. We could conceivably discuss the Holy Trinity for years, and it won't make one iota of difference in what you believe or what I believe. I understand the Trinity and have FAITH that it is true. You do not. We simply disagree on this doctrine.

You should not tell me what I should do. I DO pray directly to Our Lord and God. I also choose to ask others to please pray for me. We often hear where we have been asked to "pray for the victims and their family of (for instance) earthquakes or floods, etc. That is exactly the same thing. Why not just pray directly to God? Because there is POWER in prayers! Jesus says in the Bible, "where TWO OR MORE are gathered together (in prayer) in my name, there am I in the midst of them." So I hope you are not assuming I am a lazy Catholic and only ask others to pray for me. Of course I pray directly to my beloved God myself.

Spare me the story of a nun who left her faith. I have known them and read their pathetic books many times. It is sad that they choose to make money this way. But, Ali, we all need to realize that the Evil One is very much alive and well on planet earth....and he will try anyway he can to deceive, mislead, and steal the souls of anyone he possibly can. This trash is a perfect example.

God's Peace to You Always,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 4:41am

Hayfa wrote:

WEll we went from hair covering and religious aspects in it to the trinity... hmmm

never a dull moment

You know back in the 50s my mom met the pope at the Vatican. He wore this lacey thing on her head.. its actually a funny picture to see... lol

Who wore what on whose head, Hayfa? lol What is it that you feel makes it funny? I am confused on this one.

You're right though......we can certainly jump around on these threads, can't we? Kind of like we all have a certain amount of attention deficit disorder....and I am probably one of the worst offenders.

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 5:06am

Dear Nur, my Church believes all other Christians have fallen away from the truth and that we are the only correct Church. So in a way, the other sects of Christianity can be non-Universal -

I think that is a bit too self-righteous right?

Angela, first and for most, whether we are Sunnis, Sufis, Salafis, Shias or Ismailis, the basic concept of the first pillar of Islam of LAILA HAILALLAH MUHAMMADURASULULLAH - That there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger - never change, never falters. That is the basic Aqidah or Faith. That is the gateway to Islam. Shariah or laws may change under extreme cases depending on the situation of a person. For example when one cannot stand due to illness, one can pray while sitting down. When one is on a long journey during fasting month, he or she can leave the fasting but have to repay after the fasting month. Allah�s law can fit anytime or anyplace on earth.

My Church believes this was part of the reason that the other Churches fell from the true ways and why we have our Book of Mormon. It was preserved by the Hand of God and brought forth by our Prophet Joseph Smith.

I find it skeptical that all the prophets came from near or around the centre of the Earth that is in the Middle East, yet suddenly one emerged in another corner of the earth. Or that God could be very cruel (astaghfirullah - I seek forgiveness from Allah) leaving the original descendents of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad without a guide.

We refer to that for the final say on our laws because its considered more pure.

That can be debated on sometime.

Salam

-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 5:08am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Hi Nur,

People from the times of the Old Testament prayed to God, but they knew (it was revealed to them), that a Messiah would be born. They were fully aware that He was coming in the future.

Peace to you,

Patty

Yes. I believe that the people of old times prayed to God. The God of the whole universe that created the first person Adam till the last person on earth and the whole of the universe.

The only difference is that some worship The Creator directly, while others worship Him thru a creation of His.

Another question. Why is the Messiah sent for?

The Messiah's glory was told long before His birth in the Torah and the Zabur. Here are some of those verses:

He will conquer the serpent who is Satan.
(Genesis 3:15)

He will be the means of blessing to all nations.
(Genesis 22:18) (2000 BC)

He will be raised from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10) (1000 BC)

He will sit at the right hand of God.
(Psalm 110:1) (1000 BC)

He will reign as King forever.
(Psalm 89:35-37) (1000 BC)

And in the NT this verse is spoken by the "Messiah Himself.

After he rose from the dead, Jesus said to his discibles:

"...all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me, Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And he said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved the Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day; And that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name among all nations...."
(Luke 24:44-47)

The Koran says that the Torah (Old Testament) was confirmed by Jesus and by the Injil (New Testament):

   "And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)



The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--

"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)

Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.   They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.

I hope this answers your question, Nur. I am not a scholar and am very poor at explaining what I mean to say.

May the God of all Bless us All,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 6:24am

Nur_Ilahi wrote:

Dear Nur, my Church believes all other Christians have fallen away from the truth and that we are the only correct Church. So in a way, the other sects of Christianity can be non-Universal -

I think that is a bit too self-righteous right?

We refer to that for the final say on our laws because its considered more pure.

That can be debated on sometime.

Salam

I must say that I agree with you, Nur. I do know many Mormans, and they are very modest and sincere people......I have never found any other more kind than Mormans. However, I do not believe that Jesus' true word was suddenly discovered in the United States. Not at all. For one thing many physical symbols of Jesus Christ's ministry are still quite visible in the Middle East. The Bible is not a lie which was written by some old feeble men on drugs!!!! The monks and priests who labored intensively over the writings were very devoted to their task at hand and did not take any of it lightly. To believe one church is the ONLY church who "has it right" is quite honestly, "wrong." Jesus said there are many paths to Him, to God. Here is a little blurb from an Orthodox priest who was speaking in Rome about people around the world going to Heaven:

Orthodox bishop says nothing can destroy God's desire to forgive

ROME (CNS) -- God loves every human being, and there is nothing anyone can do that would destroy God's merciful desire to forgive, said Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion of Vienna and Austria. Speaking April 4 at the World Apostolic Congress on Mercy in Rome, Bishop Hilarion explored the teaching on divine mercy contained in the writings of the seventh-century hermit, St. Isaac the Syrian. The saint, he said, taught that "divine loves lies at the foundation of the universe, it governs the world, and it will lead the world to that glorious outcome when the latter will be entirely 'consumed' by the godhead." Bishop Hilarion said St. Isaac was opposed to the teaching, spread during his lifetime, that held that the majority of people would be punished in hell and only a few would make it to heaven. The saint was "convinced that, quite the contrary, the majority of people will find themselves in the kingdom of heaven and that only a few sinners will go to Gehenna, and even then only for the period of time which is necessary for their repentance and remission of sins," the bishop said. "Every created being is precious in God's eyes," Bishop Hilarion said. "If we turn away from God, he does not turn away from us."

Here is an article which I believe wholeheartedly states my faith's position on thos of Christian, Muslim, and Jewish faiths. I hope it will inspire you and give you hope. It has lifted my spirits emmensely. I am also offering the link for more information on the Catholic Church's opinion on the great love of God for all of us......ALL, not just one church.

Coming Together
as Brothers and Sisters
in the Faith of Abraham

by Friar Jack Wintz, O.F.M.

Q U I C K S C A N

http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj012804.asp#F1 - A Change of Attitude Toward Other Religions
http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj012804.asp#F2 - A Truer Expression of Islam
http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj012804.asp#F3 - Building a More Peaceful World

Is it possible to take a break from all the death and interreligious discord we experience in our world today, especially in Iraq, the Middle East and similar places of conflict? Yes, I believe it is possible�and much needed! Such a break recently took place at the Vatican on January 17, in the form of a "Concert for Reconciliation." The concert, which was a real sign of hope, brought together Christians, Muslims and Jews in an atmosphere of peace, harmony and mutual respect, with performers and spectators from the three faiths.

Gilbert Levine conducted the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra and a massive chorus with participants from Pittsburgh; London; Ankara, Turkey; and Krakow, Poland. The program started off with the world premiere of "Abraham," a motet commissioned for the occasion. Seated on either side of Pope John Paul II were a prominent rabbi and an imam, both of Rome. Also present from various foreign nations were other leaders and representatives of the three faiths.

At the end of the concert, John Paul II urged that all of us who trace our faith back to Abraham "must find within ourselves the courage for peace....Jews, Christians and Muslims," the pope added, "cannot accept that the earth be afflicted by hatred, [or] that humanity would remain involved in wars without end....Today one feels a pressing need for a sincere reconciliation among believers in one God. " The pope also said to those present: "The hope we express is that people will be purified of the hatred and evil that continually threaten peace and that they will learn to reach out to each other with hands that know no violence but are ready to offer aid and comfort to those in need."

http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj012804.asp - http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj012804.asp

May we all find peace through our religions,

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 November 2008 at 3:48pm

Hi,

as the talk shifts from woman's head covering to promotion of peace, I must say that from what we know of the world so far, peace as what it means does not seem to be visible in sight. It may not be meant in the sense we all have been thinking. And thus we are setting on wrong expectations.

Injustices, aggressions, killings and misery continues on for whatever reasons and motives, God knows best and has the account of All.

I believe that peace has to do with the self and achieving peace is a personal goal because at the end it is the individual who will be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions. So, if a person has figured that way out he/she feels at peace within him/herself. Because the whole world in that person's life span is between the day he/she took the first breath and the day he/she took the last one.

I believe in peacefully sharing this planet, but I must say that I don't believe that an athiest, a fire worshipper, a pagan, or one who believe in more than one God, and the one who believes in One God is going to all achieve the same, niether they are same. By saying we all are right none of them will either achieve peace for themselves nor for others, niether in this life nor after this.

And to me it seems the purpose of life to find or correct my course and direction and help others to see it too as a duty before I take my last breath.

Now as far staying with the topic, Patty what about that quote where men are not to cover, yet I see many Catholic men with the Church do cover??

Hasan

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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 20 November 2008 at 4:26pm

honeto wrote:

Hi,

Injustices, aggressions, killings and misery continues on for whatever reasons and motives, God knows best and has the account of All.

And to me it seems the purpose of life to find or correct my course and direction and help others to see it too as a duty before I take my last breath.

Now as far staying with the topic, Patty what about that quote where men are not to cover, yet I see many Catholic men with the Church do cover??

Hasan

Hi Hasan,

As far as obtaining peace in this life goes, I leave it to God....not many gods, but the God of Abraham who created all people and all on earth, and all in the universe. It is far beyond me to say more.

Regarding your concern about Catholic men who do cover, I can explain this: Catholic men who are not priests, bishops, deacons, cardinals, or the pope are called laity. They do not cover at all in church....no more than they would wear a hat inside a home (which in our culture is considered rude for men to do.) If you re-read my former post carefully, you will see the "religious", bishops, cardinals, etc., do NOT wear head covering while saying the prayers or during some of the more sacred times during the mass, and THAT is what St. Paul speaks of in I Corinthians if you read it closely.

Hasan, I just want you to know that I respect you for taking a stand for what you believe, even though we may differ in what we believe somewhat. That takes great courage. In your heart I know that you are doing what God has told you to do, and I am sure you are very favored and loved by Him.

Patty

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."

Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 4:57am

Hi Patty,

You quote from the Quran - I find it very amazing.

"And we sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious."
(Surah No. 5 Al Ma'Idah:46)

The Koran also exhorts to believe in the Biblical verses given long ago--

"O you who believe, believe in God and ...the book that was revealed from before."
(Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:136)

Patty, there is another verse in the Quran that says -

3:78. There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

Simply put, the Messiah was sent as the sacrificial Lamb of God......the redeemer who died as the ultimate sacrifice to cleanse ALL men from their sins, if they repent and believe.

Patty, sacrificing a human being is not like sacrificing a lamb. From my limited knowledge, only satanic cults offer human as a sacrifice. (Like Zionism). It is difficult for me to swallow that The God, Most Merciful and Most Loving request a sacrifice of His beloved servant. It is against or contradictory to His attribute of Most Merciful right? Jesus dying on a cross, so helpless, so pathetic, so pitiful contradicts God�s attribute of Will and Power.

They MUST turn away from their sins to be worthy of Heaven and the beatific vision after their deaths.

That is easier said than done Patty. The Creator of the Whole Universe, I believe loves all human beings so much that He called Himself Most Forgiving. He created us with the strengths and weaknesses. There are ways of redeeming ourselves from our daily sins if we repent with honesty and sincerity.

I must say that I agree with you, Nur. I do know many Mormans, and they are very modest and sincere people......I have never found any other more kind than Mormans.

I do not deny that there are Mormons who are kind. In fact there are more good people than bad people in this whole wide world. That is one example of God�s Mercy.

However, I do not believe that Jesus' true word was suddenly discovered in the United States. Not at all. For one thing many physical symbols of Jesus Christ's ministry are still quite visible in the Middle East. -

Oh How true you are. Same with Islam. There is a stone near Kaaba which had an imprint of Prophet Ibrahim�s footstep.

The Bible is not a lie which was written by some old feeble men on drugs!!!! The monks and priests who labored intensively over the writings were very devoted to their task at hand and did not take any of it lightly.

But sad to say, the Bible was written after a few hundred years of Jesus� birth. Along the way, there were teachings which were lost or being manipulated by the hands of some untrustworthy priests.

To believe one church is the ONLY church who "has it right" is quite honestly, "wrong." Jesus said there are many paths to Him, to God.

We humans are born to find God - that is natural, what Islam calls Fitrah. We know what our destination is - God! However there are many paths to Him. Some very long winded, some so full of hurdles, some direct, but also full of obstacles. He, God the Creator of the Whole Universe, created many paths to Him, but He, due to His Mercy, had created one which is simple and direct to Him. That is our responsibility, to find this direct path to Him.

A female sufi saint, Rabiatul �Adawiyah had said -

You talk about loving God while you disobey Him;
I swear by my life that this is something very strange..
If you were truthful in your love, you would obey Him,
For a lover obeys whom he loves.

So, Patty and Angela, if you see a Muslim who puts on a hijab, look at it in another perspective - it is for the Lover to the Beloved.

Salam (Peace)

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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 6:27am